Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

February 3rd 2020, 2:12 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

DarthAnt66 wrote:No, that's not what Jaina said. Jaina said Caedus' damage soak "proved how much greater his Force powers were than her own," not that Caedus' damage soak allowed him to contend with a foe with greater Force powers. After a long fight with Caedus, amped Jaina still believed his powers were "much greater" than hers. No reason to backtrack, as you stated this yourself: "Jaina assesses the fight by noting that Caedus's Force powers were far greater than her own even while she was amped." The quote binds amped Jaina significantly below prime Luke, and also shows that Caedus' lack of mentioning of how good Luke is performing is a flawed metric to scale Caedus. I cannot see how you can try to continue the debate beyond this. There's nothing more to grab besides straws.

?? Yes, I know - that's what Jaina the in-universe character said. My point is that Jaina was attributing Caedus's performance exclusively to his greater Force powers, which isn't unfair since she's used to Jacen being far more powerful than her. That doesn't mean that Caedus is necessarily far more powerful than amped Jaina; the fight itself doesn't indicate that (though it does show that Jacen did very well, relatively speaking).

Why are you trusting Jaina's assessment of the sudden powers she got just a few seconds ago relative to Jacen's (current) powers (and she hasn't really interacted with him in years), or specifically disentangling them from his damage soak, over Jacen's far greater knowledge of Luke's (past) power, and of his own power which wasn't a few-minutes long amp?

And again, you ignored the part where the claim isn't that amped Jaina = LotF Luke; it's that amped Jaina is comparable to earlier versions of Luke. You have not established that Caedus cannot contend with those earlier versions, or even be stronger.

No. I argued Luke would not have put his full power into Jaina because he's exhausting so much of his power casting the illusion and imprinting his Force signature from across the fleet. Caedus gave two reasons for why he believes it's Luke (i.e. the Force presence and that Luke can't be two places at once), neither being the power-amp.

Actually, he pointed to his arm and noted that Jaina couldn't have possibly done that.

You don't think it's taxing to overlay Jaina's active body for a prolonged period, across a vast distance,

You're basically saying that amping a tier 7 combatant (in your eyes) to a tier 8 from some miles away while putting an illusion over her face is so unimaginably difficult that Jacen could not even fathom the notion that his uncle could do it?

The distance has been pulled off by Luke before - he's projected himself to Jacen over such distances. The amp (in your quantification of it) isn't even very high tier BM. The body illusion is not even that special - it doesn't compare to creating a lifelike copy of the Rogue Shadow to fly in sync with the real one and fool enemy sensors, to cloak a capital ship, or even to some things that Lumiya or Alema have done. This is arguably sub-Dooku's dopplegangers, so I guess Jacen perceives a determined, bloodlusted Luke's power to be below where we would put Dooku.

It's far more plausible that Jacen is incredulous because Jaina seemed to have the power and weight of Luke Skywalker, at least to the level that Jacen is aware Luke Skywalker to be, aka TUF/DN.

with a hyper-real Force illusion that even Jacen's esoteric illusion-detecting abilities can't pierce?

Revelation (and earlier books) shows that Jacen cannot detect Luke's illusions at all, including one where he was projecting himself from a far distance and talking to him. (and Jacen knows this)

I think you misread the quote? I don't think he's labeling the presences as real specifically because they can bat back blasterfire.

Creating illusions that can affect the physical world is not beyond Jacen's ability.

It's straightforward to say a Force user in the worst mental state ever seen in Star Wars will be super-weak relative to his normal power-level, lol.

Calling it the "worst mental state ever seen in Star Wars" is of course hyperbolic, and again, the point isn't whether Inferno fight Luke is weak relative to 100% LotF Luke. Jacen's understanding of Luke's power does seem to lag a bit, since he was in awe of TUF Luke and IIRC was hesitant on Luke vs. UnuThul, but he presumably doesn't think that Luke would get weaker. And Jacen is obsessed with figuring out a way to defeat Luke, but apparently never went "ah, Luke is now like a tier 8!" I mean, look at his reaction to seeing "Luke" in Invincible - he notes his knowledge that Caedus killed Mara as a reason to be especially concerned, not as a reason to rejoice that Luke is now hindered.

Jacen has noted that Luke restrains himself in the past, but he has always attributed this to his fear of the dark side - he thinks in Invincible that Luke is out for blood, and has had visions of Luke killing him and sitting on his dark throne.

You might have some other Caedus arguments,

Indeed, and they have not been addressed. Caedus has deflected capital ship turbolasers.

He also has scaling above Kyp Durron; maybe more on that later.

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Basically, your entire case is predicated on Jacen not merely being off about current Luke's power, but having absolutely no idea how powerful any meaningful iteration of his uncle is, to just hilarious degrees. Of everyone else, only maybe Mara knows Luke's powers better (maybe). It's just a little ridiculous to attribute complete and utter ignorance to him.

February 3rd 2020, 2:36 am

I’ll switch to Revan

February 3rd 2020, 2:57 am Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)

Gonna take Caedus out of my voting order.

Ant's raised some points that got my noggin joggin. I think we all intuitively know that because Revan is an MMO boss, and game mechanics in MMO boss fights are usually bombastic compared to the cutscenes etc, that we probably have an exaggerated view of what happened "in canon". The dialogue during the fight indicates it's a good fight, but I'm not sure it should be taken hyper literally either. It's like dialogue from any fight in a video game where every time you hit a boss or dodge him he screams out "asshole stay still!". It's pseudocanon but nonetheless scripted.

Still, hard to deny that taking on such a strike team is an immense feat, and we know that such a strike team was needed because it's not a fight where you have the option to drop a few players. The question becomes, how did Revan do it, considering how infrequently we see 8v1s that aren't a complete slaughter?

I think there's a few reasons, namely:

1. 8 people cannot all hit 1 target at the same time, they can only do it with space and a clear shot.

2. It's easy to hit your teammates in such a chaotic situation.

3. Revan has several abilities and traits that lend well to survivability: regeneration, teleportation, a keen mind for tactics. He won't be in one place for long, can tank some lethal hits and will use the enemy against each other.

4. The nexus could well have been fueling Revan's use of more esoteric and useful abilities which he wouldn't be able to spam off nexus, meanwhile everyone else gets a generic power boost (and battle med but I digress).

5. When you have 8 people, it's not like all the attention is focused on you. You get a chance for a breather which you typically don't in a focused 1v1, you get to take a few pot shots, you don't have to overly commit yourself. So in a way everyone here could have been taking it a bit easier on Revan than they would someone in a typical duel.

We know Revan stands head and shoulders above all these people, but I think this fight is for lack of a better term more of a 1vFodder type deal... the same way Revan fighting Malak is more impressive than Revan fighting the SF armies because Malak is the boss.

It's the same principle here, in that Revan isn't pitting his power squarely against one boss, but is using a wide array of tactics and advantages to outmaneuver and whittle down a group of fodder. Only in this case it's not 100 fodder Sith but 8 powerful and skilled Jedi, Sith and gunslingers, so it's in a weird middle ground between the two.

Ant's done a good job of highlighting Revan's unique advantages like teleportation, regen etc, but in a way that has kind of undermined his case because it's these very abilities that the MMO uses to explain why Revan is able to last in such a fight. It's not linearly transferrable to say, Revan vs Plagueis, or simple enough to say "well lets see Plagueis or Starkiller fight a team like this". Whether they can or not, it's entirely possible they would do worse than Revan in such a fight but still be better than him one to one.

Also, while Revan holding a corpse together with sheer will is an advantage in that he can tank physical trauma and ignore stuff like bloodloss, the principle remains the same as usual: his will, his spirit, the source of his power, is finite. When it fatigues or has taken too much damage, he collapses or dies. And having to hold himself together means he wastes power doing what his body would normally do for him.

February 3rd 2020, 3:30 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Several of those on the strike team were not Force sensitives. This really should nullify the overwhelming nature of the numbers; e.g., a near-death Plagueis is vaporizing entire squads of armored maladian assassins with uncharged TK, so if you translated him directly into Revan's place, he would presumably be able to just get rid of half of the strike team with a gesture (while nexus-amped Revan's charged TK didn't even incapacitate them).

Of course, to step outside of the typical vs. debating style scaling for a bit, there is clearly a variation in source material with regards to how effectively non-Force sensitives can fight Force users. Realistically no competent Force user should lose to Jango Fett without special circumstances, but that seems to happen anyway. Nitpicking Plagueis vaporizing the armored assassins and applying it to the Revan fight would seem to ignore that translation.

However, applying holistics and that level of meta-coherence to the lore would have to apply both ways and nullify a lot of pro-Revan arguments as well.

February 3rd 2020, 4:10 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

I didn't have time to finish earlier so as an addendum:

Hopefully nobody mistook my point about medium exaggeration as being about that (all mediums are exaggerated). The main point was that because the medium in question (MMO boss fights) is exaggerated, it's important to tow the line between it being informative of how the fight went and it being more flashy than a normal cutscene. An example I guess is comparing Malgus to Revan. Malgus doesn't do anything but use melee, TK and lightning. Funnily enough he can also he soloed. He uses no abilities that lend well to a group fight (I wonder if he would use Maelstrom if he was an Operation boss). Whereas Revan uses a wide variety of powers that lend themselves well to survivability and crowd control.

Secondly: I think it's self explanatory why the most knowledgeable, advanced, powerful Force wielders use predominantly the same powers (sabers, TK, lightning) in one to one combat against similarly powerful foes. Because these are the most effective abilities for that task. You use a screwdriver for screwing, and a hammer for hammering. You use teleportation to jump around and confuse a group, lightning to annihilate a lone enemy. Revan using his weirder abilities would probably be a waste of time unless the circumstances were irregular.

Revan's genuinely insanely skilled and versatile, unlike Caedus who is touted as having lots of oddball powers but never really puts them to use when it matters. And he can take a beating well past his expiration date. But I'm unconvinced he's a special snowflake in regards to the way we normally assess these fights.

Doesn't take away from his more straightforward feats, mind you. He has some decent scaling (honestly his KOTOR and KOTOR2 stuff is better than the shit from TotJ due to how sorcery is only useful against muggles/fodder apart from in some extreme cases, and Revan doesn't scale from Zannah or Wyyrlok's sorcery). His novel feats are also among his best. Not enough to stop Plagueis, Windu or Starkiller from fisting him to death, but enough for the likes of Caedus.

February 3rd 2020, 9:19 am Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)

Ant’s points have failed to convince me, and Elm has done a great point of responding to them. I’ll like to add my own thoughts in defence of Plagueis, and why he should be considered over Revan. As in my previous post, I’ll point everyone towards these two sources of information:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t387-ss-darth-plagueis-meatpants-vs-galen-marek-arkhamasylum3

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2225-ss-the-apprenticeship-tournament-darth-plagueis-the-ellimist-vs-luke-skywalker-darthskywalker0

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@BoD

Wanna address some nitpicks with you first from a couple of pages back:

Both of these quotes are in the context that Sidious feared Plagueis had achieved immortality:

[...]

Sidious feared that Plagueis had become immortal and could never therefore be killed by him.

Here’s a section from my SS where I addressed this point:

So Luceno clearly thinks Plagueis had a shot taking Sidious down combatively. But what's more to the point, the idea that Plagueis being immortal was the only concern of Sidious' is more speculative and less based on the facts than my stance. Sidious doesn't seem incredulous at all over the prospect of Plagueis causing the tremor that "shook the stars themselves"; he regards Plagueis as insanely powerful. Plagueis' survival as an immortal entity isn't a possibility that arouses feelings of indifference or amusement in Sidious, but abject fear. Consider that even though he feared Ventress in the Clone Wars and saw her as a threat to his power, that doesn't mean he wouldn't be wary of engaging her. Case and point: he engaged Sidious and Savage, stated threats to the Rule of Two and engaged them in a lightsaber duel. And even though he knew after the fact that Ventress and Maul weren't dead, he was dismissive because they posed no threat to his plans. In other words, this is a singular case where he not only considers a being a threat to his person, he's also in abject fear of that being, even after being boosted in power. Even if Plagueis was unkillable, there's no reason Sidious couldn't capture and imprison Plagueis. If he was significantly more powerful than Plagueis, he wouldn't be so out of character with abject fear and concern for his own personal safety.

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@DarthAnt66

From your introductory post:

I would wager most debaters have Revan's power at least in the ballpark of Caedus' and Plagueis'. If so, it's going to come down to the differentiating characteristics of the three. The rest of this posts highlights Revan's unique advantages and why they make him a relatively far more difficult opponent to defeat.

This feels like a bit of a cop-out. You should be proving why Revan is on the same level of power as Plagueis/Caedus/Windu etc.; especially considering that these guys are comparable to the ROTS titans. Nowhere in your “Power” section have you explained why scaling above Kreia and/or Revan’s performance against Vitiate puts him on this power level intuitively.

The attempts to dismiss the Sidious supremacy quotes just seems overcomplicated. Really, the argument is clearly made specifically to provide a counter to Sidious being the GOAT by TPM and to serve Revan’s Vitiate scaling.

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ILS has demonstrated why Revan is virtually the most optimal guy to face an eight-man strike team, at least it’s the best way to utilise his set of skills. And of course, it follows that you can’t conflate this to how he would fight a single opponent. Plus, both times he used teleportation was on a nexus. Also, people should consider that the Banites have gone beyond hoarding special techniques and abilities. The real lessons are passed down in unrecorded training sessions. Furthermore, as ILS pointed out, there’s a reason why most high tiers don’t use many different types of powers all the time, even though they would know them (Sidious, for example, could pull off way more things than lightning). So I’m not really seeing why Revan’s teleportation (assuming he can actually do it off-nexus) would prove to be much more than a minor surprise factor when Ant has failed to prove why Revan is “in the same ballpark” power-wise with ROTS titans.

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Also, Caedus/Revan aren’t the only ones who can soak damage, from my earlier post:

In terms of endurance, we all know of the Maladian assassination, where Plagueis massively pre-prime was atomising people while suffering heavy blood loss, half his jaw missing and one of his hearts in cardiac arrest. He fended off against dozens of assassins who were trained and capable of killing Jedi, killing most of them before Sidious arrived to help him.

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Not really convinced Revan’s power and/or his abilities can outperform those of Plagueis, Caedus or even Windu (who’s a nigh virtual peer of Yoda); Malgus would require a larger boost to defeat any of the latter three.

My vote remains with Plagueis.

February 3rd 2020, 9:38 am

anybody know what the votes are as of now?

February 3rd 2020, 9:40 am

Around 13-10-9 iirc

February 3rd 2020, 10:06 am

Plagueis: 12
Caedus: 11
Revan: 10
Geth: 1
And some other ones wasted on characters like Tano and Jooj.

February 3rd 2020, 10:10 am

Meatpants wrote:Plagueis: 12
Caedus: 11
Revan: 10
Geth: 1
And some other ones wasted on characters like Tano and Jooj.

smh my head

February 3rd 2020, 10:35 am

I'll vote Caedus

February 3rd 2020, 10:44 am

You already voted for Caedus in pages 2-3.

Anyway, good discussion yesterday. I expect another twenty post exchange later this afternoon/tonight after classes. Good luck to all. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 8 1289255181

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 8 1289255181

February 3rd 2020, 10:52 am

@Meatpants

So Luceno clearly thinks Plagueis had a shot taking Sidious down combatively. But what's more to the point, the idea that Plagueis being immortal was the only concern of Sidious' is more speculative and less based on the facts than my stance. Sidious doesn't seem incredulous at all over the prospect of Plagueis causing the tremor that "shook the stars themselves"; he regards Plagueis as insanely powerful. Plagueis' survival as an immortal entity isn't a possibility that arouses feelings of indifference or amusement in Sidious, but abject fear. Consider that even though he feared Ventress in the Clone Wars and saw her as a threat to his power, that doesn't mean he wouldn't be wary of engaging her. Case and point: he engaged Sidious and Savage, stated threats to the Rule of Two and engaged them in a lightsaber duel. And even though he knew after the fact that Ventress and Maul weren't dead, he was dismissive because they posed no threat to his plans. In other words, this is a singular case where he not only considers a being a threat to his person, he's also in abject fear of that being, even after being boosted in power. Even if Plagueis was unkillable, there's no reason Sidious couldn't capture and imprison Plagueis. If he was significantly more powerful than Plagueis, he wouldn't be so out of character with abject fear and concern for his own personal safety.

Fair points, but we also know that Sidious has absolutely no idea how powerful Plagueis is, as I addressed in my response to Corvinus:

You miss the clear context of the quotes from the novel:

Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn’t be certain he had learned all of Plagueis’s secrets—“his sorcerer’s ways,” as the Sun Guards referred to them — including the ability to prevent beings from dying. He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind? Such questions were precisely what had driven generations of Sith apprentices ultimately to challenge their Masters. The uncertainty about who was the more powerful. The need to test themselves, to face the definitive trial.

The point here is that honestly, Sidious had no clue what the gap between Plagueis and himself was, which is the point of the Rule of Two. Plagueis deliberately kept his full power and how it compared to Sidious' out of his apprentice's awareness, lest his apprentice decide that he could overthrow him. Sidious has absolutely no idea how powerful he is in comparison to Plagueis, so his musing that he could be a level or two behind - and the suggestion that the two even at this point could be comparable - makes this comparison irrelevant.

Sidious' fears are two-fold:

1) He fears Plagueis truly became immortal and has evolved beyond Sheev's abilities to destroy.
2) Sheev isn't actually aware of the limits of Plagueis' strength. His fears are based on a reverence of Plagueis emphasised throughout the novel, as shown above. We also have Plagueis being wary of antagonising pre-boost Sidious, who while Sidious doesn't know the limits of Plagueis' strength, Plagueis knows - or more accurately, can predict - the limits of Sheev's.

All of these speculations about post-boost Sheev and Plagueis' comparability are founded around Sidious' insecurity around his own power, but we have explicit evidence he had no idea what Plagueis' limits and full power looked like. Sidious' fear isn't proof that Plagueis actually is more/comparably powerful, merely that Sidious fears the possibility of an immortal, invulnerable being with mysterious power limits he himself isn't sure of. What we do have is Plagueis doing everything he can to avoid angering Sidious:

Palpatine nodded. “The sniveling toady knows about the blockade. I suspect that he’s on the loose, and out for profit.”

Damask’s eyes flashed yellow. “This is what happens when beings are promoted beyond their level of competence!”

Palpatine tensed in anger.

“Not you,” Damask said quickly. “Gunray and his ilk! The Force harrows and penalizes us for consorting with those too ignorant to appreciate and execute our designs!”

Palpatine took comfort in the fact that even Plagueis had his limits. “I failed to heed your words about sudden reversals.”

Damask frowned at him, then relaxed. “I ignore my own advice. The blockade must wait.”

“I will recall Maul,” Palpatine said.
Damask’s eyes flashed yellow. “This is what happens when beings are promoted beyond their level of competence!”

Palpatine tensed in anger.

“Not you,” Damask said quickly. “Gunray and his ilk! The Force harrows and penalizes us for consorting with those too ignorant to appreciate and execute our design

Palpatine took comfort in the fact that even Plagueis had his limits. “I failed to heed your words about sudden reversals.”

Damask frowned at him, then relaxed. “I ignore my own advice. The blockade must wait.”

“I will recall Maul,” Palpatine said.

February 3rd 2020, 11:04 am

Isv wrote:Revan dies

IG cries

February 3rd 2020, 11:15 am

Meatpants wrote:Plagueis: 12
Caedus: 11
Revan: 10
Geth: 1
And some other ones wasted on characters like Tano and Jooj.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 8 1019854026

February 3rd 2020, 12:32 pm

So Luceno clearly thinks Plagueis had a shot taking Sidious down combatively. But what's more to the point, the idea that Plagueis being immortal was the only concern of Sidious' is more speculative and less based on the facts than my stance. Sidious doesn't seem incredulous at all over the prospect of Plagueis causing the tremor that "shook the stars themselves"; he regards Plagueis as insanely powerful. Plagueis' survival as an immortal entity isn't a possibility that arouses feelings of indifference or amusement in Sidious, but abject fear. Consider that even though he feared Ventress in the Clone Wars and saw her as a threat to his power, that doesn't mean he wouldn't be wary of engaging her. Case and point: he engaged Sidious and Savage, stated threats to the Rule of Two and engaged them in a lightsaber duel. And even though he knew after the fact that Ventress and Maul weren't dead, he was dismissive because they posed no threat to his plans. In other words, this is a singular case where he not only considers a being a threat to his person, he's also in abject fear of that being, even after being boosted in power. Even if Plagueis was unkillable, there's no reason Sidious couldn't capture and imprison Plagueis. If he was significantly more powerful than Plagueis, he wouldn't be so out of character with abject fear and concern for his own personal safety.

I addressed this in our SS, though. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 8 1220391476

February 3rd 2020, 1:17 pm

I vote Revan (idk whether I already changed my vote).

February 3rd 2020, 2:26 pm

I retract my vote.

February 3rd 2020, 2:33 pm

After very much thinking i decide to vote Revan

February 3rd 2020, 2:42 pm

After reading everything over, il admittingly digress that ant, and MP have both done well in making me hesitant on who i wanted to side with, Plageuis and Revan.
However, BoD's final post regarding plags comparability to TPM sheev, as well as the vasy scaling sheev already boasted even as of the end of TPM, makes me lean towards plageuis in a final bout. I dont feel as if Revan can weather the storm that is the offensive capability of plageuis without signifigant difficulty, and i am going to side with Plageuis for now.

Changing my vote to plageuis, abeit hesitantly.

Gethzerion, Darish Vol, Pre Pool taalon, Revan, all need to enter this list before a cap off at top 20.

February 3rd 2020, 3:00 pm Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Summary so far -

Why Plagueis > Revan

There is no good counter to the supremacy quotes. Lucasarts policy says that the DK novels (which aren’t the only quotes…) are canon in Legends. “A long time ago” doesn’t mean that there’s a literal physical being in the universe writing this - it’s just a reference to the opening crawls. Likewise, unrelated errors in sources, which can be found almost *anywhere* (and some of them can be rationalized) do not offer grounds to blanket dismiss a statement that is repeated numerous times across multiple sources. Likewise, personal dislike of the supremacy quotes isn’t an argument against them.

That's not to even start on the TPM Mauls supremacy quotes...

The counter to the **insane* lightning MM feat is nonsense. So as we see, a half-asleep, drunk Plagueis can tank lightning from Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history, without a barrier. The argument that because his clothes weren’t affected, the lightning must be weaker, makes no sense; Force attacks don’t have to have environmental collateral damage beyond their target. Ant has already acknowledged that the lightning may have just been used a different mechanism for dealing damage. The key point here is that any claim that the lightning is weaker or cannot scale to Sidious’s power (>>>>>>> Bane’s, whose lightning can kill lightsaber-proof orbalisks) must handle the fact that SIDIOUS WAS EXPLICITLY DRAWING MORE DEEPLY ON THE DARK SIDE THAN HE EVER HAD.

A vastly pre-prime Plagueis and vastly, vastly pre-prime apprentice Palpatine unbalanced the entire cosmic Force through sheer power, something that was unprecedented in Star Wars.

Revan’s special feats were on one of the most powerful nexuses in Star Wars. It was more than just the Yavin IV nexus - it was on a nexus within that nexus. Nor can you say that it would be trivial - multiple characters in-universe explicitly note its overwhelming power. Furthermore, it has been demonstrated how Satele Shan, who was overwhelmed by the nexus, dispersing her BM across her allies could not have hindered Revan to a greater extent than the nexus amped him.

Revan cannot scale to Vitiate/Ziost because he needed a super-weapon in a super-nexus to charge from for two minutes just to damage life in a one kilometer radius. It has been shown that the “he was targeting the fleet!” argument makes zero sense either grammatically or given that the fleet wasn’t within a kilometer.

Jacen Reaction Scaling

Caedus has more knowledge of Luke’s power than perhaps any other person. He may not know 100% LotF Luke, but he knows 100% TUF Luke and probably knows close to 100% DN Luke. He’s even very specifically analyzed the mechanics of Luke’s restraint to his power and how to unleash it in TUF.

Caedus thought amped Jaina was Luke, and was still holding his own. He was carefully analyzing the situation and came to this conclusion; then, later on, the possibility of it being an illusion is brought up, and he dismisses it. One of the grounds for doing so was that Jaina could not have possibly been that powerful. However, Jacen is obviously aware that Luke can cast illusions and amp people with BM, so the only factor that would make it so impossible to imagine that it was Luke’s trickery (which had just manifested a book earlier multiple times) was that Jaina had the power of Luke (or at least ~ what Jacen has seen before, aka >>> EoDE), and that someone actually imposing their full power on a vastly weaker combatant from miles away was unheard of. If “Luke” were suspiciously super-weak, Jacen would’ve found the illusion explanation far more believable.

Caedus did not believe Inferno Luke was hindered. He reflects on the battle more than once afterwards, and is obsessed with analyzing any way to exploit Luke’s weaknesses, yet he never got the impression that he was hindered. It’s very plausible that Luke was hindered relative to 100% LotF Luke, but not relative to earlier incarnations that still scale far above EoDE Luke.

February 3rd 2020, 3:11 pm Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

A small case for Starkiller, consisting of 3 key points. My post may not be as detailed as some others, but that's due to lack of time, and lack of investment.

1) The raw power Galen is boasting must be immense. Firstly, he's described as having Luke Skywalker level potential:

Spoiler:

Considering Luke himself went from failing to lift an X-Wing to giving Vader a decent fight within a short span of time, the amount of growth Galen experienced must have been immense, given that he was trained far more ruthlessly than Luke and for far longer (he experienced a "decade and a half of torture and abuse") With that immense power growth, Galen must be able to perform some truly immense Force feats, like I don't know, re-directing an ISD, for instance:

Spoiler:

Or defending himself from heat comparable to that in "the outer layers of a star" while shifting The Salvation, before atomising it:

Spoiler:

So, yeah his raw power is clearly immense. I don't recall Revan, Caedus, or Plagueis performing wacky environmental feats like that. However, while I have showcased his raw power nicely, some may be wondering, what about combative examples? How effectively can SK use this power in a fight? That brings us to point 2.

2) Galen has been shown to utterly dominate high-level combatants with his incredible power. For example, at the end of TFU, he ragdolls Vader:

Spoiler:

Considering that Sidious cannot ragdoll TCW Darth Maul - he needs to wait for an opening which he immediately "pounces" on with a "snarl" - this feat is clearly highly impressive and definitely places him bare minimum as a high tier 8 even if you somehow think Vader is this tier 7, Kit Fisto tier combatant. The only way to consider this unimpressive is if you don't think Vader is even a tier 7 which I'm assuming most of you do.

Spoiler:

The gap between Vader and Starkiller is reflected further when Galen destroys an army of Starkiller clones that could have "easily" overpowered Vader despite exhausting the vast majority of his reserves on destroying The Salvation just prior:

Spoiler:

The only one with feats of dominating combatants in such a manner is Revan (e.g. his fight with Nyriss), meanwhile, Plagueis lacks feats of utterly destroying established opposition, and Caedus has consistently shown inability to dominate high-level combatants (see his fights with Katarn, Mara, Sing, and his statements on Saba). So, yeah, Galen has shown to be able to effectively utilise his raw power - dominating powerful opponents in such a way that virtually none of the other contenders have shown. However, if you want more evidence of his power, here's a final point.

3) Galen has shown to be able to contend with Sidious, who's credited several times as the most powerful Sith in history, placing him above Sith like Vitiate whose capabilities I'm sure you're all aware of. Note that, if you remove Caedus's proximity with Luke (which Ant has done a decent job at doing) then he really doesn't have anything of this nature (i.e. a feat against a high tier combatant), and Plagueis is a massive boost of power and a decade of growth away from Sheev. The only other one here who has feats against opposition like this is Revan (depending on how you view his fight and telepathic war with Vitiate). Anyway, here is the feat in its entirety:

Spoiler:

Observe that Sidious was in "desperation" per the text, so he was clearly going all out. While one may point out that this is Galen's POV and thus is fallible, I don't find this argument particularly convincing for a multitude of reasons, but the main one is that Sidious is never remotely implied or stated to be feigning this desperation. This is Galen's pivotal moment of self-sacrifice, wherein he holds out against Sheev's Lightning for the rebels. Arguing that Sheev could have just bypassed his defences if he were actually trying seems to go against the core intent of the passage given that Galen's willpower is emphasised, not Sheev being a retard and giving the rebels a chance to escape by not utilising his full power against Galen. It's noted in the passage that Galen "had to see this through" and how "he clung to his consciousness with a feverish will", yet you're telling me that the writer wanted to convey that Galen's struggle was fruitless and that Sidious could have overwhelmed him if he pleased? That's utter nonsense which, once again, is implied nowhere and seems to go against the obvious narrative intent.

Anyway, to summarise:

Galen's performing environmental feats none of the combatants have demonstrated the ability to replicate, ragdolled high tier combatants (which Plagueis hasn't shown he can do, and which Caedus has failed to do on multiple occasions). On top of all this, he held his own against the most powerful Sith in history (Caedus has no way to compare to this besides Luke proximity), who is demonstrably far beyond Plagueis. While other characters may have other advantages they can use to bridge it, there clearly is a distinct raw power gap between Galen and everyone else here. So, yeah, vote Galen (or Revan, he's got a lot going for him and seems to be able to somewhat match what Galen can do). And if none of you feels like voting Galen right now due to other characters, at least consider this case when voting in future rounds.

Anyway, I wrote this in like 20 minutes, so I'm sorry if it's filled with typos, I just felt like wanking Galen after finishing editing and shit for my post to Memepants (though I've still got sourcing and transferring). Also, if anyone responds, it'll probably take me a while to get back to you, and I might not even manage to respond. So, yeah, if you're planning on writing a response keep this in mind.

February 3rd 2020, 3:31 pm

Put me down for Caedus

February 3rd 2020, 3:33 pm

@BoD

In its simplicity is its weakness. You've got two quotes: one which doesn't compare Jinn and Windu beyond saying they're > Anoon, and the other which establishes Mace as superior by an undefined and frankly unquantifiable margin. Neither of them support your case that Jinn was ~ Mace especially since one literally establishes Mace's outright superiority in deadliness.

Equally, neither of them relate to power growth or raw power, which Mace should be considerably stronger than Jinn in.

Yeah, them being equals was never my case. I said Jinn was “mentioned in the same breath as Mace”, which he was. There’s no arguing with that. It doesn’t make them equals, which they aren’t, and is not what I said. What it does do is inform the reader that Jinn and Mace are the standout duellists that Bondara has sparred with. Not Mace and any member of the B-team or Mace and any other Jedi, but Mace and Jinn.

As to Mace being deadlier, yeah he is – which is why I posted the source stating it and specifically put it in the scaling chain. It seems you follow the scaling chain and agree with it, so what are you even debunking?

Power growth or raw power? Again, not my case. You either have a false premise for your argument or you are strawmanning.

You've proven my point for me. Your quote attributes Qui-Gon and Mace as simply being superior to Anoon, nothing more. Anakin doesn't need to be equal to Yoda for this to be true as Mace is just saying his raw power is around that level, nor do the Sith in that quote need to be on the same power level as it's just to say that they're powerful. Your quote is no different.

This is just nonsensical.

Bondara is comparing his contemporaries. Jedi he has actually sparred with. Mace has sensed Anakin’s and Yoda’s power and deems Kar to be in the same ballpark. The Sith quote what, lists humans and near-humans across different eras? So not contemporaries, or sparring partners who know each other and can compare them to others.

Try bringing in relevant quotes rather than pulling mental gymnastics to say my reply proved your point .

Both of these quotes are in the context that Sidious feared Plagueis had achieved immortality:

Sidious feared that Plagueis had become immortal and could never therefore be killed by him.

This only proves that Sidious does not actually believe himself to be Plagueis’s superior as he doesn’t bat an eye at Plagueis being powerful enough to both dominate the Force (through Midichlorian Manipulation) into granting him physical immortality, and cause such tremors as the one he felt.

If he really did think himself more powerful he would be confident in his ability to disable and contain Plagueis, even if he couldn’t kill him. Instead, he showed fear and wariness and wouldn’t even go near the body physically.

Pure speculation. We have no idea if he experienced it. Zannah for example didn't when she killed Bane.

No, this is something that actually happened earlier in the novel:

Darth Plagueis wrote:With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.

As for Zannah, she actually did, as Bane attempted Essence Transfer and she fought against it, winning the mental battle and taking a portion of his power into her. I imagine this is why Luceno included such a scene, as a call back to the Bane novels:

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:From a safe distance, the Iktotchi had watched the two figures from her dreams wage battle. She was an impartial observer, having no preference as to which one would emerge victorious. She only wanted to serve whoever proved the stronger.

The conflict had been brief but intense: she had marveled at the speed of their blades, their movements so fast she could barely follow the action. She had felt the awesome power of the Force unleashed through bursts of lightning and the sinister tendrils that crawled up from the ground. She shivered in anticipation with the knowledge that she, too, could one day learn to wield such power.

She had seen Bane knock the woman to the ground and slap her weapon away, only to have his arm hewn off by the touch of one of the black tentacles. And then there had been a flash so bright she had been forced to close her eyes and look away.

When she looked back Bane was gone, his body reduced to a pile of ash. The blond woman still lay on the ground, dazed but alive. The deadly tendrils were nowhere to be seen.

Cautiously she approached the scene. Bane’s severed arm lay on the ground, but the rest of his body had been consumed by the crimson flare. In the instant before she had looked away, however, she had felt something.

Even from a distance, she had sensed an incredible burst of power—the same power she had sensed in Bane himself. She didn’t know how it was possible, but it almost seemed as if the Dark Lord’s life energy had burst free of his physical form in one glorious instant, releasing itself upon the material world. Then, as suddenly as she had sensed the presence, it was gone, vanishing like an animal gone to ground.

Crazy as it might seem, there was only one place she could imagine it could have gone.

The woman on the ground shifted, her eyes fluttering open as she rose slowly to her feet. She moved awkwardly and couldn’t seem to stand up straight, as if she was unfamiliar with how her own limbs and muscles worked … though this could simply have been the result of exhaustion from the battle.

She shook her blond head from side to side, and the motion seemed to restore some sense of her equilibrium. Standing straight and tall, she turned and fixed the Iktotchi with a cold stare.

Knowing how insane her words would sound, Cognus hesitated before asking, “Lord Bane?”

“Bane is gone,” the woman replied, her voice confident and strong. “I am Darth Zannah, Dark Lord of the Sith and your new Master.”

Zannah is the first one to take in Bane’s power, which is passed down the Banite line from master to successor.

Sidious' significant power growth suggests pre-boost Sidious' growth =/= post-boost Sidious' growth.

You have to prove that, rather than just saying it and expecting me to take it at face value despite evidence to the contrary.

It's to show power growth and skill growth are not necessarily the same for every being. Plagueis' power growth doesn't mean Anakin for example grew at the same rate.

We’re not talking about other beings, we are talking about Sidious. Anakin’s power growth bears no relevance.

February 3rd 2020, 3:33 pm

@The Ellimist: Classes are over. May the odds be ever in your favor. ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis - Page 8 1289255181