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Vaelias
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Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

January 29th 2021, 8:33 pm
@iamthatguy

Ok yeh but it is unclear when he became a 9, it is entirely possible and even likely it was during his "Zonakin" state, seeing as how he handled Windu in the ROTS Video Game, so it looks pretty likely he became a 9 on the invisible hand

Force power is directly correlated with dueling via augmentation.
Yes but nothing suggests the tier system alone factors in Augmentation, but even so nothing changes

I'm saying the quotes are referring to Anakin as a Jedi, as his lightside self
that is literally your head canon, they just refer to Anakin, Anakin is an 8 at the beginning and becomes a 9 very likely during his fight with Dooku where he unlocks new ability, all quotes referring to Anakin's power are referring to Anakin as a Jedi and would not exclude his dark side moments, else Mace's performance against Sidious would also not be factored in, unless u wanna argue Windu is a 10 which he clearly isn't, you cant exclude people from quotes because they were using the darkside


Lightside Anakin is an 8, darkside Anakin is a 9.
Debatable when he became a 9 but you were arguing that All Anakins most powerful quotes refer to Anakin when he wasn't using the darkside, no they just refer to Anakins power, the notion that all those quotes exclude Anakins darkside moments (which he has many of) is just your head canon

As I said, the quotes are making a distinction between lightside Anakin and darkside Anakin, regardless of if he's a Jedi.

no they aren't lol, there is no distinction

This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue.
- Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
-Revenge of the Sith

these are two examples of the supremacy quotes you are claiming exclude Anakin's Darkside moments, show me where the distinction is.
keep in mind there is a difference between Anakin just tapping into the darkside and Anakin when he was a Sith, is it possible you are confusing the two? because they are not really the same power level, for example KFV would still be more powerful than Zonakin or any other time Anakin tapped into the darkside

Because Gillard called Jedi Anakin an 8.
No he didn't he said Anakin was an 8 at the beginning of the Movie

If he was referring to Zonakin as a tier 8, that would literally make no sense.
You were originally talking about Anakin's supremacy quotes not just Gillards tier system, my response was according to that

You wrote:they all refer to Jedi Anakin, who isn't drawing on the darkside.
in response to the Anakin > /= Yoda Supremacy Quotes, as ive shown above they make NO distinction between Anakin's light and dark side, just Anakin's base power which would include his darkside bursts

"most powerful" don't always refer to actualized power.
Yes they do, if it means potential it will say the word 'potential' there is no basis for that

Give me sources which explicitly say Anakin as a Jedi is > Yoda or Windu in actualized power.
Ok, well there's the two above that I provided,
Then...
- Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."
Revenge of the Sith wrote:Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."
Force Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker's rise to power was astonishing. He went from being a slave on Tatooine to one of the most powerful Jedi ever.
ROTS Movie Story Book wrote:Many years from now, Luke and Leia Skywalker, offspring of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, would understand their true destiny
Nick Gillard - Episode III wrote:"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."
Official Figurine Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful Jedi the galaxy had ever known . . . Anakin was also peerless in combat, invincible against any opponent.
and that should be enough to convince you of Anakin's supremacy and rough parity with Yoda

Firstly, many people, including Kenobi himself scale over the theta storm feat since it happened 2 years prior to ROTS.
Well if Anakin can do it then and Yoda cant, while Anakin grows stronger and Yoda declines in those 2 years it makes the feat even more impressive, but anyway feats are meaningless when Anakin directly scales to Yoda per like 50 sources lol

Because every single one of them has better feats than Drallig?
Again meaningless when he scales above them all by having "Unprecedented skill with a lightsaber" and name a feat any of those B team guys have that is better than ragdolling KF, ill wait...

Bringing up game Drallig is meaningless since he doesn't exist in continuity anyway, and he didn't ragdoll KFV.
He does, the ROTS Video game is approved by George Lucas and is C-Canon

- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Dec. 2005 - posts from the \"Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums wrote:”...continuity ”C” canon which is pretty much everything else. ” By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case.

This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it."

So yes he does, and he is Drallig's Prime iteration so we use him, plus this thread is literally about ROTS game Drallig, so idk why it is "Meaningless"
and yes he did ragdoll KF lol dueled him pushed him back blasted him out a window and knocked him on the ground and was only beaten by a cheap shot



In potential power, not actualized power lol.
No basis for that at all, that is your head canon once again, read it again, where does it say potential.. it doesn't
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Anakin10
Maul was stated to have higher potential than Sidious, so that further confirms that the notion this quote is referring to potential isn't true,
"He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor"

I know you're going to bring up that "unparalled force power" Jedi temple accolade and say it applies to Sidious and Yoda, when it is clearly only talking about the Jedi in the temple.
Nope, im not actually I would agree with you there, rather Sidious conceding inferiority to Vader
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Sidiou11
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Conces10
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Conces11

When he is defeated he laughs and basically says "good luck defeating Vader lol"

Lucas himself even implied Anakin could not have beaten Sidious in ROTS, he said "If Anakin hadn't got all beaten up, he could have beat the Emperor." Meaning post Mustafar.
I don't see why that would imply he cant beat Sidious, rather he could have but no longer can seeing as he got all beaten up, this quote from Lucas should further clear up some confusion
George Lucas wrote:”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has
Lucas clearly states Anakin lost the power the emperor had when he was burned up  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

January 30th 2021, 1:54 am
Ok yeh but it is unclear when he became a 9, it is entirely possible and even likely it was during his "Zonakin" state, seeing as how he handled Windu in the ROTS Video Game, so it looks pretty likely he became a 9 on the invisible hand

I agree, which is why I said it's unlikely for darkside Anakin (Zonakin) to be an 8, as your stance on the quotes would suggest.

Yes but nothing suggests the tier system alone factors in Augmentation, but even so nothing changes

Dueling is like 90% augmentation and 10% skill, it's definitely factored in.


that is literally your head canon, they just refer to Anakin, Anakin is an 8 at the beginning and becomes a 9 very likely during his fight with Dooku where he unlocks new ability, all quotes referring to Anakin's power are referring to Anakin as a Jedi and would not exclude his dark side moments, else Mace's performance against Sidious would also not be factored in, unless u wanna argue Windu is a 10 which he clearly isn't, you cant exclude people from quotes because they were using the darkside

It's not though , because before ROTS Anakin was still an 8, he only reached 9 on the IH, and then again during Knightfall.  Windu and Tiin claiming Anakin is the strongest Jedi is further backs me up since they never seen Anakin go Zonakin, so in there eyes he's still a tier 8, rendering all the Jedi Anakin>Yoda quotes contradictory to Gillard's ranking.

Debatable when he became a 9 but you were arguing that All Anakins most powerful quotes refer to Anakin when he wasn't using the darkside, no they just refer to Anakins power, the notion that all those quotes exclude Anakins darkside moments (which he has many of) is just your head canon

It's not really debatable.  He became a 9 on the IH, and then fully embraced the darkside during Knightfall cementing his place as a tier 9.

And as I said, all the supremacy quotes come before Anakin actually turned a 9 per Gillard, so they are contradictory.

As I said, the quotes are making a distinction between lightside Anakin and darkside Anakin, regardless of if he's a Jedi.

no they aren't lol, there is no distinction

They do because Anakin had never embraced the darkside like he did on the IH previously.  

This makes Anakin, in effect, a Jedi Master, a rank that Anakin, with his unprecedented power in the Force, feels has been long overdue.
- Star Wars Miniatures: Ultimate Missions: Revenge of the Sith

This is Anakin Skywalker:


The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.
-Revenge of the Sith

these are two examples of the supremacy quotes you are claiming exclude Anakin's Darkside moments, show me where the distinction is.

They are literally referring to Jedi Anakin, why would they include Anakin tapping into the darkside?

keep in mind there is a difference between Anakin just tapping into the darkside and Anakin when he was a Sith, is it possible you are confusing the two? because they are not really the same power level, for example KFV would still be more powerful than Zonakin or any other time Anakin tapped into the darkside

I know there's a difference, but explain to me why a quote praising Anakin's JEDI POWERS would also include his darkside powers?

No he didn't he said Anakin was an 8 at the beginning of the Movie

Yup, but he said the difference between 8 and 9 for Anakin is the darkside.  So logically we can conclude Jedi Anakin is an 8, while darkside (Sith) Anakin is a 9.

You were originally talking about Anakin's supremacy quotes not just Gillards tier system, my response was according to that

I tied it into the Gillard system to show they were incorrect.  Claiming Jedi Anakin (who is a tier 8) is > Yoda (who is a tier 9) contradicts Gillard's system.

in response to the Anakin > /= Yoda Supremacy Quotes, as ive shown above they make NO distinction between Anakin's light and dark side, just Anakin's base power which would include his darkside bursts

You haven't shown any reason why accolades praising Anakin's Jedi powers would also be praising his Sith powers.

Yes they do, if it means potential it will say the word 'potential' there is no basis for that

Uh, no they don't?

Ok, well there's the two above that I provided,
Then...

- Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

Contradicted since Jedi Anakin is noted as a tier 8 by Gillard, while Yoda and Windu are 9s.  Also arguably isn't certainty.

Revenge of the Sith wrote:Most of them couldn't hide what they're thinking from a brain-damaged blindworm, let alone the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy."

See above.

Force Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker's rise to power was astonishing. He went from being a slave on Tatooine to one of the most powerful Jedi ever.

One of the most powerful Jedi is not the same as THE most powerful Jedi.

ROTS Movie Story Book wrote:Many years from now, Luke and Leia Skywalker, offspring of the most powerful Jedi who ever lived, would understand their true destiny
'

Again, contradicted since it's solely referring to Jedi Anakin who is confirmed a tier 8.

Nick Gillard - Episode III wrote:"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."

Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

Official Figurine Collection wrote:Anakin Skywalker was the most powerful Jedi the galaxy had ever known . . . Anakin was also peerless in combat, invincible against any opponent.

See above, though this is just obvious hyperbole.

and that should be enough to convince you of Anakin's supremacy and rough parity with Yoda

Yeah no, since Jedi Anakin is confirmed a tier 8 by Gillard (which all those quotes refer too) and George saying Sith Anakin (a tier 9) could only beat Sidious post-Mustafar, implying further training.

Well if Anakin can do it then and Yoda cant, while Anakin grows stronger and Yoda declines in those 2 years it makes the feat even more impressive, but anyway feats are meaningless when Anakin directly scales to Yoda per like 50 sources lol

Kenobi's opinion that Yoda can't do it isn't fact.  Secondly, Yoda didn't decline, he actually improved since he wasn't confirmed a tier 9 during AOTC (while Sidious was) and only during ROTS was he a 9.

