Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:49 am
Per the mutual agreement of both debaters, this SS has been declared a draw.


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 9k=
SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQBqBm6nEUQvcOhjnLOoSplbkHX3SLA0vdJv353ectgOzo2NpC&s

Darth Maul as of Star Wars Rebels, Season 3, Episode 20, "Twin Suns", Darth Vader as of Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order

There will be three posts and one conclusion per side, with character limits of 10000, 13750, 17500, and 6500 characters respectively. There will be 1 month to write each post, with 2 weeks to write a conclusion. 


This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidlines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:


  • Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.



  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.



  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.



EDIT: BoD and I have both agreed to discount any mental hindrances for the actual fight between Maul and Vader that will take place (IE if we say that Maul is mentally hindered in Rebels, so he will be hindered against Vader, etc).


Last edited by IG on Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:55 am
oh boy. shit just got real.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:36 am
loled at this thread
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:24 am
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:01 am
You know why
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:57 am
Interresting fight
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:43 pm
I’m going to try to not make this one of my normal posts in which I drone on for around (20 pages usually), so alright then, let’s get started.


I - Ahsoka Tano


To establish why Maul is going to be capable of defeating Vader, given the latter’s rather absurd feats by canon standards, we need to examine Ahsoka. 


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) EDWc-du3owkLeb5l1CdrpNcGpwU9rt2sFmnjuMv5Clf64l6eBf0VKIalUxShglU4JBdRHfdAyfEiALyD3tSTxuEMgmi1SzNq7iNYUHP6Q1OIKGoXsnXJv9SpMSbzge7VSpNyRHkC


I’m sure that you’ve watched this episode of Rebels at least once, BoD, but let’s just take a look at what happens here. Ahsoka charges Vader, lands a kick, dodges his strikes, engages in bladelock with him, breaks it, dodges again, then TK blasts him back. This by all means is a close fight. There’s no avoiding that. Vader’s been on the defensive the entire time thus far, and Ahsoka demonstrates her capabilities as an offensive fighter.


 SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) QAGupSNBJx5RY_r2xrH8e2lWOBbVOxeNjxkD8Br8m8q1kGgWvkPIyFBmGJ_j9rEaPe2rc0-q00O_HMSkdnBhTJQtuYWT4XFMxE00tI3yiJbdoCwuYOwMzr9WN4Tg5ObSJLwrOtvl


Almost immediately after this, Ahsoka gets pressed by his blade, breaks the bladelock, dodges literally all of his blows and deflects his strikes, then dances around Vader. 


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Xhr0ecdhtvclvn4eqqWkcJUvakMPJmgt7HvyKdFwRRmGidAvePzD8loqj2_Ehau0txh1LxoTDBFjNwZPw1-QYtoKmsC8f2grt7u_sXu_Mp6p3-FZDrtvJfyWYGIr8MIUgwPh_v6l


Later in the fight, we see Ahsoka holding her own in the fight in likely the most direct way possible. The pair’s blades clash numerous times, and Ahsoka gives hardly any ground. While Vader is superior both holistically and demonstrably, Ahsoka clearly competes, and I’d argue that she’s fairly close to him, given the numerous times in the fight that Vader doesn’t display outright superiority. This isn’t shown as a one-sided duel at all, but often a stalemate.  Furthermore, it’s a duel between master and apprentice. Last time we saw one of these, it was Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, in which the master came out ahead despite the apprentice having superior power with the force. Vader knows Ahsoka’s style, he trained her, he practically lived with her, but Ahsoka doesn’t know much about Vader’s as Vader has to completely reinvent his style after he’s put in a suit. 




