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Necromancer76
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on 2/12/2020, 7:01 am
@Shioz wrote:Drawing up such a top is a pointless exercise. Even an attempt to make the top 5 so that it has at least some claim to objectivity can hardly succeed, no matter how knowledgeable you are. A better solution would be to create a tier list.
It is a tier list. And obviously there is no objective placement with the exception of the number 1 spot. It's both for fun and to illustrate which characters are close to who. Bane and Malgus are certainly in the same tier, just like Dooku and Starkiller. That kind of thing.
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on 2/12/2020, 7:09 am
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Shioz wrote:Drawing up such a top is a pointless exercise. Even an attempt to make the top 5 so that it has at least some claim to objectivity can hardly succeed, no matter how knowledgeable you are. A better solution would be to create a tier list.
It is a tier list. And obviously there is no objective placement with the exception of the number 1 spot. It's both for fun and to illustrate which characters are close to who. Bane and Malgus are certainly in the same tier, just like Dooku and Starkiller. That kind of thing.
number 1 is about as arguable as any other spot, given the fact that krayt exists, as does Kun's spirit.
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on 2/12/2020, 7:38 am
@Necromancer76 These are some objective facts you're not taking into account. I'll name some more if they come to mind.

  1. Valkorion and Revan aren't Sith, unless you specifically mean Darth Revan and vanilla Vitiate
  2. Darth Malak is above Exar Kun.
  3. Darth Marr is probably above Darth Nox.
  4. The second Emperor's Wrath is above Darth Nox.
  5. I'd nominate Darth Andeddu somewhere near Darth Bane (they had a pretty contested battle of wills).

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Azronger
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on 2/12/2020, 7:39 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Shioz wrote:Drawing up such a top is a pointless exercise. Even an attempt to make the top 5 so that it has at least some claim to objectivity can hardly succeed, no matter how knowledgeable you are. A better solution would be to create a tier list.
It is a tier list. And obviously there is no objective placement with the exception of the number 1 spot. It's both for fun and to illustrate which characters are close to who. Bane and Malgus are certainly in the same tier, just like Dooku and Starkiller. That kind of thing.
number 1 is about as arguable as any other spot, given the fact that krayt exists, as does Kun's spirit.

Palpatine is stated to be more powerful than any Sith after him, so it's certainly much less arguable than most positions.

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on 2/12/2020, 7:57 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Shioz wrote:Drawing up such a top is a pointless exercise. Even an attempt to make the top 5 so that it has at least some claim to objectivity can hardly succeed, no matter how knowledgeable you are. A better solution would be to create a tier list.
It is a tier list. And obviously there is no objective placement with the exception of the number 1 spot. It's both for fun and to illustrate which characters are close to who. Bane and Malgus are certainly in the same tier, just like Dooku and Starkiller. That kind of thing.
number 1 is about as arguable as any other spot, given the fact that krayt exists, as does Kun's spirit.
Sheev has numerous statements placing him in the number 1 spot and has scaling and numerous feats backing it up, with force storms being just one example.
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on 2/12/2020, 8:02 am
@Azronger wrote:@Necromancer76 These are some objective facts you're not taking into account. I'll name some more if they come to mind.

  1. Valkorion and Revan aren't Sith, unless you specifically mean Darth Revan and vanilla Vitiate
  2. Darth Malak is above Exar Kun.
  3. Darth Marr is probably above Darth Nox.
  4. The second Emperor's Wrath is above Darth Nox.
  5. I'd nominate Darth Andeddu somewhere near Darth Bane (they had a pretty contested battle of wills).

-What places Marr above Nox? I thought Nox by SoR would have surpassed him by then taking into account their respective performances against Revan.

-Darth Andeddu is in my Ancient Sith Lords list so I'm excluding him from this one. Although I was unaware he contested with Bane.

-So do you think Malak should go up or Exar Kun should go down on the list, taking into account Venamis and an average of middle-level Banite Sith being between them
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on 2/12/2020, 8:21 am
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Azronger wrote:@Necromancer76 These are some objective facts you're not taking into account. I'll name some more if they come to mind.

  1. Valkorion and Revan aren't Sith, unless you specifically mean Darth Revan and vanilla Vitiate
  2. Darth Malak is above Exar Kun.
  3. Darth Marr is probably above Darth Nox.
  4. The second Emperor's Wrath is above Darth Nox.
  5. I'd nominate Darth Andeddu somewhere near Darth Bane (they had a pretty contested battle of wills).

-What places Marr above Nox? I thought Nox by SoR would have surpassed him by then taking into account their respective performances against Revan.

