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DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 6:38
@Jake wrote:
@DarthAdi The last time Ahsoka saw Maul was during the siege of Manadalore. Why would she know that Maul is past his prime. If anything, she might have thought he is even more powerfull considering he lived on a planet full of sith lore for years. Also, rebels Maul being past his prime is not officialy confirmed. Matt Martin's opinion is not canon acording to himself. Matt Martin also said that in his opinion TCW Maul is past his prime.

Not sure what the consensus is among creators, but I doubt starwars.com would allow a writer to post something like this without it being approved;

There’s not a single moment here, but a progression of moments that honestly blew me away. When we first meet him, this “Old Master” is frail, hesitant, even fearful. As the story continues, you see those traits melt away, but there’s a flow to it. The more Ezra trusts, the more Maul becomes himself until, finally, he’s at full strength and more powerful than ever. 

Starwars.com - Ranking Rebels: Twilight of the Apprentice (link)


[hideedit]
StarWars.com blogs are not canon iirc. That being said, what is Maul's prime is everyone's guess. Nothing is officialy confirmed.
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 7:05
@DarthAdi:

Sure, there were circumstances.

But they don't matter right? Guess TPM Kenobi>Maul then.

Ben was still clearly superior and more powerfull acording to Filoni.

That doesn't mean he can three shot him.

Ahsoka being sub Rebels Maul is very suspect when teenager Ahsoka is going to give TCW Maul a good fight.

Proof Ahsoka grew massively?

The starwars.com only confirms that the plan was to put the weakest (Ezra) with the strongest (Maul in their opinion) We don't know if their opinion is correct.

Why would it be incorrect? No rationalisation has been provided for this.

The last time Ahsoka saw Maul was during the siege of Manadalore. Why would she know that Maul is past his prime. If anything, she might have thought he is even more powerfull considering he lived on a planet full of sith lore for years. Also, rebels Maul being past his prime is not officialy confirmed. Matt Martin's opinion is not canon acording to himself. Matt Martin also said that in his opinion TCW Maul is past his prime.

Maul's prime has no relevance to my point in the slightest.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on Wed 1 Jan 2020 - 8:14; edited 1 time in total
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 8:11
But they don't matter right? Guess TPM Kenobi>Maul then.

I never said that

That doesn't mean he can three shot him.

Fair enough, but Ben is still significantly superior. I think you are familiar with this quote.

''I wanted to create a lot of similarities in the way the fight happened and the way Obi-Wan beats Maul. I felt that with Maul, any moment that he parries Obi-Wan is saying that he’s as good as Obi-Wan and I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think Maul ever accepted a path of selflessness and enlightenment and in the end, never getting over his need for revenge, and his anger and the way his life worked out is what undid him.''


Proof Ahsoka grew massively?

I mean, there are like 15 years between TCW and Rebels. Ahsoka was only 17 when TCW ended and 32 when Rebels started. If there is a period of time in their life when force user tend to grow a lot in power is this. Unless you think Ahsoka was close to her full potential when she was 17 it is resonable to think her growth was significant. Ahsoka is a prodigy who in 3 years went from being stomped by Ventress to being able to give Maul a good fight and you want to tell me that in the next 15 years her growth was minimal? She being below Maul (Who she gave a good fight as teenager) after 15 years of growth is very unlikely unless Maul grew in power too which most users tend to disagree with (most think he is past his prime). I assumed you belive that too.


Why would it be incorrect? No rationalisation has been provided for this.

The last time Ahsoka saw Maul was during the siege of Manadalore. Why would she know that Maul is past his prime. If anything, she might have thought he is even more powerfull considering he lived on a planet full of sith lore for years

The ideea is that Ahsoka has no clue how powerfull is Maul The quote refers to a character opinion. Since when we take character opinions seriously if is not suported by feats ( Ahsoka did better against Vader than Maul against Ben and we know Vader>Ben) especially if the character in question (Ahsoka) doesn't know much about Maul's current power level . In AOTC Anakin said that Kenobi is as strong as Windu and as wise as Yoda. 
If Rebels is Maul's prime the quote might be plausible, if Rebels Maul is past his prime this quote makes no sense when TCW Ahsoka is close to Maul (she might even beat him if Filoni is that crazy)


Last edited by DarthAdi on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 8:20; edited 1 time in total
DarthAdi
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Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 8:18
@DC77 (Reborn):
forgot to tag
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Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 9:28
@DarthAdi:

I never said that

You implied it.