Those 50 quotes are also contradicted on the basis that Jedi Anakin is confirmed a tier 8 by G canon while Yoda is a tier 9.


Again meaningless when he scales above them all by having "Unprecedented skill with a lightsaber" and name a feat any of those B team guys have that is better than ragdolling KF, ill wait...

Wow, you guys on this site put WAY too much emphasis on accolades.  Almost every top tier SW character has that.  Maul has those as well, guess Maul is >Yoda in sabers right?

He does, the ROTS Video game is approved by George Lucas and is C-Canon

Catching someone offguard with a ragdoll isn't the same as ripping through their force barrier and ragdolling him.

The movie being G canon overrides the game, therefore it never happened in continuity.

- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Dec. 2005 - posts from the \"Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums wrote:”...continuity ”C” canon which is pretty much everything else. ” By everything else I mean EVERYthing else. Novels, comics, junior novels, videogames, trading card games, roleplaying games, toys, websites, television. As I've mentioned earlier, any contradictions that arise are dealt on a case-by-case.

This has been our general approach to continuity since we began using the Holocron database to track it."

So yes he does, and he is Drallig's Prime iteration so we use him, plus this thread is literally about ROTS game Drallig, so idk why it is "Meaningless"
and yes he did ragdoll KF lol dueled him pushed him back blasted him out a window and knocked him on the ground and was only beaten by a cheap shot

We're not comparing game Drallig to the B-team, since game Drallig doesn't exist since he's overruled by G canon.  We're comparing non game Drallig, to the B team, and he just doesn't stack up.

And Anakin was literally spinning his saber when he got pushed, that's not ragdolling, at least not in the way you think it is.  He didn't dominate Anakin, he caught him off guard.



No basis for that at all, that is your head canon once again, read it again, where does it say potential.. it doesn't

Actually, it's your head canon.  Prove to me that it doesn't refer to potential, since it's outright contradicted by Gillard himself.

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Anakin10
Maul was stated to have higher potential than Sidious, so that further confirms that the notion this quote is referring to potential isn't true,
"He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor"

Yeah but at that time Maul's potential wasn't revealed to be above Sidious'.  It was only until 2012 when WoDM came out that we found out Maul had Sidious+ potential.

So no basis it still isn't referring to potential, especially since as I said, Lucas said Anakin could only beat Anakin after Mustafar.

Nope, im not actually I would agree with you there, rather Sidious conceding inferiority to Vader
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Sidiou11
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Conces10
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Conces11

When he is defeated he laughs and basically says "good luck defeating Vader lol"

How does him saying "good luck defeating Vader" imply Vader is superior to Sidious?  That is Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching.

I don't see why that would imply he cant beat Sidious, rather he could have but no longer can seeing as he got all beaten up, this quote from Lucas should further clear up some confusion

He said "If Anakin didn't get all beaten up on Mustafar, he could've beat the Emperor too." If he wanted to say Mustafar Vader, he would have said Anakin before his fight with Kenobi.  He purposefully said Anakin after Mustafar to make it a point that Anakin couldn't beat the Emperor on Mustafar.

George Lucas wrote:”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has
Lucas clearly states Anakin lost the power the emperor had when he was burned up  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181

Lucas is saying Vader becoming "infinitely more powerful" are the powers the Emperor has, not that he had the power of the Emperor.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

January 30th 2021, 12:35 pm
@iamthatguy

I agree, which is why I said it's unlikely for darkside Anakin (Zonakin) to be an 8, as your stance on the quotes would suggest.
Dooku was an 8 and Yoda was 9 in Attack of the Clones and they were still equals in force power, and Dooku still contends very well

Dueling is like 90% augmentation and 10% skill, it's definitely factored in.
no evidence that its not referring to that 10%

It's not though , because before ROTS Anakin was still an 8, he only reached 9 on the IH, and then again during Knightfall.  Windu and Tiin claiming Anakin is the strongest Jedi is further backs me up since they never seen Anakin go Zonakin, so in there eyes he's still a tier 8, rendering all the Jedi Anakin>Yoda quotes contradictory to Gillard's ranking.
8 or not Anakin still shares rough parity with Yoda in force power, Its likely he maintains his 9 status after Zonakin anyway judging by his fight with Windu

It's not really debatable.  He became a 9 on the IH, and then fully embraced the darkside during Knightfall cementing his place as a tier 9.
Well it is debatable whether he remained a 9 up until his fall to the Darkside where he became an even higher 9, as I said this looks likely given his fight with Windu

And as I said, all the supremacy quotes come before Anakin actually turned a 9 per Gillard, so they are contradictory.
Not really, a lot of the quotes are OOU and just refer to Anakin in general, meaning Anakin has rough parity with Yoda, Gillard has said Anakin > Yoda in one of the sources I provided for u in my last post anyway

They do because Anakin had never embraced the darkside like he did on the IH previously.
He taps into the darkside multiple times, granted probably not to the extent he does on IH but the quotes themselves make no distinction and there are no contradictions anywhere, everything adds up fine

They are literally referring to Jedi Anakin, why would they include Anakin tapping into the darkside?
I know there's a difference, but explain to me why a quote praising Anakin's JEDI POWERS would also include his darkside powers?

You were the one arguing that Jedi Anakin wasn't close to Yoda, or do you concede on that now ? and because Anakin tapping into the Darkside is still Jedi Anakin lol he's just tapping into the Darkside, Its refering to Anakins power in the force which includes all aspects of it, as I say, Does that mean Mace's quotes don't apply to Mace tapping into the darkside every time he uses Vapaad now ? they just refers to their general power, its simple

Yup, but he said the difference between 8 and 9 for Anakin is the darkside.  So logically we can conclude Jedi Anakin is an 8, while darkside (Sith) Anakin is a 9.
Yep but as I explained above its likely Anakin maintained that level 9 after IH

I tied it into the Gillard system to show they were incorrect.  Claiming Jedi Anakin (who is a tier 8) is > Yoda (who is a tier 9) contradicts Gillard's system.
No because the Gillard system is purely combative ability, not over all force power, as I mentioned look to Dooku and Yoda in AOTC

You haven't shown any reason why accolades praising Anakin's Jedi powers would also be praising his Sith powers.
I never claimed they referred to his Sith powers, I claimed they would not exclude Anakin's brief dark side moments, and they make no distinction, they only refer to Anakins over all power as a Jedi

Uh, no they don't?
AWESOME COUNTER!!!

Show me evidence for the quotes referring to potential, the wording clearly indicated they are referring to Power he possesses

Contradicted since Jedi Anakin is noted as a tier 8 by Gillard, while Yoda and Windu are 9s.
Zonakin is still a Jedi and is a 9 as you admitted, Anakin is only an 8 at the beginning, anyway its purely combat ability, Anakin beats Mace in a duel anyway so ROTS Anakin became a 9 on IH then remains a 9 and is still a Jedi, Jedi Anakin in most of ROTS is 9. 0 things are contradicted lol

Also arguably isn't certainty.
Huh? how?

One of the most powerful Jedi is not the same as THE most powerful Jedi.
But it certainly works well along side his many other "most powerful Jedi" quotes

Again, contradicted since it's solely referring to Jedi Anakin who is confirmed a tier 8.
The Tier system is purley combat ability and not over all force power, that is where your whole argument falls apart cos it is based purely on that, Tier system doesn't contradict any power quotes

Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.
GL never said that, he said Anakin was no longer as powerful as the Emperor when he got burned up, those aren't the same thing

Yeah no, since Jedi Anakin is confirmed a tier 8 by Gillard (which all those quotes refer too) and George saying Sith Anakin (a tier 9) could only beat Sidious post-Mustafar, implying further training.
you are going in circles, and you don't understand the tier system, it does not refer to overall force power, thus contradicts nothing

Kenobi's opinion that Yoda can't do it isn't fact.
0 reason not to believe him

Secondly, Yoda didn't decline, he actually improved since he wasn't confirmed a tier 9 during AOTC (while Sidious was) and only during ROTS was he a 9.
He was never mentioned, doesn't mean he improved when all indicators show he declined, Yoda is on a slow decline since he was roughly 700, no evidence to show he improved between AOTC and ROTS, there is only theory with no evidence

those 50 quotes are also contradicted on the basis that Jedi Anakin is confirmed a tier 8 by G canon while Yoda is a tier 9.
again learn what the tier system actually is

Wow, you guys on this site put WAY too much emphasis on accolades.  Almost every top tier SW character has that.  Maul has those as well, guess Maul is >Yoda in sabers right?
well there is more than just that, watch that Video Respect thread, and Maul is on a level with Yoda in saber skill yes

Catching someone offguard with a ragdoll isn't the same as ripping through their force barrier and ragdolling him.
I agree, but Drallig straight up tanked Vaders push then blasted him out a window, and then knocks him down on the floor again

he movie being G canon overrides the game, therefore it never happened in continuity.
false, it is still C-Canon, "any contradictions are dealt on a case by case", prime Drallig is Video game Drallig and we use prime iterations, furthermore this thread is literally about VG Drallig

We're comparing non game Drallig, to the B team, and he just doesn't stack up.
even non game Drallig is superior to all of B team
he is the most Dangerous of the order, one of the most Vital players in the jedi order as a whole, has mastery over all 7 forms and is unparalleled with a lightsaber, Movie Drallig is one of the most powerful Jedi of the prequel era, Game Drallig is equals with Yoda, both versions of Drallig are above B team

He didn't dominate Anakin, he caught him off guard.
He had the upper hand for the whole fight he bested Vader in the saber lock tanked his push and blasted him out the window, spinning his saber or not still an incredible feat for Drallig breaking Vaders force shield
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Force_10

Prove to me that it doesn't refer to potential
I don't have to just read it lol the context is very clear, they all read, "THE most powerful not"  "could have been the most powerful"

you are the one opposing the quotes clear meaning you are the one that has to prove it!


It was only until 2012 when WoDM came out that we found out Maul had Sidious+ potential
We know from TPM material that Maul was trained as Sidious' apprentice and in true Rule of Two fashion was intended to surpass Sidious, else he wouldn't have been chosen as his apprentice, all WODM does is further confirm this

especially since as I said, Lucas said Anakin could only beat Anakin after Mustafar.
Yes... you said that, GL never even said that lol

So no basis it still isn't referring to potential
lol, the wording is plain and simple, "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" that idea is silly the meaning is as clear as day lol

How does him saying "good luck defeating Vader" imply Vader is superior to Sidious?

