Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
avatar
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 1:12 am
There's also Luke saying she's much more powerful and her showing her superiority to Luke:

It was no good. Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat.


-

In the next instant, the girl went cartwheeling across the room. The blow had been so quick that Luke did not even realize Vestara had been struck until Abeloth’s tentacle retracted and began to twine itself around his forearm.


-


Abeloth countered, hissing in anger, and they hovered a hand span above the floor. A tremendous crack echoed down from the vaulted ceiling. They dropped again, hitting so hard that Luke’s breath left in a groan. Abeloth slammed down atop him, her single leg still wrapped around his, the stump of her arm driving harder into his throat. Something crunched in his larynx. His breath came in shallow, wheezy gasps, and the crushing hand of panic began to clench at his heart.
-



Luke was already on Abeloth, launching a vicious thrust kick. She took it like a durasteel wall, then her arm flew up to rake at his eyes.
-
He tried to continue the motion and bring it up to deliver a blast of Force energy, but Abeloth had already launched her own attack by then, delivering a bolt of Force lightning that blasted straight through the stranger into Luke.



-


[i]"I don't sense her at all," said Luke. "She's deliberately concealing herself."
[/i]


[i]-[/i]



Certain now that he was talking to the real Akanah—and only Akanah—Luke returned his lightsaber to his belt.

-



"Luke." He fell silent, regarding her. She searched his eyes for a moment, then the specter of Mara Jade Skywalker said quietly, " Whomever you were with on the Jade Shadow.... it wasn't me."
....
Who else could it -
And he knew. Horror and repugnance buffeted Luke. He tried to speak, but nothing came out. Luke forced back the shock and nausea. It would serve nothing now.
"No, it wasn't," he managed finally, his voice raw. "I should have known. I'm sorry."
Her brilliant green eyes were kind. She was beyond annoyance or jealousy. "You couldn't have. She is ancient, and powerful, and dangerous. Very dangerous."
-
A sudden shock wave hurled Ben into the sky. He felt paralyzed for a second, unable to use the Force to direct his fall, and landed hard. Ben got to his feet, grabbing his lightsaber from where it had fallen.
Abeloth was gone. He realized, as everyone else did, what must have happened. She had gathered strength to send out a powerful Force shock, to throw her attackers off her briefly, and disappeared.


From overpowering him to him conceding she's stronger to fooling him with illusions and by masking her presence, she repeatedly shows a fairly substantial power gap.
Bart
Bart
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 4:19 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Imma vote Koro-Ziil.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 11:12 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:
EXAR KUN

First of all, the actual power levels of Exar Kun's domain are considerably vast:

Exhibit A: Tott Doneeta

Tott Doneeta manages to hold off a Ryloth heat storm with the Force:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 47207010

These heat storms have speeds of 500 kilometers an hour and a temperature of 300 degrees celcius:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 47207210

These things were immense:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 47207310

They can reduce a person to dust before they can collapse:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4720733-lsumxffa

Exhibit B: Nomi Sunrider

Aleema Keto and her cousin Satal, are chosen by Freedon Nadd over King Ommin as better apprentices:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4714401-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20049


Ommin was a powerful sorceror, who could cast a shadow of corruption over Onderon and dominate the populace with the dark side:


Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:King Ommin rose to power in the same manner as his ancestors of the last three centuries: by dominating the populace of Onderon with the dark side.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4244438-ommin%20summons%20nadd3

Ommin himself was strong enough to overpower Arca Jeth:
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4244435-ommin%20overpowers%20arca

Arca in turn overcame the dark taint of Freedon Nadd's sarcophagus and ended Queen Amanoa:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4710223-028%20006%20battles%20%26%20events%20-%203999bby%20ond4a

These energies are not insignificant, the sarcophagus still has so much power that 50 years later, it is a significant site for the Sith Triumvirate:

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide wrote:Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight.

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can taste the power of the dark side here. Freedon Nadd must have been truly great to leave such an impact. The echoes of his life are still here."

Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"I can sense the power from this place. It's like the light abandoned it long ago. I fear the Sith shall be very strong here."

Queen Amanoa herself drove an entire army of Beast Riders and their mounts mad, noting the size of this army:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Beastr10

NOTE: Each Beast-Lord maintains his own army, so do your own math on this one.