II - Maul’s Superiority 


Now, this is important because of Maul’s outright superiority to Ahsoka. 
SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 8TygiU_PT-TfQQJy3drYFdRFhbzWuFVLa3961O2P7ZwTe20D8AEB2n5a9hVfEj4IJ1vTfeKt-3IQPKFX9rMPxmdTtMEJrF9qh0wS7DoFfD7Av-SAFSaPIPPd34tg7uoy-TAZa8pP


Given that the “logical choice” is pairing Maul with “the weakest of the Jedi”, it then follows that Maul is the strongest of the group. Furthermore, the gap between Ahsoka and Maul is noticeable enough that Kanan (and Ahsoka) are willing to trust Maul with Ezra (Ahsoka and Kanan clearly care for him and likely won’t place him in danger unless absolutely necessary). 


This is reflected in Maul and Ahsoka’s respective performances with the Inquisitorius. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04V0nS8AP2g (Exhibit A)


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 0U_gbHtASBP1av1ndGpIOWNceOCAf5n8wltpvY2NVTmRo-GavlyEPpoIB9kxe4rAtMRZx8Efan3ZBQzj1N_u77GAPaKcoDC-tRBTzrSBzAOXXbvC19snLu3ffiTbE2SuKnmscRE7 (Exhibit B)


In both cases, we have Ahsoka’s superiority to the Inquisitors being evident (less so for the second clip, but I’m letting that slide). In the first clip, she drives them back with some effort, and in the second she (along with Kanan) drive back another pair of Inquisitors. To contrast, Maul casually annihilates them:




SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 8bAr7KE5TOCzqsbIUCNHloGBAkIyB0LGbGQgRcs4D-KOq6HGg-E61jusrEU1ybpZhgR1bBJ1yYoimMoXDwXvcyOJ2ZX6Bv1F6LfY91vwgKqH2Nr0wCFGhPLb3RDX2qRQYM4eehgb SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) XlChmZCvs-E_h_uNy0l9azWl4muJYN_FU1tLpJe_1YnkiXfayFFTatAKPQ6JJqxQRY3NBk7Rs3wiehwXspfAnpA7zQvwroeyxJQn0cskXMUOZ8luyXXzOsdfyurqx4Av9QaYNpEt
SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 1NbCd68W0WIOvTAtrmqj44kdX4IYe-757D-wm4lvorbagpX99bRq2FAqzLgt-DLIM8zuaPI-YE6ha-Bi7PWOr6EEGr4gCnWEHKl6vKNswwINLDqDymJjpZnFxsGdePOS3Y19a1OF


Which is supported by the claim that Maul “does so easily” in reference to defeating the Inquisitors. Ahsoka handles the Inquisitors the way Maul handles Qui-Gon in TPM--by taking them out in an extended fight. Maul handles the Inquisitors the way Sidious handles the B-Team in ROTS. From the multiple pieces of evidence that support the claim, we can establish that Maul is indeed a superior to Ahsoka as of Rebels, by a noticeable margin nonetheless. 


Maul also holds a stylistic edge over Vader, as his mobility is not nearly as limited as Vader’s is, and he’s capable of moving around a lot more, similar to Ahsoka. The difference here being that Ahsoka is much weaker than Maul, so it stands to reason that Maul would be able to put up a far better fight (perhaps either win or actually stalemate) a vastly superior iteration of Vader. 


III - Vader’s Growth


While it’s evident why Vader’s growth matters in relation to Ahsoka’s, and therefore Maul’s relativity with Vader, I figured it wouldn’t hurt to go over the extent of Vader’s growth. It’s common knowledge that Vader’s prime is Rebels-ANH, so I don’t think I need to cite that, and Vader’s growth is shown noticeably throughout his multiple appearances.  In Lords of the Sith, Vader believes that his at the time has surpassed that of when he wasn’t in the suit, and his potential is still enough that Sidious is noted to be wary of it. Given that there are around 12 years or so between Fallen Order and S2 of Rebels, we can assume that Vader grows immensely, and his skills as a combatant are far greater as well. 



Lords of the Sith wrote:VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.
He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.


Insider 157 wrote:Somewhere in the back of Palpatine's mind, he knows what Vader's potential is. He feels he may be wrong, but he is wary of it. So he's very interested in determining his ability to manipulate Vader and testing his loyalty and assuring himself that this tiger that he holds by the tail is going to stay that way.

Conclusion
There’s a wealth of evidence that favors Maul in this matchup from the very beginning. To go over the points I’ve made throughout this post:



  • Ahsoka is capable of contending with Vader in a direct way, establishing relativity, if not parity.
  • Maul is far more powerful than Ahsoka at this time, demonstrated by their respective performances against the Inquisitors. 
  • Vader in Fallen Order is far weaker than Vader in Rebels, and the relativity of Maul’s inferior in Ahsoka establishes Maul’s direct superiority to JFO Vader. 
  • Maul has a stylistic advantage in his mobility, which vastly exceeds that of Vader. 


@”BoD (Away)” Your move. 
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:02 pm
Interesting battle, T4V.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:39 pm
@IG (Exists) Great post.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:40 pm
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:59 pm
interesting post
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:36 am
@The lord of hunger I don't know why, actually.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:02 am
IG (Exists) wrote:@The lord of hunger I don't know why, actually.
oh... well .... not to worry 
pd: good post
avatar
BoD (Away)
Level Six
Level Six

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:52 am
Very nice post. I should have my own up in the next couple of days.
avatar
BoD (Away)
Level Six
Level Six

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:54 pm
The purpose of this first post is going to be two-fold: I will begin by examining the comparisons made between Ahsoka and Maul, before moving on to establish Vader’s sheer superiority to Maul in virtually every regard.


Maul vs Ahsoka: Comparisons


To begin, you yourself have relied heavily on scaling between Ahsoka and Maul, and how it puts him firmly above JFO Vader. I completely disagree. First, let’s examine their fights with the inquisitors:


You point to Maul and his first fight with the Inquisitors, where even while pretending to be weaker than he really is, he still clearly outmatches them. This is true. However, the Inquisitors, even the greatest of the Inquisitors - the Grand Inquisitor - has never fought someone of Maul’s level. He's not even more powerful than season 1 Kanan once he starts believing in himself:




''But to the great many that he would've encountered one might have pick up a lightsaber, or been like youngling or padawan that survived he would be more than a match for any of them. Remember the Jedi council if they would survived the Inquisitor be lot harder pressed in that battle.

I would say someone like Mace Windu is far far far above the Inquisitor we've seen in Star Wars Rebels. But in this dark time when the light side is really suffering he is a fairly powerful guy. Especially for someone like Kanan, who kind of lack his own conviction and belief in his own ability at this point. If you do that, if you don't believe in yourself how can you fight with someone like the Inquisitor? He gets Force thrown he really gets thrown in that throw has much to do with Kanan's own lack of believe in himself as does the Inquisitor is pushing him. There is not a lot countering the Inquisitor in that fight. We thought it was important to show Kanan really struggling.''




I doubt I need to explain why the GI > the other Inquisitors. However, the Inquisitors at this point were never trained to fight beings of Maul or Ahsoka’s level, both of whom are far above them. It’s also worth noting that the Inquisitors were never trained to fight Sith, so Maul’s fighting technique and mindset would be almost completely foreign to them. 


What’s interesting about the Inquisitors, however, is how they benefit from experience when facing beings a second time. Let’s consider their fight with Ahsoka in season 2, episode 9, where she absolutely tools them despite not having fought lightsaber wielders in about 19 years:

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) SelfishDisloyalDavidstiger-size_restricted



SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 6nRI

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Tumblr_oicazsggd71rvq5fwo3_r1_250

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) ZFh6-k





As Filoni puts it, Ahsoka is in absolutely no danger the entire fight:


I could have had that fight be all 22 minutes because I was so excited about it. She’s never really in jeopardy, Ashoka, in that fight.”

  • Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels




However, then we compare her fight with them in the finale:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 5487391-fifth%20vs%20kanan%20and%20ahsoka



SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 5487394-ahsoka%20vs%20fifth%205




The Inquisitors clearly know what to expect this time, yet they’re still being overpowered by her. This is despite the Inquisitors having the advantage of similar training to her, having been Jedi before their fall and recruitment into the program:

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Rco00211


Maul, by contrast was a complete unknown. They didn’t even know if he existed: 


“The Shadow?”

  • Eighth Brother, Twilight of the Apprentice: Part One.



-

“So, the rumours are true. Darth Maul lives.
      -    Seventh Sister, ibid. 




While it’s true Maul was holding back, he had knowledge of the Inquisitors whereas they had no knowledge of him. 


Now, as for him killing them easily, that source is clearly lacking context:


https://youtu.be/ndp9wbmZtZM?t=141



Maul, with the element of surprise, jumps down and damages the Eighth Brother’s saber with a downward strike. Maul then shortly after takes advantage of Ahsoka destroying the Fifth Brother’s lightsaber in the confusion, killing him. 


At no point here does it suggest Maul > Ahsoka, only that his sudden joining the fight and throwing the two into disarray allowed the three to kill them easily. 


Ahsoka even shows comparable dominance over the Inquisitors to Maul in the Force. Maul can choke out the Seventh Sister?


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Sevent10


Ahsoka overrode her blade with a mix of TK and augmentation then ragdolled her into a pillar hard enough to crack it:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) GGHfhr



SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 5491107-gets%20force%20pushed





While Maul is superior, he is not superior by any noticeable or considerable margin. 



Vader’s superiority 


Even pre-JFO Vader has Maul utterly outmatched in the Force. Maul’s best TK feat to date in canon is pulling a shuttle off a cliff while enraged:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 5256554-3766569-maul%2Bbringing%2Bdown%2Bship




While hugely impressive, Vader has feats like overpowering the combined TK of two Inquisitors and throwing a speeder back at them:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Rco01010





Containing grenade explosions while simultaneously snapping the necks of two Clone troopers:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 59153111
SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) 59153110





Completely freezing two enraged Inquisitors with the Force: 


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Rco01210


Ragdolling Cere, who later only managed to temporarily overpower him when fully embracing the dark side, with the effort required to so causing her to pass out:

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Tenor



Ragdolling Cal, choking him while simultaneously stopping a huge piece of debris he throws at him:


https://youtu.be/flCeshpEwO4?t=1532





Bending doors, throwing debris and casually chucking around huge generators:


https://youtu.be/flCeshpEwO4?t=1539


And, in an incredibly impressive showing, holding back the oceans of Nur, a water moon:


https://youtu.be/flCeshpEwO4?t=1742





All of these feats when taken together portray JO Vader as far above Maul or Ahsoka’s respective power levels.



Then, let’s look at Vader’s lightsaber skill. Even before JFO, he’s able to go toe to toe with Jedi masters like Eeth Koth, who could go toe to toe with Grievous:

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Rco00812
SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Rco01012

https://youtu.be/Bx2bP5xv2jo?t=108


For comparison, the same Grievous was matching Maul in his absolute prime in SoD:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Rco02014

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Rco02111


He also effortlessly stomps Cere:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) C27a99bad8656dd1f5a198ce5a7222056901b3fc



Now, let’s look again at the Ahsoka vs Vader fight. You point out how Vader would have an advantage over Ahsoka because he’d have knowledge of her style while he’d reinvented his own. This isn’t exactly true:


“Ahsoka has a fighting style that’s similar to where we left her in terms of having the two blades but she’s definitely more in control, she’s less impulsive. It may be less flashy, but its more effective.”

  • Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels


-

“She’s extremely skilled, and I think over the years she’s probably had the opportunity to hone her abilities.”

  • Ibid.




Ahsoka’s form has changed and matured as she’s gotten older. While at its core there are elements that are the same, the same can be said for Vader, who still has hints of his old fighting style. Ahsoka also had the advantage of Anakin’s training to fight larger opponents:



"It's ironic. Anakin taught her to fight much larger opponents than her. Someone exactly like Darth Vader.

  • Dave Filoni.




Ahsoka’s competing with Vader is even noted to be in part due to her acrobatic abilities and fighting style, one that Maul does not have:


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Screen68



Even with these advantages (that Maul doesn’t have), Vader was still able to pull ahead of Ahsoka and outmatch her in a duel of strength, speed, skill and power, and broke through her defences twice after she tagged him with a push and he stopped underestimating her or fought more viciously: 



Conclusion



  • Maul’s edge over Ahsoka is largely minimal, with very little to back it up except a few statements and contextual showings against Inquisitors who’ve never faced a Sith before (save for Vader, who stomped them all at the same time). 



  • Vader is more powerful than Maul and has greater feats.
  • Pre-JFO Vader could go toe to toe with the likes of Eeth Koth and fight him evenly.
  • Despite Ahsoka having advantages like acrobatics and training to fight bigger opponents than her, Vader was still able to outmatch her in a duel. 
  • Maul lacks these advantages, and would not perform nearly as well against Rebels Vader as a result, especially since he's past his prime.
  • Rebels Vader may be Vader's prime, but JFO is close enough by feats to beat Maul.


Last edited by BoD (Away) on Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:32 pm; edited 5 times in total
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:01 pm
oooof great points to take into consideration really great post
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:12 pm
Good post
avatar
BoD (Away)
Level Six
Level Six

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:26 pm
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:23 pm
Your welcome ;)
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:08 pm
Maul’s Superiority: Expanded



BoD wrote:To begin, you yourself have relied heavily on scaling between Ahsoka and Maul, and how it puts him firmly above JFO Vader. I completely disagree. First, let’s examine their fights with the inquisitors:



You point to Maul and his first fight with the Inquisitors, where even while pretending to be weaker than he really is, he still clearly outmatches them. This is true. However, the Inquisitors, even the greatest of the Inquisitors - the Grand Inquisitor - has never fought someone of Maul’s level. He's not even more powerful than season 1 Kanan once he starts believing in himself:


I doubt I need to explain why the GI > the other Inquisitors. However, the Inquisitors at this point were never trained to fight beings of Maul or Ahsoka’s level, both of whom are far above them. It’s also worth noting that the Inquisitors were never trained to fight Sith, so Maul’s fighting technique and mindset would be almost completely foreign to them. 



What’s interesting about the Inquisitors, however, is how they benefit from experience when facing beings a second time. Let’s consider their fight with Ahsoka in season 2, episode 9, where she absolutely tools them despite not having fought lightsaber wielders in about 19 years:



Well, Ahsoka had “honed her skills”, as you’ve already sourced. She’s prepared for this, her skills with a saber are far greater than they once were. According to Insider 159, “Ahsoka Tano's development provided a focal point to the epic story of a galaxy at war. And now she's back, stronger than ever in Star Wars Rebels”. Meaning that both her skills with a saber increased, as well as her abilities with the force increased, given both quotes. So the idea that Ahsoka being out of practice in terms of fighting saber wielders should be mitigated by the fact that she’s improved a lot with the force and with a saber. 



BoD wrote:As Filoni puts it, Ahsoka is in absolutely no danger the entire fight:



I could have had that fight be all 22 minutes because I was so excited about it. She’s never really in jeopardy, Ashoka, in that fight.”


  • Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels


However, then we compare her fight with them in the finale:


The Inquisitors clearly know what to expect this time, yet they’re still being overpowered by her. This is despite the Inquisitors having the advantage of similar training to her, having been Jedi before their fall and recruitment into the program:
Maul, by contrast was a complete unknown. They didn’t even know if he existed: 




“The Shadow?”

Eighth Brother, Twilight of the Apprentice: Part One


“So, the rumours are true. Darth Maul lives.”
      -    Seventh Sister, ibid. 


While it’s true Maul was holding back, he had knowledge of the Inquisitors whereas they had no knowledge of him. 



Now, as for him killing them easily, that source is clearly lacking context.



Well, not being in danger and having control of the fight doesn’t mean that it was a stomp. She handles them with general ease, but she’s pressed to a degree throughout. Furthermore, the Inquisitors not having knowledge of Maul is true, but Maul has no knowledge of them either. He clearly knows they exist, but as to having knowledge of how they fight? That’s a solid no. 


If we contrast their performances against the two respective foes (Ahsoka and Maul) when having no knowledge of how either fight, Maul’s performance is infinitely better. Where Ahsoka resorts to a fight that’s at least somewhat long, Maul makes short work of the Inquisitors, while holding back, appearing to look feeble, and toying. 



BoD wrote:While Maul is superior, he is not superior by any noticeable or considerable margin. 



Which is directly contradicted by the fact that it’s the “logical choice” to send the weakest of the Jedi (Ezra) with Maul (therefore the strongest) when Maul is still holding back, appearing to look weak, etc. Meaning that holding back Maul is still superior to Ahsoka, and normal Maul is obviously superior to holding back Maul by a noticeable margin, therefore establishing superiority to Ahsoka by a noticeable margin. 



BoD wrote:Then, let’s look at Vader’s lightsaber skill. Even before JFO, he’s able to go toe to toe with Jedi masters like Eeth Koth, who could go toe to toe with Grievous:


For comparison, the same Grievous was matching Maul in his absolute prime in SoD:



The idea that Maul’s prime is SoD is directly contradicted by the lore. It’s heavily implied that during the Siege of Mandalore, Ahsoka contends with Maul. Ahsoka after vast improvement however, is inferior (by a decent margin nonetheless) to Rebels Maul. Grievous furthermore improves across the Clone Wars, so contention with an earlier (and therefore inferior) iteration of Grievous is not as impressive as with a late-CW iteration of him.



BoD wrote:Now, let’s look again at the Ahsoka vs Vader fight. You point out how Vader would have an advantage over Ahsoka because he’d have knowledge of her style while he’d reinvented his own. This isn’t exactly true:



“Ahsoka has a fighting style that’s similar to where we left her in terms of having the two blades but she’s definitely more in control, she’s less impulsive. It may be less flashy, but its more effective.”


  • Rebels Recon #2.09: Inside "The Future of the Force" | Star Wars Rebels-




“She’s extremely skilled, and I think over the years she’s probably had the opportunity to hone her abilities.”

  • Ibid.

Ahsoka’s form has changed and matured as she’s gotten older. While at its core there are elements that are the same, the same can be said for Vader, who still has hints of his old fighting style. Ahsoka also had the advantage of Anakin’s training to fight larger opponents:




"It's ironic. Anakin taught her to fight much larger opponents than her. Someone exactly like Darth Vader.


  • Dave Filoni.







Ahsoka’s competing with Vader is even noted to be in part due to her acrobatic abilities and fighting style, one that Maul does not have:



Ahsoka doesn’t entirely reinvent her style though. She becomes more skilled, is less flashy, but there’s no doubt that her style is extremely similar. Vader is still intimately familiar with Ahsoka’s mindset, her style of fighting, the way she wields a saber, etc. Maul in fact, is capable of using an acrobatic style of combat in a fight. He’s described as a “deadly, agile Sith Lord” by the databank, he’s consistently displayed an ability to fight with an acrobatic style, his fights in TCW and TPM show this evidently. 


SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) NTJlDLakkwShNmoJedloqVoV8iQNhluiA8ETOydHYQRdYCd8dP0YMGQ4YIxvqUqaTmx3lvcdIVRFXazaTzFFeLA-UqcBpztKIRF2o7Vv5MuQk684heWr6Vu_C0fDR41eNOhM3ris


Maul has consistently been portrayed as a superior to Ahsoka, especially given his holding back self’s superiority to her. You’ve consistently implied throughout your rebuttals in your post that Ahsoka’s performance against the Inquisitors is comparable to Maul’s. Even if this is true, it still  shows Maul’s outright superiority, as he was still holding back against the Inquisitors. Therefore, no matter how you spin it here, Maul holds a noticeable edge against Ahsoka. 



BoD wrote:Even with these advantages (that Maul doesn’t have), Vader was still able to pull ahead of Ahsoka and outmatch her in a duel of strength, speed, skill and power, and broke through her defences twice after she tagged him with a push and he stopped underestimating her or fought more viciously: 



Except numerous times, Vader gets stalemated by Ahsoka in the duel. Vader pushes her off after she left an opening. Ahsoka’s “advantages”, as you put it, aren’t really relevant here as Maul has a tendency to perform acrobatic moves in the midst of combat, he’s described as “agile”, and he’s shown a noticeable gap between himself and Ahsoka, thus mitigating most of (if not all of) the gap between Ahsoka and Vader. We’ve seen what happened in Anakin vs. Obi-Wan, as they both were intimately familiar with each others’ styles (for reference, Ahsoka has far less knowledge of Vader’s style than he does of hers), yet Obi-Wan comes out on top because he’s the master. This is similar, in that Vader being Ahsoka’s master has a noticeable effect upon the battle. Ahsoka is described as “heartbroken” when fighting Vader, indicating a (however minor) hindrance in the fight. 


Furthermore, Vader’s growth (both as a saber-wielder and a force user) is massive from Fallen Order to Rebels.  


In Lords of the Sith, with only a fraction of his power, Sidious performs at least equal (if not superiorly) to Vader. 

Lords of the Sith wrote:Vader looked from his Master to the dark mouth of the mine inside of which Drua and the rest of the villagers had fled. He felt the Emperor's eyes on him, the intensity of the gaze, the weight of his expectations, and Vader knew that the day's events had been only half about depleting a rebel movement before it could grow. They had also, as Vader had suspected, been about testing him, forcing him to face the ghosts of his past and exorcise them forever and fully. He saw that more clearly now; saw, too, that his Master was right to administer the test. It also explained why his Master had shown so little of his true power throughout the day. Perhaps he'd wanted Vader to rely on himself to overcome the challenges they'd faced. Or perhaps he'd wanted to seem weaker than he was, to draw out any treacherous ambitions Vader may have held.

Yet by Rebels (keep in mind that Sidious grows as well), Vader is noted to be superior to Sidious. Thus meaning that even if Maul would just give him a (decent) fight in Rebels, that’s enough to show a level of superiority to Vader before he experienced such massive growth. We know from the evidence I’ve given here that Maul obviously gives more than a decent fight to Rebels Vader (not implying superiority, but it’s close), so he should be comfortably above Fallen Order Vader.


Conclusion


Basically:


  • Rebels is Maul’s prime in canon, and he’s shown an ability (via scaling) to at least be comparable to Prime Vader, if not equal.
  • Said Vader is far, far more powerful than his Fallen Order iteration, therefore meaning that Maul is superior to Fallen Order Vader.
  • Maul has a stylistic advantage against Vader in his agility and acrobatics.


@BoD: When should I expect a reply?


@Latham2000 @DarthAdi @The lord of hunger @xolthol
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:21 pm
SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Tenor
CSWDB
CSWDB

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:39 am
[removed]
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:44 am
@CSWDB This is a debate between myself and BoD, please keep your opinions and quotes to yourself.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:44 am
my guy, u cant reply on shit like this. @darthant66 @azronger can one of u two delete it please?
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator
Moderator

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

on Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:15 am
Welcome to the forum @CSWDB. This thread is designed specifically for debate between two opponents and two opponents only, also known as a "Suspect Showdown". Unfortunately, the user who created this thread forgot to include the "SS" abbreviation in the title to mark it as such so I apologize for any confusion and will have that fixed. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.
Sponsored content

SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn) Empty Re: SS - Darth Maul (IG) vs. Darth Vader (BreakofDawn)

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum