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Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 20th 2020, 11:08 pm
SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) O4cea2c

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This thread is apart of "The Apprenticeship Tournament". You can read the other debate here:

__________________________________________________

Mentor: The Ellimist
Students: IdrisianGraecus and Meatpants
Character: Darth Plagueis as of Darth Plagueis
__________________________________________________

Mentor: DarthSkywalker0
Students: Jacen and HellfireUnit
Character: Luke Skywalker as of Dark Empire 1: The Destiny of a Jedi.
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Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. There will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of moderators.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.

  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.

  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.


Last edited by Jacen on February 5th 2020, 12:53 am; edited 1 time in total
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 21st 2020, 7:38 am
Where’s the banner I made?
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 21st 2020, 11:50 am
I've decided to use the banners I used in the original thread, nothing against the individual banners.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 22nd 2020, 11:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)

The Power of Darth Plagueis


Character count (includes in-text citations): 8,595

Elm, IG and I will be kicking off with the first post of the tourney. @TeamHarr now has one week to write their introduction. 

I. The two most powerful Sith in history


As of The Phantom Menace, Darth Sidious was the most powerful Sith of all time (Link ). The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes that “In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.” Thus, Sidious killed Plagueis when he had the “skill and ability” to do so; note that the quote also refers to the Banite tradition of killing one’s master when this has been achieved, “In true Sith tradition”. We know that typically when the apprentice has challenged the master, it has been a fight of near equals. One may cite Malak and Revan; Bane and Zannah; Gravid and Gean etc. Sidious also implies that such has been the way of apprentices in the Banite tradition, the doubt of whether they are strong enough to defeat their master, “He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind? Such questions were precisely what had driven generations of Sith apprentices ultimately to challenge their Masters. The uncertainty about who was the more powerful.” (Source: Plagueis) Additionally, Sidious refers to Plagueis as his equal in power during his attack: “Plagueis who attempted to turn his equally powerful apprentice into a messenger and mere intermediary.” (Source: Plagueis). In fact, the only reason why he attempted to challenge Plagueis was because the dark side whispered to him to do so; with Plagueis heavily intoxicated, unsuspecting and sleeping for the first time in twenty years, he had an opportunity he probably wouldn’t have again, indicating that the two were comparable in power. One would also doubt that Plagueis would suffer having Sidious being considerably more powerful than himself.  

One of the unsupported assumptions held by some in the community is that blurbs being “subjective” essentially completely invalidates them (aka N-canon). However, the fact is that they’re published material, and like any other “subjective” material - such as an IU source or a character’s POV - are still an authority, especially if they can be backed up by corroborating evidence. Per the Lucasfilm guidelines that this debate follows, all material published by Lucasfilm outside of what we visually see in the movies is C-canon, continuity canon. So yes, Plagueis being the most powerful Sith Lord in history is an IU statement that has perfect validity within Legends continuity, and yes it can be backed up via corroborative evidence. As cited above, Sidious kills Plagueis “upon receiving the skill and ability to do so.” It can’t also be a coincidence that Sidious is cited as the most powerful Sith in history during the events of TPM. Consider Sidious’ opinion of Plagueis merely two years before TPM:

Plagueis wrote:Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side.

It appears then that Sidious surpassed Plagueis in power at some time around TPM, at which point he became the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and had then received the “skill and ability” to challenge Plagueis. This implication suggests that Sidious only had power enough to actually win against his master, not that he was considerably more powerful, and since he was the most powerful Sith in history and only just surpassed Plagueis circa TPM, that makes Plagueis the second most powerful Sith in history, scaling him above all previous Sith in power.

