- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 1st 2019, 6:56 pm
- DarthSkywalker0
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 1st 2019, 6:57 pm
Azronger wrote:Amazing post. The part where you used the novel blurb was the best part.
Couldn't agree more Az.
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 1st 2019, 6:59 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 See above.
- PeraltaEagle45
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 15th 2019, 9:59 am
I have been out of town all week and will be driving long distance all day today. Since the deadline for my next post is today, would you mind if I took an extra 2 days to finish and submit my response?
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 15th 2019, 4:46 pm
@SithArchaeologist You can have 4 if you'd like?
- PeraltaEagle45
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 16th 2019, 12:01 am
Appreciated.
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 16th 2019, 3:41 pm
Any time.
- PeraltaEagle45
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 18th 2019, 8:04 pm
Let's examine your arguments, shall we?
Rebuttal:
First off, you spend a great deal of time confusing knowledge and mastery: they are not one and the same. Regardless, I'd like to debunk the interpretations you make of a couple of these quotes.
You use this to try and say Luke actually believed Jacen could do almost anything when this is clearly some wry banter. Luke doesn't know what Caedus has been up to and he knows a lot of things that surprise Luke. That's all Luke is acknowledging here.
This is one of your more obvious reaches. This isn't saying that Luke doesn't understand Caedus' abilities, it's saying that he doesn't know what Caedus knows. In other words, he isn't sure what Caedus knows and what he doesn't. Not that Caedus knows things Luke doesn't understand.
Next, you move on to Caedus' pain tolerance. I don't have much to counter here, as it's no great secret that Caedus has one of the highest pain tolerances in the mythos. However, I do want to point out this feat for Kyp:
The disparity in pain tolerance between the two combatants here is not so great that Caedus will be walking off blows that kill Kyp.
As for Kyp's illusions, you make one very humorous claim:
You say this, yet your own quote says this (emphasis mine):
All his strength? Lol. Kyp is far more powerful than Mara, whom Caedus was able to successfully fool in combat. If fooling Luke takes all of Caedus' strength, even if fooling Kyp takes somewhat less than that, he won't be able to pull it off while Kyp is actively attacking him, not unless he wants to get bisected.
Now, to dispel the notion that Caedus is somehow "confirmed" to be Kyp's superior: let's not fool ourselves. We both know that character opinions are not infallible and can be overruled when there is clear evidence to the contrary. We have that here. Kyp is demonstrably far more powerful than Caedus. Unless you have an OOU source proclaiming his supremacy, we can safely ignore his accolades in this regard.
Lastly:
The quote you use is here:
This is one of the most commonly misinterpreted quotes I see. Luke is not saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, he's listing "expert duelists." It's similar to this quote from Maul:
This quote isn't saying that Koon and Windu are equals, it's saying that they would both test Maul. Likewise, your quote isn't saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, it's saying that Gaalan would be a challenge for both. Caedus being a superior duelist is far from confirmed fact.
I believe that is all I need to say. I will save any further arguments until you counter my opener.
Rebuttal:
First off, you spend a great deal of time confusing knowledge and mastery: they are not one and the same. Regardless, I'd like to debunk the interpretations you make of a couple of these quotes.
DC77 wrote:Luke even believed Jacen could do just about anything:Bloodlines wrote:"Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days."
You use this to try and say Luke actually believed Jacen could do almost anything when this is clearly some wry banter. Luke doesn't know what Caedus has been up to and he knows a lot of things that surprise Luke. That's all Luke is acknowledging here.
DC77 wrote:Jaina backs this up, stating that even Luke doesn't understand the full range of Jacen's powers:Invincible wrote:Even Luke did not know the full of extent of Caedus's powers, and Jaina had no illusions about being her brother's equal in terms of Force strength.
This is one of your more obvious reaches. This isn't saying that Luke doesn't understand Caedus' abilities, it's saying that he doesn't know what Caedus knows. In other words, he isn't sure what Caedus knows and what he doesn't. Not that Caedus knows things Luke doesn't understand.
Next, you move on to Caedus' pain tolerance. I don't have much to counter here, as it's no great secret that Caedus has one of the highest pain tolerances in the mythos. However, I do want to point out this feat for Kyp:
Jedi Academy III: Champions of the Force wrote:‘Somehow Kyp had crammed himself inside the small volume of the message cylinder, a vessel barely large enough to hold a child. But Kyp had managed to crush his legs, fold his arms until the bones snapped, pressed down on his rib cage until his ribs cracked, compacting himself.’
The disparity in pain tolerance between the two combatants here is not so great that Caedus will be walking off blows that kill Kyp.
As for Kyp's illusions, you make one very humorous claim:
DC77 wrote: He's been able to fool force users more powerful than Kyp, such as Luke...