-Darth Andeddu is in my Ancient Sith Lords list so I'm excluding him from this one. Although I was unaware he contested with Bane.

-So do you think Malak should go up or Exar Kun should go down on the list, taking into account Venamis and an average of middle-level Banite Sith being between them
Marr and Nox both get stomped by Revan lol. That makes no sense.
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on 2/12/2020, 8:36 am
@IG wrote:
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Azronger wrote:@Necromancer76 These are some objective facts you're not taking into account. I'll name some more if they come to mind.

  1. Valkorion and Revan aren't Sith, unless you specifically mean Darth Revan and vanilla Vitiate
  2. Darth Malak is above Exar Kun.
  3. Darth Marr is probably above Darth Nox.
  4. The second Emperor's Wrath is above Darth Nox.
  5. I'd nominate Darth Andeddu somewhere near Darth Bane (they had a pretty contested battle of wills).

-What places Marr above Nox? I thought Nox by SoR would have surpassed him by then taking into account their respective performances against Revan.

-Darth Andeddu is in my Ancient Sith Lords list so I'm excluding him from this one. Although I was unaware he contested with Bane.

-So do you think Malak should go up or Exar Kun should go down on the list, taking into account Venamis and an average of middle-level Banite Sith being between them
Marr and Nox both get stomped by Revan lol. That makes no sense.
You misunderstand, obviously Revan stomps them both. I just thought Nox did a little better because Marr was instantly trapped in a force maelstrom while Nox had to get him and the rest out via Light Revan
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on 2/12/2020, 8:46 am
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Shioz wrote:Drawing up such a top is a pointless exercise. Even an attempt to make the top 5 so that it has at least some claim to objectivity can hardly succeed, no matter how knowledgeable you are. A better solution would be to create a tier list.
It is a tier list. And obviously there is no objective placement with the exception of the number 1 spot. It's both for fun and to illustrate which characters are close to who. Bane and Malgus are certainly in the same tier, just like Dooku and Starkiller. That kind of thing.
number 1 is about as arguable as any other spot, given the fact that krayt exists, as does Kun's spirit.

Palpatine is stated to be more powerful than any Sith after him, so it's certainly much less arguable than most positions.
sure, if u mean sith that came before him. spirit kun and krayt came after. thats like saying that ragnos' title of strongest sith ever still stands, even though he is already dead, and long gone.
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on 2/12/2020, 10:38 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Shioz wrote:Drawing up such a top is a pointless exercise. Even an attempt to make the top 5 so that it has at least some claim to objectivity can hardly succeed, no matter how knowledgeable you are. A better solution would be to create a tier list.
It is a tier list. And obviously there is no objective placement with the exception of the number 1 spot. It's both for fun and to illustrate which characters are close to who. Bane and Malgus are certainly in the same tier, just like Dooku and Starkiller. That kind of thing.
number 1 is about as arguable as any other spot, given the fact that krayt exists, as does Kun's spirit.

Palpatine is stated to be more powerful than any Sith after him, so it's certainly much less arguable than most positions.
sure, if u mean sith that came before him. spirit kun and krayt came after. thats like saying that ragnos' title of strongest sith ever still stands, even though he is already dead, and long gone.

Re-read what I said, please.

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on 2/12/2020, 10:47 am
oh, i see. where is that stated?
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on 2/12/2020, 10:48 am
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Azronger wrote:@Necromancer76 These are some objective facts you're not taking into account. I'll name some more if they come to mind.

  1. Valkorion and Revan aren't Sith, unless you specifically mean Darth Revan and vanilla Vitiate
  2. Darth Malak is above Exar Kun.
  3. Darth Marr is probably above Darth Nox.
  4. The second Emperor's Wrath is above Darth Nox.
  5. I'd nominate Darth Andeddu somewhere near Darth Bane (they had a pretty contested battle of wills).

-What places Marr above Nox? I thought Nox by SoR would have surpassed him by then taking into account their respective performances against Revan.

-Darth Andeddu is in my Ancient Sith Lords list so I'm excluding him from this one. Although I was unaware he contested with Bane.

-So do you think Malak should go up or Exar Kun should go down on the list, taking into account Venamis and an average of middle-level Banite Sith being between them

I personally consider the Hero of Tython to be the canonical Outlander/Alliance Commander, so I don't apply expansion showings or growth to any of the other classes. In the vanilla game, Marr seemed very nonchalant about Nox's threats right after seeing them destroy Thanaton. He's also stated to be the most senior Dark Councillor after Act III, and we know that can't refer to biological age because Vowrawn is older than him, so it likely means he's the most powerful. His abilities have also been stated to be second to none in the Empire as of Rise of the Hutt Cartel, although that may not necessarily refer to combat, although it could given that both Jadus and Vitiate were MIA at the time.

