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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 22nd 2020, 7:27 pm
Some people know this, but other people dont, so ill just say it first- i think the Gillard scale is not usable in legends whatsoever. Some people will disagree, but i like to keep strong on this.. I used the 'tier 9' above thing as half bait, half self 'explanatory point im trying to make' as to shorten the process.

Ive been thinking about this after I looked a bit more into his feats. This is no 'super new theory' or 'explanation to something that happened' type thread. Its more of a talkative threads. I wants people's opinions as usual. See who agrees and who doest, why or why not. Pretty simple. 

So, I suppose one of the first things people will say is that Dooku could not possibly be that skilled if he stomped by Anakin like that. Good point, albeit not entirely correct. For this to be an effective counter, one would need to say (and prove) that Anakin destroyed Dooku using skill, and nothing more, and THAT is not the case. Dooku's stamina was low (he did in fact recover some of it, but i doubt it took him back to his peak state), Anakin was far stronger (Dooku was almost dying when trying to defend himself from them), Anakin was faster (covering his field of vision is something not even Yoda could do, if i remember correctly), and Anakin was far more relentless, giving Dooku no ground for a counter of any sort. 

Now that I am done with that, I have Yoda to talk about. I suppose this is simpler than before. Yoda is probably the only person that we know of that ever actually matched Sidious in a fight wherein we are sure that Sidious gave it his all. Mace Windu was surely extremely skilled, and very likely matched Sidious during their fight, but i have found the... idea that Sidious was fighting at his best, at his fullest, to not be well supported. I could be convinced otherwise, of course, but for now, that is where i stand. 

Point is: there is a big possibility that Sidious could've kept an even, somewhat lengthy, ongoing duel while he was holding back against Mace Windu. 

BUT against Yoda, he could not. Yoda was not only skilled enough to match Sidious in a duel, he could do so for quite a good amount of time as well. He did in fact win because of superior speed (quite a good feat of speed in fact- making himself instantly twice as fast, without any sort of struggle or or problem, implying he can not only do it more than once per fight, but also that he may use it for longer periods of time) instead of skill, but other portrayals of said fight seem to show Yoda disarming Sidious without any speed boost. 

So as of now, we have:

Sidious (while likely holding back)= Mace Windu (in a state wherein he is fighting at his best, possibly ever)

Yoda=> Sidious (trying hard)

The obvious... scaling chain that can be pulled out of this is that Yoda is likely better than Sidious, a Sidious is better than a (likely) holding back Sidious, who could evenly match Mace Windu at his peak without much trouble.

Yoda=> Sidious (going all out)> Sidious (likely not going all out)= Mace Windu (at his peak).

NOW we go to Dooku. I would like to actually to talk about Yoda: Dark Rendezvous instead of Attack of the Clones. In AOTC, there really is no doubt that A) Yoda was beating Dooku while holding back, and B) that Yoda was unsure about fighting Dooku and that he may not have been fighting at his fullest. In Y:DR, that is not the case anymore. Yoda is fully willing to kill Dooku at this point, and to unleash his all against him. This time around, Dooku was not completely out of his league, and held his own better than before, against a Yoda who was fighting in a much more relentless manner than the one in AOTC. He had a clear growth in skill, speed, and strength, supported by this https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11133/111339372/6617426-6503048-0451794804-3sgzl.jpg , as well.

He performed better than Mace Windu did against an opponent more skilled and faster than the one Mace Windu faced. 

Yoda (all out)> Dooku

Yoda (all out)=> Sidious (all out)> Sidious (likely holding back)= Mace Windu (at his best).
O-Siri
O-Siri

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 23rd 2020, 12:27 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Some people know this, but other people dont, so ill just say it first- i think the Gillard scale is not usable in legends whatsoever. Some people will disagree, but i like to keep strong on this.. I used the 'tier 9' above thing as half bait, half self 'explanatory point im trying to make' as to shorten the process.

@O-Siri: I agree.

Ive been thinking about this after I looked a bit more into his feats. This is no 'super new theory' or 'explanation to something that happened' type thread. Its more of a talkative threads. I wants people's opinions as usual. See who agrees and who doest, why or why not. Pretty simple. 

So, I suppose one of the first things people will say is that Dooku could not possibly be that skilled if he stomped by Anakin like that. Good point, albeit not entirely correct. For this to be an effective counter, one would need to say (and prove) that Anakin destroyed Dooku using skill, and nothing more, and THAT is not the case.

@O-Siri: I agree. Dooku is probably more technically refined than Anakin. Anakin overwhelmed him with his explosive style and didn't give Dooku any breathing room to set-up once he was fully fired up and all over him. Anakin at his best isn't a technical fighter, he's a pressure fighter, who relies on sheer tenacity, natural talent, instinct, and relentless aggression.  

Dooku's stamina was low (he did in fact recover some of it, but i doubt it took him back to his peak state), Anakin was far stronger (Dooku was almost dying when trying to defend himself from them), Anakin was faster (covering his field of vision is something not even Yoda could do, if i remember correctly), and Anakin was far more relentless, giving Dooku no ground for a counter of any sort. 

Now that I am done with that, I have Yoda to talk about. I suppose this is simpler than before. Yoda is probably the only person that we know of that ever actually matched Sidious in a fight wherein we are sure that Sidious gave it his all. Mace Windu was surely extremely skilled, and very likely matched Sidious during their fight, but i have found the... idea that Sidious was fighting at his best, at his fullest, to not be well supported. I could be convinced otherwise, of course, but for now, that is where i stand. 

@O-Siri: The explanation that requires the least number of assumptions is that Sidious was going all out. 

Point is: there is a big possibility that Sidious could've kept an even, somewhat lengthy, ongoing duel while he was holding back against Mace Windu. 

BUT against Yoda, he could not. Yoda was not only skilled enough to match Sidious in a duel, he could do so for quite a good amount of time as well. He did in fact win because of superior speed (quite a good feat of speed in fact- making himself instantly twice as fast, without any sort of struggle or or problem, implying he can not only do it more than once per fight, but also that he may use it for longer periods of time) instead of skill, but other portrayals of said fight seem to show Yoda disarming Sidious without any speed boost. 

@O-Siri: Yoda did win the duel in the end but Sidious initially held the advantage, Yoda really had to push himself and dig deep to overcome the odds, where's the same isn't true with Dooku, whom he held a comfortable edge over.

So as of now, we have:

Sidious (while likely holding back)= Mace Windu (in a state wherein he is fighting at his best, possibly ever)

Yoda=> Sidious (trying hard)

The obvious... scaling chain that can be pulled out of this is that Yoda is likely better than Sidious, a Sidious is better than a (likely) holding back Sidious, who could evenly match Mace Windu at his peak without much trouble.

Yoda=> Sidious (going all out)> Sidious (likely not going all out)= Mace Windu (at his peak).

NOW we go to Dooku. I would like to actually to talk about Yoda: Dark Rendezvous instead of Attack of the Clones. In AOTC, there really is no doubt that A) Yoda was beating Dooku while holding back, and B) that Yoda was unsure about fighting Dooku and that he may not have been fighting at his fullest. In Y:DR, that is not the case anymore. Yoda is fully willing to kill Dooku at this point, and to unleash his all against him. This time around, Dooku was not completely out of his league, and held his own better than before, against a Yoda who was fighting in a much more relentless manner than the one in AOTC.

@O-Siri: Yoda was conflicted though. He had to fight against his dark side urges. He outright tells Dooku he doesn't want to hurt him. We know from other sources that this type of conflict hinders one's combative effectiveness, Anakin vs Dooku being the prime example. Once he is resolved to kill Dooku out of Jedi compassion, rather than bloodlust, he was Dooku's comfortable superior again.

Actually Yoda's being enraged played into Dooku's hands in a very similar manner in which Obi-Wan's rage did to Maul "Your rage has unbalanced you! That is not the Jedi way is it?"


He had a clear growth in skill, speed, and strength, supported by this https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11133/111339372/6617426-6503048-0451794804-3sgzl.jpg , as well.

He performed better than Mace Windu did against an opponent more skilled and faster than the one Mace Windu faced. 

Yoda (all out)> Dooku

Yoda (all out)=> Sidious (all out)> Sidious (likely holding back)= Mace Windu (at his best).
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 23rd 2020, 12:35 am
i wont answer, since i did say that this was simply so that people could share their thoughts based on what i said. if u want me to reply to anything, i can do it though.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
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Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 23rd 2020, 11:28 am
i gotta say that its a interesting topic however i dont really think gillard is scale is not usable in legends the man worked with lucas who helped him making them that points out that dooku is a 8 windu is also a 8 borderline 9 and anakin,sidious and yoda are 9
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BoD
Level Six
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Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 23rd 2020, 1:07 pm
Sidious wasn't holding back against Mace. 

OT: Dooku definitely isn't a tier 9. He's a top tier 8, and personally I believe Gillard's whole thing about it not being intended for debating so a tier 8 can fight a tier 9 and put up a good fight.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 23rd 2020, 3:00 pm
can u post a source for that?

ok
avatar
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 23rd 2020, 3:03 pm
can u post a source for that?

For him holding back? He repeatedly tries to kill Mace during the fight, including trying to blast him out of the office window while the latter was distracted and out of Vaapad. If Mace hadn't reacted faster, the duel would have ended then and there.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 23rd 2020, 3:05 pm
i mean, anakin too tried to kill obi wan. going for the kill =/= going all out
Sas
Sas

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 28th 2020, 3:21 am
...nah.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 28th 2020, 5:34 am
Well, the Gillard tiers appear to be about overall ability and not just skill given that, for example, Anakin goes from tier 8 to 9 when he uses the dark side even though he presumably doesn't suddenly get more "skilled".

It's difficult to locate where compared to Sidious/Yoda/etc. Dooku falls in terms of technical skill. He gets more hype in that area than the others and seems especially interested in it, but that could just be because it's a  relatively larger part of his profile since he doesn't have *quite* as much power as those tier 9's. Honestly, if we're including the ability to mix in telekinesis his handling of Obi Wan stands as one of the most impressive mid-combat TK feats.

By that level I wonder if overall saber technical skill reaches diminishing returns anyway, though Dooku doesn't really seem to think so.

One scaling you could try to loosely use is to look at how Mace Windu stalemated Sidious when the two's Force powers were equal, and somehow connect that to Dooku while noting other factors like Mace's style and physical advantage, etc.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

on January 28th 2020, 9:02 am
I can understand that, but wouldnt it also be possible that Gillard could think that Anakin does in fact get more skilled the more of the dark side he uses?

So u think that power can/is/should be considered when taking into account who falls into the tier 9?

IDK what u mean here. Elaborate please?

I also dont know what u mean here. Elaborate please?
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Tier 9 Dooku? Empty Re: Tier 9 Dooku?

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