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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 14th 2020, 5:39 am
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Kun doesn't scale off the Ancient Threat.
LadyKulvax
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on February 14th 2020, 6:18 am
@xolthol wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote: in his prime he pretty clearly scales far beyond JA Master Luke
I think that you miss someting for this... for example the context which is clearly explained HERE

A completely irrelevant thread when spirit Kun's supremacy is not up for debate:

Champions of the Force wrote:Afraid to challenge the dark power that had been sufficient to warp other students and defeat Master Skywalker.

@xolthol wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote: is a lethal threat to ESB Sidious
I missed where you explain this in your RT. Care to show me?

The spirits of the Dark Lords cowed Darth Sidious, to such a degree Sidious required time in a bacta tank to heal and couldn't merely heal himself through the Force:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Screen30

Something Sidious himself freely admits to:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 2017-10-29

Exar Kun had already been bestowed the power of the Sith Council of Dark Lords years before his prime:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Wk7EBX5

And in his prime, he's canonically living Marka Ragnos' superior, who himself is canonically above all the other ancient Sith, and Ragnos led all of the spirits as the Dark Lord of the Sith after Naga Sadow's failure, hence being the primary source of power in the attack on Sidious:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the rise of the Empire.

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS.

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos.

@xolthol wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:Scaling above the Ancient Threat which required the team that takes on Revan in the Temple of Sacrifice.
I thought that Exar Kun was part of the Ancient Threat... 
Can you also provide me the proof that he is above them? 

In addition to this you seems to forget that Yavin IV is an insanely powerful DS nexus (making Oricon seems nothing in comparison) so the Ancient Threat was amp.

No, the presence of the spirits of Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord converged in one place and the amount of dark side energies caused by this convergence manifested into the Ancient Threat. It's the corrupting power of their presence. Given that none of them are anywhere near their prime is where this gets interesting.

The Ancient Threat is incorporeal dark side energy. You may as well claim that the dark side amps the dark side.

@xolthol wrote:Last but not least, I have shown that Unchained Vaylin is insanely above Prime Revan.

She really isn't though. Because there's no reason why Revan at full power doesn't perform similarly.

@xolthol wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:Scaling far above the Sith spirits Thon trapped which would've consumed an entire sector, nevermind a planet
This is a more than ambiguous feat and scaling... And Thon trapped DS energy in the Ambria Lake not sith spirit.

No it isn't:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 7017579-thonambria

Exar Kun >> Ood Bnar ~ Ossus Kun >> Odan-Urr ~ Thon > Sith spirits of Ambria ~ consuming an entire sector of the Republic inner rim.

@xolthol wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:There are plenty of things in my RT that compare here. You just stating that nothing does isn't an argument at all.

Yeah this is exactly the problem, you give lots of information but don't create clean and easily readable scaling chain or feat showing. In order to succeed you must explain why your champion is better than the other, not just throw a bunch of unclear feats.

I am not the type to force anyone to draw the same conclusion as me. I merely provide the evidence and let others draw what they wish. Hopefully similar thoughts to my own.
LadyKulvax
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on February 14th 2020, 6:27 am
@BoD wrote:Kun doesn't scale off the Ancient Threat.

Kun's spirit; which was literally slumbering from having its power 'extinguished' by the Jedi Wall of Light, prior to the referenced awakening, is literally at a fraction of his strength. A similarly poor state can be said to be true for all three other spirits involved too. All of whom are varying degrees of canonically inferior to him even in their living states. Naga Sadow, for one, was canonically far less powerful than pre-Onderon Freedon Nadd when Nadd murdered him, who then went on to gain much more power for a century afterwards. Kun as of Cinnagar is living Nadd's canonical superior. In other words Sadow is next to nothing here.