Aleema Keto and her weaker cousin Satal, had such power as they began to dabble in Sith magicks, that they corrupted the world of Cinnagar:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith Audiobook Pt.2 wrote:Satal Keto and his cousin Aleema, have begun to explore the magic of the Sith and have used it to corrupt their homeworld in the Empress Teta system.

Despite this power, Nomi destroys Aleema in telepathy, whether she's attacking or defending:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 3743187-8669959473-aleem
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 3743065-8287545122-nomi1
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 3743068-1636886145-nomi1

Despite all of this power, Tott and Nomi, with the aid of Oss Willum, Cay Qel-Droma and Qrrl, are incapable of subduing Ulic Qel-Droma who focuses his power through an amulet, attacking omnidirectionally with Force lightning and telekinesis:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4292421-amulet%20lightning
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4250989-overpowers%20tot%20and%20cay
Ulic famously stalemated Exar Kun, and Kun by this point had already displayed galactic scale feats:

The Essential Guide to Characters wrote:Nadd offered Kun a way to live, and to repair his broken body: if he embraced the dark side, he would be healed. The betrayal of light was not an easy one for Kun, but the desire to live was stronger. He accepted the dark side, his screams reaching out across the galaxy and creating ripples in the Force.
The New Essential Chronology wrote:Exar Kun let out a tremendous shriek that echoed across the galaxy, calling in despair upon Master Vodo, whom he had abandoned.

Ulic disappears for years after joining Exar Kun, where he gains tremendous power in the dark side:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Ulic was then confronted by another fallen Jedi, Exar Kun. As they engaged in a lightsaber battle, the Sith Amulets both Jedi wore began to glow, and they were visited by spirits of the Ancient Sith Lords who told them that Kun was the new Dark Lord of the Sith and Qel-Droma his first assistant. Years later, Ulic reappeared with tremendous dark side powers and set out to plunder and destroy large parts of the galaxy with a large and bloodthirsty army serving alongside Exar Kun.

Ulic then attacks Coruscant, but when faced with Vodo Siosk-Baas, his weapon is telekinetically torn from his grasp and his connection to the Force blocked:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4703555-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20248
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4703558-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20248

NOTE: I consider this a majority Vodo Siosk-Baas feat because the Jedi with him couldn't subdue Ulic alone, and almost died trying, and that was years before Ulic had grown far more powerful. Furthermore, it's said that Ulic would become equal to not more powerful than, the mightiest Jedi masters of the time; which Vodo is one of, indicating Ulic became equal to Vodo after Coruscant:

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Nadd foretold that Ulic would one day be a great Sith Lord, equal to the mightiest Jedi masters.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4703379-accolade2

With Ulic captured and in chains, Exar Kun arrives at his trial in the Senate where Kun hypnotises the entire Senate and maintains that whilst defeating Vodo, who is stated to stand 'no chance' against Kun's 'deep reserve of dark side power':

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:Ulic’s trial was interrupted by Exar Kun, who met his former Master face to face for the first time since his long descent into darkness. The two fought, and Vodo-Siosk Baas was no match for Exar Kun’s double-bladed lightsaber and deep reserve of dark side power. Vodo-Siosk perished, slain by his former apprentice.

After this, Exar Kun initially met his match against Ood Bnar, who taps the power of a Force nexus so strong it's implied that it prevents the utter and total destruction of the planet:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith wrote:Ood resists Kun's attempts to steal the lightsabers by undergoing a final metamorphosis, plunging roots into the ground and driving Kun back with a blast of power drawn from the depths of Ossus.

Unlikely Survival of Ossus Codex Entry wrote:Ossus still bears the scars of the Cron Supernova: its surface is a seared wasteland of rock and sand. But even this degree of desolation is shockingly mild; that the planet was not rendered into a charred ball of molten rock, or even obliterated completely, is nothing short of miraculous.
Little academic work has been put forward to explain this unlikely survival; only conjecture. The initial cause of the supernova was unnatural; perhaps this explains the unnatural results? Ossus was a stronghold of the Jedi; does the inherent life force of such a place make it more resistant to destruction?

Kun leaves Ossus with a wealth of artifacts and knowledge, stated to be more than he could ever need, and thus becomes far more powerful than any Jedi of the time, which includes Ood:

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith wrote:Looking at all the precious artifacts his Massassi have stolen, Exar Kun knows he has more wealth and knowledge than he could ever use.

The Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She discovers the accounts of the Great Sith War, and learns that though Kun was far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time, a combined force had defeated him.

Ood Bnar, of course, was capable of summoning the same power and taking out both Luke Skywalker and disintegrating Sedriss XL; a serious contender for Luke, at once:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 5453161-ood%20blows%20up%20sedriss

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 5453164-they%20were%20disintegrated

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Several thousand years later on the planet Ossus, Bnar reawakened to help save Jem Ysanna, a young woman with powers in the Force. He ultimately sacrificed himself to destroy the evil Imperial Military Executor Sedriss.
...
The Executor was destroyed by the power of an ancient Jedi, Ood Bnar.

Noting that at this point, Executor Sedriss is even closer to Darth Vader's power than Jerec was, who already rivalled Vader's power:

Handbook 3 wrote:Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base.

Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II Game Manual wrote:His [Jerec's] embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's.

Exar Kun himself at this point is the most powerful Sith in history:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

Given Kun's power at this point naturally dwarfs that of any of the preceding Sith, he also scales majorly over the Sith Council who had already bestowed their power on Kun many years ago:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Wk7ebx10

This means that he scales above the same spirits who'd attacked and gravely injured Pre-ESB Darth Sidious, per Sheev's own admission:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 2017-110

Prime Kun is also obviously more powerful than Marka Ragnos, who was more powerful than Darth Nihilus per Kreia who not only taught Nihilus the technique and how to consume worlds with it but had studied the Telos IV holocron stash and other vast sources such as the Trayus Academy knowledge which per Chris Avellone provides her with accurate estimations of the power of the ancient Sith:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith."

Kreia herself admits Nihilus is an entire magnitude beyond her in power:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

Kreia herself was capable of literally one-shotting the entire Jedi Council:

SWTOR Codex Entry wrote:Part of Kreia’s plan involved decimating the Jedi Order. On Dantooine, Kreia severed Masters Vrook Lmar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell from the Force, killing them within the Jedi Enclave.

Each of those masters were around the power of an amped Bastila Shan:

Bastila Shan, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"The Dark Side has made me stronger than I ever was before! I have a greater command of the Force than all but the most powerful Jedi masters."

Bastila Shan was capable of holding her own willpower against all of the corruptive apparatus; including torture by Force lightning, of Darth Malak for an entire week before succumbing:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4420486-3937161875-yal70
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 4420487-1445163735-vVkpZ

Furthermore, Kun's effects on the galaxy and cosmos at this point represented a 'torrent' of the dark side which only ended with him being sealed within the Temple of Yavin IV:

Exar Kun, Star Wars Databank wrote:Before Vader, before Maul, before Sidious... there was a Dark Lord of the Sith that cast a shadow of terror and destruction across the galaxy. The ancient forces of the Republic and the Jedi banded together to stop the torrent of the dark side, and bring an end to Exar Kun's rule.

His return from slumber and the later return of his predecessor in Marka Ragnos, caused the Force itself to 'seethe':

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties, starwars.com wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy. This latter event was not isolated. Some of the disciples of Ragnos had formerly been aligned with the dark sider Hethrir and his Empire Reborn, which had been defeated only a short time prior. Worse, soon after the encounter with Ragnos, the lifeless body of the reformed Sith acolyte Flint was found on Belderone: an ancient Jedi lightsaber in hand, a cauterized hole through his throat.
The Force seethed with the suggestion of a grand, sinister scheme.

Exar Kun's spirit, factually far weaker than he was in his living prime, was capable by itself of defeating Master Luke:

Champions of the Force wrote:Afraid to challenge the dark power that had been sufficient to warp other students and defeat Master Skywalker.

Who by this point is in his prime:

Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

I, Jedi wrote:When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.

I could go on, but Exar Kun would smash Malgus' face in and he wouldn't need tricks like Vaapad or anything to do it.

Bumping, just for anyone who didn't spot this.
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 11:17 am
I'm not totally convinced on TOTJ Kun > JA Kun tbh.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 12:00 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:Because not only do the authors responsible say TOTJ > JA, but the actual sources make it exceptionally clear that the ritual was designed for the sole purpose of transforming him into a spirit so he could escape the Jedi attack. It didn't give him uber powers nor does anything say it did. Furthermore, we know for a fact that he had to literally hang-on to the temple focal points so as to resist the pull of the void on his spirit. He wasn't getting stronger, he just got used to his state. He literally was forced to slumber because he had no energy to sustain himself until Luke came and woke him up. He's literally described as seeking the power he would need to live again which is defined as restoring his lost reserves of energy:

Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

See again:

Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber.
A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form. To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force. Too powerful, for the moment, for Kun to tackle.
Kun finds Gantoris, strong-willed and impatient to learn, to be a more promising first candidate. He easily seduces Gantoris in the same manner that Nadd had seduced him—by promising forbidden knowledge and the truly powerful Jedi secrets Gantoris cannot wait to learn. Carefully building up and feeding on the anger of his first apprentice, Kun grows in power. Soon he feels confident to make an attempt to subvert Luke, knowing that if he can sway the teacher, the students will all follow. Kun, posing as Anakin Skywalker, appears to Luke and attempts to pull him toward the forbidden Sith teachings by tempting him to use Sith power to seize control of the New Republic and destroy the Empire. Realizing that this shade is not that of his father, Luke rejects the offer.
Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.
Kun has just begun edging in on Streen when Kyp Durron arrives at the Jedi Academy. Kun immediately senses in the young man his ideal subject. Like Gantoris, Kyp is strong-willed and impatient to learn. Moreover, he is far more powerful than the Eol Sha leader, and young enough to be overconfident and naive.
Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.


And:

The Jedi chased Exar Kun to his stronghold on Yavin IV and used their combined power to strike him down and annihilate his Massassi warriors. However, Exar Kun was able to escape death by using Sith sorcery to preserve his spirit in the Massassi temples.

Again:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Screen40

Please provide sources for literally anything you've claimed against the aforementioned.

It's not a matter of convincing, it's a matter of fact.
Gianfi
Gianfi

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 1:00 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Darth Caedus
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 1:11 pm
How is Darth Caedus comparable to anyone listed prior?
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 5:00 pm
@LadyKulvax You realize JA spirit Kun in Kyp’s body is using it as an medium to exercise his power gotten from the ritual, right? Are you arguing for post ritual pre WoL Kun or normal TOTJ Kun?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 5:07 pm
He didn't get any power from the ritual, this is literally fanon. Kun used the Massassi as a sacrifice to fuel his ritual to merge with the dark side and become a spirit to escape the incoming Jedi fleet and travel across the galaxy. He lost all of his power because of this and had to anchor himself to the focal points to escape being pulled into the void. Literally just read my post above for actual bona fide sources on the matter.
avatar
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 11th 2020, 11:47 pm
So just to clarify: 

We have a peer of Sidious, an ancient Sith lord, a being who could knock down GM Luke, a Sith who could hurt Abeloth with TP, a clone of Vader's apprentice more powerful than the original, and the son of Han Solo and Leia. 

Interesting choices, all around.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 12th 2020, 7:09 pm
Revan still has my vote. Though @Cilghal made a great case for the Hidden One and thereby drastically improved my opinion of him. Vol obviously seems like a good pick but I'm not sure enough about him
Vader's Legacy
Vader's Legacy
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 12th 2020, 9:30 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Changing to Mace
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 2:57 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
This will be my case for Unchained Vaylin being number 9 on this list.

I will divide it in two main parts. First of all I will established the power of Chained Vaylin and then I will show the insane gap between Unchained Vaylin and Chained Vaylin.



*Chained Vaylin Power*


~An Impressive Growth~


In KotFE we really meet Vaylin during the Chapter III when she's hunting the Outlander on Zakul. During this chase, she used TK to distabilise a pretty huge Zakul reactor. However she wasn't powerful enough to fully destroy the reactor and was only able to torn a part of the structure of the reactor.

On the following picture, you can see in green circle the debris that she moved and in the red circle the remaining of the generator.
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Vaylin10  
Here a picture to have a referential
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 GiVDShl

 As you can see, despite being huge, this display of TK isn't really impressive.

However, some months after she faced her mother on Ord Mantell. Despite the fact that Senya hold her own in lightsaber fight, she acknowledged that Vaylin could ragdoll her easily if she use her force power.


A Mother's Hope wrote:She could crush my skull in an instant, Senya realized. And I'd be powerless to stop her! 
[...]
Vaylin flicked her wrist, hurtling Senya through the air to slam against the hull of one of the broken vessels surrounding the camp. Senya crumpled to the ground, momentarily stunned
[...]
She could still kill me anytime she likes. She's been toying with me this whole time.


The interresting part here come when you know how powerful Senya is with Telekinesis. Her most impressive feat takes place on Zakul where she was able to lift a fully bog down Gravestone [Senya lift Gravestone] . On this feat the help of Lana Beniko is clearly negligeable knowing that she was unable to open a simple blast door with TK.

Based on this we can see than in mere month Vaylin power growth insanely from not being able to move a generator to be able to ragdoll someone who can lift the Gravestone out of the mud.

And this version of Vaylin keep growing at least at the same rate during the following months as Valkorion say himself to the Outlander:


@Valkorion wrote:Her power grows exponentially

So before coming on Nathema to become unchained she is just in another league entirely than her former self that can easily ragdoll Senya. It is very possible that she could ragdolled her previous self.



~Vaylin vs Spirit Valkorion~


During the third chapter of KotET and for the first time in both KotFE and KotET, Vaylin is able to break free from Valkorion's Time freeze ability [Vaylin breaking time freeze] . This and the fact that Valkorion must rely on her mental conditionning to control her  "Kneel before the Dragon of Zakul" is a clear proof that Vaylin is become more powerful than her father under his spiritual form. If you keep in mind the previous point about her insanely powerful growth rate in the force, we have that:

Prime Chained Vaylin >> KotET 3 Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion.

Now the question is: from what Spirit Valkorion can be scaled?
The answer is pretty simple, after being bring to "the brink of oblivion" by the death of his main body (by the hand of the HoT), added to the losses of both his First Son (Barshent'hor job) and his voice (Baras and the Wrath work), Valkorion was not even able to possess a body

He used the residual energy from the revanite war to gain enough power and then come on Ziost where he killed a planet to regain his full powerAfter being restored to his full power, he just go into the Outlander body as a spirit. 
Then we need to know: how weaker was spirit Valkorion compared to physical Valkorion? The answer is: not so much. Indeed this time Valkorion decide to change from physical to spiritual form. When a typical sith is killed, he loose power from both the death of the body and then the resistance against the void that try to consume it until he's anchor to something. In this very situation, Valkorion directly get an anchor (the Outlander body). Thus the only loss of power came from the destruction of his body. Knowing that Valkorion have set this as a trap to conquer your mind and your body as explain by one of the director of this story:


He spurs his son's bloodlust and ambition by setting him and the fleet loose on the galaxy (now that they're definitely in no state to resist the fleet's power or endanger Zakuul). He lures his new enemy into a trap and captures them. He arranges his own "death", whether by the player's hand or Arcann's, and invades the player's mind. Arcann and Vaylin do exactly what he expects, which is to generally muck up the galaxy and establish themselves as tyrants in need of overthrowing. And then he arranges and guides the player in doing just that, all the while laying the groundwork for dominating their mind at the moment of their victory and commanding a newly-reshaped galaxy as a heroic liberator - an all-new experience to try out. Too bad it didn't work out for him.
Because Valkorion want to earn more and more power, it is pretty obvious for Valkorion to find the way to loose the less power possible during the transfert of spirit and it isn't unbelievable to think that he managed to keep nearly all of his power.


Based on this we can deduce that this spirit Valkorion is way more powerful than the version of himself that was able to do the Ziost cataclysm which include not only draining the life of countless of being (up to the point where their body were reduced to ashes) but also being able to interfere with the magnetic field of the planet [1] and the atmosphere [2].

As a result we end with:
Prime Chained Vaylin >> KotET 3 Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >> Killing all life on Ziost + Disturbing the magnetic field of the planet + impacting the atmosphere.

[1]
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 WmQyJNy
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 JVBCr1T
[2]
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 ClzSGAy



~Partial Conclusion~


Only based on this, we have that Prime Chained Vaylin is already more than a worthy challenger for the 9 place in this list. None of the other pretenders can scale from a planetary feat. 



  • We can scale Darish Vol from the Abeloth that he faced. The version that he hurted by using a particular technic nearly killed him and then when enraged was only able to destroy the capital city of the Lost Tribe. While this is a goodd feat this is way below planetary level and thus to defeat Vol Malgus will only need an amp around this level of power. As I have shown, Prime Chained Vaylin is above planetary level feat which put her cleary in another league than a city-level amped Malgus.