Well after his defeat he is laughing saying Yeh good look on Vader you are gonna die basically, again that's kinda clear

That is Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching.
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 No, what is Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching is saying " He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" and all those other Vader/Anakin quotes are referring to potential and not power LOOOL

He purposefully said Anakin after Mustafar to make it a point that Anakin couldn't beat the Emperor on Mustafar.
hang on didnt you literally just say ...

@iamthatguy wrote:Lucas said Anakin could only beat Anakin after Mustafar.
@iamthatguy wrote:Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

Huh? seems the only thing that's contradictory is you lol not any of these binding quotes Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187

Lucas is saying Vader becoming "infinitely more powerful" are the powers the Emperor has, not that he had the power of the Emperor.
bro come on now the meaning of the quote is as clear as day, just concede, its fine

" if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has"
They are "his powers" which are "the powers the emperor has" he possesses the same powers/is as powerful as the emperor, that is CRYSTAL CLEAR
Decimus
Decimus

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 3rd 2021, 1:50 pm
KFV was messing around, he doesn't have parity with Serra Keto who is a Knight yet he prolonged the fight to mock her.

Essentially Drallig abused KFV's CIS however failed to react to a saber throw and died.

Anyway. Yoda is 2 tiers above Drallig - a stomp gap - he wins.

Yoda<-8-6<-Cin Drallig 6-4 4-2 2-0
Vaelias
Vaelias

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 3rd 2021, 2:17 pm
@Decimus


KFV was messing around, he doesn't have parity with Serra Keto who is a Knight yet he prolonged the fight to mock her.

Yes against Serra, not Drallig


Essentially Drallig abused KFV's CIS however failed to react to a saber throw and died.

He contended and dominated KF fair and square


Anyway. Yoda is 2 tiers above Drallig - a stomp gap - he wins.

You're legit using your stupid head canon tier system in debates LOL at that  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187


Yoda<-8-6<-Cin Drallig 6-4 4-2 2-0
No one knows wtf that means stop using your own stupid head canon shit to explain shit 
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 3rd 2021, 2:20 pm
These answers are beginning to look like phonebooks. Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1076326320
Vaelias
Vaelias

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 3rd 2021, 2:32 pm
@KingKopecz wrote:These answers are beginning to look like phonebooks. Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1076326320
 
Call the man Cin Drallig at  0151<-8-6<-6-4 4-2 2-0
Vaelias
Vaelias

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 3rd 2021, 9:28 pm
Vegak wrote:Anyway. Yoda is 2 tiers above Drallig - a stomp gap - he wins.

You are 2 tiers above retard
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 4th 2021, 11:23 am
Dooku was an 8 and Yoda was 9 in Attack of the Clones and they were still equals in force power, and Dooku still contends very well

Yoda wasn't mentioned as being a tier 9 until ROTS, unlike Sidious who was mentioned as a tier 9 during AOTC. Also, Yoda didn't even attack Dooku offensively, Dooku was the one attacking Yoda, who dismissed his attacks.

no evidence that its not referring to that 10%

No evidence it isn't referring to the 90% Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1220391476 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1220391476

8 or not Anakin still shares rough parity with Yoda in force power, Its likely he maintains his 9 status after Zonakin anyway judging by his fight with Windu

How does Anakin have parity with Yoda in force power?

Well it is debatable whether he remained a 9 up until his fall to the Darkside where he became an even higher 9, as I said this looks likely given his fight with Windu

So a non Canon fight? Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 3363707401

Not really, a lot of the quotes are OOU and just refer to Anakin in general, meaning Anakin has rough parity with Yoda, Gillard has said Anakin > Yoda in one of the sources I provided for u in my last post anyway

Cool, Lucas has said Anakin couldn't beat Sidious, who Yoda is >. Lucas>Gillard.

He taps into the darkside multiple times, granted probably not to the extent he does on IH but the quotes themselves make no distinction and there are no contradictions anywhere, everything adds up fine

Not really because he's only explicitly confirmed as 9 with darkside during ROTS. Before that he's still an 8 even when tapping into the darkside, putting him below a tier 9 like Yoda.

You were the one arguing that Jedi Anakin wasn't close to Yoda, or do you concede on that now ? and because Anakin tapping into the Darkside is still Jedi Anakin lol he's just tapping into the Darkside, Its refering to Anakins power in the force which includes all aspects of it, as I say, Does that mean Mace's quotes don't apply to Mace tapping into the darkside every time he uses Vapaad now ? they just refers to their general power, its simple

Alright let's go with that then. So pre-ROTS Anakin who taps into the darkside is > Yoda, despite not being a tier 9. See how that doesn't work?

Yep but as I explained above its likely Anakin maintained that level 9 after IH

During Knightfall sure, but he wasn't actively using the darkside the entire time after the IH fight.

I never claimed they referred to his Sith powers, I claimed they would not exclude Anakin's brief dark side moments, and they make no distinction, they only refer to Anakins over all power as a Jedi

Anakin's darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, you're playing the semantics game.

AWESOME COUNTER!!!

Show me evidence for the quotes referring to potential, the wording clearly indicated they are referring to Power he possesses

Because Lucas literally confirms Anakin couldn't have beaten Sidious during ROTS...

Zonakin is still a Jedi and is a 9 as you admitted, Anakin is only an 8 at the beginning, anyway its purely combat ability, Anakin beats Mace in a duel anyway so ROTS Anakin became a 9 on IH then remains a 9 and is still a Jedi, Jedi Anakin in most of ROTS is 9. 0 things are contradicted lol

Jedi Anakin's powers are an 8. Zonakin is not using Jedi powers, he's tapping into the darkside.

Using a non Canon fight to support the idea that Anakin remained a tier 9 after the IH fight is a terrible argument.

Huh? how?

Because the English language says so. Arguably implies there is still doubt, certainty is void of doubt.

But it certainly works well along side his many other "most powerful Jedi" quotes

And TPM Maul is one of the most powerful Sith Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181

The Tier system is purley combat ability and not over all force power, that is where your whole argument falls apart cos it is based purely on that, Tier system doesn't contradict any power quotes

Combat ability and force power is one in the same. Combat ability relies on force aug. If the tiering was purely referring to dueling skill, someone like TPM Maul would be above ROTS Sidious.

GL never said that, he said Anakin was no longer as powerful as the Emperor when he got burned up, those aren't the same thing

"If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."
Source: Making of Revenge of the Sith


you are going in circles, and you don't understand the tier system, it does not refer to overall force power, thus contradicts nothing

Lol I don't think YOU understand the tier system. It doesn't refer to solely combative ability since Anakin was still mentally an 8 but combatively a 9 via Gillard.

0 reason not to believe him

Because multiple force users weaker than Yoda scale over the theta storm feat, Kenobi is one of them.

He was never mentioned, doesn't mean he improved when all indicators show he declined, Yoda is on a slow decline since he was roughly 700, no evidence to show he improved between AOTC and ROTS, there is only theory with no evidence

Yup, he was never mentioned as a tier 9 during AOTC, while Sidious was. Making ROTS Yoda>AOTC Yoda via Yoda going from an 8 to a 9.

again learn what the tier system actually is

It's certainly not what you think it is.

well there is more than just that, watch that Video Respect thread, and Maul is on a level with Yoda in saber skill yes

Cool, so you're acknowledging that it's referring to Drallig's skill right? Now prove to me Drallig has force aug rivalling any of the main characters during the PT without using the ROTS game.

I agree, but Drallig straight up tanked Vaders push then blasted him out a window, and then knocks him down on the floor again

And Vader would have tanked him to had he not been caught off guard.

false, it is still C-Canon, "any contradictions are dealt on a case by case", prime Drallig is Video game Drallig and we use prime iterations, furthermore this thread is literally about VG Drallig

This thread is about game Drallig, but we were talking about movie Drallig.

even non game Drallig is superior to all of B team
he is the most Dangerous of the order, one of the most Vital players in the jedi order as a whole, has mastery over all 7 forms and is unparalleled with a lightsaber, Movie Drallig is one of the most powerful Jedi of the prequel era, Game Drallig is equals with Yoda, both versions of Drallig are above B team

You realize every single member of the B team has quotes like that besides the mastery over 7 forms right?

He had the upper hand for the whole fight he bested Vader in the saber lock tanked his push and blasted him out the window, spinning his saber or not still an incredible feat for Drallig breaking Vaders force shield
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Force_10

Breaking an unsuspecting opponents force shield isn't impressive in the same way landing a punch on someone who isn't suspecting it isn't impressive.

I don't have to just read it lol the context is very clear, they all read, "THE most powerful not"  "could have been the most powerful"

And what is there to suggest "the most powerful" is referring to his actual power, instead of his potential.

you are the one opposing the quotes clear meaning you are the one that has to prove it!

I have, since Jedi Anakin is a tier 8, which puts him below Yoda and Mace.

We know from TPM material that Maul was trained as Sidious' apprentice and in true Rule of Two fashion was intended to surpass Sidious, else he wouldn't have been chosen as his apprentice, all WODM does is further confirm this

Fair enough, though it still doesn't mean Anakin was equal with Sidious, just that he was closer to Sidious than he was to someone like TPM Maul or ROTS Dooku, which I agree with.

Yes... you said that, GL never even said that lol

I sourced it above.

lol, the wording is plain and simple, "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" that idea is silly the meaning is as clear as day lol

Are you reading what you're posting? "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" clearly means he isn't as powerful as the Emperor, but he is approaching.

How does him saying "good luck defeating Vader" imply Vader is superior to Sidious?

Well after his defeat he is laughing saying Yeh good look on Vader you are gonna die basically, again that's kinda clear

Again, how does that imply Vader is superior to Sidious. You're acting like Sidious wouldn't stomp Obi-Wan.

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 No, what is Mr. Fantastic levels of reaching is saying " He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" and all those other Vader/Anakin quotes are referring to potential and not power LOOOL

I mean, your own quote disagrees with you lol. It clearly says Vader could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor, meaning he hadn't reached that level yet.

hang on didnt you literally just say ...

@iamthatguy wrote:Lucas said Anakin could only beat Anakin after Mustafar.
@iamthatguy wrote:Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

Huh? seems the only thing that's contradictory is you lol not any of these binding quotes Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187

What're you saying? None of that is contradictory. I literally stated the same thing 3 times in different ways.

Lucas is saying Vader becoming "infinitely more powerful" are the powers the Emperor has, not that he had the power of the Emperor.
bro come on now the meaning of the quote is as clear as day, just concede, its fine

I'm not the one sourcing quotes which goes against their argument...