The idea that prime Exar Kun doesn't scale over the Ancient Threat entity is a big stretch.
BoD
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on February 14th 2020, 7:22 am
Kun's spirit; which was literally slumbering from having its power 'extinguished' by the Jedi Wall of Light, prior to the referenced awakening, is literally at a fraction of his strength. A similarly poor state can be said to be true for all three other spirits involved too. All of whom are varying degrees of canonically inferior to him even in their living states. Naga Sadow, for one, was canonically far less powerful than pre-Onderon Freedon Nadd when Nadd murdered him, who then went on to gain much more power for a century afterwards. Kun as of Cinnagar is living Nadd's canonical superior. In other words Sadow is next to nothing here.

The idea that prime Exar Kun doesn't scale over the Ancient Threat entity is a big stretch.

...On an already incredibly dark side planet. Think of it like the straw that broke the camel's back: their awakening was the final step needed for the awakening:


Long-forgotten Sith spirits have awakened on Yavin 4. This convergence of dark side energies could give rise to a powerful and ancient threat within the moon's already-treacherous jungles.

It's the ripples their individual awakenings caused that when combined with a dark side nexus that made Oricon look like Naboo that caused a dark side entity to arise. Claiming that their power was the only factor in the entity's creation is ignoring the very context of Yavin IV and its dark side nexus.
LadyKulvax
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on February 14th 2020, 7:46 am
By that reckoning, Vitiate and Revan should've caused something similar. But that's not what happened, because the defining reason was the four spirits awakening and its sole weakness came from what it was created by, them. Hence why their essences and talismans(created by their power) is what can harm it.

The primary source of it was the spirits, them awakening at the same time in the same place is what caused it. Given the fact that Sith spirits can only manifest themselves on worlds with a dark side anchor, your point is pretty much moot. Yavin IV's power was responsible for awakening them, but it was their awakening that caused the entity to be created due to their dark side energies converging.
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on February 14th 2020, 8:58 am
By that reckoning, Vitiate and Revan should've caused something similar.

No, because Vitiate was comatose, on the brink of death, and locked within the temple for almost the entirety of SoR. And how do we know Revan didn't contribute to the darkness on Yavin IV?




But that's not what happened, because the defining reason was the four spirits awakening and its sole weakness came from what it was created by, them. Hence why their essences and talismans(created by their power) is what can harm it.

The talismans are a purely gameplay mechanic to get a title. Per Dulfy:



  • If you are just after the achievements and don’t care about the world boss, you can skip the Tatooine step. You can summon summon Ancient Threat and get most of the achievements.

  • Only person with all 4 Talisman buffs can summon the Ancient Threat but anyone can fight it if they have the Ancient Tome buff.




The talismans were utterly irrelevant. The Ancient Threat could be beaten without them.



The primary source of it was the spirits, them awakening at the same time in the same place is what caused it. Given the fact that Sith spirits can only manifest themselves on worlds with a dark side anchor, your point is pretty much moot. Yavin IV's power was responsible for awakening them, but it was their awakening that caused the entity to be created due to their dark side energies converging.

It's hardly moot. Spirits can still benefit from the effects of nexuses. Sith spirits can also bind themselves to physical anchors, it's just usually that these happen in areas of dark side power. Karness Muur springs to mind, as does Darth Marr (who presumably bound himself to Satele).
LadyKulvax
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on February 14th 2020, 10:14 am
@BoD wrote:
By that reckoning, Vitiate and Revan should've caused something similar.

No, because Vitiate was comatose, on the brink of death, and locked within the temple for almost the entirety of SoR. And how do we know Revan didn't contribute to the darkness on Yavin IV?

How exactly is Vitiate's state any worse than his compatriots here?

We know that the convergence only happened after the events because the patch it came in is chronologically set after the events of Shadow of Revan.

@BoD wrote:
But that's not what happened, because the defining reason was the four spirits awakening and its sole weakness came from what it was created by, them. Hence why their essences and talismans(created by their power) is what can harm it.

The talismans are a purely gameplay mechanic to get a title. Per Dulfy:



  • If you are just after the achievements and don’t care about the world boss, you can skip the Tatooine step. You can summon summon Ancient Threat and get most of the achievements.

  • Only person with all 4 Talisman buffs can summon the Ancient Threat but anyone can fight it if they have the Ancient Tome buff.




The talismans were utterly irrelevant. The Ancient Threat could be beaten without them.

Are you reading your own quotes? The talismans are required to summon it to the group's position in the first place. Which means they have to be present within the group. The knowledge from the Ancient Tome is required to know how to even damage the thing. All of the above is required.

And please stop the idea that there has to be some strict reference in a lore segment somewhere for something to be more than gameplay mechanics. If something, be it a quest or an item, is required to be completed to achieve a 100% complete playthrough, it's C-canon. That's the way the policy has always worked since its inception.

@BoD wrote:
The primary source of it was the spirits, them awakening at the same time in the same place is what caused it. Given the fact that Sith spirits can only manifest themselves on worlds with a dark side anchor, your point is pretty much moot. Yavin IV's power was responsible for awakening them, but it was their awakening that caused the entity to be created due to their dark side energies converging.

It's hardly moot. Spirits can still benefit from the effects of nexuses. Sith spirits can also bind themselves to physical anchors, it's just usually that these happen in areas of dark side power. Karness Muur springs to mind, as does Darth Marr (who presumably bound himself to Satele).

We know exactly how spirits work with a nexus:

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun - who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity - resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

Nadd literally refers to himself as powerless in his spiritual state despite the aforementioned anchor. He himself appears on Yavin IV but the only reason he could become active at all was because he drained all of the power from hundreds of trapped Jedi spirits. A nexus does not amp a spirit. Muur is a massive exception to the rule in that the Talisman he got from Syn was literally designed to store and sustain a spirit.

But you still haven't answered my point about them being the primary source of power by a mile.
xolthol
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on February 14th 2020, 1:08 pm
@LadyKulvax

A completely irrelevant thread when spirit Kun's supremacy is not up for debate:
The quote that you give don't place Kun above Skywalker. It just explain that Skywalker was defeat by Kun. Something that happened because of a particular CONTEXT explained in the blog that I sent to you. 

The spirits of the Dark Lords cowed Darth Sidious, to such a degree Sidious required time in a bacta tank to heal and couldn't merely heal himself through the Force:
Yes a group of sith spirits hurt Palpatine. I think that you clearly forget the fact that this wasn't only 1 spirit but a bunch of them... it is impossible to say that Kun was above them collectively. 

No, the presence of the spirits of Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord converged in one place and the amount of dark side energies caused by this convergence manifested into the Ancient Threat. It's the corrupting power of their presence. Given that none of them are anywhere near their prime is where this gets interesting.

The Ancient Threat is incorporeal dark side energy. You may as well claim that the dark side amps the dark side.
Hmm I think that you forget that maybe this Siths spirits weren't in their prime, but they were on an insane DS nexus. Based on this we can easily agree on the fact that the spirit were amp so possibly near their prime power. 
In addition to this I fail to see what allow you to put Kun above this ancient threat. A convergence of DS energy coming from an insane DS nexus could be insanely powerful... possibly more powerful than the group of spirit that initially create them.

No it isn't:
 Yes it is... let me show you the unclear point of this feat: the term sector could be related not to the space sector but to the sector of the planet Ambria where the fight takes place.
Another unclear point: did Thon defeated the sith spirits all together or one after the other? Impossible to know so impossible to know whether or not Thon scaled above this sith spirit collectively. Indeed, if I decide to told the story of young Kyle Katarn, I could write that "Kyle defeat some powerful dark jedi and their master Jerec" this would be true but Katarn didn't defeated them alltogether.
In addition, it is written that Thon trapped "sinister energy" into a lake, not the sith spirits that he defeated....

She really isn't though. Because there's no reason why Revan at full power doesn't perform similarly.
I have made a case for Unchained Vaylin being clearly above Prime Revan. Feel free to (try to) counter it if you think so...
LadyKulvax
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on February 14th 2020, 10:57 pm
@xolthol wrote:@LadyKulvax
A completely irrelevant thread when spirit Kun's supremacy is not up for debate:
The quote that you give don't place Kun above Skywalker. It just explain that Skywalker was defeat by Kun. Something that happened because of a particular CONTEXT explained in the blog that I sent to you.