  • As we have seen in the previous part, it is nearly impossible to scale precisely Caedus from Luke. We know that he was able to face his uncle with some advantages and disadvantages but at the end we don't have anything that allow us to put him at a planetary level force user. Therefore he cannot be put above Vaylin.


  • While Mace performance against RotS Sidious is good, the multiple particularities of  this fight (with for example his love for the Republic and the fear to loose it) made it pretty unclear whether or not he is really on par with RotS Sidious. Because of this, like for Caedus, this isn't possible to put him clearly above a planetary feat.


  • Starkiller showing are still good but clearly the pales in comparison to this planetary scaling, himself having no showing that put him above the city level feat. The disintegration of the Salvation or the ISD redirecting don't make him more than a city-level threat. 


  • The only one at this stade who can claim to be still in the course is Revan if you agree with the scaling from Ant which place Revan not so far from Valkorion. But here he is already hardly challenged by Chained Vaylin.  Let's Unchained her and you will see that clearly it is impossible for Revan to still compete.



*A league above : Unchained Vaylin*


~A threat to Valkorion himself~


Even while she was just a child Not Chained Vaylin power was tremendous. Indeed during her training with some Knights of Zakuul she easily ragdolled 5 of them with TK.
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 MVA71Jp



Even though this knights were some random force users, we can think that they are equivalent to jedi knight or maybe a bit more powerful. Just think a minute, have we saw another character in the whole lore being able to replicate this feat at such a young age? The only other that comes to my mind is Valkorion himself. 


This feat is further reinforce by the decision that Valkorion made of create a mental conditionning for her:

@Valkorion wrote:Unchecked, Vaylin was a threat to everything I had created...[]. Her power had to be contained

SWTOR Codex: Vaylin's Conditionning wrote:Even as a child, Vaylin shiwed signs of tremendous power. Fearing she would one day challenge him, Valkorion imprisoned his daughter while he sought limits and controls on her power.

SWTOR Codex: Vaylin wrote:From the moment his daughter, Vaylin, was born, Valkorion felt her strong connection to the Force. As she grew up, the Immortal Emperor noticed similarities between them, which both pleased and frightened him, and he decided to keep a tight leash on his favorite child

Vaylin: The New Empress wrote:Vaylin is the most dangerously unhinged of Valkorion's children -and the most powerful. As a child, her strenght with the Force was so great that Valkorion locked her away in a remote compound.

~An insane gap~


While she arrived on Nathema, Prime Chained Vaylin encounter three Acklays. When she tried to use TK on them she failed absolutely [Vaylin vs Acklays] . This is a perfect proof that on Nathema she wasn't able at all to use the Force despite being so immensly strong with it. 
However during the time where she was freed of her mental conditionning we can see that she increase in power insanely. First of all she withstand six energy beams which directly fired on her [Vaylin 6 energy beams] . Just to give you an idea of the power of them, a burst of this green energy coming from Vaylin by reflection was able to turn into ashes a Nathema Zealot, who is a force user (we can think that they are around the level of some random Jedi Knight).


★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 5757672-8476111917-zPjur



So under such a powerful attack, Vaylin was able to survive. Knowing that she was unable to use her TK before, it is pretty obvious that this energy attack start a fracture into Vaylin's conditionning allowing her to start using her full potential. This version of Vaylin is clearly a league above her former self and this is only the start.


Following this start, Vaylin power began to overload the system and to release waves of power through the whole asylum. This burst were so powerful that this produced some earthquakes and was felt by the Outlander and Valkorion. Even Valkorion was terrified by this [Vaylin burst and earthquake]


Then we see the Asylum begining to be destroy by the successive burst of power of Vaylin, rendering the beast and their keeper mad [Asylum shacked to his fundation]  [Beast and keeper mad]

As the time progress a green smoke spread into the Asylum, this fog was deadly as shown by Outlander or Valkorion who escaped it. [deadly green smoke]

At last Vaylin finally broke free from her chain, this is see when the energy around her went from green to purple. [Unchaining Vaylin]  Directly after this:

  •  her mother wake up from her coma on Odessen (really far from Nathema)
  • she destroy the six energy pillars by overloading them
  • the wave unleashed by her unchaining was felt by Lana, the Outlander and Valkorion, incapaciting them for some instant.