Why are you excluding the ancients?

It's ultimately your list; I have very different opinions on where each Sith goes, but that's not objective fact. The only thing that's factual is Malak's superiority to Kun.

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on 2/12/2020, 10:49 am
1. Darth Sidious
2. Darish Vol
3. Darth Caedus
4. Darth Vader
5. Darth Krayt

Vitiate probably places somewhere in between, IDK where.
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on 2/12/2020, 10:52 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:oh, i see. where is that stated?

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern10

"Modern times" obviously encompasses the latest point in the timeline i.e. the Legacy era. Also note how practically every sentence in the Databank is written in past tense ("Over a century later, during the time of Roan Fel's empire, Darth Krayt was in possession of Andeddu's Holocron") except that one ("He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times").

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on 2/12/2020, 11:12 am
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:oh, i see. where is that stated?

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern10

"Modern times" obviously encompasses the latest point in the timeline i.e. the Legacy era. Also note how practically every sentence in the Databank is written in past tense ("Over a century later, during the time of Roan Fel's empire, Darth Krayt was in possession of Andeddu's Holocron") except that one ("He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times").

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern11
i can see how u came to that conclusion, albeit i disagree with the wording here, since he cant possibly be the mot powerful practitioner if he is dead. him being the most powerful is one thing, him being the most powerful practitioner is another. he cant practice (as he is dead), hence making him not eligible for said title. it does mean that he clearly competes for the spot of course. modern times doenst mean legacy times either. we know in star wars that 'times' cover loooong spans of time (the old republic is what, 3000 years long? the ancient era more than 2000 years long?). modern times couldve been from PT era all the way to cade's era, so it may not exactly mean right then and there during krayt's era. but like i said, it still makes him an option for it, i wont ignore that.

i really cant go against the idea that luke surpassed him (DE sheev) after his fight against shimrra (i believe was his name). Krayt had a clear intent on his side for being luke's opposite, a rival of sorts. this instantly makes puts him higher in my book than DE sheev. if u can convince me otherwise tho, im still listening.
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on 2/12/2020, 11:31 am
@Azronger wrote:
@Necromancer76 wrote:
@Azronger wrote:@Necromancer76 These are some objective facts you're not taking into account. I'll name some more if they come to mind.

  1. Valkorion and Revan aren't Sith, unless you specifically mean Darth Revan and vanilla Vitiate
  2. Darth Malak is above Exar Kun.
  3. Darth Marr is probably above Darth Nox.
  4. The second Emperor's Wrath is above Darth Nox.
  5. I'd nominate Darth Andeddu somewhere near Darth Bane (they had a pretty contested battle of wills).

-What places Marr above Nox? I thought Nox by SoR would have surpassed him by then taking into account their respective performances against Revan.

-Darth Andeddu is in my Ancient Sith Lords list so I'm excluding him from this one. Although I was unaware he contested with Bane.

-So do you think Malak should go up or Exar Kun should go down on the list, taking into account Venamis and an average of middle-level Banite Sith being between them

I personally consider the Hero of Tython to be the canonical Outlander/Alliance Commander, so I don't apply expansion showings or growth to any of the other classes. In the vanilla game, Marr seemed very nonchalant about Nox's threats right after seeing them destroy Thanaton. He's also stated to be the most senior Dark Councillor after Act III, and we know that can't refer to biological age because Vowrawn is older than him, so it likely means he's the most powerful. His abilities have also been stated to be second to none in the Empire as of Rise of the Hutt Cartel, although that may not necessarily refer to combat, although it could given that both Jadus and Vitiate were MIA at the time.

Why are you excluding the ancients?

It's ultimately your list; I have very different opinions on where each Sith goes, but that's not objective fact. The only thing that's factual is Malak's superiority to Kun.
Fair analysis on Marr, I'll keep it in mind. TOR stuff is pretty annoying to compare because you have people like Jadus (who is "second to the Emperor" and then loses a pretty pathetic fight). Plus Malgus never fits in to these statements yet he has better feats than both Marr and Jadus.

I excluded them because it's pretty difficult to compare Freedon Nadd, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, and the like to characters like Maul, Caedus, etc. just because they perform a lot of their feats in ghost form and/or are limited to hype. Comparing them to each other is hard enough so shoving them in with the rest would just be impossible to determine. I think at least. Maybe there is a better way but Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord from hype alone are in the top 5, with Nadd not far behind.

