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The Dragon Of The West
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on February 9th 2020, 5:20 pm
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lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 5:21 pm
so yeah, u have nothing that points towards the fact that SK > vader. cool
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on February 9th 2020, 5:24 pm
What? I posted evidence (see the previous page), and the most you can respond with is quotes that don't definitively include SK, yet I'm the one without evidence? Piss off lol.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 5:26 pm
NotAA3 wrote:What? I posted evidence (see the previous page), and the most you can respond with is quotes that don't definitively include SK, yet I'm the one without evidence? Piss off lol.
u posted some stuff that talked about, or mentioned, or happened almost a decade before vader's prime, in which he grew A LOT while i posted quotes, that while arent definite, would still factually put SK below ANH vader.
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on February 9th 2020, 5:27 pm
Mace Windu.
The Dragon Of The West
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on February 9th 2020, 5:34 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd

I feel like pulling an MP, so here are some pretty colours:

u posted some stuff that talked about, or mentioned, or happened almost a decade before vader's prime, in which he grew A LOT while i posted quotes, that while arent definite, would still factually put SK below ANH vader.

Red text: Firstly, absolutely none of the material I posted takes place a decade before Vader's prime - there's like a 5-6 year time difference between TFU and ROTJ, and a 4-5 year time difference between TFU 2 and ROTJ. Secondly, I don't even get why you're citing Vader's growth, I never made the claim SK's feats against Vader circa TFU grant him scaling to Prime Vader, all I stated is that SK scales to that iteration of Vader which is a true enough claim.

Green text: Already covered. The fact that they would factually put SK below ANH Vader, if SK was included is irrelevant, because you cannot prove SK would fall under the accolade in the first place.
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on February 9th 2020, 5:42 pm
Mace Windu.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 5:44 pm
NotAA3 wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd

I feel like pulling an MP, so here are some pretty colours:

u posted some stuff that talked about, or mentioned, or happened almost a decade before vader's prime, in which he grew A LOT while i posted quotes, that while arent definite, would still factually put SK below ANH vader.

Red text: Firstly, absolutely none of the material I posted takes place a decade before Vader's prime - there's like a 5-6 year time difference between TFU and ROTJ, and a 4-5 year time difference between TFU 2 and ROTJ. Secondly, I don't even get why you're citing Vader's growth, I never made the claim SK's feats against Vader circa TFU grant him scaling to Prime Vader, all I stated is that SK scales to that iteration of Vader which is a true enough claim.

i was under the impression that TFU 2 took place 2 years before ANH, making it 7 years until ROTJ, so big mistake on my part there. I was also under the impression that u said that SK > Prime Vader, which is what i was trying to disprove, so another mistake on my part. I can 100% see Sk > TFU 2, but i can also see it the other way around, so i really dont care about it in this case.

Green text: Already covered. The fact that they would factually put SK below ANH Vader, if SK was included is irrelevant, because you cannot prove SK would fall under the accolade in the first place.

See, those quotes would only not apply to Sk in case he had either died, or if he wasnt in the galaxy anymore. Both are big, baseless assumptions that stem from nothing. U would have to prove one of those two things for the quote to not effect SK. And sorry to say, but u cant prove them.
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on February 9th 2020, 6:00 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd

i was under the impression that TFU 2 took place 2 years before ANH, making it 7 years until ROTJ, so big mistake on my part there.

Nah, it takes place like a year before at most.

I was also under the impression that u said that SK > Prime Vader, which is what i was trying to disprove, so another mistake on my part.

I do have SK above Prime Vader, but I never made a specific claim regarding the two in my post.

I can 100% see Sk > TFU 2, but i can also see it the other way around, so i really dont care about it in this case.

Why? As shown in my previous post, SK defeated a group of Force Users that could have "easily" overpowered Vader.

See, those quotes would only not apply to Sk in case he had either died, or if he wasnt in the galaxy anymore. Both are big, baseless assumptions that stem from nothing. U would have to prove one of those two things for the quote to not effect SK. And sorry to say, but u cant prove them.

You're the one making the claim SK would be included in the accolades, so it's up to you to prove it (you can't), not me to disprove it lol.
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on February 9th 2020, 6:02 pm
@Azronger wrote:Mace Windu. He has Vaapad and can thus operate at the same level he did against Palpatine by drawing on Malgus's rage.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 6:08 pm
1. k, thanks

2. yeah, nevermind this discussion then. u already put SK above someone far stronger than the vader SK originally fought. this is kinda pointless now. i could say "vader grew far stronger since then" and u would say "and SK was tired, so his full healthy self wouldve been much stronger as well". im not gonna keep doing this over and over lol

3. ill address the last part here- im assuming something that most people would assume, imo. i dont think that he died, nor that he suddenly disappeared from the galaxy. u think that either one of those two things happened. i dont have anything aside from my POV to prove my point, and neither do u, hence me stopping this right here? oh, and i only posted the quotes. the one who said they were invalid for _reasons_ was u. ur the one that has prove those reasons, not me
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on February 9th 2020, 6:09 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:3. ill address the last part here- im assuming something that most people would assume, imo. i dont think that he died, nor that he suddenly disappeared from the galaxy. u think that either one of those two things happened. i dont have anything aside from my POV to prove my point, and neither do u, hence me stopping this right here? oh, and i only posted the quotes. the one who said they were invalid for _reasons_ was u. ur the one that has prove those reasons, not me

I mean, being fair, what other assumptions are we left with when we don't see any trace of Starkiller left in the galaxy post TFU2? Lol.
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on February 9th 2020, 6:13 pm
@Syndiciate wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:3. ill address the last part here- im assuming something that most people would assume, imo. i dont think that he died, nor that he suddenly disappeared from the galaxy. u think that either one of those two things happened. i dont have anything aside from my POV to prove my point, and neither do u, hence me stopping this right here? oh, and i only posted the quotes. the one who said they were invalid for _reasons_ was u. ur the one that has prove those reasons, not me

I mean, being fair, what other assumptions are we left with when we don't see any trace of Starkiller left in the galaxy post TFU2? Lol.
well, yes lol not like plotholes like this exist all over the place tho. sedriss > dooku before dooku was made for example. or spirit kun ~ luke, making his alive self > Luke, which would make him about as strong as Sheev, which is impossible lol
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on February 9th 2020, 6:26 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd

2. yeah, nevermind this discussion then. u already put SK above someone far stronger than the vader SK originally fought. this is kinda pointless now. i could say "vader grew far stronger since then" and u would say "and SK was tired, so his full healthy self wouldve been much stronger as well". im not gonna keep doing this over and over lol

Sure, we can both cite our own explanations for our respective characters' performances, and yes, I agree nothing in TFU 2 allows SK to scale above ROTJ Vader. However, given that SK has better feats outside of the fight, leaving it ambiguous only favours SK imo.

3. ill address the last part here- im assuming something that most people would assume, imo. i dont think that he died, nor that he suddenly disappeared from the galaxy. u think that either one of those two things happened. i dont have anything aside from my POV to prove my point, and neither do u, hence me stopping this right here? oh, and i only posted the quotes. the one who said they were invalid for _reasons_ was u. ur the one that has prove those reasons, not me

I said they were invalid and did provide an explanation, that being that it's totally ambiguous whether SK is still alive as of the time of those quotes (and I'd wager not given that he's completely absent from the OT). Yes, neither of us can prove whether SK would be included in the quotes, but ambiguity only favours me, as you cannot use them to scale Vader above SK due to that unknown.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on February 9th 2020, 6:44 pm
NotAA3 wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd

2. yeah, nevermind this discussion then. u already put SK above someone far stronger than the vader SK originally fought. this is kinda pointless now. i could say "vader grew far stronger since then" and u would say "and SK was tired, so his full healthy self wouldve been much stronger as well". im not gonna keep doing this over and over lol

Sure, we can both cite our own explanations for our respective characters' performances, and yes, I agree nothing in TFU 2 allows SK to scale above ROTJ Vader. However, given that SK has better feats outside of the fight, leaving it ambiguous only favours SK imo.

i really gotta learn how to separate quotes like this lol... 

i agree. his feats are in fact better. actually, vader only great feats come from the TFU games lol him taking the explosion, him fighting galen, him whooping Kota, etc. Aside from that, he has some building level feats, and some skill feats here and there. Actually, the only things that lets people put vader as high as they do without looking into all his feats and accolades is prolly the TFU games. I dont think its ambiguous tho. Vader CAN replicate all of galen's earlier feats from the game, and at least copy them by the end. By TFU 2, he can replicate anything galen did, possibly even the explosive blast, and match Sk, meaning that he can also replicate some if not most of his feats. 

The only thing that we seem to disagree on here is how much stronger prime Vader is, and how strong a healthy SK is.


3. ill address the last part here- im assuming something that most people would assume, imo. i dont think that he died, nor that he suddenly disappeared from the galaxy. u think that either one of those two things happened. i dont have anything aside from my POV to prove my point, and neither do u, hence me stopping this right here? oh, and i only posted the quotes. the one who said they were invalid for _reasons_ was u. ur the one that has prove those reasons, not me

I said they were invalid and did provide an explanation, that being that it's totally ambiguous whether SK is still alive as of the time of those quotes (and I'd wager not given that he's completely absent from the OT). Yes, neither of us can prove whether SK would be included in the quotes, but ambiguity only favours me, as you cannot use them to scale Vader above SK due to that unknown.

He clearly wasnt even an idea in the OT. Actually, if u got to someone in 77 and told them "Vader is totally the guy to take multiple apprentices" he would laugh at ur face lol. 

As for the second part, iirc, the game developers say that Vader beats and escapes SK, and that Vader held back throughout most of the fight. A full on healthy SK, btw, against a possibly weakened Vader. I will say something- if this were to happen, and Vader killed SK, it would explain why he doenst exist in OT
KingofBlades
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on February 9th 2020, 7:24 pm
Revan
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on February 9th 2020, 7:59 pm
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In order to have Revan > Mace Windu, you basically have to argue that supremacy quotes are invalid. That hasn't actually been shown in a coherent way.
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on February 9th 2020, 8:01 pm
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@The Ellimist wrote:In order to have Revan > Mace Windu, you basically have to argue that supremacy quotes are invalid. That hasn't actually been shown in a coherent way.
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on February 9th 2020, 8:54 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:In order to have Revan > Mace Windu, you basically have to argue that supremacy quotes are invalid. That hasn't actually been shown in a coherent way.
Basically this. To argue Revan > Mace, you'd first have to argue Revan is ~/= Vitiate. You'd then have to argue Vitiate is close to ROTS Sidious, and then follow up by arguing how this puts him > Mace. Mace has every other advantage except esoteric abilities, which honestly I don't see being too much of a factor against him considering his accolades and how he's viewed within the Order.
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on February 9th 2020, 8:57 pm
Darish Vol. 

Way to much going for him.
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on February 9th 2020, 10:24 pm
Mace Windu also deflected Palpatine's TK even outside of vaapad.
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on February 10th 2020, 12:15 am
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EXAR KUN

First of all, the actual power levels of Exar Kun's domain are considerably vast:

Exhibit A: Tott Doneeta

Tott Doneeta manages to hold off a Ryloth heat storm with the Force:

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These heat storms have speeds of 500 kilometers an hour and a temperature of 300 degrees celcius:

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These things were immense:

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They can reduce a person to dust before they can collapse:

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Exhibit B: Nomi Sunrider

Aleema Keto and her cousin Satal, are chosen by Freedon Nadd over King Ommin as better apprentices:

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Ommin was a powerful sorceror, who could cast a shadow of corruption over Onderon and dominate the populace with the dark side:


Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:King Ommin rose to power in the same manner as his ancestors of the last three centuries: by dominating the populace of Onderon with the dark side.

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Ommin himself was strong enough to overpower Arca Jeth:
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Arca in turn overcame the dark taint of Freedon Nadd's sarcophagus and ended Queen Amanoa:

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These energies are not insignificant, the sarcophagus still has so much power that 50 years later, it is a significant site for the Sith Triumvirate:

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide wrote:Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can sense the power from this place. It's like the light abandoned it long ago. I fear the Sith shall be very strong here."

Queen Amanoa herself drove an entire army of Beast Riders and their mounts mad, noting the size of this army:

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NOTE: Each Beast-Lord maintains his own army, so do your own math on this one.