What is says is that the dark power was sufficient enough to defeat Skywalker. It isn't providing added context, because it's a statement of fact, and Luke twice over admits it required all of the Jedi of his academy, including him, to defeat Exar well after the fact.

@xolthol wrote:
The spirits of the Dark Lords cowed Darth Sidious, to such a degree Sidious required time in a bacta tank to heal and couldn't merely heal himself through the Force:
Yes a group of sith spirits hurt Palpatine. I think that you clearly forget the fact that this wasn't only 1 spirit but a bunch of them... it is impossible to say that Kun was above them collectively.

I think that you don't realise I literally provided the scan of Kun being bestowed the Sith Council's power thus their power was his from Cinnagar onwards. It wasn't just Ragnos's.

@xolthol wrote:
No, the presence of the spirits of Exar Kun, Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos and Tulak Hord converged in one place and the amount of dark side energies caused by this convergence manifested into the Ancient Threat. It's the corrupting power of their presence. Given that none of them are anywhere near their prime is where this gets interesting.

The Ancient Threat is incorporeal dark side energy. You may as well claim that the dark side amps the dark side.
Hmm I think that you forget that maybe this Siths spirits weren't in their prime, but they were on an insane DS nexus. Based on this we can easily agree on the fact that the spirit were amp so possibly near their prime power. 
In addition to this I fail to see what allow you to put Kun above this ancient threat. A convergence of DS energy coming from an insane DS nexus could be insanely powerful... possibly more powerful than the group of spirit that initially create them.

I literally just debunked the idea that Sith spirits are amped by a nexus in my discussion with BoD:

The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Each dark side spirit has a focal point of power that anchors it in the physical world. For example, the interred Sith Lords of Korriban use their burial sarcophagi to hold their spirits for millennia after death. Freedon Nadd clung to his tomb for countless centuries, waiting for the right opportunity to turn his successor to the dark side. Exar Kun - who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity - resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

Nadd admits his powerless state to Jeth despite being on freaking Onderon. Because it is only an anchor.

@xolthol wrote:
No it isn't:
 Yes it is... let me show you the unclear point of this feat: the term sector could be related not to the space sector but to the sector of the planet Ambria where the fight takes place.

This makes no sense whatsoever, the spirits already covered the entire planet:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 4700003-5697017890-tEJc7

@xolthol wrote:Another unclear point: did Thon defeated the sith spirits all together or one after the other? Impossible to know so impossible to know whether or not Thon scaled above this sith spirit collectively. Indeed, if I decide to told the story of young Kyle Katarn, I could write that "Kyle defeat some powerful dark jedi and their master Jerec" this would be true but Katarn didn't defeated them alltogether.
In addition, it is written that Thon trapped "sinister energy" into a lake, not the sith spirits that he defeated....

We literally are told that Thon trapped all of the spirits at once:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 4691668-contain%20dark

@xolthol wrote:
She really isn't though. Because there's no reason why Revan at full power doesn't perform similarly.
I have made a case for Unchained Vaylin being clearly above Prime Revan. Feel free to (try to) counter it if you think so...

I don't need to counter it when Ant's long-standing posts regarding Revan's placement over Ziost!Vitiate are as solid as ever.
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on February 15th 2020, 5:52 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@LadyKulvax

This will be my last response because it is now obvious to anyone that you are of incredibly bad faith...

What is says is that the dark power was sufficient enough to defeat Skywalker. It isn't providing added context, because it's a statement of fact, and Luke twice over admits it required all of the Jedi of his academy, including him, to defeat Exar well after the fact.