I'm open to hearing those opinions, I'm not 100% confident in all of my placements so they could easily be changed.
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on 2/12/2020, 12:25 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:oh, i see. where is that stated?

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern10

"Modern times" obviously encompasses the latest point in the timeline i.e. the Legacy era. Also note how practically every sentence in the Databank is written in past tense ("Over a century later, during the time of Roan Fel's empire, Darth Krayt was in possession of Andeddu's Holocron") except that one ("He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times").

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern11
i can see how u came to that conclusion, albeit i disagree with the wording here, since he cant possibly be the mot powerful practitioner if he is dead. him being the most powerful is one thing, him being the most powerful practitioner is another. he cant practice (as he is dead), hence making him not eligible for said title. it does mean that he clearly competes for the spot of course. modern times doenst mean legacy times either. we know in star wars that 'times' cover loooong spans of time (the old republic is what, 3000 years long? the ancient era more than 2000 years long?). modern times couldve been from PT era all the way to cade's era, so it may not exactly mean right then and there during krayt's era. but like i said, it still makes him an option for it, i wont ignore that.

i really cant go against the idea that luke surpassed him (DE sheev) after his fight against shimrra (i believe was his name). Krayt had a clear intent on his side for being luke's opposite, a rival of sorts. this instantly makes puts him higher in my book than DE sheev. if u can convince me otherwise tho, im still listening.

The databank is mostly in past tense, even when it talks about Krayt, and the definition of modern times is the latest point in the timeline, so it must by default extend up to the Legacy era. Which means that by the time the entry is written in-universe, Palpatine has never been surpassed or equaled in power by any Sith in modern times, Krayt included. That Palpatine is technically dead doesn't erase his status as a practitioner of Sith ways, even if he can't practice them currently. If I said that Mozart is the greatest composer in modern times (assuming, for the sake of the argument, that modern times encompasses the last 300 years), that statement would be entirely sensible and grammatically correct.

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on 2/12/2020, 12:31 pm
@Necromancer76 wrote:Fair analysis on Marr, I'll keep it in mind. TOR stuff is pretty annoying to compare because you have people like Jadus (who is "second to the Emperor" and then loses a pretty pathetic fight). Plus Malgus never fits in to these statements yet he has better feats than both Marr and Jadus.

The accolade for Jadus comes from a non-Force-sensitive, so take it as you will.

Malgus does fall under Marr's statements up until the vanilla game, although that has clearly changed with Onslaught.

I excluded them because it's pretty difficult to compare Freedon Nadd, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, and the like to characters like Maul, Caedus, etc. just because they perform a lot of their feats in ghost form and/or are limited to hype. Comparing them to each other is hard enough so shoving them in with the rest would just be impossible to determine. I think at least. Maybe there is a better way but Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord from hype alone are in the top 5, with Nadd not far behind.

You find them hard to compare but not any of the others? I'd be interested in how you came to your conclusions, then.

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on 2/12/2020, 12:35 pm
@Azronger Valk also declares that Jadus is "the best Sith" that his "empire has ever produced".
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on 2/12/2020, 1:04 pm
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:oh, i see. where is that stated?

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern10

"Modern times" obviously encompasses the latest point in the timeline i.e. the Legacy era. Also note how practically every sentence in the Databank is written in past tense ("Over a century later, during the time of Roan Fel's empire, Darth Krayt was in possession of Andeddu's Holocron") except that one ("He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times").

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern11
i can see how u came to that conclusion, albeit i disagree with the wording here, since he cant possibly be the mot powerful practitioner if he is dead. him being the most powerful is one thing, him being the most powerful practitioner is another. he cant practice (as he is dead), hence making him not eligible for said title. it does mean that he clearly competes for the spot of course. modern times doenst mean legacy times either. we know in star wars that 'times' cover loooong spans of time (the old republic is what, 3000 years long? the ancient era more than 2000 years long?). modern times couldve been from PT era all the way to cade's era, so it may not exactly mean right then and there during krayt's era. but like i said, it still makes him an option for it, i wont ignore that.

i really cant go against the idea that luke surpassed him (DE sheev) after his fight against shimrra (i believe was his name). Krayt had a clear intent on his side for being luke's opposite, a rival of sorts. this instantly makes puts him higher in my book than DE sheev. if u can convince me otherwise tho, im still listening.