The most interresting fact here is the change of attitude from Vaylin. She went from suffering and growling like an animal to someone fully in control, able to destroy what hurted her. This clearly shows a pretty huge growth in power between the start of the unchaining process and the end of it.

This is the end of this insane growth during this time, Vaylin went from someone with no power to someone able to telekinectly crush from orbit the main system of the asylum in order for it to destroy the whole place [Destruction of the Asylum] .


The feat itself is insane but if you add the fact that she was able to succeed this despite being negatively impacted by the Void (which heavily hindered her) you reach another level of power and you can easily understand how huge is the gap between Prime Chained Vaylin and Unchained Vaylin.


~Partial Conclusion~



The only remaining opponent to Vaylin in term of power was Revan. However, we have seen that he was in the league of Prime Chained Vaylin who is non-significant compared to Unchained Vaylin. Based on this we can all agree on the fact that Unchained Vaylin is above Revan by a clear margin.


*CONCLUSION*



Only one real opponent to Unchained Vaylin still exist because I did not explain why he was below her. The Hidden One. Yes, his performance against Luke was impressive. However this showing was nothing more than what Unuthul dispatch on Luke which was able to anchor him in the heart of the Force to become unmovable. Here Luke was able to move and to progress. This is a clear proof that at this moment the Hidden One is comparable to Unuthul in power. I have already explained why Darish Vol was in fact more powerful than Unuthul [here]. Even though you can think that Prime Koro Zill is more powerful than this version, the fact that we don't have anything to precisely scale him make impossible for anyone to clearly put him above Unuthul (at least by a Darish Vol league). A similar reasoning can be made with Yoda whose prime must be at least 200 years before the prequel. We cannot make a solid argument in the favor of someone only based on a theoretical decrease in their power.
Knowing that Darish Vol is below Unchained Vaylin, it is easy to put also Koro Zill below the Empress of Zakuul.

Let me just remind you the scaling chain that Vaylin have for her:


Fully Unchained Vaylin >>> Start of Unchaining Vaylin >>>>>> Prime Chained Vaylin >> KotET 3 Chained Vaylin > Spirit Valkorion >> Killing all life on Ziost + Disturbing the magnetic field of the planet (impacting its core) + impacting the atmosphere.

Unchained Vaylin is more than worthy to be at the 9th place in this classement by being clearly above anyone that you have proposed so far.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 2:58 am
@xolthol: Very good post. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 1289255181 I’ll try to share more thoughts on it when I can.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 3:05 am
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 3:08 am
@xolthol Nice post! Great to see Vaylin get the attention she deserves.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 3:14 am
@Xolthol good post overall. However, I fell the need to address Darish Vol vs Zill. Expect a response in the near future.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 3:15 am
Quality post, most certainly raised Vaylin in my eyes.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 3:53 am
@Xolthol

Starkiller showing are still good but clearly the pales in comparison to this planetary scaling, himself having no showing that put him above the city level feat. The disintegration of the Salvation or the ISD redirecting don't make him more than a city-level threat.

How are you drawing these comparisons? To you have any way to compare drain and TK? How do you know draining a planet is more impressive than moving an ISD?
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 4:02 am
@NotAA3 wrote:How do you know draining a planet is more impressive than moving an ISD?

@NotAA3 Are you really trying to compare draining a full planet, impacting the magnetic field and disturbing the athmosphere with stopping the fall of an ISD ? This is ludicrous and really bad faith. 
But if you want an argument just take Bane as an example. He nearly collapsed a temple but have insane difficulty to drain some Andeddu's cultist. Based on this draining a planet is insanely above stopping the fall of the ISD.
avatar
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 7:04 am
@Xolthol Very nice post and great arguments for Vaylin. You didn't really go into detail about Mace but I might do a rebuttal sometime in the next few weeks to establish his superiority. Imo, right now it comes down to Mace, Vaylin and the Outlander, the latter I don't plan to rep yet.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 12:27 pm
So to make things especially clear. Kun as a spirit is nowhere near his living prime:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Screen43

Furthermore, literally just reading TOTJ tells you Kun was vanquished and that all of the Sith power beneath was 'extinguished':

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Screen41
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Screen42

So yes, all of Kun's spirit feats and scaling is applicable to TOTJ Exar Kun.

But I don't want to dwell on that, I want to dwell on the scale of Exar Kun's power. First of all, Jedi Knight Exar Kun's Force screams created ripples in the Force and reached across the galaxy, heard by pretty much every Jedi:

The New Essential Chronology wrote:Exar Kun let out a tremendous shriek that echoed across the galaxy, calling in despair upon Master Vodo, whom he had abandoned.

The Essential Guide to Characters wrote:Nadd offered Kun a way to live, and to repair his broken body: if he embraced the dark side, he would be healed. The betrayal of light was not an easy one for Kun, but the desire to live was stronger. He accepted the dark side, his screams reaching out across the galaxy and creating ripples in the Force.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Screen44
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Screen45

Jedi Kun, who is already dwarfed by himself in power by the time he arrives on Cinnagar. Speaking of which, Kun screams a third time when he destroys and succeeds Nadd:

Vodo Siosk-Baas, Tales of the Jedi Audio Dram CD#2 wrote:I heard the voice of my fallen student Exar Kun, crying out in evil triumph!

Furthermore, Exar Kun towards his prime represents a 'torrent' of the dark side. This only ended when Kun himself was stopped by the Jedi strike fleet:

Exar Kun, Star Wars Databank wrote:Before Vader, before Maul, before Sidious... there was a Dark Lord of the Sith that cast a shadow of terror and destruction across the galaxy. The ancient forces of the Republic and the Jedi banded together to stop the torrent of the dark side, and bring an end to Exar Kun's rule.

His spirit was one of two, which caused the Force itself to 'seethe':

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy. This latter event was not isolated. Some of the disciples of Ragnos had formerly been aligned with the dark sider Hethrir and his Empire Reborn, which had been defeated only a short time prior. Worse, soon after the encounter with Ragnos, the lifeless body of the reformed Sith acolyte Flint was found on Belderone: an ancient Jedi lightsaber in hand, a cauterized hole through his throat.
The Force seethed with the suggestion of a grand, sinister scheme.

Exar Kun has powers on both the galactic and cosmic scales, to a top degree, which definitely earns him a place here.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 2:48 pm
@LadyKulvax What have you for Kun to be far above planetary level like Vaylin ? Because despite your RT and scaling I failed to see anything that put him near even Prime Chained Vaylin...
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 2:55 pm
The fact that in his prime he pretty clearly scales far beyond JA Master Luke and is a lethal threat to ESB Sidious. Scaling above the Ancient Threat which required the team that takes on Revan in the Temple of Sacrifice. Scaling far above the Sith spirits Thon trapped which would've consumed an entire sector, nevermind a planet.

Not to mention the top ancient Sith scale over Nihilus who absorbs worlds and it is heavily implied any Sith with the technique would too back then.

There are plenty of things in my RT that compare here. You just stating that nothing does isn't an argument at all.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 3:19 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote: in his prime he pretty clearly scales far beyond JA Master Luke
I think that you miss someting for this... for example the context which is clearly explained HERE


@LadyKulvax wrote: is a lethal threat to ESB Sidious
I missed where you explain this in your RT. Care to show me?

@LadyKulvax wrote:Scaling above the Ancient Threat which required the team that takes on Revan in the Temple of Sacrifice.
I thought that Exar Kun was part of the Ancient Threat... 
Can you also provide me the proof that he is above them? 

In addition to this you seems to forget that Yavin IV is an insanely powerful DS nexus (making Oricon seems nothing in comparison) so the Ancient Threat was amp.

Last but not least, I have shown that Unchained Vaylin is insanely above Prime Revan.

@LadyKulvax wrote:Scaling far above the Sith spirits Thon trapped which would've consumed an entire sector, nevermind a planet
This is a more than ambiguous feat and scaling... And Thon trapped DS energy in the Ambria Lake not sith spirit.

@LadyKulvax wrote:There are plenty of things in my RT that compare here. You just stating that nothing does isn't an argument at all.

Yeah this is exactly the problem, you give lots of information but don't create clean and easily readable scaling chain or feat showing. In order to succeed you must explain why your champion is better than the other, not just throw a bunch of unclear feats.
Sponsored content

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 5 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum