Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

Both Characters As Of ROTS.

All Out.

Neutral Ground.

Who Wins?

(HP/AA3 requested I make the thread)

@Kilius @ArkhamAsylum3 You two have strong views on the subject. Care to make a case for Yoda stalemating?

Yoda could potentially win ngl. The best Sidious manages is a stalemate. I'm willing to discuss this at length with anyone who disagrees.

Sidious won...
(This has been discussed tirelessly, every debate yielding the same result: Sidious is superior.)

@dark-sith123

Sidious won...

Yes and TPM Kenobi beat Maul. Guess TPM Kenobi>Maul is now a thing...

Seriously though their power mutualy overloaded and sent them both flying with Yoda only falling because he was lighter (and thus was thrown further) and because he was standing on the edge of the pod meanwhile Sidious was standing nowhere close to his end. You swap around their positions and make Sidious the same weight as Yoda then he goes flying as well and loses the fight. These environmental factors will not come into play given we're discussing a fight on neutral ground and thus no arguments can be made in regards to Sidious winning.

Yoda, on the other hand, overpowered Sidious in 3 blade locks (indicating he possess superior augmentative ability and more than likely superior reserves), drove him back causing Sidious to take refuge in the Senate chamber, disarmed him and was clearly overpowering Sidious in two separate Force Clashes. I don't think I really need to explain who is superior.

Spoiler:

@Arkhamasylum3 TPM Kenobi while amped ( after Jinn's death)  still lost to Maul, and only "won" by PIS.
A Non amped TPM Kenobi (before Jinn's death) was getting humiliated by Maul at every turn even with help of Jinn. Maul scales so ridiculously above TPM Kenobi it's not even funny.
TPM Maul>>>>>AOTC Kenobi aswell.

SithSauce wrote:@Arkhamasylum3 TPM Kenobi while amped ( after Jinn's death)  still lost to Maul, and only "won" by PIS.
A Non amped TPM Kenobi (before Jinn's death) was getting humiliated by Maul at every turn even with help of Jinn. Maul scales so ridiculously above TPM Kenobi it's not even funny.
TPM Maul>>>>>AOTC Kenobi aswell.

I think you missed the entire point of my post...

TPM Maul is obviously > AOTC Kenobi and TPM Kenobi and him getting cheapshotted isn't indicative of anything. The same is true with Yoda losing to Sidious cause of environmental disadvantages. Saying someone "won" a fight and acting as if it's an open and shut case is incredibly disengenuous debating and if go by that logic TPM Kenobi>Maul which was my point.

Yoda had a large environmental advantage. On neutral ground, he loses still.

@SithArchaeologist

Yoda had a large environmental advantage.

I presume you're talking about the podium they fought on? Forgive me if I don't take this argument seriously. Both were noted to be at an environmental disadvantage and not one source proclaims the environment was more hindering for Sidious than Yoda.

This also doesn't address Yoda clearly driving Sidious back in sabers on neutral ground, overpowering him in 3 separate blade locks (indicative of superior augmentative ability given Yoda is obviously less strong than Sidious given he's considerably smaller and requires a walking stick to walk) and clearly beginning to overwhelm Sidious in both of their Force clashes.

On neutral ground, he loses still.

Reasons?

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:

SithSauce wrote:@Arkhamasylum3 TPM Kenobi while amped ( after Jinn's death)  still lost to Maul, and only "won" by PIS.
A Non amped TPM Kenobi (before Jinn's death) was getting humiliated by Maul at every turn even with help of Jinn. Maul scales so ridiculously above TPM Kenobi it's not even funny.
TPM Maul>>>>>AOTC Kenobi aswell.

I think you missed the entire point of my post...

TPM Maul is obviously > AOTC Kenobi and TPM Kenobi and him getting cheapshotted isn't indicative of anything. The same is true with Yoda losing to Sidious cause of environmental disadvantages. Saying someone "won" a fight and acting as if it's an open and shut case is incredibly disengenuous debating and if go by that logic TPM Kenobi>Maul which was my point.

Fair enough.
Not sure I agree with Yoda>Sidious though. The point of that duel is to showcase that Yoda lost. The novel makes it even clearer that Sidious is the superior combatant between the two. All those years of hiding from the jedi order allowed him to train more and grow stronger in the darkside in terms of knowledge and power. Yoda had no chance of countering anything that Sidious brought to the fight, therefore he lost.

@SithSauce

The point of that duel is to showcase that Yoda lost.

Yes, Yoda losing has a symbolic purpose i.e. showcasing the failure of the Jedi. However, Yoda didn't need to legitimately lose for the duel to fulfill its purpose in the narrative merely lose.

The novel makes it even clearer that Sidious is the superior combatant between the two.

Where exactly? As far as I remember the novel goes into very little detail on the specifics of the duel and the only section which really contains much detail is the ending where it describes how Sidious wins. The problem with the final scene though is that Sidious doesn't legitimately overpower Yoda, He fails to conventionally and resorts to jumping away and hitting Yoda with Force Lightning while the latter is mid-air (making him vulnerable). This isn't a legitimate win. Not to mention it's contradictory to the Script, Junior Novel and Movie.

Also in order to convince me Sidious is superior, you're going to have to address the rest of the stuff I've posted in this thread regarding their fight.

All those years of hiding from the jedi order allowed him to train more and grow stronger in the darkside in terms of knowledge and power.

Great...? Yoda's been teaching Jedi for 900 years...

Yoda had no chance of winning.

The movie and script disagree.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:@SithSauce

The point of that duel is to showcase that Yoda lost.

Yes, Yoda losing has a symbolic purpose i.e. showcasing the failure of the Jedi. However, Yoda didn't need to legitimately lose for the duel to fulfill its purpose in the narrative merely lose.

The novel makes it even clearer that Sidious is the superior combatant between the two.

Where exactly? As far as I remember the novel goes into very little detail on the specifics of the duel and the only section which really contains much detail is the ending where it describes how Sidious wins. The problem with the final scene though is that Sidious doesn't legitimately overpower Yoda, He fails to conventionally and resorts to jumping away and hitting Yoda with Force Lightning while the latter is mid-air (making him vulnerable). This isn't a legitimate win. Not to mention it's contradictory to the Script, Junior Novel and Movie.

Also in order to convince me Sidious is superior, you're going to have to address the rest of the stuff I've posted in this thread regarding their fight.

All those years of hiding from the jedi order allowed him to train more and grow stronger in the darkside in terms of knowledge and power.

Great...? Yoda's been teaching Jedi for 900 years...

Yoda had no chance of winning.

The movie and script disagree.

Script disagrees?
I'll try and find the Sidious>Yoda quotes for you tomorrow.
I have the ROTS novel stored on my ipad, so I will try and send you a snapshot of the quotes if I can.

@SithSauce

Script disagrees?

Yes. Yoda disarms Sidious and nearly overwhelmed him in a Lightning clash.

I'll try and find the Sidious>Yoda quotes for you tomorrow.

Don't bother if you're talking about sourcebooks. I've already seen them. C-Canon secondary sources have no bearing on the primary material especially given 99% of them are generalised summaries.

I have the ROTS novel stored on my ipad, so I will try and send you a snapshot of the quotes if I can.

Okay.

Sids wins again

@Greysentinel365

Reasons why? If it's Sidious winning when they fought I'll just copy paste what I wrote to dark-sith123:

Yes and TPM Kenobi beat Maul. Guess TPM Kenobi>Maul is now a thing...

Seriously though their power mutualy overloaded and sent them both flying with Yoda only falling because he was lighter (and thus was thrown further) and because he was standing on the edge of the pod meanwhile Sidious was standing nowhere close to his end. You swap around their positions and make Sidious the same weight as Yoda then he goes flying as well and loses the fight. These environmental factors will not come into play given we're discussing a fight on neutral ground and thus no arguments can be made in regards to Sidious winning.

Yoda, on the other hand, overpowered Sidious in 3 blade locks (indicating he possess superior augmentative ability and more than likely superior reserves), drove him back causing Sidious to take refuge in the Senate chamber, disarmed him and was clearly overpowering Sidious in two separate Force Clashes. I don't think I really need to explain who is superior.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Yoda could potentially win ngl. The best Sidious manages is a stalemate. I'm willing to discuss this at length with anyone who disagrees.

You have lost this debate so many times, yet you continue spewing this nonsense, incredible.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Yoda could potentially win ngl. The best Sidious manages is a stalemate. I'm willing to discuss this at length with anyone who disagrees.

You have lost this debate so many times, yet you continue spewing this nonsense, incredible.

Apparently once is now "so many times"... Especially given the debate was in Voice Channel in Discord which I pretty much suck at it. If you believe it's such an easy debate then debate me in an SS. Now please actually contribute rather than bringing up past discussions or shut up.

Yoda, on the other hand, overpowered Sidious in 3 blade locks (indicating he possess superior augmentative ability and more than likely superior reserves)

You don't even know Sidious is stronger then Yoda, he is a different species and thusly could have different physiology. There are other factors beyond strength that go into a blade lock. In a vacuum, you are right but in conjunction with quotes that state Sidious' superiority(can't be asked to get them, but you already conceded on this point, so I no value in finding them), there is no contradiction.

drove him back causing Sidious to take refuge in the Senate chamber

This is by the old script, we don't know if Lucas' perceptions of the characters changed, so as a result, this is suspect at best. Beyond this, if I find refuge in a grueling battle that does not necessarily mean I am losing. It is a vague implicature at best and vague implicatures don't override direct statements.

clearly overpowering Sidious in two separate Force Clashes

Oh, do tell us your great insight.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Yoda could potentially win ngl. The best Sidious manages is a stalemate. I'm willing to discuss this at length with anyone who disagrees.

You have lost this debate so many times, yet you continue spewing this nonsense, incredible.

Apparently once is now "so many times"... Especially given the debate was in Voice Channel in Discord which I pretty much suck at it. If you believe it's such an easy debate then debate me in an SS. Now please actually contribute rather than bringing up past discussions or shut up.

I recall thrice.

@DarthSkywalker0

You don't even know Sidious is stronger then Yoda, he is a different species and thusly could have different physiology.

Yes under normal circumstances you'd be right though in case you didn't notice Yoda requires a walking stick when he's not physically augmenting himself showing that he's clearly not as strong as Sidious who is in a perfectly healthy physical condition.

There are other factors beyond strength that go into a blade lock.

Elaborate on what advantages Yoda could have had.

In a vacuum, you are right but in conjunction with quotes that state Sidious' superiority(can't be asked to get them, but you already conceded on this point, so I no value in finding them), there is no contradiction.

I mean this wasn't really a direct rebuttal to that point but more me just pointing out evidence that Yoda could potentially be superior.

This is by the old script, we don't know if Lucas' perceptions of the characters changed, so as a result, this is suspect at best.

It also happens in the JN. Not to mention the script I'm referencing mostly aligns with the movie and Junior Novelization in its depiction of events which strengthens its credibility so I don't see why quotes from it shouldn't be taken as canon. Moreover, unpublished scripts are G-Canon per Chee unless you can prove there is a direct contradiction with something of greater canon status (like the movie).

Beyond this, if I find refuge in a grueling battle that does not necessarily mean I am losing. It is a vague implicature at best and vague implicatures don't override direct statements.

I agree. Once again you seem to be interpreting this as an actual rebuttal to the Sidious>Yoda quotes which it isn't (how can it be when it's discussing sabers and not overall combative superiority). My primary rebuttal was mysteriously left unaddressed throughout your entire response to me (please address it next post). Anyway, in case you haven't noticed Sidious doesn't retreat in basically any of his saber duels (he always likes to be the aggressor) so the fact that he does so here indicates he's most likely being forcibly pushed back and is on the losing end. Hell if you look at his fight with Mace Windu despite also facing an equal in that fight he doesn't retreat indicating Yoda's probably superior in sabers.

Oh, do tell us your great insight.

Well for starters we have their Force Clash after Sheev was disarmed where Yoda begins to arc his Lightning back at him and the script notes it looks as though Sidious was "doomed". Then you have the final Lightning clash where Yoda clearly begins to overpower Sidious as is evidenced by Sidious's face contorting in horror and Yoda clearly remaining unfazed by Sidious's Lightning.

@DarthSkywalker0

I recall thrice.

Remind me. As far as I'm aware it's not even possible for you to have bodied me thrice when we've only discussed it twice...

Eh the only strong view I really have was that Yoda wasn't overpowered in their final lightning battle and that all the quotes stating he was outmatched outright was objectively false. Other than that I could see either winning.

I at the time I made my arguments only an extreme minority were in Yoda's favor and everyone who made a case was shot down by the majority. Now it seems at least 40% are at least willing to accept he wasn't overpowered in the lightning exchange and that's good enough for me.

Sidious wins. Again. Every time.

SithArchaeologist wrote:Yoda had a large environmental advantage. On neutral ground, he loses still.

Could you elaborate?