The databank is mostly in past tense, even when it talks about Krayt, and the definition of modern times is the latest point in the timeline, so it must by default extend up to the Legacy era. Which means that by the time the entry is written in-universe, Palpatine has never been surpassed or equaled in power by any Sith in modern times, Krayt included. That Palpatine is technically dead doesn't erase his status as a practitioner of Sith ways, even if he can't practice them currently. If I said that Mozart is the greatest composer in modern times (assuming, for the sake of the argument, that modern times encompasses the last 300 years), that statement would be entirely sensible and grammatically correct.
i have some straight forward questions that i doubt will make u happy, but they simply here for the sake of discussion:

Do u view Krayt as a sort of counter part to Luke by FOTJ?

Do u believe that Luke surpassed DE Sheev by that point?
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on 2/12/2020, 1:07 pm
@Azronger wrote:


I excluded them because it's pretty difficult to compare Freedon Nadd, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord, and the like to characters like Maul, Caedus, etc. just because they perform a lot of their feats in ghost form and/or are limited to hype. Comparing them to each other is hard enough so shoving them in with the rest would just be impossible to determine. I think at least. Maybe there is a better way but Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord from hype alone are in the top 5, with Nadd not far behind.

You find them hard to compare but not any of the others? I'd be interested in how you came to your conclusions, then.
Sure, are you referring to characters specifically or in general? Overall, I just examined past versus threads and looked at the results of those. Then I put similar characters in a tier. So Revan and Caedus are around the same level, Dooku and Starkiller, Malgus and Bane, etc.
With the ancient sith lords (which I know is not a definitive term), it's difficult to compare them because many of them have no dueling feats at all or use swords. Ghost feats also typically don't translate directly to the character's power.
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on 2/12/2020, 1:28 pm
@IG wrote:@Azronger Valk also declares that Jadus is "the best Sith" that his "empire has ever produced".

Yeah but that's not necessarily referring to combat. You could argue it and Watcher Two's claim vindicate each other, though.

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on 2/12/2020, 1:30 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Azronger wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:oh, i see. where is that stated?

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern10

"Modern times" obviously encompasses the latest point in the timeline i.e. the Legacy era. Also note how practically every sentence in the Databank is written in past tense ("Over a century later, during the time of Roan Fel's empire, Darth Krayt was in possession of Andeddu's Holocron") except that one ("He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times").

Top 30 Most Powerful Sith Lords DRAFT - Page 2 Modern11
i can see how u came to that conclusion, albeit i disagree with the wording here, since he cant possibly be the mot powerful practitioner if he is dead. him being the most powerful is one thing, him being the most powerful practitioner is another. he cant practice (as he is dead), hence making him not eligible for said title. it does mean that he clearly competes for the spot of course. modern times doenst mean legacy times either. we know in star wars that 'times' cover loooong spans of time (the old republic is what, 3000 years long? the ancient era more than 2000 years long?). modern times couldve been from PT era all the way to cade's era, so it may not exactly mean right then and there during krayt's era. but like i said, it still makes him an option for it, i wont ignore that.

i really cant go against the idea that luke surpassed him (DE sheev) after his fight against shimrra (i believe was his name). Krayt had a clear intent on his side for being luke's opposite, a rival of sorts. this instantly makes puts him higher in my book than DE sheev. if u can convince me otherwise tho, im still listening.

The databank is mostly in past tense, even when it talks about Krayt, and the definition of modern times is the latest point in the timeline, so it must by default extend up to the Legacy era. Which means that by the time the entry is written in-universe, Palpatine has never been surpassed or equaled in power by any Sith in modern times, Krayt included. That Palpatine is technically dead doesn't erase his status as a practitioner of Sith ways, even if he can't practice them currently. If I said that Mozart is the greatest composer in modern times (assuming, for the sake of the argument, that modern times encompasses the last 300 years), that statement would be entirely sensible and grammatically correct.
i have some straight forward questions that i doubt will make u happy, but they simply here for the sake of discussion:

Do u view Krayt as a sort of counter part to Luke by FOTJ?

Do u believe that Luke surpassed DE Sheev by that point?

1. I don't think Krayt is Luke's direct equal, but he's strong enough not to be fodderized.

2. Luke's better than Sidious in the Control sphere but I'm not convinced on Alter or Sense.

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on 2/12/2020, 2:05 pm
@Azronger How can you have Andeddu near Bane but Malak with/near Bane?
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on 2/12/2020, 2:56 pm
@IG wrote:@Azronger How can you have Andeddu near Bane but Malak with/near Bane?

He thinks Andeddu grew and as far as I know he doesn't have Malak and Bane on the same tier
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