Fair enough, but Ben is still significantly superior. I think you are familiar with this quote.

Besides the point. This is basically a concession on your entire argument.

I mean, there are like 15 years between TCW and Rebels. Ahsoka was only 17 when TCW ended and 32 when Rebels started. If there is a period of time in their life when force user tend to grow a lot in power is this. Unless you think Ahsoka was close to her full potential when she was 17 it is resonable to think her growth was significant. Ahsoka is a prodigy who in 3 years went from being stomped by Ventress to being able to give Maul a good fight and you want to tell me that in the next 15 years her growth was minimal? She being below Maul (Who she gave a good fight as teenager) after 15 years of growth is very unlikely unless Maul grew in power too which most users tend to disagree with (most think he is past his prime). I assumed you belive that too.

You're just assuming growth because she grew during the war - a time period of greater emotional stress and development. Applying that too her later years is flawed, and an argument made in inherently poor faith. Unless you can provide something I'll assume she stagnated, time gaps don't indicate growth. Also, don't assume my opinions on anything, they seldom conform with the norms of the forum.

The ideea is that Ahsoka has no clue how powerfull is Maul

Force users can sense each other's power.

Since when we take character opinions seriously if is not suported by feats

Since holistic intent has been a thing, and since characters have proven reliable on a multitude of occasions.

( Ahsoka did better against Vader than Maul against Ben and we know Vader>Ben)

Again, Ben vs Maul was plagued by half a dozen circumstances that make it non legitimate, rendering this comparison baseless.

In AOTC Anakin said that Kenobi is as strong as Windu and as wise as Yoda.

Anakin is obviously biased in favour of Kenobi, who, per Anakin himself is "the closest thing I have to a father", and has taught him since he was a small boy. Ahsoka has no bias in favour of Maul.

If Rebels is Maul's prime the quote might be plausible, if Rebels Maul is past his prime this quote makes no sense when TCW Ahsoka is close to Maul (she might even beat him if Filoni is that crazy)

All of the above is speculation, and your own personal opinion, based on absolutely nothing within the lore.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 10:15
@DC77 (Reborn):

You implied it

I didn't


Besides the point. This is basically a concession on your entire argument.


Is a cocession only on the three shoot thing. The bulk of my post was about the Maul>Ahsoka thing. But, fair enough, i don't even know why i mentioned Ben threeshooting Maul in my initial post when not even i belived that in anormal fight that would happen. My bad



You're just assuming growth because she grew during the war - a time period of greater emotional stress and development. Applying that too her later years is flawed, and an argument made in inherently poor faith. Unless you can provide something I'll assume she stagnated, time gaps don't indicate growth. Also, don't assume my opinions on anything, they seldom conform with the norms of the forum.







Most of her growth was in the period of time after she leaved the jedi order until the Siege of Mandalore (she was still significantly inferior to Grievous before she left the order), a time where she was not part of any battle as she was no longer a general of the republic. The jedi purge is for sure a better time to grow in power than a period when she did nothing of note. Fighting inquisitors>>>whatever she did the year after she left the order.


Force users can sense each other's power.


They can, but not with exactity. The force is not a machine that tells you exactly how powerfull is someone. 


Since holistic intent has been a thing, and since characters have proven reliable on a multitude of occasions.


Considering Filoni is making teenager Ahsoka fight Maul and doing well, and considering he said that in the Rebels time period only Vader and Sidious can match her blow for blow i'm not sure holistic intent favours Maul. 


Anakin is obviously biased in favour of Kenobi, who, per Anakin himself is "the closest thing I have to a father", and has taught him since he was a small boy. Ahsoka has no bias in favour of Maul.


The disparity between AOTC Kenobi and Yoda/Windu is huge. With all the bias, Anakin would have to be a nerf herder to think Kenobi=Yoda if the force can tell you exactly how powerfull is someone.




If we takes this kind of quotes as the end all be all Vader is a better duelist than Sidious (the list) and a more powerfull sith (Fallen Order quote).
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 10:49
@DarthAdi:

Is a cocession only on the three shoot thing. The bulk of my post was about the Maul>Ahsoka thing. But, fair enough, i don't even know why i mentioned Ben threeshooting Maul in my initial post when not even i belived that in anormal fight that would happen. My bad

You do realise my entire argument was made against the notion that Vader is above someone capable of three shotting Maul, ergo this concession means my work is finished. I really could not give less of a kriff about the rest.

Most of her growth was in the period of time after she leaved the jedi order until the Siege of Mandalore (she was still significantly inferior to Grievous before she left the order), a time where she was not part of any battle as she was no longer a general of the republic. The jedi purge is for sure a better time to grow in power than a period when she did nothing of note. Fighting inquisitors>>>whatever she did the year after she left the order.

Hold your horses tiger, we don't even know how well Ahsoka will perform yet, and more to the point, you've provided no proof she never got into any combat, nor that the time wasn't emotionally stressful enough to spark growth, which is a factor mentioned in my previous post.

They can, but not with exactity. The force is not a machine that tells you exactly how powerfull is someone.

Sure, but the idea is they have a general premise. That coupled with the fact that Ahsoka saw Maul duelling just prior, means she should have a fairly strong understanding of Maul's capabilities.

Considering Filoni is making teenager Ahsoka fight Maul and doing well, and considering he said that in the Rebels time period only Vader and Sidious can match her blow for blow i'm not sure holistic intent favours Maul.

The quote in question isn't including Maul.

The disparity between AOTC Kenobi and Yoda/Windu is huge. With all the bias, Anakin would have to be a nerf herder to think Kenobi=Yoda if the force can tell you exactly how powerfull is someone.

That's exactly the point... Anakin's conception of Kenobi's abilities is disproportionate to what they are in reality, because of his bias, regardless of whether that makes Anakin an sculag. By comparison, Ahsoka is objectively assessing Maul without rose tinted glasses on.

If we takes this kind of quotes as the end all be all Vader is a better duelist than Sidious (the list) and a more powerfull sith (Fallen Order quote).

There's a distinction between an IU character assessment that speaks to holistic intent, and random, obviously incorrect cereal box accolades.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:13; edited 1 time in total
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:08
[size=38]Hold your horses tiger, we don't even know how well Ahsoka will perform yet, and more to the point, you've provided no proof she never got into any combat, nor that the time wasn't emotionally stressful enough to spark growth, which is a factor mentioned in my previous post.[/size]
Sure, we will see in february i guess. 
The ideea is that the purge should be a period of far greater emotional stress (as can be seen with Cal Kestis who experienced sigbificant growth in this period) than a period of time where she was not part of the war. It was a period when she tried to find a new life outside the jedi order and she was not hunted by an organizations who wanted all the jedi death dispatching inquisitors and purgetroopers to do the job. Unlikely that she fought anything more than thugs, and maybe some bounty hunters in the year after she left the order. If she did, you are the one who need to bring evidence for that.
Edit: forgot to tag 
@DC77 (Reborn):
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Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:37
When did Filoni ever imply Ahsoka > Maul?
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:42
Rebels Maul and Ahsoka's duel was inconclusive. We have no way of knowing how it would have gone, considering that Ahsoka ended it by leaving to rescue Ezra from Vader. It's likely that she has better physicals and stamina than him at this point, but her skill and power are highly questionable. Both are clearly sub Rebels Vader and >>> the Seventh Sister (the best of the trio on Malachor), which is pretty vague.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:49
not to mention the fact thats implied that the higher the number in their number, the weaker they are too lol
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:51
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:not to mention the fact thats implied that the higher the number in their number, the weaker they are too lol
For the Inquisitors? Seventh Sister is more skilled than the Fifth and is probably more powerful too, so I'm not sure that applies. There's also the Sixth Brother, who as a Jedi gave a holding back TCW Mace a decent fight and even tagged him a few times.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:53
i think the 10th brother is the most skilled of them all, but he was also the weakest. I think u see him in the vader comic. white haired guy, i believe.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:53
He got wrecked by Clone troopers when even the Ninth Sister could hold them off. He was pathetic.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:54
exactly my point. he was more skilled than the others, but he also hella weak.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 11:58
If he were skilled, he could have deflected blaster fire. If the Ninth Sister who openly admits that combat isn't her strength could survive while he got peppered after a few seconds, he's both pretty unskilled and weak.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 12:01
i was sure he was stated to have been one of their most skilled members. maybe im confusing him with another one of them. i know he got killed by those fodder, but i always thought it was cuz he was slow and his precog was kriff, which would derive from him being weak in the force.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 12:04
yeah, im pretty sure its him. he also fought mace windu, and lost. he was also blind. Mace complimented his powers and everything. maybe he died cuz of plot reasons.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 13:03
@Rohirrim wrote:I'm not trying to imply Luke would be a challenge to Yoda, I'm just stablishing that other, arguably much less talented Jedi have improved enormously in a relatively short period of time.

My disagreement was in applying that line of thinking to Luke/Yoda, something that SithSauce was supporting. Obviously uber prodigies can become stronger than others with less training, this is known.

Still, any challenge Luke might have posed to Vader is a result of the Sith Lord deciding not to destroy Luke whenever he had a chance to do so. The following quotes indicate there was no relativity at all:

The experienced Sith Lord easily defeats the untrained Skywalker, chopping off his right hand. 
- Star Wars: Galactic Atlas.


"You'll find that I am full of surprises," luke said, but he was posturing. He was no match for the Sith Lord. 
- The Empire Strikes Back - 6 stories in 1.

Luke dueled Vader, but proved no match for the Sith Lord's Force powers and experience with a lightsaber.
- Luke Skywalker Biography Gallery, starwars.com.

Although he had been only briefly instructed by Yoda, Luke Skywalker showed great ability in the Force during his duel with Darth Vader on Bespin. He had enough strength to challenge Vader, but Luke was far too hasty. 

Star Wars: Lightsabers - A Guide to Weapons of the Force (2018)

I'll rephrase; Luke had enough strength to challenge Vader but ultimately failed to bring that power to bear because he was far too hasty, so all of your quotes are irrelevant. The above statement isn't factoring in any Vader restraint at all, only that Empire Strikes Back Luke has the power to challenge him, period. 

The idea that an author wrote "He had enough strength to challenge Vader" with the idea that you, the reader, is supposed to add a few extra layers and interpret it as "Luke had the strength to challenge Vader only because his father is massively holding back, otherwise Luke would be easily destroyed" is ridiculous. Your interpretation of the quote defeats the purpose of writing it into a sourcebook in the first place.
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Vader vs Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: Vader vs Yoda

on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 13:12
@SithSauce wrote:Don't bother responding to Jake, he's just going to find excuses to lowball Vader even more. That's what he does best

If you disagree with what Jake says, you should explain why he's lowballing Vader rather than trying to dissuade against dialogue.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 13:16
Literally all that quote means is that Vader couldn't instantly dispatch him. Impressive, but Vader also couldn't instantly dispatch the likes of two inquisitors despite being far more powerful than them combined. They still "challenged" him in a sense by fighting him and making him even slightly exert himself, rather than him just steamrolling them off the bat.

Having the strength to challenge someone is vague as hell and is hardly a clear testament to skill.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 13:29
Jake ragdolling with cereal box accolades.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 13:34
BreakofDawn wrote:Literally all that quote means is that Vader couldn't instantly dispatch him. Impressive, but Vader also couldn't instantly dispatch the likes of two inquisitors despite being far more powerful than him. They still "challenged" him in a sense by fighting him, rather than him just steamrolling them off the bat.

That interpretation also defeats the purpose of the quote. If this challenging is limited only to being beyond instantly dispatch tier, then I expect to see each member of the inquisitorius and half of all Order 66 survivors with accolades claiming they too have the "strength to challenge Vader." I can appeal to authorial intent all day here. If challenge in this context merely meant "fight", why the ambiguity? Why not just phrase it as 'Luke had the strength to fight Vader'? 

Almost anyone has the strength to fight Darth Vader, but Luke has the strength to challenge him.
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 13:38
Will reply later, half asleep here.
Jake
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on Fri 27 Dec 2019 - 13:39
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Jake ragdolling with cereal box accolades.

No more 'cereal box' than those from the opposing side.
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