Considering also that Plagueis trained Sidious in the Banite arts, he’d also be comparably skilled as a duelist and from a Force mastery and knowledge perspective. Thus, Darth Plagueis can be established as comparable in power and combative ability to the most powerful Sith Lord in history, ergo he scales above Sith such as Vitiate, Malak and Exar Kun in power. Seeing as Luke as of the beginning of DE has yet to demonstrate the powers and ability to match even Exar Kun, Vitiate, Malak (i.e. being less powerful than the Dark Jedi C'baoth merely a year or two before DE) or other incredibly powerful Sith, it's doubtful he can match Darth Plagueis, who scales above them in power.

II. Midichlorian Manipulation


A. DAMAGE MITIGATION


Upon being attacked by Sidious, Plagueis didn’t bring up his barrier, despite “the Force gathering in him like a storm”, he “stopped short of defending himself.” Plagueis was challenging Sidious and was in denial that he was slowly suffocating (Sidious’ first web of lightning had disabled Plagueis’ respirator). Then, Sidious followed with another tangle of lightning, now “drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had”. Plagueis took the blast without defending himself. Then he managed to stand, albeit he fell straight back down. This is extremely impressive. Plagueis was so drunk he couldn’t even hold a cup, he hadn’t slept in two decades, he was suffocating and had just been subjected to Sidious unleashing the most potent lightning he had ever used (and this is lightning that scales in power over any previous Sith), and Plagueis still managed to actually get up. Compare this to Yoda taking an unprotected shot of Sidious’ lightning in ROTS which left him temporarily paralysed. This speaks to insane physical endurance, but also to the potency of Plagueis’ midichlorian manipulation.

Darth Bane, whom Sidious in comparison is insanely more powerful, was capable of literally turning people’s bodies to ash (or even wholly incinerate them) with his lightning (Link ). The fact that Plagueis’ body hadn’t been damaged at all despite not having any sort of Force barrier up and Sidious “drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had.” points invariably to the fact that Plagueis was repairing his damaged body quicker than Sidious’ lightning could incinerate it. Sidious even acknowledges that Plagueis was doing this: “Sidious peered at Plagueis through the Force. "Oh, yes, by all means gather your midi-chlorians, Plagueis."”; and when Sidious inspects the body of his former master, he reflects that Plagueis looked almost the same as when he met him many decades ago: “From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier…” So the fact that Plagueis’ body hadn’t been damaged by the lightning means he was repairing his body faster than Sidious’ best lightning could destroy it. 

Considering that Plagueis can mitigate the damage of Sidious’ lightning (which is more potent than any damage Vitiate can unleash) instantaneously means he’s virtually untouchable in a Force battle unless his opponent scales in power above the most powerful Sith in history, and other Sith such as Vitiate.

B. KILLING


Plagueis’ ability to manipulate midichlorians isn’t just one of the most unique techniques in Star Wars, it’s one of the deadliest as well. 

Darth Plagueis wrote:The Jedi routinely performed blood tests to verify the midi-chlorian counts of prospective trainees, but Plagueis had passed beyond the need for such crude measurements. He could not only sense the strength of the Force in another but also perceive the midi-chlorians that individualized Forceful beings. It was that dark side ability that had allowed generations of Sith to locate and initiate recruits. The dispersal of midi-chlorians at the moment of physical death was, for lack of a better term, inexorable. Analogous to his fated confrontation with the Woebegone crew, the moment of death appeared to be somehow fixed in space and time. According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis's gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them-to prolong that state of symbiosis-were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river.

The Banite Sith before Plagueis theorised correctly that the midichlorians follow the will of the Force, which dictated the fixed point in space and time when someone died, and that the midichlorians were aware of this and prepared for such an event to leave their host when they died. Plagueis describes this phenomenon as seemingly “inexorable”, and attempting to prevent this in any way - to go against the will of the Force - was “comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river.” Now, in midichlorian manipulation, it is far more difficult to manipulate one’s own midichlorians than that of others. So when Plagueis heals himself via MM (foregoing a defensive Force barrier) whilst Sidious is drawing on his power like he never had before in his life, Plagueis was executing the hardest possible variation of MM: healing oneself. To tie this off, Plagueis notes that killing someone via manipulation of their midichlorians is even easier than healing someone else, thus creating a scale of difficulty: healing yourself > healing others > killing others. Expanding on this last point, the act of killing someone via MM is the easiest variation of the technique, and it stands to reason that if Plagueis can execute the hardest variation of healing himself to the point where Sidious can’t harm him, it stands to reason that his deadliness in a far more easier application would be many times as efficient.

Darth Plagueis wrote:“Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.”


Veruna’s face was losing color, and his breathing had slowed. “Bring … me back. I can still be … of service … to you …”


“But you are, Your Majesty. A celebrated ancient poet once said that every death lessened him, for he considered himself to be a brother to every living being. I, on the other hand, have come to understand that every death I oversee nourishes and empowers me, for I am a true Sith.”


“No … better than … an Anzati.”


“The brain eaters? What does better than mean to those of us who have passed beyond notions of good and evil? Are you better than Bon Tapalo? Are you better than Queen Padmé Amidala? I am the only one fit to answer the question. Better are those who do my bidding.” Plagueis placed his hand atop Veruna’s. “I’ll remain with you for a while as you meld with the Force. But at some point, I will have to leave you at the threshold to continue on your own.”

In applying the easiest variation of the technique against Veruna, he explains that he instructed the midichlorians to return to the Force (leave his body); note that this is in past tense, Plagueis simply makes a command and the midichlorians follow that command without extra interference - this is reinforced when Plagueis explains he’d leave Veruna and let the process slowly kill him. There’s additionally no reason to believe Plagueis couldn’t accelerate this process should he so choose, considering that he can cause his own midichlorians to regenerate faster than Sidious’ lightning destroys them, and this demonstration is far more difficult than the act of causing another’s midichlorians to leave their body. So it stands to reason that Plagueis can actually kill with MM faster than Sidious could kill someone with his lightning. All he has to do is execute a command.

III. Why Darth Plagueis wins 


So, Plagueis is comparable in power to TPM Sidious, who scales above every other Sith before him. Not only that, but Plagueis can mitigate Sidious' damage by retasking his midichlorians to heal his body instantaneously, preventing it from being destroyed. He can also use the same technique to kill others with at least the same potency by executing a command that kills off their midichlorians - in other words, severing them from the Force. There's no evidence that Luke is capable of either inflicting more Force damage than Sidious could; nor mitigate that same damage. Merely a year or two beforehand he was unable to defeat the Dark Jedi Joruus C'baoth. Plagueis also has generally better displays of augmentation and power. While severely injured and vastly pre-prime, he was capable of fending off dozens and dozens of Jedi-killing assassins whilst fighting to keep his second heart from going into cardiac arrest and was bleeding rapidly. Bursting their eardrums with a Force scream, commanding the floor to literally shake, sending out a wave that was all but atomising these assassins, using barriers to stop them from reaching him, punching through their armored torsos etc. When we compare all that has been mentioned here regarding Plagueis, and compare that to Luke being inferior to a mad Dark Jedi merely a year or two prior to the beginning of Dark Empire, it's easy to conclude that Plagueis, the Sith Lord who surpassed all that came before him, wins easily.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 22nd 2020, 11:29 pm
very good post. disagree with a few things but overall well done. i like all characters being used here, so no bias for now lol (even though i already have someone in mind)
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 23rd 2020, 12:56 am
Really impressive opening. Great Work
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 23rd 2020, 3:51 pm
wow really outstanding post
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on January 24th 2020, 5:20 am
Good post MP/IG. Prepare to be crushed by the might of Skywalker.
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

on March 22nd 2020, 2:12 pm
TEAM DS0 HAS BEEN DISQUALIFIED, AND MEATPANTS WILL BE PROCEEDING TO THE NEXT ROUND. CONGRATULATIONS.
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SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0) Empty Re: SS - The Apprenticeship Tournament - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs Luke Skywalker (DarthSkywalker0)

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