Aleema Keto and her weaker cousin Satal, had such power as they began to dabble in Sith magicks, that they corrupted the world of Cinnagar:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith Audiobook Pt.2 wrote:Satal Keto and his cousin Aleema, have begun to explore the magic of the Sith and have used it to corrupt their homeworld in the Empress Teta system.

Despite this power, Nomi destroys Aleema in telepathy, whether she's attacking or defending:

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Despite all of this power, Tott and Nomi, with the aid of Oss Willum, Cay Qel-Droma and Qrrl, are incapable of subduing Ulic Qel-Droma who focuses his power through an amulet, attacking omnidirectionally with Force lightning and telekinesis:

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Ulic famously stalemated Exar Kun, and Kun by this point had already displayed galactic scale feats:

The Essential Guide to Characters wrote:Nadd offered Kun a way to live, and to repair his broken body: if he embraced the dark side, he would be healed. The betrayal of light was not an easy one for Kun, but the desire to live was stronger. He accepted the dark side, his screams reaching out across the galaxy and creating ripples in the Force.
The New Essential Chronology wrote:Exar Kun let out a tremendous shriek that echoed across the galaxy, calling in despair upon Master Vodo, whom he had abandoned.

Ulic disappears for years after joining Exar Kun, where he gains tremendous power in the dark side:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Ulic was then confronted by another fallen Jedi, Exar Kun. As they engaged in a lightsaber battle, the Sith Amulets both Jedi wore began to glow, and they were visited by spirits of the Ancient Sith Lords who told them that Kun was the new Dark Lord of the Sith and Qel-Droma his first assistant. Years later, Ulic reappeared with tremendous dark side powers and set out to plunder and destroy large parts of the galaxy with a large and bloodthirsty army serving alongside Exar Kun.

Ulic then attacks Coruscant, but when faced with Vodo Siosk-Baas, his weapon is telekinetically torn from his grasp and his connection to the Force blocked:

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NOTE: I consider this a majority Vodo Siosk-Baas feat because the Jedi with him couldn't subdue Ulic alone, and almost died trying, and that was years before Ulic had grown far more powerful. Furthermore, it's said that Ulic would become equal to not more powerful than, the mightiest Jedi masters of the time; which Vodo is one of, indicating Ulic became equal to Vodo after Coruscant:

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Nadd foretold that Ulic would one day be a great Sith Lord, equal to the mightiest Jedi masters.

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With Ulic captured and in chains, Exar Kun arrives at his trial in the Senate where Kun hypnotises the entire Senate and maintains that whilst defeating Vodo, who is stated to stand 'no chance' against Kun's 'deep reserve of dark side power':

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:Ulic’s trial was interrupted by Exar Kun, who met his former Master face to face for the first time since his long descent into darkness. The two fought, and Vodo-Siosk Baas was no match for Exar Kun’s double-bladed lightsaber and deep reserve of dark side power. Vodo-Siosk perished, slain by his former apprentice.

After this, Exar Kun initially met his match against Ood Bnar, who taps the power of a Force nexus so strong it's implied that it prevents the utter and total destruction of the planet:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith wrote:Ood resists Kun's attempts to steal the lightsabers by undergoing a final metamorphosis, plunging roots into the ground and driving Kun back with a blast of power drawn from the depths of Ossus.

Unlikely Survival of Ossus Codex Entry wrote:Ossus still bears the scars of the Cron Supernova: its surface is a seared wasteland of rock and sand. But even this degree of desolation is shockingly mild; that the planet was not rendered into a charred ball of molten rock, or even obliterated completely, is nothing short of miraculous.
Little academic work has been put forward to explain this unlikely survival; only conjecture. The initial cause of the supernova was unnatural; perhaps this explains the unnatural results? Ossus was a stronghold of the Jedi; does the inherent life force of such a place make it more resistant to destruction?

Kun leaves Ossus with a wealth of artifacts and knowledge, stated to be more than he could ever need, and thus becomes far more powerful than any Jedi of the time, which includes Ood:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith wrote:Looking at all the precious artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use.

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.