" if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has"
They are "his powers" which are "the powers the emperor has" he possesses the same powers/is as powerful as the emperor, that is CRYSTAL CLEAR

As I said above, the "were the powers the Emperor has" is referring to the "infinitely more powerful", which you so coincidentally cut out.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 4th 2021, 10:20 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:Yoda wrecks
Vaelias
Vaelias

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 5th 2021, 9:07 am
Yoda wasn't mentioned as being a tier 9 until ROTS, unlike Sidious who was mentioned as a tier 9 during AOTC. Also, Yoda didn't even attack Dooku offensively, Dooku was the one attacking Yoda, who dismissed his attacks.

Ok doesn't mean he is not a 9, this is where we look to other sources to see that he is described as the best duelist in the order, seems pretty clear to me 


No evidence it isn't referring to the 90% 
Well... seems pretty damn obvious seeing as we know it is only referring to combat ability 



How does Anakin have parity with Yoda in force power
Oh my god did you really just ask that after this whole exchange, scroll up and read 



So a non Canon fight?
Its Lucas approved, much like the Maul vs Vader fight that did not happen in the timeline we use it because it is supposed to show what would happen if those two fought, same thing here.



Cool, Lucas has said Anakin couldn't beat Sidious, who Yoda is >. Lucas>Gillard.
Lucas and Gillard are both G-Canon, don't know where on earth you got the idea that Yoda > Sidious, quite the opposite actually and Lucas never said that actually 


Not really because he's only explicitly confirmed as 9 with darkside during ROTS. Before that he's still an 8 even when tapping into the darkside, putting him below a tier 9 like Yoda.
I've already answered ALL of this stop going in circles 



Alright let's go with that then. So pre-ROTS Anakin who taps into the darkside is > Yoda, despite not being a tier 9. See how that doesn't work?
Oh dear, no, i never said pre ROTS Anakin was a 9 did I. Also THE TIER SYSTEM IS COMBAT ABILITY ONLY SO HAS NO BEARING ON OVERALL POWER LEVELS 


Maul and Sidious would be in the same tier in TPM Pre Boost, but it does not mean they are as powerful as each other 


During Knightfall sure, but he wasn't actively using the darkside the entire time after the IH fight.
No but it looks likely that he remained a 9 afterwards up until Knightfall when he became a higher 9



Anakin's darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, you're playing the semantics game.
I wouldnt even call his Zonakin powers his "darkside" or "sith" powers, he just taps into his emotions, but regardless, you claimed that he is no longer a Jedi when he uses these emotions, that is stupid



Because Lucas literally confirms Anakin couldn't have beaten Sidious during ROTS...
I swear you are just shitting Lucas quotes out your ass at this point, show me that quote!



Jedi Anakin's powers are an 8. Zonakin is not using Jedi powers, he's tapping into the darkside.

Using a non Canon fight to support the idea that Anakin remained a tier 9 after the IH fight is a terrible argument.
It is not "non canon" as I have shown you already and yes he taps into the darkside/uses his emotions, it does not make him not a jedi which you implied 


Because the English language says so. Arguably implies there is still doubt, certainty is void of doubt.
The Quote was 
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." 
In this Case "Arguably" being the most powerful Jedi, is certainly an implication of parity to Yoda



And TPM Maul is one of the most powerful Sith

He is, apart from Sidious and Plagueis obviously 


Combat ability and force power is one in the same. Combat ability relies on force aug. If the tiering was purely referring to dueling skill, someone like TPM Maul would be above ROTS Sidious.
Even if it includes force Aug which I never said it didn't, it still would not be entirely indicative of ones full power only a rough measure, especially seeing as there can be different levels of each tier, Anakin being an 8 does not preclude parity with Yoda in full power, Yoda seems to be on the low end of 9 anyway seeing as Sidious and KF are both more powerful and still 9s, see what Im getting at 




"If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."
Source: Making of Revenge of the Sith


you said...

Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.
[size]

How does that mean Anakin could only have beaten him post Mustafar at all, it is saying that if he never got burned up he could have beat the emperor, which he could have, he just never tried to yet, so obviously that would happen post Mustafar it it where going to happen 


[/size]




Yup, he was never mentioned as a tier 9 during AOTC, while Sidious was. Making ROTS Yoda>AOTC Yoda via Yoda going from an 8 to a 9
Prove Yoda was an 8 and not just a 9 all along especially seeing as its obvious he was on a decline, literally all the evidence points to him being 9 


Cool, so you're acknowledging that it's referring to Drallig's skill right? Now prove to me Drallig has force aug rivalling any of the main characters during the PT without using the ROTS game.
Well if you watch ep3 Drallig lasts longer to KF who is = to if not slightly > Sidious, than any of the B team last to Sidious, also being one of the most "dangerous" of the order is a very clear indication of superiority 


And Vader would have tanked him to had he not been caught off guard.
Possibly, but if you keep watching Drallig knocks Vader down again and beats him when they are forced into a saber lock



You realize every single member of the B team has quotes like that besides the mastery over 7 forms right?
Or the most dangerous of the order quote, id say that coupled with the 7 forms mastery solidly puts him above 


Breaking an unsuspecting opponents force shield isn't impressive in the same way landing a punch on someone who isn't suspecting it isn't impressive.
Ok well what about overpowering Vader in sabers and kicking him sending him flying? and still I don't know if you even watched the cutscene but Drallig Tanks Vaders push, if he was not on a level with him no way could he do that 



And what is there to suggest "the most powerful" is referring to his actual power, instead of his potential. 
The literal wording of the quote, can you read, its clear as day mate 



I have, since Jedi Anakin is a tier 8, which puts him below Yoda and Mace.
No you haven't you are transfixed on the idea that the tier system is all out power, Mace even admits he is inferior to Anakin



Fair enough, though it still doesn't mean Anakin was equal with Sidious, just that he was closer to Sidious than he was to someone like TPM Maul or ROTS Dooku, which I agree with.
No that is wrong, read the quote again until it goes in, the wording couldn't be any clearer, HE WAS NO LONGER AS POWERFUL AS THE EMPEROR MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187




Are you reading what you're posting? "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" clearly means he isn't as powerful as the Emperor, but he is approaching.

oh dear, are you reading what I am saying, read that again please 

lol, the wording is plain and simple, "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" that idea is silly the meaning is as clear as day lol
The one in bold is what Lucas said, the one in ital is what I am saying he is not saying not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" the context of the quote again is very clear, I'm starting to think you don't know how to read lol



Again, how does that imply Vader is superior to Sidious. You're acting like Sidious wouldn't stomp Obi-Wan.
Bro just read it it is very clear AGAIN. also there are circumstances surrounding Kenobi's victory



I mean, your own quote disagrees with you lol. It clearly says Vader could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor, meaning he hadn't reached that level yet.

HAHAHAHAHA why would MY quote that I used to show you what Lucas was not saying have any canonical bearing.



you wrote:So no basis it still isn't referring to potential

I wrote:

He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor"

just concede at this point imo LOL



As I said above, the "were the powers the Emperor has" is referring to the "infinitely more powerful", which you so coincidentally cut out.

No that doesn't even make any sense he lost the power the emperor had, why would that refer to infinitely more powerful, the infinitely more powerful quote is saying he would be infinitely more powerful than the emperor, so why would infinitely more powerful be the power the emperor had HAHAHA





I'm not the one sourcing quotes which goes against their argument...
Im not the one not reading anything properly, this is the quote "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" N O T  T H I S "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" 



R E A D !










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KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 5th 2021, 10:26 am
Dooku has never been given a rating on the gillard scale outside of Gillard emails. And given Gillard is notoriously inconsistent outside of official sources, its validity is dubious to say the least
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 5th 2021, 10:44 am
Ok doesn't mean he is not a 9, this is where we look to other sources to see that he is described as the best duelist in the order, seems pretty clear to me 

It does actually, since he wasn't mentioned as a 9 during AOTC while Sidious was.

Well... seems pretty damn obvious seeing as we know it is only referring to combat ability 

You realize force aug is a huge part of combat ability right?

[/quote]Oh my god did you really just ask that after this whole exchange, scroll up and read [/quote]

Yup, you haven't proven in anyway how Anakin is on par with Yoda in anyway.

Its Lucas approved, much like the Maul vs Vader fight that did not happen in the timeline  we use it because it is supposed to show what would happen if those two fought, same thing here.

Then I would agree that KFV could beat a tired Windu.

Lucas and Gillard are both G-Canon, don't know where on earth you got the idea that Yoda > Sidious, quite the opposite actually and Lucas never said that actually 

Yoda disarmed Sidious in the duel and overpowered his force lightning.

I've already answered ALL of this stop going in circles 

You haven't answered it sufficiently.  You can't have Jedi Anakin, an 8, above ROTS Yoda who's a 9.

Oh dear, no, i never said pre ROTS Anakin was a 9 did I. Also THE TIER SYSTEM IS COMBAT ABILITY ONLY SO HAS NO BEARING ON OVERALL POWER LEVELS 

You're claiming Jedi Anakin is a 9, which by default would also make pre-ROTS Anakin a 9.

Again, combat ability is synonymous with overall power levels.

Maul and Sidious would be in the same tier in TPM Pre Boost, but it does not mean they are as powerful as each other 

Don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this but the gap between TPM Sidious/TPM Maul is certainly bigger than the gap between Yoda/Anakin.

No but it looks likely that he remained a 9 afterwards up until Knightfall when he became a higher 9

It looks like? Where is your definite proof?  The Anakin Windu AU fight would also be KFV not Jedi Anakin, so you can't use that either.

I wouldnt even call his Zonakin powers his "darkside" or "sith" powers, he just taps into his emotions, but regardless, you claimed that he is no longer a Jedi when he uses these emotions, that is stupid

Darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, Sith are just an organization that utilize the darkside.

I said Anakin when using his emotions isn't using his Jedi powers (i.e. Focus) and instead, using Sith ways to channel his power (i.e. Anger).  Hence why the "strongest jedi" quotes are incorrect, since they refer to an Anakin that is an 8 per Gillard.

I swear you are just shitting Lucas quotes out your ass at this point, show me that quote!

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith

Yoda and amped Windu>unhindered MFV>KFV>ROTS Jedi Anakin

[quote]

It is not "non canon" as I have shown you already and yes he taps into the darkside/uses his emotions, it does not make him not a jedi which you implied 

Call it what you wish, an AU fight is non canon, same way Resurrection is non canon.

The Quote was 
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger." 
In this Case "Arguably" being the most powerful Jedi, is certainly an implication of parity to Yoda

Ok, I fail to see how that debunks anything I said?  I agree Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi, however arguably isn't certainty, therefore he is not above Yoda.  That's also completely disregarding Gillard's tiers which overrides the quote anyway.

Moreover, we know IU opinions aren't meant to be taken seriously, otherwise Grievous>Yoda per Windu himself.

He is, apart from Sidious and Plagueis obviously 

No, he really isn't.

Even if it includes force Aug which I never said it didn't, it still would not be entirely indicative of ones full power only a rough measure, especially seeing as there can be different levels of each tier, Anakin being an 8 does not preclude parity with Yoda in full power, Yoda seems to be on the low end of 9 anyway seeing as Sidious and KF are both more powerful and still 9s, see what Im getting at 

How would it not be indicative of one's power?  Force aug is based on the power of the force user, hence why Sidious is stronger than Maul and Savage, because he is more powerful than them in the force.

Being in a different tier actually does preclude parity, since according to Gillard there are huge gaps in the tier.  Yoda is also more powerful than Sidious, via overpowering his lightning, and KFV, or better yet, unhindered MFV is confirmed below Yoda, amped Windu, and Sidious.

you said...

Contradicted by GL saying Anakin could only beat Sidious post Mustafar.

How does that mean Anakin could only have beaten him post Mustafar at all, it is saying that if he never got burned up he could have beat the emperor, which he could have, he just never tried to yet, so obviously that would happen post Mustafar it it where going to happen 

Because if Lucas meant Anakin with his present power on Mustafar unhindered (before Kenobi and Padme arrived) he would have said before he was burned, not after the fact if he won the fight against Kenobi.  He didn't, therefore he clearly meant Anakin wasn't powerful enough at the time to beat Sidious.

Prove Yoda was an 8 and not just a 9 all along especially seeing as its obvious he was on a decline, literally all the evidence points to him being 9 

Prove Yoda was on the decline??

Well if you watch ep3 Drallig lasts longer to KF who is = to if not slightly > Sidious, than any of the B team last to Sidious, also being one of the most "dangerous" of the order is a very clear indication of superiority 

Thats is AU meaning non Canon in Legends.  I am referring to Legends, non video game, Drallig, vs other members of the B team.  I see you keep falling back on the videogame, you must've realized that Drallig has no feats that put him on Fisto, Kolar, Tiin level.

Possibly, but if you keep watching Drallig knocks Vader down again and beats him when they are forced into a saber lock

LMAO, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about do you?? Vader is so much stronger than Drallig that Drallig literally falls over from the bladelock, Drallig then uses a tactical move and kicks Anakin off.  He didn't overpower Anakin whatsoever.

Or the most dangerous of the order quote, id say that coupled with the 7 forms mastery solidly puts him above 

So just statements praising his skill??  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181  Like I said, he has nothing putting him above or even equal to the B-team.

Ok well what about overpowering Vader in sabers and kicking him sending him flying? and still I don't know if you even watched the cutscene but Drallig Tanks Vaders push, if he was not on a level with him no way could he do that 

This is getting sad.  Vader made Drallig fall over in the bladelock, that's how much stronger Vader was.  Drallig kicked the falling Vader off of him, then ran at him.  That it no way puts Drallig anywhere near KFV.

And as I've explained, countless times, Anakin would have tanked Drallig's blast as well if he had been on guard.

The literal wording of the quote, can you read, its clear as day mate 

Show me where it says "Anakin is the most powerful Jedi in actualized power".  

No you haven't you are transfixed on the idea that the tier system is all out power, Mace even admits he is inferior to Anakin

Mace also says Yoda is inferior to Grievous, IU opinions aren't infallible.  In fact, they are actually the opposite.  And I've already explained how the tier system refers to overall power.

No that is wrong, read the quote again until it goes in, the wording couldn't be any clearer, HE WAS NO LONGER AS POWERFUL AS THE EMPEROR MEANS EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187

That would work, if the entire context of the quote, which you incidentally left out, wasn't referring to potential:

That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful

somebody who would be more powerful than he was

He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.


oh dear, are you reading what I am saying, read that again please 

He could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor, what does that mean to you?  It clearly means he WASN'T as powerful as the Emperor, and he could no longer reach the Emperor's powers, since he was reduced to 80% of him.

The one in bold is what Lucas said, the one in ital is what I am saying he is not saying not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" the context of the quote again is very clear, I'm starting to think you don't know how to read lol

Please explain to me what you think that means.  It literally says Anakin could NO LONGER HAVE BEEN AS POWERFUL, have been meaning he wasn't yet, but approaching.

Bro just read it it is very clear AGAIN. also there are circumstances surrounding Kenobi's victory

This Anakin wank is quite simply ridiculous.  Sidious laughing and musing that Kenobi would get destroyed by Vader in no way means Vader is > Sidious.

HAHAHAHAHA why would MY quote that I used to show you what Lucas was not saying have any canonical bearing.

When did I say it didn't have canonical bearing? I said your using quotes that you misinterpreted to support your belief.

just concede at this point imo LOL

"He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor"

This literally can't be more crystal clear.

Could have been= future

Anakin in the future could have been as powerful as the emperor, and actually double, but because of his injuries, he was limited to 80% of Sidious.

No that doesn't even make any sense he lost the power the emperor had, why would that refer to infinitely more powerful, the infinitely more powerful quote is saying he would be infinitely more powerful than the emperor, so why would infinitely more powerful be the power the emperor had HAHAHA

Is English your first language?

Im not the one not reading anything properly, this is the quote "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" N O T  T H I S "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" 

R E A D !







Ok that was my mistake, idk why I thought you pulled a quote which said that.

However, that whole quote, which you keep taking snippets of, is referring to Skywalker potential, as in Anakin and Luke's.

"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Moreover, we have confirmation from Lucas that Anakin isn't on their level yet, even when unhindered on Mustafar:
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

Therefore, per Lucas, we have this:

Sidious/Yoda/Windu>Unhindered MFV>KFV>Zonakin>Jedi Anakin
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February 5th 2021, 11:13 am
@iamthatguy

Yoda disarmed Sidious in the duel

Why does this indicate superiority? If we treat Lightsaber duels as analogous to real-life swordplay it doesn't, as we know inferior combatants can disarm superior ones - provided they're closely matched - due to duels being subject to things like someone making a small error at the wrong moment and losing because of it. You can't prove that this would happen if they fought again and again.

and overpowered his force lightning.

Their energies mutually overloaded and blasted them both back: Yoda never "overpowered" anything.
iamthatguy
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February 5th 2021, 12:22 pm
Why does this indicate superiority? If we treat Lightsaber duels as analogous to real-life swordplay it doesn't, as we know inferior combatants can disarm superior ones - provided they're closely matched - due to duels being subject to things like someone making a small error at the wrong moment and losing because of it. You can't prove that this would happen if they fought again and again.

They aren't analogous to real life though. Duels in real life between two evenly matched opponents last seconds, whereas in SW they last minutes.

Their energies mutually overloaded and blasted them both back: Yoda never "overpowered" anything.

That's not what I meant. I meant that Sidious was initially overpowering Yoda's tutaminis, then Yoda pushed back so the energy mutually overloaded as you said, rather than only Yoda's tutaminis being overloaded.
iamthatguy
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February 5th 2021, 12:23 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Dooku has never been given a rating on the gillard scale outside of Gillard emails. And given Gillard is notoriously inconsistent outside of official sources, its validity is dubious to say the least

It's certainly more valid than C-canon sources.
KingofBlades
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February 5th 2021, 12:36 pm
Why
iamthatguy
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February 5th 2021, 1:01 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Why

Because the tiering system was approved by Lucas, which makes it G-canon.
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February 5th 2021, 2:06 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@iamthatguy


It does actually, since he wasn't mentioned as a 9 during AOTC while Sidious was.
Why on earth would that mean he would be an 8 tho, he was not mentioned as an 8 either and we know he is on a decline, he is not mentioned so we have to assume he is a 9 given literally all indicators suggest that 


Yup, you haven't proven in anyway how Anakin is on par with Yoda in anyway.
I provided you a dozen supremacy quotes that put Anakin >/= Yoda lol. 


Then I would agree that KFV could beat a tired Windu.
If you actually played the game or bothered to watch the cutscenes first then you'd know that it was not KF that beat Windu it was Jedi Anakin, nor was Windu tired due to his superconducting loop



Yoda disarmed Sidious in the duel and overpowered his force lightning.
He didn't overpower his force lightning that did not happen at all lol and I would agree Yoda is a slightly better duelist than Sidious


You haven't answered it sufficiently.  You can't have Jedi Anakin, an 8, above ROTS Yoda who's a 9.
He is only stated as an 8 "at the beginning of the movie" not "as a Jedi" (Please read this correctly this time the ital is NOT the quote the bold is)
he also has MANY quotes over Yoda which I provided you, coupled with him beating Windu before he turned to the Darkside means he will have likely retained his status as a 9, either that or the quotes are referring to his power encompassing his moments fueled by emotion putting him >/= Yoda 
or both, either way Anakin >/= Yoda, but Zonakin is NOT KFV.


You're claiming Jedi Anakin is a 9, which by default would also make pre-ROTS Anakin a 9.

Again, combat ability is synonymous with overall power levels.
What, no it wouldn't

and no its not lol 


Don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this but the gap between TPM Sidious/TPM Maul is certainly bigger than the gap between Yoda/Anakin. 
as it is referring to combat ability Sidious and Maul in TPM would be in the same Tier seeing as Maul is Second only Perhaps to Sidious. and yes I would agree the gap would be bigger as Anakin shares rough parity with Yoda during ROTS, although Maul is still somewhat close to Pre Boost Sidious

 
looks like? Where is your definite proof?  The Anakin Windu AU fight would also be KFV not Jedi Anakin, so you can't use that either.
The fight with Windu lol, and that would NOT be KFV at all lol if anything that Anakin would be hindered he was just crying and is very conflicted at the time the Novel describes him as though he is practically torn in two 



Darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, Sith are just an organization that utilize the darkside.
So are you saying Anakin on IH was a Sith and not a Jedi LOL he was still a Jedi, using his emotions or not, Windu uses his emotions in Vapaad, it doesnt make him not a Jedi, which you previously implied 



I said Anakin when using his emotions isn't using his Jedi powers (i.e. Focus) and instead, using Sith ways to channel his power (i.e. Anger).  Hence why the "strongest jedi" quotes are incorrect, since they refer to an Anakin that is an 8 per Gillard.
Again, The quotes are referring to Anakin's power as a whole, which would include these moments fueled by his emotions, the quotes make so distinction so that is a much more fitting assumption to make rather than to just dismiss the quotes and call them incorrect like you are doing, as I say wither that or he maintained his 9 status or both, dismissing quotes which you are doing is retarded



"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith

Yoda and amped Windu>unhindered MFV>KFV>ROTS Jedi Anakin

More like KFV>/=Sidious>Yoda>/=Jedi Anakin>Mace 


Mace isn't competing with Sidious because he is closer to his power than Anakin (although Yoda Mace and Anakin are all on a similar level) rather he posses the tools necessary ie. Shatterpoint and Vapaad 



Ok, I fail to see how that debunks anything I said?  I agree Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedi, however arguably isn't certainty, therefore he is not above Yoda.  That's also completely disregarding Gillard's tiers which overrides the quote anyway.
Arguably the most powerful implies he is on a level with Yoda, It may be argued that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi obviously they are close if that can be argued. 



Moreover, we know IU opinions aren't meant to be taken seriously, otherwise Grievous>Yoda per Windu himself.
Well yeah in most cases I would agree but in this case it is supported by a dozen OOU accolades including Gillard himself 


No, he really isn't.
I mean he is... 
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Maul_s12

not to mention nearly defeating TPM Sidious who is also confirmed as the most powerful Sith ever 



Being in a different tier actually does preclude parity, since according to Gillard there are huge gaps in the tier.  Yoda is also more powerful than Sidious, via overpowering his lightning, and KFV, or better yet, unhindered MFV is confirmed below Yoda, amped Windu, and Sidious.
No it doesnt lol there are huge gaps in the tiers to whats to say Yoda is on the low end of 9 which looks likely anyway, Yoda is NOT more powerful than Sidious and didnt overpower his lighting, sorry have you even watched ROTS lol Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 he disarmed him yes as I said he is probably a slightly better duelist, but Sidious is confirmed in multiple sources to be more powerful than Yoda, not only that but it was Lucas' intention to have Yoda be defeated

Because if Lucas meant Anakin with his present power on Mustafar unhindered (before Kenobi and Padme arrived) he would have said before he was burned, not after the fact if he won the fight against Kenobi.  He didn't, therefore he clearly meant Anakin wasn't powerful enough at the time to beat Sidious.
No he wouldn't have that wasn't even the point he was addressing, he was expressing the huge power loss Anakin experienced when he got burned up he was never making a point of Anakin not being able to take on Sidious before he was burned


Prove Yoda was on the decline?? 
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 66490810
-admittedly could not achieve a level of Telekinesis that he used to be able to do



Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.




Thats is AU meaning non Canon in Legends.  I am referring to Legends, non video game, Drallig, vs other members of the B team.  I see you keep falling back on the videogame, you must've realized that Drallig has no feats that put him on Fisto, Kolar, Tiin level.


wtf r u on about of course it is Legends, everything I mention will be Legends Canon, this is a quote for movie Drallig and Accolades > Feats lol he doesnt need better feats if he scales above them 




LMAO, you seriously have no idea what you're talking about do you?? Vader is so much stronger than Drallig that Drallig literally falls over from the bladelock, Drallig then uses a tactical move and kicks Anakin off.  He didn't overpower Anakin whatsoever.


:lol:go watch the clip again lol, Drallig clearly leans back and kicks Vader a couple of meters, prior to this they both pushed each other back equally so they are equals if anything.




So just statements praising his skill??  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181  Like I said, he has nothing putting him above or even equal to the B-team.


He has nothing to put him below, only things that put him above tbh, I guess Sidious isnt the most powerful sith now cOs iT iS jUsT pRaiSinG hiS pOweR, duurrr




This is getting sad.  Vader made Drallig fall over in the bladelock, that's how much stronger Vader was.  Drallig kicked the falling Vader off of him, then ran at him.  That it no way puts Drallig anywhere near KFV.

And as I've explained, countless times, Anakin would have tanked Drallig's blast as well if he had been on guard.

LoL go watch it please, you thinking Anakin coming into the office is KFV and Yoda overpowered Sheevs lightning is enough to discredit anything you say regarding ROTS tbh



Show me where it says "Anakin is the most powerful Jedi in actualized power".  
Show me where ANY supremacy quote EVER needs to say 'Actualized power' in order to be valid LOL 

Nobody in the Mythos has a quote directly mentioning actualized power lol its just power which is VERY clear from the context but you have already proven you are incapable of comprehending words, it is not a potential quote unless potential is noted, not the other way round


Mace also says Yoda is inferior to Grievous, IU opinions aren't infallible.  In fact, they are actually the opposite.  And I've already explained how the tier system refers to overall power.
Combat ability only tbh no bearing on raw force power at all
and when IU opinions are heavily supported by numerous OOU sources, demonstration or the person in question has high credibility then they can obviously be taken as fact 



That would work, if the entire context of the quote, which you incidentally left out, wasn't referring to potential:
It clearly is not lol you legit cant read can you? 




That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful

somebody who would be more powerful than he was

He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

That is talking about Luke and Suit Vader but nice try, got nothing to do with Pre Suit Vader being sub Sidious 



George Lucas wrote:"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe.





He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.
Yes he was not what he was supposed to become, he didn't reach his full potential, this quote is directly in reference to potential, hence the word POTENTIAL
it is just stating Sheev is looking for an apprentice with more potential than him. 


He could no longer be as powerful as the Emperor, what does that mean to you?  It clearly means he WASN'T as powerful as the Emperor, and he could no longer reach the Emperor's powers, since he was reduced to 80% of him.

BRO.. PLEASE LEARN HOW TO READ, that's not even what the quote says  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187


GL wrote:there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor

His ability to be twice as good as the emperor disappeared not his ability to become as powerful, he was already as powerful as Sidious
Lucas later retconned the "twice as good" with "infinitely more powerful" 



Please explain to me what you think that means.  It literally says Anakin could NO LONGER HAVE BEEN AS POWERFUL, have been meaning he wasn't yet, but approaching.

Oh ffs are you actually braindead, did you read my response to that at all that is what I wrote LUCAS NEVER SAID THAT, that is why i wrote 
 
this is the quote "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" N O T  T H I S "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor"

How did you fail to understand that oh my goodness 


his Anakin wank is quite simply ridiculous.  Sidious laughing and musing that Kenobi would get destroyed by Vader in no way means Vader is > Sidious.

what are you on about now, That was Sidious laughing to the HERO OF CORUSCANT NOT KENOBI, you clearly don't even know the sources you are referencing, so what is even the point in arguing them lol go and learn the lore first lol

and it was after Sidious' defeat at the hands of HoC that he essentially laughed and said lol good luck with Vader, literally just after he was defeated 


When did I say it didn't have canonical bearing? I said your using quotes that you misinterpreted to support your belief.

You said the quote... ffs never mind already explained go and actually read please 



"He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor"

This literally can't be more crystal clear.

Could have been= future

Anakin in the future could have been as powerful as the emperor, and actually double, but because of his injuries, he was limited to 80% of Sidious.

BROOOOOO COME ON I LITERALLY EXPLAINED OH MY FUCKING GOD 


REEEEEEAAAADDDDDD

ME wrote:lol, the wording is plain and simple, "He was no longer as powerful as the Emperor" not "He no longer could have been as powerful as the Emperor" that idea is silly the meaning is as clear as day lol
the black bold is clearly the quote  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187


Is English your first language?

you're one to talk hahahaha 


Ok that was my mistake, idk why I thought you pulled a quote which said that.

However, that whole quote, which you keep taking snippets of, is referring to Skywalker potential, as in Anakin and Luke's.
Well thank goodness for that.

the quotes aren't referring to potential unless potential is specified, stop using head canon with 0 basis 


"You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was
all this is saying is that Sidious wanted his a apprentice to become more powerful than himself, obviously, that is how the rule of two works and Luke could become more powerful than him, Vader no longer had his potential and no longer could surpass him, but before he was burned up he was confirmed to be on his level and could have surpassed him, it is so easy to understand it is unbelievable 


He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Yes he can no longer become "infinitely more powerful than the Emperor" 


the fact that you are the only person on this whole site with your point of view should be an indication to you that you are wrong, just concede and stop being stubborn 

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Mong12


Last edited by Vaelias on February 7th 2021, 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
KingofBlades
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Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 5th 2021, 3:28 pm
Youre correct in that Lucas backing the tier system would make it g canon. We trust that in official LFL sources, any comments Gillard makes on the tier system would be reflective of Lucas' will because Lucas could just order any Gillard statement that he doesnt like to be edited out of the final product. However, outside of official sources, such as an email, Lucas cant censor Gillard or correct him if hes in error. With this in mind, if its true that gillards comments outside of official sources run contrary to his comments in official sources, and it is true, then we can no longer safely assume his comments outside of official sources are reflective of Lucas' will(the only thing making the Gillards comments g canon). Which means the email that says Dooku is a tier 8 is not necessarily canon in any capcacity, be it g, c, or s
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February 5th 2021, 3:53 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Yoda stomps. Drallig failed to react to Anakin's lightsaber toss. Also much of the fight is CIS as Anakin is trying to really rub Drallig's nose in it.
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February 7th 2021, 2:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Decimus wrote:Yoda stomps. Drallig failed to react to Anakin's lightsaber toss. Also much of the fight is CIS as Anakin is trying to really rub Drallig's nose in it.

Dont see how you can say Yoda stomps when Drallig's performance against Vader was far more impressive than Yoda's performance against Sheev who is equal if not slightly inferior to Vader
iamthatguy
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February 9th 2021, 12:34 am
Why on earth would that mean he would be an 8 tho, he was not mentioned as an 8 either and we know he is on a decline, he is not mentioned so we have to assume he is a 9 given literally all indicators suggest that 

Because nobody was given the ranking of tier 8.  The only ranking given during AOTC was to Sidious who was a 9.

And proof Yoda was on the decline?  Age argument doesn't work.

I provided you a dozen supremacy quotes that put Anakin >/= Yoda lol. 

In no way have you proven they are referring to actualized power, furthermore Jedi Anakin is an 8 so he's canonically locked under Yoda.

If you actually played the game or bothered to watch the cutscenes first then you'd know that it was not KF that beat Windu it was Jedi Anakin, nor was Windu tired due to his superconducting loop

Just because it wasn't during Operation Knightfall doesn't mean he wasn't at KFV power level.  He was clearly tapping into the darkside during the fight.  He's at least Zonakin level, who's still a 9.

He didn't overpower his force lightning that did not happen at all lol and I would agree Yoda is a slightly better duelist than Sidious

He did, Yoda was originally being overpowered by Sidious' lightning, but he regained his footing and managed to push it back so instead of only Yoda being sent off the pod, both Sidious and Yoda were.

He is only stated as an 8 "at the beginning of the movie" not "as a Jedi" (Please read this correctly this time the ital is NOT the quote the bold is)
he also has MANY quotes over Yoda which I provided you, coupled with him beating Windu before he turned to the Darkside means he will have likely retained his status as a 9, either that or the quotes are referring to his power encompassing his moments fueled by emotion putting him >/= Yoda 
or both, either way Anakin >/= Yoda, but Zonakin is NOT KFV.

Gillard explicitly says Anakin is a 9 only when using the darkside, this really isn't hard to understand at all:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f86/20/30/38/24/anakin10.jpg

The difference between 8 and 9 is the darkside for Anakin.

What, no it wouldn't

If ROTS Jedi Anakin is a 9, what would stop Anakin 5 seconds before the start of ROTS from being a 9 as well?

and no its not lol 

Yeah it is.  Sidious is so formidable in combat because of his power, his force augmentation.  Without force augmentation, Sidious would get walked all over by even the weakest Jedi masters who are at least in good physical condition.

as it is referring to combat ability Sidious and Maul in TPM would be in the same Tier seeing as Maul is Second only Perhaps to Sidious. and yes I would agree the gap would be bigger as Anakin shares rough parity with Yoda during ROTS, although Maul is still somewhat close to Pre Boost Sidious

Pre-boost Sidious blitzed TPM Maul.

The fight with Windu lol, and that would NOT be KFV at all lol if anything that Anakin would be hindered he was just crying and is very conflicted at the time the Novel describes him as though he is practically torn in two 

He was crying before he attacked Windu, in the fight he has no remorse.

Darkside powers and sith powers are one in the same, Sith are just an organization that utilize the darkside.
So are you saying Anakin on IH was a Sith and not a Jedi LOL he was still a Jedi, using his emotions or not, Windu uses his emotions in Vapaad, it doesnt make him not a Jedi, which you previously implied 

That's not what I'm saying at all?? I'm saying there is no difference between Sith powers and dark side powers.  All the sith are are practitioners of the darkside. Anakin is not a Sith during the IH, but he is using darkside powers.

Again, The quotes are referring to Anakin's power as a whole, which would include these moments fueled by his emotions, the quotes make so distinction so that is a much more fitting assumption to make rather than to just dismiss the quotes and call them incorrect like you are doing, as I say wither that or he maintained his 9 status or both, dismissing quotes which you are doing is retarded

But they're not referring to Anakin as a whole lol, they specifically mention JEDI to convey that they're referring to lightside Anakin.

More like KFV>/=Sidious>Yoda>/=Jedi Anakin>Mace

Based on what? Absolutely nothing? Lucas himself literally disproves that.

Mace isn't competing with Sidious because he is closer to his power than Anakin (although Yoda Mace and Anakin are all on a similar level) rather he posses the tools necessary ie. Shatterpoint and Vapaad 

Strawman.  This is about Anakin, not Mace.  Whether or not Mace can beat Sidious without Vaapad is irrelevant.  What is relevant however, is that Anakin is confirmed as not a match for Sidious during ROTS.

[quote]Arguably the most powerful implies he is on a level with Yoda, It may be argued that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi obviously they are close if that can be argued. 
[quote]

And when did I disagree with that?  I'm saying he's not superior to Yoda, but he is on the same level.

Well yeah in most cases I would agree but in this case it is supported by a dozen OOU accolades including Gillard himself 

Nah, Gillard said Jedi Anakin is a tier 8, and  Lucas said darkside Anakin cannot beat Sidious.

I mean he is... 
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Maul_s12

not to mention nearly defeating TPM Sidious who is also confirmed as the most powerful Sith ever 

Ok, so I'm gonna drag this back to the thread we were arguing about Exar Kun on.  According to this, Exar Kun is sub TPM Maul.  Exar Kun, who you hold at ROTJ Sidious level, is sub TPM Maul based on this one quote.

That wasn't TPM Sidious either, that was pre-TPM by 5 years, since Maul was 17 on Hypori.  TPM Sidious was capable of blitzing TPM Maul.

No it doesnt lol there are huge gaps in the tiers to whats to say Yoda is on the low end of 9 which looks likely anyway, Yoda is NOT more powerful than Sidious and didnt overpower his lighting, sorry have you even watched ROTS lol Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 he disarmed him yes as I said he is probably a slightly better duelist, but Sidious is confirmed in multiple sources to be more powerful than Yoda, not only that but it was Lucas' intention to have Yoda be defeated

Yeah, I have watched it, and read the novel as well.  Yoda is at first losing the force battle, but once he regains his focus (according to the novel), he brings it back to a stalemate before the condensed force energy collapsed.  So while Yoda didn't have the advantage in the force fight, he went from being overpowered, to bringing it to a stalemate, indicating he is capable of overpowering Sidious when in the right mindset.

Also, Yoda can lose without being Sidious' combative inferior.  Anakin lost to Kenobi, despite the former being the combative superior of the two.

No he wouldn't have that wasn't even the point he was addressing, he was expressing the huge power loss Anakin experienced when he got burned up he was never making a point of Anakin not being able to take on Sidious before he was burned.

Yeah he was, hence why ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor".

If he wanted to make the point that Anakin could've beat Sidious, he would've said pre-burn, as he's addressed Anakin/Vader like that in other quotes.

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 66490810
-admittedly could not achieve a level of Telekinesis that he used to be able to do

If this is pre clone wars it's irrelevant, as Jedi experienced massive increases in power due to constant warfare.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council.

See above.

Thats is AU meaning non Canon in Legends.  I am referring to Legends, non video game, Drallig, vs other members of the B team.  I see you keep falling back on the videogame, you must've realized that Drallig has no feats that put him on Fisto, Kolar, Tiin level.

wtf r u on about of course it is Legends, everything I mention will be Legends Canon, this is a quote for movie Drallig and Accolades > Feats lol he doesnt need better feats if he scales above them 
[quote]

It's not canon in Legends, since it's overriden by the movie.  It's an AU portrayal of the fight.

:lol:go watch the clip again lol, Drallig clearly leans back and kicks Vader a couple of meters, prior to this they both pushed each other back equally so they are equals if anything.

Literally zero proof he leans backwards.  He's still leveraging power into his blade when going down, which clearly indicates it was against his will.

He has nothing to put him below, only things that put him above tbh, I guess Sidious isnt the most powerful sith now cOs iT iS jUsT pRaiSinG hiS pOweR, duurrr[/size]

Drallig is put below the B-team by something called feats.  As well as the fact that, well, they're on the B-team, meaning they are already > Drallig since Windu would take the best Jedi with him.

False equivalence comparing Drallig's skill accolades to Sidious' power accolades.  Power contributes exponentially more to a fight than skill does.

LoL go watch it please, you thinking Anakin coming into the office is KFV and Yoda overpowered Sheevs lightning is enough to discredit anything you say regarding ROTS tbh

Anakin coming into the office doesn't make him KFV, Anakin attacking Windu ferociously and embracing the darkside does.

The ROTS novelization makes note Yoda was doubting himself the entire fight against Sidious, because of this he was originally underperforming.  Once Yoda regained his focus and realized he has to salvage the Jedi order, he overpowers Sidious and brings it to a stalemate.

Show me where ANY supremacy quote EVER needs to say 'Actualized power' in order to be valid LOL 

Every supremacy quote actually, hence why none are taken seriously at all.  And why more established debating sites explicitly say FEATS>>>>>ACCOLADES.

Nobody in the Mythos has a quote directly mentioning actualized power lol its just power which is VERY clear from the context but you have already proven you are incapable of comprehending words, it is not a potential quote unless potential is noted, not the other way round

You're right, it's a potential quote because it conflicts with G-canon explicitly deeming non darkside Anakin an 8.

Mace also says Yoda is inferior to Grievous, IU opinions aren't infallible.  In fact, they are actually the opposite.  And I've already explained how the tier system refers to overall power.
Combat ability only tbh no bearing on raw force power at all

Combat ability includes force power, idk how many times I have to say this.  There's a reason heavyweight boxers don't fight featherweight boxers; even though the skill is relatively equal the heavyweight has much more POWER.

and when IU opinions are heavily supported by numerous OOU sources, demonstration or the person in question has high credibility then they can obviously be taken as fact 

That is true, except George Lucas explicitly said Anakin couldn't beat Sheev during ROTS:

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith

It clearly is not lol you legit cant read can you? 

Right... so what was that part referring to Luke's potential?

somebody who would be more powerful than he was

So referring to potential??

That is talking about Luke and Suit Vader but nice try, got nothing to do with Pre Suit Vader being sub Sidious 

So again, referring to potential right?

I never said he directly referred to Anakin's potential, but the whole context of the quote is referring to Skywalker potential.  So to line up with other Lucas quotes (the one that says Anakin cannot beat Sidious during ROTS) it's clear that Anakin's comparison to the emperor is also based upon potential.

it is just stating Sheev is looking for an apprentice with more potential than him. 

Yup, which is what my argument is.  The quote in it's entirety is referring to potential, therefore the comparison between Anakin and Sidious is one of potential and not actualized power.

His ability to be twice as good as the emperor disappeared not his ability to become as powerful, he was already as powerful as Sidious
Lucas later retconned the "twice as good" with "infinitely more powerful" 

You don't lose power when your limbs get cut off.  You lose potential.  Vader's actualized power never changed.  Same way Maul never lost power after TPM, he only lost potential which was eventually restored by Talzin.

Oh ffs are you actually braindead, did you read my response to that at all that is what I wrote LUCAS NEVER SAID THAT, that is why i wrote 

Yeah that is my fault, I'm getting used to this formatting and I thought used that as an actual quote.

what are you on about now, That was Sidious laughing to the HERO OF CORUSCANT NOT KENOBI, you clearly don't even know the sources you are referencing, so what is even the point in arguing them lol go and learn the lore first lol

When did I say Sidious was talking directly to Kenobi??  I said Sidious was musing that Kenobi would get destroyed by Vader, which in itself doesn't put Vader above Sidious.

and it was after Sidious' defeat at the hands of HoC that he essentially laughed and said lol good luck with Vader, literally just after he was defeated

Overruled by higher G-canon sources, one being Lucas who said MFV couldn't beat Sidious, the other being the movie itself when Sidious says "Darth Vader WILL BECOME more powerful than either of us"

the quotes aren't referring to potential unless potential is specified, stop using head canon with 0 basis 

That quote is referring to potential.  It's referring to Skywalker potential and how Anakin was supposed to surpass Sidious, but now Luke will.

all this is saying is that Sidious wanted his a apprentice to become more powerful than himself, obviously, that is how the rule of two works and Luke could become more powerful than him, Vader no longer had his potential and no longer could surpass him, but before he was burned up he was confirmed to be on his level and could have surpassed him, it is so easy to understand it is unbelievable 

all this is saying is that Sidious wanted his a apprentice to become more powerful than himself, That's potential my friend.

Yes he can no longer become "infinitely more powerful than the Emperor" 

Yup he can't. Don't see how that makes him equal to Sidious though.

the fact that you are the only person on this whole site with your point of view should be an indication to you that you are wrong, just concede and stop being stubborn

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Appeal-to-Common-Belief

Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Mong12

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Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda

February 9th 2021, 11:34 am
@iamthatguy

Ok I am just going to ignore a lot of what you have said that is going round in circles as I've already showed you why you are wrong, or irrelevantly points that are getting off track, or just plain stupid, also seems as though you have been changing your argument the whole way through this argument.


And proof Yoda was on the decline?  Age argument doesn't work.
Idk why you are asking questions I literally answered in my previous comment lol. please read that is all I ask 


In no way have you proven they are referring to actualized power
I kinda don't need to, you just need to read the quote and look for words like 'would' or 'potential' that aren't there in these quotes, so no they aren't referring to potential at all



He did, Yoda was originally being overpowered by Sidious' lightning, but he regained his footing and managed to push it back so instead of only Yoda being sent off the pod, both Sidious and Yoda were.
So a mutual overload then, not overpowering, you literally just described Yoda not overpowering Sidious, Sidious is more powerful than Yoda anyway per numerous sources



Yeah it is.  Sidious is so formidable in combat because of his power, his force augmentation.  Without force augmentation, Sidious would get walked all over by even the weakest Jedi masters who are at least in good physical condition.
Well yeh duh, so would Yoda, idk where I mentioned Physical fortitude 



Pre-boost Sidious blitzed TPM Maul.
No he didn't, I know what you are referring to, maul was not on guard, concentrating or anything, and was not expecting his master this is the same Sidious whom can hide his presence from even the likes of Yoda, its fair to say he can hide it from Maul.



He was crying before he attacked Windu, in the fight he has no remorse.
Thought you said you had read the novelization, Anakin at this point is an emotional wreck stuck between scylla and charybdis



But they're not referring to Anakin as a whole lol, they specifically mention JEDI to convey that they're referring to lightside Anakin.
No, the word 'Jedi' is used to show how he is the most powerful Jedi, simple as that lol, Anakin is still a Jedi when he is using the darkside and is still in his scope of power accessible to him when he needs to use it 


That's not what I'm saying at all?? I'm saying there is no difference between Sith powers and dark side powers.

they all refer to Jedi Anakin, who isn't drawing on the darkside.

lol no u said this, an a bunch of other shit claiming Anakin is not a jedi when drawing on the darkside lol.



Based on what? Absolutely nothing? Lucas himself literally disproves that.
No he doesn't, you live in your own little world when it comes to Lucas quotes lol


KFV Sidious and Yoda are all in close proximity but edges to KFV are given do to Sidious conceding inferiority to him in sabers, and his ability to outwill the will of the force its self, while being equal in power per Lucas being the chosen one of course, then Sidious gets the edge in power due to numerous statements 
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Sidiou10
Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 Yoda_d11

So yeh 
KF > Sidious > Yoda 
albeit they are all very close 



And when did I disagree with that?  I'm saying he's not superior to Yoda, but he is on the same level.

 Huh? are you serious? that has been your argument from the very beginning, that Anakin is not a peer of Yoda, and that Anakin's quotes are not referring to power but potential, which I've debunked, and you seem to agree with me now, so thanks for the concession  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181 maybe make it a bit quicker next time instead of making yourself look a fool, no one frowns upon a concession, they frown upon retarded nonsensical stubbornness.



Ok, so I'm gonna drag this back to the thread we were arguing about Exar Kun on.  According to this, Exar Kun is sub TPM Maul.  Exar Kun, who you hold at ROTJ Sidious level, is sub TPM Maul based on this one quote.
Yes I know I never disputed it puts Maul above Kun, Base living Kun is below TPM Maul, I said post ritual pre wall of light Kun is ROTJ Sidious level, which he is 



Yeah, I have watched it, and read the novel as well. 
Doubt  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 39523600



Also, Yoda can lose without being Sidious' combative inferior.  Anakin lost to Kenobi, despite the former being the combative superior of the two.
Wow another concession, finally  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 1289255181 
Your argument was that Anakin cant be a peer with Yoda cos he is a 9 but now concede on the notion that weaker people in tiers below can overcome stronger ones which is the exact point I was making with Dooku and Yoda in AOTC, which you disputed for some unknown reason as you seem to agree now.


That wasn't TPM Sidious either, that was pre-TPM by 5 years, since Maul was 17 on Hypori.  TPM Sidious was capable of blitzing TPM Maul.
Ok and yeh they are still both peers at that time and remain peers, until Sheev's boost



Yeah he was, hence why ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor".

If he wanted to make the point that Anakin could've beat Sidious, he would've said pre-burn, as he's addressed Anakin/Vader like that in other quotes.

Wait so you admit Anakin is on a level with Yoda and you claim Yoda is > Sidious but you dispute Anakin being able to beat Sidious  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 3363707401




If this is pre clone wars it's irrelevant, as Jedi experienced massive increases in power due to constant warfare.
Citation needed, also its after ROTS anyway I'm pretty sure 



It's not canon in Legends, since it's overriden by the movie.  It's an AU portrayal of the fight.

No its not, think of it of filling in the gaps "any contradictions are dealt on a case by case"



Literally zero proof he leans backwards.  He's still leveraging power into his blade when going down, which clearly indicates it was against his will.
him leveraging power into his blade is so he can lean backwards and keep Vaders blade held up without getting cut in half lol, look at his facial expression and manner in which he does it, pretty clear it was a trick he had up in his sleeve 



False equivalence comparing Drallig's skill accolades to Sidious' power accolades.  Power contributes exponentially more to a fight than skill does.
Im talking about the "deadliest of the order" quote, which is better than anything B-team has 


Anakin coming into the office doesn't make him KFV, Anakin attacking Windu ferociously and embracing the darkside does.
Anakin only seems to get angry half way through the fight, and its only for a brief moment, also if anything Mace would perform better against a rage filled Dark Side using Anakin, that is how Vapaad works, he draws his strength from the opponents.






Show me where ANY supremacy quote EVER needs to say [size=14]'Actualized power' in order to be valid LOL [/size]


Every supremacy quote actually, hence why none are taken seriously at all.  And why more established debating sites explicitly say FEATS>>>>>ACCOLADES


Lol are those sites more established for retards who cant read lol, the quotes context is very clear, literally just read please just learn how to read, there are quotes that literally say "Anakin is the most powerful jedi" that you are claiming refer to potential  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187 Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187





Combat ability includes force power, idk how many times I have to say this.  There's a reason heavyweight boxers don't fight featherweight boxers; even though the skill is relatively equal the heavyweight has much more POWER.

Why did you sday this then...

Also, Yoda can lose without being Sidious' combative inferior.  Anakin lost to Kenobi, despite the former being the combative superior of the two.


Right... so what was that part referring to Luke's potential?
the word "Would" notice how 'would' is not the same as 'is' can you fathom that, would indicating the consequence of an imagined event or situation. non of the quotes you are claiming refer to potential contain future tense words like would, therefore are present or past meaning they aren't referring to potential 



So referring to potential??
Yes but they aren't the same quote retard, just cos Lucas is referring to potential in one quote doesn't mean ALL his quotes are referencing potential durrrr



I never said he directly referred to Anakin's potential
errrm yes you did about 20 times 



 So to line up with other Lucas quotes (the one that says Anakin cannot beat Sidious during ROTS) it's clear that Anakin's comparison to the emperor is also based upon potential.
No its not cos they are different quotes, some not even from the same interview 



Yup, which is what my argument is.  The quote in it's entirety is referring to potential, therefore the comparison between Anakin and Sidious is one of potential and not actualized power.

ITS NOT EVEN THE SAME FUCKING QUOTE OH MY GOD


I never disputed Sidious was looking for an apprentice that could surpass him that much is obviously true given the rule of two, obviously Sidious wants a successor, it does not preclude Anakin being as powerful as Sidious at all



You don't lose power when your limbs get cut off.  You lose potential.  Vader's actualized power never changed.  Same way Maul never lost power after TPM, he only lost potential which was eventually restored by Talzin.

Maul did lose potential, Talzin didn't restore his potential she restored his power after he lost it, or are you seriously implying Anakin was the same power as Vader who Lucas confirmed to be weaker than TPM Kenobi, so do you think Anakin is weaker than TPM Kenobi, or do you just pick and choose which Lucas quotes to use and come up with your own retarded interpretations for them, fool.

your scaling would look something like 

TPM Kenobi > ROTS Yoda > Sidious > Vader > Anakin >> ROTS Kenobi  


Yeah that is my fault, I'm getting used to this formatting and I thought used that as an actual quote.
You still thought it was an actual quote even after I explained that it wasn't and underlined and upsized 'NOT' in big vibrant red letters



When did I say Sidious was talking directly to Kenobi??  I said Sidious was musing that Kenobi would get destroyed by Vader, which in itself doesn't put Vader above Sidious.
Huh ? why would Sidious after being defeated by HoC tell HoC that Kenobi wouldn't be a match for Vader, Kenobi has nothing to do with it, he is talking to HoC, saying that HoC (who just defeated Sidious) would not be able to beat Vader. again. read please.



Overruled by higher G-canon sources, one being Lucas who said MFV couldn't beat Sidious, the other being the movie itself when Sidious says "Darth Vader WILL BECOME more powerful than either of us"
Lucas never said that, that's just your retarded no basis claim
and why would Sidious musing Vader will become more powerful than them both preclude his power already being on par with them? also you said yourself last post that we apparently shouldn't take IU opinions seriously, so is that another concession  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187



iamthatretard wrote:Mace also says Yoda is inferior to Grievous, IU opinions aren't infallible.  In fact, they are actually the opposite.  And I've already explained how the tier system refers to overall power.


That quote is referring to potential.  It's referring to Skywalker potential and how Anakin was supposed to surpass Sidious, but now Luke will.
ok THAT IS A DIFFERENT QUOTE, also its referring to Anakin and how he was supposed to become infinitely more powerful than the Emperor, so does not preclude parity at all in any way shape or form 


all this is saying is that Sidious wanted his a apprentice to become more powerful than himself, That's potential my friend.
never refuted that, you are twisting the quotes meaning completely 


Yup he can't. Don't see how that makes him equal to Sidious though.

For the love of god you are stupid, THAT ISNT EVEN THE QUOTE THAT PUTS HIM EQUAL TO SIDIOUS ITS A DIFFERENT FUCKING QUOTE  Rots game Drallig vs. Yoda - Page 3 815462187

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