You say this, yet your own quote says this (emphasis mine):
Bloodlines wrote:It was an exhausting maneuver, nothing beyond him when dealing with ordinary people, but something that took all his strength when deceiving a Jedi Master of Luke's stature.
All his strength? Lol. Kyp is far more powerful than Mara, whom Caedus was able to successfully fool in combat. If fooling Luke takes all of Caedus' strength, even if fooling Kyp takes somewhat less than that, he won't be able to pull it off while Kyp is actively attacking him, not unless he wants to get bisected.
Now, to dispel the notion that Caedus is somehow "confirmed" to be Kyp's superior: let's not fool ourselves. We both know that character opinions are not infallible and can be overruled when there is clear evidence to the contrary. We have that here. Kyp is demonstrably far more powerful than Caedus. Unless you have an OOU source proclaiming his supremacy, we can safely ignore his accolades in this regard.
Lastly:
DC77 wrote:Jacen being a better swordsman is a borderline fact. Luke compares Kyp to Kyle Katarn in this field:
The quote you use is here:
Backlash wrote:Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duellist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn.
This is one of the most commonly misinterpreted quotes I see. Luke is not saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, he's listing "expert duelists." It's similar to this quote from Maul:
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. That would be a true test of his skill.
This quote isn't saying that Koon and Windu are equals, it's saying that they would both test Maul. Likewise, your quote isn't saying that Kyp and Kyle are equals, it's saying that Gaalan would be a challenge for both. Caedus being a superior duelist is far from confirmed fact.
I believe that is all I need to say. I will save any further arguments until you counter my opener.
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 18th 2019, 8:23 pm
Damn, exactly the kind of rebuttal that I was thinking when I read his post. Nice counter.
- GuestGuest
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 18th 2019, 8:33 pm
Good post.
- MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 18th 2019, 10:31 pm
The use of "Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days." As an actual argument for Caedus made me cringe. Real hard.
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 18th 2019, 10:34 pm
Honestly, yeah.
- xoltholLevel Five
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 12:50 am
gweed post...
- MasterCilghalLevel Three
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 1:32 am
I’m not very impressed with this response honestly.
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 1:43 am
Caedus has just died in everyone's hearts, de luke scaling is faulty. I digress, It's not the debaters that restrict the quality here, though DC is riding right on the line of believable and insane, It's the matchup as a whole, njo muddies the waters for any proper debate because rather than debating things like lightsaber skill, forceknowledge, or application of abilities, it basically becomes a primitive phallus measuring contest of who can make the most ridiculous wanktastic scaling chain based off the most supporting evidence. The same goes for debating TOR, and while some like SKILLZ and Ant can make it entertainment to watch, the rest of the "debate" falls on deaf ears because the amount with which one can argue falls under such limited standards
- AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 2:46 am
That's the most ironic thing you've posted yet.
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 11:12 am
Shit stuff.
- Spoiler:
- JK, really good post, will respond soon.
- GuestGuest
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 11:32 am
In-sidiousvader wrote:Caedus has just died in everyone's hearts, de luke scaling is faulty. I digress, It's not the debaters that restrict the quality here, though DC is riding right on the line of believable and insane, It's the matchup as a whole, njo muddies the waters for any proper debate because rather than debating things like lightsaber skill, forceknowledge, or application of abilities, it basically becomes a primitive phallus measuring contest of who can make the most ridiculous wanktastic scaling chain based off the most supporting evidence. The same goes for debating TOR, and while some like SKILLZ and Ant can make it entertainment to watch, the rest of the "debate" falls on deaf ears because the amount with which one can argue falls under such limited standards
AP perfectly summed this up:
LadyKulvax wrote:That's the most ironic thing you've posted yet.
- MPModerator | Champion of Darkness
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 11:36 am
Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days.
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 19th 2019, 11:48 am
I don't recall asking for your opinion on anything in my post, nor did I ask for you to troll the thread.
- DarthAnt66Moderator
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 21st 2019, 7:54 pm
Great post @SithArchaeologist.
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 21st 2019, 9:37 pm
Decent post... but try jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days.
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 22nd 2019, 6:48 pm
HP's pissed you stole him and MP's joke ISV.
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 22nd 2019, 6:56 pm
He did not see the genuis of linking the two together to form a cohesive artistic form of humor.DC77 wrote:HP's pissed you stole him and MP's joke ISV.
As a blue guy from Avatar once said
"To defeat an enemy you must know them, not simply thier battle tactics, but thier history, philosophy, art."
- NevesYtneves (DC77)Level Seven
Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)
June 25th 2019, 7:10 pm
Expect something to drop Today, Thursday or Saturday, and if I'm extra lazy Sunday.
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