Ood Bnar, of course, was capable of summoning the same power and taking out both Luke Skywalker and disintegrating Sedriss XL; a serious contender for Luke, at once:

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The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Several thousand years later on the planet Ossus, Bnar reawakened to help save Jem Ysanna, a young woman with powers in the Force. He ultimately sacrificed himself to destroy the evil Imperial Military Executor Sedriss.
...
The Executor was destroyed by the power of an ancient Jedi, Ood Bnar.

Noting that at this point, Executor Sedriss is even closer to Darth Vader's power than Jerec was, who already rivalled Vader's power:

Handbook 3 wrote:Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base.

Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II Game Manual wrote:His [Jerec's] embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's.

Exar Kun himself at this point is the most powerful Sith in history:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

Given Kun's power at this point naturally dwarfs that of any of the preceding Sith, he also scales majorly over the Sith Council who had already bestowed their power on Kun many years ago:

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This means that he scales above the same spirits who'd attacked and gravely injured Pre-ESB Darth Sidious, per Sheev's own admission:

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Prime Kun is also obviously more powerful than Marka Ragnos, who was more powerful than Darth Nihilus per Kreia who not only taught Nihilus the technique and how to consume worlds with it but had studied the Telos IV holocron stash and other vast sources such as the Trayus Academy knowledge which per Chris Avellone provides her with accurate estimations of the power of the ancient Sith:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith."

Kreia herself admits Nihilus is an entire magnitude beyond her in power:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

Kreia herself was capable of literally one-shotting the entire Jedi Council:

SWTOR Codex Entry wrote:Part of Kreia’s plan involved decimating the Jedi Order. On Dantooine, Kreia severed Masters Vrook Lmar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell from the Force, killing them within the Jedi Enclave.

Each of those masters were around the power of an amped Bastila Shan:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters."

Bastila Shan was capable of holding her own willpower against all of the corruptive apparatus; including torture by Force lightning, of Darth Malak for an entire week before succumbing:

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Furthermore, Kun's effects on the galaxy and cosmos at this point represented a 'torrent' of the dark side which only ended with him being sealed within the Temple of Yavin IV:

Exar Kun, Star Wars Databank wrote:Before Vader, before Maul, before Sidious... there was a Dark Lord of the Sith that cast a shadow of terror and destruction across the galaxy. The ancient forces of the Republic and the Jedi banded together to stop the torrent of the dark side, and bring an end to Exar Kun's rule.

His return from slumber and the later return of his predecessor in Marka Ragnos, caused the Force itself to 'seethe':

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties, starwars.com wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy. This latter event was not isolated. Some of the disciples of Ragnos had formerly been aligned with the dark sider Hethrir and his Empire Reborn, which had been defeated only a short time prior. Worse, soon after the encounter with Ragnos, the lifeless body of the reformed Sith acolyte Flint was found on Belderone: an ancient Jedi lightsaber in hand, a cauterized hole through his throat.
The Force seethed with the suggestion of a grand, sinister scheme.

Exar Kun's spirit, factually far weaker than he was in his living prime, was capable by itself of defeating Master Luke:

Champions of the Force wrote:Afraid to challenge the dark power that had been sufficient to warp other students and defeat Master Skywalker.

Who by this point is in his prime:

Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

I, Jedi wrote:When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.

I could go on, but Exar Kun would smash Malgus' face in and he wouldn't need tricks like Vaapad or anything to do it.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on February 10th 2020, 12:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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on February 10th 2020, 12:21 am
Mace Windu
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on February 10th 2020, 12:31 am
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@LadyKulvax: I would suggest telling us how any of that is better then Mace, Cilghal, or Revan, who are serious contenders against Kun.
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on February 10th 2020, 12:53 am
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Because Kun is undisputably beyond JA Luke who scales over each progressively earlier incarnation of himself. He scales up over the Sith Council who legitimately managed to cow pre-ESB Sidious. He scales so far above planetary TP, tanking heat storms and all the other stuff thrown around in here that it's beneath him. He has shown that he has massive effects on the Force itself. There's also a ton of other feats and scaling he has.

Instead, you could actually compare the feats Kun scales over and prove he doesn't match up here.
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