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The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 4:54 am
@BoD wrote:The parts where he fights Vader as a complete equal and then gains the upper hand are when he's drawing upon the dark side, as specified by the ROTJ novel:


Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady
with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it
was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life.
Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke
didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He
engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his
cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so
overpowering as to totally obliterate all other
considerations.
 He had the power; the choice was his.
 And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an
ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy
them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
 It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did
not swoon. Nor did he recoil.
 He took one step forward.


Both of the quotes are missing this pretty critical context. The only time he doesn't draw upon the dark side is when he fights defensively for about 10 seconds in the film before retreating to higher ground when he refuses to fight.
zonakin style amped intensifies
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on January 21st 2020, 4:54 am
they are different. zonakin is anakin fighting at his fullest, and at his best. what luke gets is a rage boost, amped by the nexus that sheev seems to be
DarthAnt66
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 6:02 am
The only time he doesn't draw upon the dark side is when he fights defensively for about 10 seconds in the film before retreating to higher ground when he refuses to fight.

Yes, and he's beating Vader even then per RAFODV. Moreover, the blanket "equally powerful" statements would still apply to this Luke.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 6:27 am
if he is beating vader, then how are they equals? and he only starts beating vader after vader starts to really get mentally screwed, doenst he? by that point, luke is even more enraged?
Zenwolf
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:01 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:honestly, its really hard to gauge how skilled vader is, to me at least. all of his accolades say he is the best, but his feats are lacking. mostly because comics have him struggling with every fucking jedi he fights. he somehow destroys one of the most skilled the order in one of his first missions ever as darth vader, but has trouble with some low end council member lvl jedi years later, when he is far more skilled

Like?

Also one thing, but why couldn't the Jedi just have been training before having encountered Vader?

In fact, that would actually help Vader, because what good does it, if he just wades through Jedi?

That doesn't show any skill on his part, because he would be using hardly any of his skill to showcase in the first place. If he has to actually show skill, then why is this somehow a bad feat for him and the Jedi in question isn't just that good?

This wouldn't take away from Vader being extremely skilled.

Now yes, there are instances of Vader also just one-shotting Jedi just as well, but it's not always a thing.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:12 am
what do u mean 'like'? 

he wouldve kept training anyhow, as we know he did.

i meant the cases in which he somehow gets tagged by a duelist faaar below his tier. examples being luke, plo koon's niece or something, the two jedi he fought (i believe they were dark jedi) some years later, and what not else.

u know what i meant by it being inconsistent. him 'completely beating, once or twice fodderizing extremely skilled jedi' to 'struggling with plo koon's niece, getting tagged by ESB luke' is somewhat ridiculous, isnt it?
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger

Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:13 am
Pre prime Vader remember?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:15 am
yes, but it is inconsistent regardless, isnt it?
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:22 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:what do u mean 'like'? 

he wouldve kept training anyhow, as we know he did.

i meant the cases in which he somehow gets tagged by a duelist faaar below his tier. examples being luke, plo koon's niece or something, the two jedi he fought (i believe they were dark jedi) some years later, and what not else.

u know what i meant by it being inconsistent. him 'completely beating, once or twice fodderizing extremely skilled jedi' to 'struggling with plo koon's niece, getting tagged by ESB luke' is somewhat ridiculous, isnt it?

Well examples I was meaning.

But as far as Koon's niece, he was already damaged before they even fought and even then that fight didn't last long. She got one strike on him before being killed. Plus this wasn't that long after Vader got put into his suit, it was in 19 BBY, so you could argue he was still adjusting to it.

His fight against Luke in ESB, context, he wasn't even trying to kill him there.

Plus since when does Character A getting hit once or twice by Character B means = Character A is crap?

I'm certain this isn't anything new to fiction works, it's not impossible for less skilled opponents to get a hit or two on an opponent who would be far moreso. Doesn't mean the one who had a boatload to their name would be crap.

I'm sure Batman has been hit by plenty of random thugs in Gotham, yet people still harp on the fact he is a master in multiple martial arts.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 11:09 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:if he is beating vader, then how are they equals? and he only starts beating vader after vader starts to really get mentally screwed, doenst he? by that point, luke is even more enraged?
At base level, Luke and Vader are equals. But "the advantage shifts" to Luke when Luke draws on the dark side. Luke beats Vader in the early stage of the fight with relative ease after a short exchange when the two fought evenly. Then Luke realizes he's drawing on the dark side at the same moment that Vader gets enraged at having been bested, and Luke actively stops drawing on the dark side. At this point, we see a Vader who has been stated to be more powerful than ever, and is stated to be enraged, go all-out against a Luke who is actively not drawing on his anger. Despite this, Luke stonewalls Vader, overpowers him in a blade lock on screen, and in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, apparently lands a kick that snapped a cable in Vader's leg (I haven't read the novel myself, but DarthAnt66 posted the quote). So even acting as a lightsider and actively not fighting back, Luke expressed clear parity, if not marginal superiority, to an enraged Darth Vader. 

I don't know where you keep getting the idea that Vader was "mentally screwed." Can you post a quote or a source? It's something you've brought up repeatedly, but outside of Luke's own statements of, "I feel the conflict within you," I've not seen anything that indicates Vader was seriously hampered during the fight. 

If either character was mentally screwed, it was Luke himself. Vader knew exactly what he wanted from the encounter. Defeat Luke (but not kill him), force Luke into submission, then together, they would turn on the Emperor after Luke had fully embraced the dark side. Nothing Luke had said or done up until that point had changed Vader's viewpoint. "He will join us, or die." "If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny." Yes, Luke being around dug up old feelings and memories, but the Vader persona was actively suppressing them and focusing on his evil machinations right up until Luke defeated him and chose to toss his weapon aside. This is fully laid out in many sources, and can pretty much be inferred just from watching the movies themselves. 

Luke, on the other hand? He wanted to save his father, but everyone told him it was impossible. His mentors told him to kill Vader, but he didn't want to fight. Sidious praised him for being aggressive, which further encouraged Luke to hold back, lest he become a tool for the dark side. Luke's emotions were all over the place, bouncing around from self restraint to outright hatred and back. Sure, when he gave in to his emotions, it gave him an edge over Vader, but just look at the way Luke fights during the final part of the duel. It's totally unbalanced, swinging madly with almost no control while growling like an animal. You said Vader was the one who was mentally screwed, but it should be obvious to anyone with eyes that Luke wasn't in the best mental state during the duel either. At least Vader stayed composed and acted like his typical self right up until the very end. Luke was practically frothing at the mouth. That should be enough to tell you which of the two was more "mentally screwed." 


Also, yet again, I see people like @"AlakenSpacewalker" making the false claim that Luke was trained to be a "weapon to fight Vader and only Vader." This is just outright false. Between ANH and ESB, Luke did almost all of his training on his own for three years, with virtually no stated training from the spirit of Obi-Wan, outside of occassional nuggets of wisdom or guidance. During that time, Luke developed his skillset to the point where he was able to repeatedly best Baron Tagge, who has been repeatedly stated to be a master of lightsaber combat. Luke's fought the likes of Kharys, a skilled Form VII user who had been training for almost as long as Luke had been alive, and he had a brief duel with Celeste Morne. This all happened before his training under Yoda, mind you. Post-ESB, sure, Luke knew he'd ultimately have to confront Vader again, but he was also employing his skills as a Jedi primarily for the sake of aiding the Rebel Alliance, with only a little time set aside here and there for advancing his training (like we see in the old Marvel comics and Shadows of the Empire). Luke has clearly fought a wide variety of different opponents, so claiming Luke is a "weapon to fight Vader and only Vader" is just laughable. 

Not to mention, we know for a fact that Yoda didn't train Luke to fight Vader and only Vader in ESB! 

"Stopped, they must be. On this, all depends. Only a fully trained Jedi knight, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his emperor." 

First, Yoda basically outright states that he is training Luke to confront both Vader and the Emperor. If Luke was geared solely to take down Vader, and was far less capable against other opponents, Yoda's plan to have Luke stop the Sith just straight up wouldn't work. Second, Yoda didn't know how Vader fought, so Yoda literally couldn't train Luke to fight in a way that would specifically counter Vader's fighting style. We see exactly how Yoda trained Luke in Treasure of the Dragonsnake, and it didn't have anything to do with stopping Vader specifically. Yoda was teaching Luke how to read his opponents and recognize any weaknesses to capitalize on. Yes, this worked out well against Vader (due to Vader expressing many weaknesses thanks to his cybernetic limitations), but it's a flexible tactic that it should work against literally every opponent. 



TL;DR: Base RotJ Luke~Base RotJ Vader, as stated in many, many, many sources. Luke was arguably more mentally screwed than Vader, but everyone overlooks this because the rage gave Luke a big boost in power (despite it also probably seriously hampering his swordsmanship and control of the Force, judging by his behavior in the movie). Luke was not a "weapon to fight Vader and only Vader," but was instead a well-rounded duelist who had faced a variety of foes. Luke had been trained by Yoda to recognize the flaws inherent in his opponents, with the goal of ultimately defeating not just Vader, but the Emperor as well.
MasterCilghal
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 3:35 pm
@Syndiciate wrote:I find power quotes to be rather vague personally. Are they referring to raw power that comes about as a result of one's potential and midichlorian count that contributes to a being's reserves of energy or their actual employable power? How many authors even make this distinction in the first place? 

Out of the ten quotes addressing Luke vs Vader the vast majority mentions the ROTJ duel. Those are pretty clearly referring to the fact that Luke and Vader are a match for one another, at the very least in lightsaber combat and I don’t think Luke’s parity with Vader is only in that regard since the two are a match on an universal level and Luke’s raw power, well, far outstrips Vader’s . Furthermore, Vader thinking his son might best him and fact file 5 noting “As father and son faced each other in a lightsaber duel, it was clear that the younger man had now developed powers that equaled his father’s” confirms It’s developed power, not raw power that we’re talking  about here. For instance AOTC Anakin has a raw power comparable to that of Yoda but when he faced Dooku nowhere is it stated he defeated him, rather all evidence points to Dooku having taken the duo easily barring the “flashes of brilliance” state Anakin achieved for a brief time. By contrast, Vader being Luke’s equal as an overall combatant is noted several times as being a permanent thing, so to speak. 

@Syndiciate wrote:I don't seen any reason to doubt Luke's opinion on what Vader is capable of here. As for the Vader vs Teneniel Djo comparison, one can simply note that Luke being aware that Vader is capable of tooling him does not give him full knowledge of his father's actual capabilities.

So you’re telling me that we should disregard a lot of OUU quotes making it clear Luke rivals his father in all areas because of a single statement from a biased source? Doesn’t make sense to me. It is also important to point out that there are other instances of Luke being clearly wrong in his evaluation of other character’s abilities, namely Kenobi, with Luke being sure he could take Vader with literally a single gesture, and similarly with Sheev. So yes, I see a lot of reasons to to doubt Luke’s opinion, as his judgment has already been wrong in the past. add that to the Teneniel comparison, and it all becomes more... suspect insight. 


Last edited by MasterCilghal on January 21st 2020, 7:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Syndiciate
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 6:47 pm
Why did you increase the font size of my words? @MasterCilghal
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 6:56 pm
@Syndiciate it was probably because I’m on mobile, as I usually do and the formatting isn’t the best. I can assure you it was not intentional.
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:18 pm
@Syndiciate wrote:
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Luke one-shots.

Based on what?
Luke beat a version of Sidious who is superior to his RotJ iteration, who stomps RotJ Luke. RotJ Luke is > Vader in both force and lightsaber skill. 

Starkiller doesn't fair any better then Vader does.
AlakanSpacewalker
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:37 pm
@EmperorCaedus wrote:
@Syndiciate wrote:
@EmperorCaedus wrote:Luke one-shots.

Based on what?
Luke beat a version of Sidious who is superior to his RotJ iteration, who stomps RotJ Luke. RotJ Luke is > Vader in both force and lightsaber skill. 

Starkiller doesn't fair any better then Vader does.

How is RotJ Luke superior to Vader as a Force user? If you’re referring to Dark Empire then remember Luke only won because Leia was amping him and weakening Palpatine with battle meditation
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:44 pm
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:How is RotJ Luke superior to Vader as a Force user?

The Ultimate Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Before he can make peace with his father, Luke must prove that he is a ,match for him in strength and character. In a final epic lightsaber duel, Vader realizes that his son's powers have become greater than his own and falls, beaten.

@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:If you're referring to Dark Empire then remember Luke only won because Leia was amping him and weakening Palpatine with battle meditation. 

Leia's BM has little to no effect on Luke. Leia's BM was described as "elementary" and Luke didn't even know he was being amped in the slightest, further proving it had no effect on him at all.
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:45 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
The only time he doesn't draw upon the dark side is when he fights defensively for about 10 seconds in the film before retreating to higher ground when he refuses to fight.

Yes, and he's beating Vader even then per RAFODV. Moreover, the blanket "equally powerful" statements would still apply to this Luke.
The RAFODV also has Vader growing desperate and leaving himself open to a kick in that same scene, suggesting he actually hindered himself.

And of course they wouldn't. Baseline Luke =/= rage amped Luke, nor is rage amped Luke =/= "you son of a bitch I'm going to kill you" Luke.
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:46 pm
@EmperorCaedus wrote:
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:How is RotJ Luke superior to Vader as a Force user?

The Ultimate Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Before he can make peace with his father, Luke must prove that he is a ,match for him in strength and character. In a final epic lightsaber duel, Vader realizes that his son's powers have become greater than his own and falls, beaten.

@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:If you're referring to Dark Empire then remember Luke only won because Leia was amping him and weakening Palpatine with battle meditation. 

Leia's BM has little to no effect on Luke. Leia's BM was described as "elementary" and Luke didn't even know he was being amped in the slightest, further proving it had no effect on him at all.
That quote is literally under the context of when Luke is heavily amped and overpowers Vader and cuts off his hand. It doesn't apply to ROTJ Luke in general.
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 7:56 pm
@Bod how does that change my point?
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 8:14 pm
Because Luke was going through a Zonakin style amp, which boosted him immensely past his normal levels of power. You're using it in response to how ROTJ Luke (as in base ROTJ Luke) > Vader as a Force user.
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 8:29 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:um lucas, luke, sheev, and obi wan in a deleted scene have said that vader is above luke lol
Post this deleted scene please
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 8:50 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMcQQ-pI-Cg&t=373s 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8I5umBDokI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWbNa8S_oT8&t=314s

its on one of these vids. i can look for it later, but if u feel like it, im pretty sure i saw it on one of these vids. they are kinda like, from the early 80s though, so idk if anything said here still applies
AlakanSpacewalker
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 9:16 pm
@EmperorCaedus wrote:
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:How is RotJ Luke superior to Vader as a Force user?

The Ultimate Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Before he can make peace with his father, Luke must prove that he is a ,match for him in strength and character. In a final epic lightsaber duel, Vader realizes that his son's powers have become greater than his own and falls, beaten.

@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:If you're referring to Dark Empire then remember Luke only won because Leia was amping him and weakening Palpatine with battle meditation. 

Leia's BM has little to no effect on Luke. Leia's BM was described as "elementary" and Luke didn't even know he was being amped in the slightest, further proving it had no effect on him at all.
Ok 



But it did weaken Palpatine to the point where they both beat him and I think it was once stated that without her Luke wouldn’t have won that fight,
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 9:27 pm
I feel so stupid because my reply to @DarthAnt66 was deleted and I’m not rewriting it.
AlakanSpacewalker
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

on January 21st 2020, 9:38 pm
@DarthAnt66: when I said Vader got Luke’s saber away from him I was referring to this https://youtu.be/rOgpvr-cbpQ
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Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker                                                             - Page 3 Empty Re: Starkiller Clone and Darth Vader vs DE Luke Skywalker

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