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DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 12th 2019, 5:37 pm
Kilius wrote:There are plenty of secondary sources that state Dooku fought Yoda to a stalemate or to a draw. Why don't the majority of us accept that Dooku is Yoda's equal despite this? Oh yeah because it's a self-evident fact that in the primary sources that the best Dooku can do is hold his own for a short period of time before resorting to disparate cheap tricks to escape. Just like it's self-evident in the film Sidious did not outright overpower Yoda in the final lightning exchange. Yoda only lost because he did not achieve his victory condition - kill Sidious, whilst Sidious's only victory condition was to survive. Not sure why generalized summaries which are often subject to simplification always take a front seat in these debates tbh.

Because the primary sources don’t rigidly constrain us to your interpretation and can easily be framed within the context of secondary information.
O-Siri
O-Siri

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May 12th 2019, 7:30 pm
DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
Kilius wrote:There are plenty of secondary sources that state Dooku fought Yoda to a stalemate or to a draw. Why don't the majority of us accept that Dooku is Yoda's equal despite this? Oh yeah because it's a self-evident fact that in the primary sources that the best Dooku can do is hold his own for a short period of time before resorting to disparate cheap tricks to escape. Just like it's self-evident in the film Sidious did not outright overpower Yoda in the final lightning exchange. Yoda only lost because he did not achieve his victory condition - kill Sidious, whilst Sidious's only victory condition was to survive. Not sure why generalized summaries which are often subject to simplification always take a front seat in these debates tbh.

Because the primary sources don’t rigidly constrain us to your interpretation and can easily be framed within the context of secondary information.

With an environmental disadvantage and the prospect of having to face oncoming clone reinforcements(the main reason as stated in the junior novel as to why Yoda had to flee), yes Sidious as per the quotes is too powerful for Yoda to defeat - in that situation which wouldn't apply on neutral ground. That's one way we can reconcile all the facts with the quotes. Just because a quote leaves out context doesn't mean doesn't exist. Fact still remains Yoda gained the upper hand in the lightsaber duel on perfectly neutral ground in his office as per the script and the junior novel and he at the very least stalemated Sidious in the final lighting battle going by the junior novel or even outright won going by the script. And there are at least two quotes that directly state they are both dead equal in power and none that state Sidious is outright more powerful; only that he was too powerful to defeat - which as I pointed was situational. If he isn't more powerful outright, then it only goes to show he can only be circumstantially "too powerful to defeat".
Master Azronger
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Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 13th 2019, 2:57 am
Here're Lucas' two cents:

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 6387969-yoda%27s%20right%20arm%201
Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 6387970-yoda%27s%20right%20arm%202
O-Siri
O-Siri

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 13th 2019, 3:17 am
That Yoda was defeated doesn't change the circumstances - circumstances Lucas himself set up. Apparently it was important in Lucas's vision that instead of outright overpowering Yoda's barrier, it was crucial to make it look like Sidious was going to outright overpower him and only for Yoda to bounce back and turn the lighning excange into a stalemate. If Lucas though it important to establish Sidious as outright superior, he would have simply allowed Yoda to be overpowered outright. The point I'm making is that you can be deferated without being combativly inferior - just ask Darth Maul.
HeartoftheForce
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May 13th 2019, 4:22 am
Kilius wrote:One quick comment on the source Grey provided:

Yeah no. While it's true Yoda did exhaust himself, so too did Sidious, as per the senior novel:

Yeah no, All Sids did was end his augmentation. Much like how Dooku let's his augmentation go in AotC and is exhausted. Then ramps himself back up the moment Yoda appears.

Also as posted earlier in the thread Yoda was battered and bruised and beaten. Palps was just out of breath.

Demonstrably false.

There are literal sources saying Yoda realised he was outmatched by Sids specifcally and therefore decided to run.

Wheless' team worked out three key poses to tell the story:

1) Yoda and Darth Sidious lock lightsabers

2) Yoda is forced back by Sidious' power, and grimaces in pain

3) Yoda uses all of his strength to push Sidious back

[...]

"The shot is only three seconds long, but it communicates to the audience that Yoda has met his match," he says.

--Insider #86: Yoda’s Right Arm

Though Yoda is a tough combatant, the Emperor uses his Sith powers to release lightning bolts and hurl floating platforms at his foe. Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa.

--Ultimate Star Wars

Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious.

--Revenge of the Sith Story Gallery

The Jedi Master and the Sith Lord dueled in the Senate chamber, but Sidious was too strong for Yoda to defeat.

--Coruscant History Gallery

A fierce duel commenced. Yoda and Darth Sidious each used his side of the Force to try to defeat the other. But the Sith Lord's powers were too strong.

--Revenge of the Sith Canon Junior Novelization

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 1zIeLep

Which is what happened. Yoda gave his all with an environmental edge gave all he had, fought harder than ever before to the point of exhaustion and Sids was still standing.

As to why Yoda ran, it's explained in the junior novel that he ran because he knew the Emperor would summon clone trooper reinforcements and this is collaborated by the senior novel where Sidious sounds the alarm as soon as the battle ends:

And it's not like Yoda couldn't just oneshot all of them. Yoda came off far worse in the final clash because he was weaker. Cut the environment crap. Palps was thrown back and slammed into a hard object straight away after taking the same blast and still recovered fast enough to grab the rail, Yoda had a freefall of several seconds after the same impact and couldn't reorient himself or recover. Why? Because he was exhausted, outmatched, done. Stop trying to get around this.


Last edited by Greysentinel365 on May 13th 2019, 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total
Master Azronger
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May 13th 2019, 5:31 am
Also, here are the rest of the quotes that say Sidious was more powerful than or too powerful for Yoda:

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Sidiou12
Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Defeat10
Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 2019-05-13

Obi-Wan and Vader duel on Mustafar while Yoda and Palpatine duel on Coruscant. Palpatine is too strong for the aging Yoda, who escapes with Bail Organa.

Star Wars: The Comics Companion

(Apologies for the lack of a scan)

Here's a source saying they were equally powerful but Yoda's defeat is still emphasized:

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 2019-05-13
The Adventurous Jedi
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Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 13th 2019, 11:57 am
I'll get back to everyone in this thread later this week.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 13th 2019, 2:10 pm
Yoda brigade still going strong with the mental gymnastics here, never seen the likes of such before.

Spoiler:
O-Siri
O-Siri

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 14th 2019, 2:36 am
@Greysentinel365

Yeah no, All Sids did was end his augmentation. Much like how Dooku let's his augmentation go in AotC and is exhausted.

Well I just reread the fight passage in the main novel and I didn't see any mention of Dooku letting go of his augmentation and reverting - maybe there's another source? Even if that's a valid interpretation of the novel passage Sidious in the film was still left dangling from the rail apparently lacking the upper body strength to pull himself up before the scene ends. Someone who at full strength can push back Maul and Savage one arm apiece has trouble even pulling his own less than average weight over the railing? Yeah he was exhausted from the fight.

There are literal sources saying Yoda realized he was outmatched by Sids specifically and therefore decided to run.

To meet ones match as two meanings: To meet one of equal or superior ability in a combative setting. Given that Yoda drove him back and forced Sidious to seek refuge as per the script and Lucas's word - a more authoritive and reliable source of information than that of yours, we can presume it's the former.

The Canon Junior Novelization isn't relevant in a Legends discussion. The Coruscant history gallery and Revenge of the Sith Story gallery likewise to the best of my knowledge appear to be canon only - a quick search on The Wayback Machine reveals no record of them posted on the SW.website before the cut-off date of April 25th 2014.

As for The Ultimate Star Wars: " Ultimately the battle proves too much for Yoda, who barely escapes and is whisked away to safety by Senator Bail Organa." Yeah the battle did prove too much for Yoda no argument there. Not aruging the result just the way it got there doesn't probe Sidious is outright a superior combatant.

"Not a match for the devastating fury of the Sith Lord." vs "The devastating fury of the Sith Lord was matched by Yoda's knowledge of the Force, making them equally fierce." Yeah Yoda is either no match or a direct match according to these secondary sources. That's why I stick to the primary source material.

Yoda gave his all with an environmental edge

The only place Yoda could arguably be said to have had an environmental edge was when he disarmed him on the podium, but regardless  he was driven back in his office - again perfectly neutral ground, as per the junior novel and the script. If Sidious was "too powerful" why was he driven back? Why did he seek refuge(Lucas's words not mine). If Sidious was "too powerful" why does the script say Yoda pushes him back in the final lightning exchange?  


And it's not like Yoda couldn't just one-shot all of them.

While exhausted and fighting the Emperor at the same time?

Cut the environment crap. Palps was thrown back and slammed into a hard object straight away after taking the same blast and still recovered fast enough to grab the rail, Yoda had a freefall of several seconds after the same impact and couldn't reorient himself or recover. Why? Because he was exhausted, outmatched, done. Stop trying to get around this.

Uh what hard object?

And the freefall would have built up greater velocity and thus a greater impact, pretty basic stuff. Sidious had a frim grip on a railing and even then he was still dangling before the scene ends, Yoda had but his finger nails and a smooth surface, you can't compare the two situations, if Sidious can't even pull himself up over a railing he ain't handing a smooth surface with only fingernails. In fact Sidious actually has grip on the smooth surface of the pod when he is initially blown back.

Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Dfa10

But after sceen cuts he's hanging on the railing, proving he did slip and wouldn't have faired any better than Yoda where he in the same position.


What would have happened if the lightning clash happened on a flat surface? They would have simply been sent flying and the battle would have recommenced though both would have been close to exhaustion at this point.
HeartoftheForce
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Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 14th 2019, 4:00 am
@Kilius

Well I just reread the fight passage in the main novel and I didn't see any mention of Dooku letting go of his augmentation and reverting - maybe there's another source?

The movie.

Even if that's a valid interpretation of the novel passage Sidious in the film was still left dangling from the rail apparently lacking the upper body strength to pull himself up before the scene ends. Someone who at full strength can push back Maul and Savage one arm apiece has trouble even pulling his own less than average weight over the railing? Yeah he was exhausted from the fight.

Kenobi can push back Maul and Savage with one arm each but couldn't pull himself up properly in S6 when hanging off a ledge. SW is just weird like that. Sids is cackling as normal at the end and is not short of breath or showing any other indication of exhaustion in the movie.

To meet ones match as two meanings: To meet one of equal or superior ability in a combative setting. Given that Yoda drove him back and forced Sidious to seek refuge as per the script and Lucas's word - a more authoritative and reliable source of information than that of yours, we can presume it's the former.

Possibly at first but not in the long run of the fight. Yoda couldn't finish Sids even after disarming him. Being simply overwhelmed by his power. Then burning out while Sids was still good to go. Much like how quotes paint the entirety of Anakin and Obi-Wan's fight as them being equal. When we know that at first Obi-Wan was getting wrecked. They equalise at the end. Yoda put up a good fight. But was overwhelmed in the end.

The Canon Junior Novelization isn't relevant in a Legends discussion.


Nowhere was it specified that this was a Legends thread.

"Not a match for the devastating fury of the Sith Lord." vs "The devastating fury of the Sith Lord was matched by Yoda's knowledge of the Force, making them equally fierce." Yeah Yoda is either no match or a direct match according to these secondary sources. That's why I stick to the primary source material.

Where Yoda loses

The only place Yoda could arguably be said to have had an environmental edge was when he disarmed him on the podium, but regardless  he was driven back in his office - again perfectly neutral ground, as per the junior novel and the script. If Sidious was "too powerful" why was he driven back? Why did he seek refuge(Lucas's words not mine). If Sidious was "too powerful" why does the script say Yoda pushes him back in the final lightning exchange?  

Much like how Anakin was able to get a momuntary edge of Dooku in AotC, or Jinn against Maul in TPM. By overcharging themselves and burning out. Sids had never fought someone on Yoda's level and therefore was forced back for a time. But Yoda still couldn't win even with that. With Sids outlasting and overpowering him.

While exhausted and fighting the Emperor at the same time?

Since he's apparently handling him so well it shouldn't be a problem.

Uh what hard object?

The. Pod.

And the freefall would have built up greater velocity and thus a greater impact, pretty basic stuff.

It also gave Yoda more time to recover and didn't stun with with a secondary impact like it did Sids. Sids, depite taking another impact could recover and grab the pod. Yoda, despite hvaing more time to do so, couldn't recover and just land in the main podium.

Sidious had a frim grip on a railing and even then he was still dangling before the scene ends.

At the end of the scene Sids is dangling of his own free will. You see him laughing and turning deliberately to look down for Yoda.

Yoda had but his finger nails and a smooth surface, you can't compare the two situations, if Sidious can't even pull himself up over a railing he ain't handing a smooth surface with only fingernails. In fact Sidious actually has grip on the smooth surface of the pod when he is initially blown back.

Well due to the movie actually screwing up continuity we don't know. As Sids magically teleports to the rail after Yoda falls (There are only rails on one side of the pod, Yoda's. Palps is blown back on the other side). Bare minimum Sids with bare hands stopped his fall after taking a hard hit to back in addition to the same impact Yoda took. Yoda, with time to recover, could not re-orient himself nor help his fall in any way. So no Sids didn't slip he "teleported" with the power of bad editing to the other side of the pod.

What would have happened if the lightning clash happened on a flat surface? They would have simply been sent flying and the battle would have recommenced though both would have been close to exhaustion at this point.

Yoda would be sent flying, landing flat on his back out of breath and helpless. Palps would pretty much tank it, get up and fry his little green friend.
The Adventurous Jedi
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Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

May 14th 2019, 12:06 pm
@GreySentinel365

Someone didn't read the rules...

Standard policy on this forum is that assuming no further context for the matchup is provided the thread is Legends only:

http://suspectinsight.forumotion.com/t9-star-wars-versus-guidelines

Anyway, I'll get back to everyone in this thread later today or tomorrow.
Jake
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Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

September 17th 2019, 1:01 am
@NotAA3 You forgot your response, it’s been 125 days.
Jake
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September 17th 2019, 1:11 am
Bumped because of new quotes;

Palpatine called upon his dark arts, slashing away in fury, but Yoda's accomplished command of the Force blocked his every blow. Overmatched, Palpatine fled into the vast Senate Chamber. (scan)

Star Wars Episode III: Movie Storybook

The two opponents are among the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy, but the ascendant dark side has made Sidious stronger. (scan)

Star Wars in 100 Scenes

Yoda outmatches him in sabers, and Sidious being stronger is attributed to the rising darkness. Without this, the two are likely dead equal in power.
The Adventurous Jedi
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Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 Empty Re: Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

September 17th 2019, 2:56 am
Yeah, I no longer hold the POV that Yoda is better anymore. I have them as dead equals in Force Power and Yoda as superior in sabers, though I don't think it's enough for him to win.
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 17th 2019, 3:01 am
Plus, my debating in this thread was really shit, so I have no desire to revisit it.
Master Azronger
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September 20th 2019, 3:04 pm
Jake wrote:Bumped because of new quotes;

Palpatine called upon his dark arts, slashing away in fury, but Yoda's accomplished command of the Force blocked his every blow. Overmatched, Palpatine fled into the vast Senate Chamber. (scan)

Star Wars Episode III: Movie Storybook

The two opponents are among the most powerful Force-users in the galaxy, but the ascendant dark side has made Sidious stronger. (scan)

Star Wars in 100 Scenes

Yoda outmatches him in sabers, and Sidious being stronger is attributed to the rising darkness. Without this, the two are likely dead equal in power.

Yoda being better in sabers is unquestioned, but it doesn't do him any favors since Sidious can remove that advantage with lightning at any moment he chooses. This is going to come down to a pure Force bout which Sheev wins.

You'd have a point with the imbalance, but given Sheev's power is the thing causing and maintaining it, it's born of his own power. His power causes an imbalance, which strengthens him, which tips the Force further to the dark side, which boosts his power again, etc. - it's a self-feeding loop which explains how the Force was literally getting darker every single day according to Mace Windu in the RotS novelization.
DarthAnt66
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September 20th 2019, 3:11 pm
Well, the unbalance is also due, in large part, from Order 66. Still, when I rank characters, I consider them within the galactic nexus at the time.
HellfireUnit
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September 20th 2019, 3:18 pm
Yoda cannot contend with Emperor's tenacity. This is a battle he lost before his birth.
Master Azronger
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September 20th 2019, 3:21 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:Well, the unbalance is also due, in large part, from Order 66. Still, when I rank characters, I consider them within the galactic nexus at the time.

"In large part"? While the deaths of the Jedi contributed, the initial imbalance was due to Sheev's power which created a self-feeding loop - that's given far more emphasis in a variety of sources than the single line from the junior novelization noting the dark side was gaining strength with the Jedi's death. Not to mention that when he dies, the Force is balanced again, with whatever dark side taint Order 66 left seemingly being negligible.
DarthAnt66
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September 20th 2019, 3:37 pm
"In large part"? While the deaths of the Jedi contributed, the initial imbalance was due to Sheev's power which created a self-feeding loop - that's given far more emphasis in a variety of sources than the single line from the junior novelization noting the dark side was gaining strength with the Jedi's death. Not to mention that when he dies, the Force is balanced again, with whatever dark side taint Order 66 left seemingly being negligible.

I'm saying the "ascendant dark side" in that quote refers to the deaths of all the Jedi / the rise of the Empire.
Master Azronger
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September 20th 2019, 4:09 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:
"In large part"? While the deaths of the Jedi contributed, the initial imbalance was due to Sheev's power which created a self-feeding loop - that's given far more emphasis in a variety of sources than the single line from the junior novelization noting the dark side was gaining strength with the Jedi's death. Not to mention that when he dies, the Force is balanced again, with whatever dark side taint Order 66 left seemingly being negligible.

I'm saying the "ascendant dark side" in that quote refers to the deaths of all the Jedi / the rise of the Empire.

The dark side had been ascendant for years. I don't see that quote talking specifically about the last few hours/days.
Latham2000
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September 20th 2019, 4:25 pm
Palpie wins.
DarthAnt66
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September 20th 2019, 4:38 pm
Azronger wrote:
DarthAnt66 wrote:
"In large part"? While the deaths of the Jedi contributed, the initial imbalance was due to Sheev's power which created a self-feeding loop - that's given far more emphasis in a variety of sources than the single line from the junior novelization noting the dark side was gaining strength with the Jedi's death. Not to mention that when he dies, the Force is balanced again, with whatever dark side taint Order 66 left seemingly being negligible.

I'm saying the "ascendant dark side" in that quote refers to the deaths of all the Jedi / the rise of the Empire.

The dark side had been ascendant for years. I don't see that quote talking specifically about the last few hours/days.

They wouldn't refer to something that's already been the norm for a long period of time. It makes more sense if they're referring to thousands of Jedi dying and the Sith taking galactic power, which obviously would cause a big shift in the Force.
Gideon/Tempest
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September 20th 2019, 8:58 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:
Azronger wrote:
DarthAnt66 wrote:
"In large part"? While the deaths of the Jedi contributed, the initial imbalance was due to Sheev's power which created a self-feeding loop - that's given far more emphasis in a variety of sources than the single line from the junior novelization noting the dark side was gaining strength with the Jedi's death. Not to mention that when he dies, the Force is balanced again, with whatever dark side taint Order 66 left seemingly being negligible.

I'm saying the "ascendant dark side" in that quote refers to the deaths of all the Jedi / the rise of the Empire.

The dark side had been ascendant for years. I don't see that quote talking specifically about the last few hours/days.

They wouldn't refer to something that's already been the norm for a long period of time. It makes more sense if they're referring to thousands of Jedi dying and the Sith taking galactic power, which obviously would cause a big shift in the Force.

I do recall a line from some reference guide that mentions Yoda's spirit being broken by the deaths of so many Jedi. I'll see if I can find it.  Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 1668617588
DarthAnt66
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September 20th 2019, 9:50 pm
Gideon/Tempest wrote:
DarthAnt66 wrote:
Azronger wrote:
DarthAnt66 wrote:
"In large part"? While the deaths of the Jedi contributed, the initial imbalance was due to Sheev's power which created a self-feeding loop - that's given far more emphasis in a variety of sources than the single line from the junior novelization noting the dark side was gaining strength with the Jedi's death. Not to mention that when he dies, the Force is balanced again, with whatever dark side taint Order 66 left seemingly being negligible.

I'm saying the "ascendant dark side" in that quote refers to the deaths of all the Jedi / the rise of the Empire.

The dark side had been ascendant for years. I don't see that quote talking specifically about the last few hours/days.

They wouldn't refer to something that's already been the norm for a long period of time. It makes more sense if they're referring to thousands of Jedi dying and the Sith taking galactic power, which obviously would cause a big shift in the Force.

I do recall a line from some reference guide that mentions Yoda's spirit being broken by the deaths of so many Jedi. I'll see if I can find it.  Yoda V Sidious (Rematch) - Page 3 1668617588

Are you thinking of Head-to-Head? I think that would more apply after his defeat vs Palpatine.
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