As already explained in the threat, yes Luke Skywalker insanely hindered by both his mental restriction and the DS nexus of Yavin IV cannot defeat JA Exar Kun. But this version of Luke cannot defeat either DE Sidious or Darish Vol or Koro Zill or anyone else that have been provided for this 9th place.
I will draw a comparison for you:
Imagine a instant that you are a really good H2H fighter, lets say a champion of MMA. Lets also imagine that I cut one of your leg. You won't be at your prime and thus cannot compete with the number two of MMA (that in your previous shape you have defeated). Anyone can say that the number two is better than you and you can also admit that you cannot defeat him. 
But nobody will say that the number two could defeat you if you get back your leg. 
I hope that this time you will understand my point and try at least to produce an argument that really counter it...
 
I think that you don't realise I literally provided the scan of Kun being bestowed the Sith Council's power thus their power was his from Cinnagar onwards. It wasn't just Ragnos's.
No you just provide a scan of Kun being touch by Marka Ragnos. Nothing here show the sith spirits bestowing their power to Kun. This is a lie fair and simple.

I literally just debunked the idea that Sith spirits are amped by a nexus in my discussion with BoD:
[...]
Nadd admits his powerless state to Jeth despite being on freaking Onderon. Because it is only an anchor.
I have read your debate with BoD and you never prooved that spirit cannot be amped by a nexus. You just uuse the DS sourcebook to explain that sith spirit use nexus as anchor in the physical world. But this isn't contradictory with them being amped by the nexus.

Nadd saying that he is powerless is absolutely false... he just managed to give Queen Amonoa and King Ommin an insane power. In addition to this, being powerless isn't the proof that he cannot do anything but rather that he isn't powerful enough. Not a proof of him not being amp.


This makes no sense whatsoever, the spirits already covered the entire planet:
Which of this two things make more sense:
- spirit will consume the whole planet/ sector of the planet where the fight takes place
- spirit will consume the whole space sector

Just think a minute, we know that the sorceress use a "complex Sith ritual that called on more power than any individual had asked of the dark side before" we know that the ritual failed and the resulting backlash destroyed every living being on the planet. 

It is pretty obvious that sith spirit that come here were less powerful than this powerful backlash. Indeed, because they are spirits, they are less powerful than their physical self. Their physical self fall under the quote of the sorceress calling "on more power than any individual had asked of the dark side before". 

It is also clear that the sith spirits were here when the destruction of Ambria happened thus being only part of the power of the ritual and not its full extend. This idea is reinforced by the sources that you gave us:

  • "the sorceress unleashed a wave of Force power that destroy every living thing on the planet and infused the remaining elements with deep dark side stains
  •  "their spirits remained, imbedded in the very land itself"

This quotes clearly shown that the dark side stains must be the sith spirits. 
In addition the fact that during hundreds of years the sorceress create a dark-side obelisk and thus gather power, it is logical for the dark side spirit to come on Ambria during this time and thus to be captured for the ritual rather than coming after the ritual.

However you think that this spirit despite being less powerful than backlash that destroy a planet will be able to consume a space sector... this is real non-sense!


We literally are told that Thon trapped all of the spirits at once:
Indeed, I can concede you this point.

However the quote that you give me show that Thon defeat this spirit not because of his strenght but rather with a strategy. Just remember that Thon himself admit that "he could not sustain his defense" and that he must use a "final desesperate strategy". 
Thank you  a lot for yourself destroying your scaling chain of Thon being above this sith spirits.

I don't need to counter it when Ant's long-standing posts regarding Revan's placement over Ziost!Vitiate are as solid as ever
I think that you didn't read my post where I already shown that Prime Chained Vaylin is in the league of Prime Revan and thus Unchained Vaylin is far above him... to bad for you.

*CONCLUSION*

You failed to proove that Prime Kun is worth this 9th place and you clearly show that you are of bad faith. Sadly this will just deserve the Kun case that is truly interresting and worse fighting for but not for this place.
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on February 15th 2020, 2:22 pm
Revan
Wandering Jedi
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on February 15th 2020, 2:31 pm
@xolthol
Kun's feats are result of darkside force nexus. Not to mention Star Forge Darth Malak>Exar Kun, which Revan defeated.
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on February 15th 2020, 2:34 pm
I would suggest simply tagging Xolthol instead of quoting the entire post, so not to make the thread painful to read.
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on February 15th 2020, 3:18 pm
My vote is still Revan
LadyKulvax
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on February 15th 2020, 3:32 pm
@xolthol wrote:@LadyKulvax

This will be my last response because it is now obvious to anyone that you are of incredibly bad faith...

Disagreeing with you equates to 'incredibly bad faith'. Utterly comical.

@xolthol wrote:
What is says is that the dark power was sufficient enough to defeat Skywalker. It isn't providing added context, because it's a statement of fact, and Luke twice over admits it required all of the Jedi of his academy, including him, to defeat Exar well after the fact.

As already explained in the threat, yes Luke Skywalker insanely hindered by both his mental restriction and the DS nexus of Yavin IV cannot defeat JA Exar Kun. But this version of Luke cannot defeat either DE Sidious or Darish Vol or Koro Zill or anyone else that have been provided for this 9th place.
I will draw a comparison for you:
Imagine a instant that you are a really good H2H fighter, lets say a champion of MMA. Lets also imagine that I cut one of your leg. You won't be at your prime and thus cannot compete with the number two of MMA (that in your previous shape you have defeated). Anyone can say that the number two is better than you and you can also admit that you cannot defeat him. 
But nobody will say that the number two could defeat you if you get back your leg. 
I hope that this time you will understand my point and try at least to produce an argument that really counter it...
 
Yeah, no, because Myth's blog is literally about finding every single scrap of reasoning he can find to disown Kun defeating Luke. Which he literally admitted to doing. But better yet, the book itself contradicts Myth directly:

Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

So not only is Luke stronger and more powerful than ever, his ability to use his wits a.k.a intelligence a.k.a wisdom, all of which requires mental strength, is also better than ever. I think I'll take the book telling us Luke is stronger than ever in every way over Myth's speculative blogspot post.

@xolthol wrote:
I think that you don't realise I literally provided the scan of Kun being bestowed the Sith Council's power thus their power was his from Cinnagar onwards. It wasn't just Ragnos's.
No you just provide a scan of Kun being touch by Marka Ragnos. Nothing here show the sith spirits bestowing their power to Kun. This is a lie fair and simple.

Marka Ragnos touches Kun and states that his power is all that should concern Kun as he does so. Then Kun and Ulic are stated to be radiating with more power than Aleema Keto's magic ever gave her, which leaves her in visible awe unlike her perception prior. 'Lie' my ass.

@xolthol wrote:
I literally just debunked the idea that Sith spirits are amped by a nexus in my discussion with BoD:
[...]
Nadd admits his powerless state to Jeth despite being on freaking Onderon. Because it is only an anchor.
I have read your debate with BoD and you never prooved that spirit cannot be amped by a nexus. You just uuse the DS sourcebook to explain that sith spirit use nexus as anchor in the physical world. But this isn't contradictory with them being amped by the nexus.

Nadd saying that he is powerless is absolutely false... he just managed to give Queen Amonoa and King Ommin an insane power. In addition to this, being powerless isn't the proof that he cannot do anything but rather that he isn't powerful enough. Not a proof of him not being amp.

Nadd's sarcophagus is what gave Amanoa power, hence why she literally died when Jeth sealed the sarcophagus' power away. King Ommin never relied on Nadd's power in the first place, Nadd merely taught him. Nadd is powerless by his own admittance and only after draining the power of Jedi ghosts does he show anything resembling what he's most well-known for.

@xolthol wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever, the spirits already covered the entire planet:
Which of this two things make more sense:
- spirit will consume the whole planet/ sector of the planet where the fight takes place
- spirit will consume the whole space sector

Just think a minute, we know that the sorceress use a "complex Sith ritual that called on more power than any individual had asked of the dark side before" we know that the ritual failed and the resulting backlash destroyed every living being on the planet. 

It is pretty obvious that sith spirit that come here were less powerful than this powerful backlash. Indeed, because they are spirits, they are less powerful than their physical self. Their physical self fall under the quote of the sorceress calling "on more power than any individual had asked of the dark side before". 

It is also clear that the sith spirits were here when the destruction of Ambria happened thus being only part of the power of the ritual and not its full extend. This idea is reinforced by the sources that you gave us:

  • "the sorceress unleashed a wave of Force power that destroy every living thing on the planet and infused the remaining elements with deep dark side stains
  •  "their spirits remained, imbedded in the very land itself"

This quotes clearly shown that the dark side stains must be the sith spirits. 
In addition the fact that during hundreds of years the sorceress create a dark-side obelisk and thus gather power, it is logical for the dark side spirit to come on Ambria during this time and thus to be captured for the ritual rather than coming after the ritual.

However you think that this spirit despite being less powerful than backlash that destroy a planet will be able to consume a space sector... this is real non-sense!

I don't think anything, this is what is directly stated to be within the spirits' collective power by the sources I have provided.

Furthermore, that the wave only covered Ambria does not equate to it being weaker than spirits spreading and consuming the sector they are in. Lmao.

You also don't seem to comprehend the fact that Exar Kun scales off of the Sith sorceress responsible, so in fact, your response would only result in Kun looking better not worse when combined with your following rebuttal regarding Thon's state.

@xolthol wrote:
We literally are told that Thon trapped all of the spirits at once:
Indeed, I can concede you this point.

However the quote that you give me show that Thon defeat this spirit not because of his strenght but rather with a strategy. Just remember that Thon himself admit that "he could not sustain his defense" and that he must use a "final desesperate strategy". 
Thank you a lot for yourself destroying your scaling chain of Thon being above this sith spirits.

I do wonder how you possibly came to this conclusion without considering what it means. So let me get this straight, you believe that Thon is weaker than the spirits he was stated to be capable of easily defeating at the beginning, because they were endlessly attacking him until he tired and he would've inevitably succumbed to exhaustion and death if he didn't change tactic? Thon at his weakest contained all of their power with a Wall of Light, a technique directly depending on his power.

This argument was frankly idiotic.

@xolthol wrote:
I don't need to counter it when Ant's long-standing posts regarding Revan's placement over Ziost!Vitiate are as solid as ever
I think that you didn't read my post where I already shown that Prime Chained Vaylin is in the league of Prime Revan and thus Unchained Vaylin is far above him... to bad for you.

Which isn't convincing compared to Ant's tried and tested Revan relativity to Vitiate argument.

@xolthol wrote:*CONCLUSION*

You failed to proove that Prime Kun is worth this 9th place and you clearly show that you are of bad faith. Sadly this will just deserve the Kun case that is truly interresting and worse fighting for but not for this place.

Nice way of excusing yourself from needing to reply further. But literally everything you've said is either baseless or wrong.
Jaggarath
Jaggarath
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 15th 2020, 4:00 pm
Reminder to all to not be needlessly vitriol to other users.
BoD
BoD
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 15th 2020, 8:43 pm
Current estimate of the votes (it's late here so scores might be wrong):

1. Mace Windu: 13.

2. Revan: 7.

3. Darth Caedus/Hidden One: 3.

4. Cilghal/Darish/Vol/Starkiller: 2.

5. Exar Kun/Gethzerion/Vaylin: 1.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 15th 2020, 8:56 pm
yeah, i might go for mace. he would get stronger than he when he was amped by sheev
Gianfi
Gianfi

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 16th 2020, 5:08 am
So Mace won? I voted for Caedus but I’m ok with that
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 16th 2020, 5:24 am
Mace
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 16th 2020, 5:31 am
Mace
Jake
Jake

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 16th 2020, 7:05 pm
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
@HeartoftheForce Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?
The G Canon Purist
The G Canon Purist
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 16th 2020, 7:18 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Jake wrote:@HeartoftheForce Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

The fucking OJ avatar as you type this comment makes it so much better. Never change Jake  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 3750555731 
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 1076326320
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Two
Level Two

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 16th 2020, 8:18 pm
Changing my vote for Vaylin
Wandering Jedi
Wandering Jedi

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

on February 16th 2020, 10:45 pm
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu - Page 6 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #9 - Mace Windu

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