Anakin Vs Obi Wan?

Similar to the Starkiller/Galen Marek Vs Vader one, this is to get the misconceptions out of the way once and for all. It was widely accepted that Obi Wan had a mental amp which resulted in an overall amp at the end of their fight, while Anakin, from the start, was mentally hindered, jobbing, etc. My questions are:

- How much proof is there that Obi Wan got an amp?

- How much proof is there that Anakin was mentally hindered?

- If Anakin was jobbing (proof that he was, in this case, please), was it on purpose cuz he was being cocky?

- If it wasnt on purpose, would that support the idea that he was mentally hindered?

- Did the fact that both knew each other's fighting style, technique, and habits work more in Obi Wan's favor than in Anakin's? if so, why was this the case?

- If Anakin was being cocky in the first place, was he holding back? If so, show proof that he was holding back, please.

Thanks to anybody who answers this.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Similar to the Starkiller/Galen Marek Vs Vader one, this is to get the misconceptions out of the way once and for all.

No people are going to be keep arguing about this until it's 2030.

@lorenzo.r.2nd:

- How much proof is there that Obi Wan got an amp?

There's a quote that says MF Kenobi is his peak, but nothing that proves he got a mid duel power up due to "letting go" or whatever, that's a groundless fan theory, and always has been.

- How much proof is there that Anakin was mentally hindered?

Nick has said that as of MF Anakin "hadn't learned the mental side" of fighting or something along those lines, there's sources that clarify Anakin was "overwhelmed" by rage, Anakin fails to sense Kenobi and gets his TK stalemated, despite having Yoda/Sidious level power so yeah, there's a lot.

- If Anakin was jobbing (proof that he was, in this case, please), was it on purpose cuz he was being cocky?

Anakin himself only lost due to overconfidence... that's made pretty clear when watching the film. It didn't hinder his performance throughout the duel though.

- If it wasnt on purpose, would that support the idea that he was mentally hindered?

Overconfidence =/= Mental hinderance.

- Did the fact that both knew each other's fighting style, technique, and habits work more in Obi Wan's favor than in Anakin's? if so, why was this the case?

Because playing a purely defensive game while pre-empting somebody who's every move you're familiar with is a much better way to drag a fight out well past its expiration date than attacking with knowledge of your opponents form...

- If Anakin was being cocky in the first place, was he holding back? If so, show proof that he was holding back, please.

Cockiness =/= Holding back.

- How much proof is there that Obi Wan got an amp?

There's some evidence Obi-Wan dug deeper than he had ever before but I wouldn't call that an external amp. The word amp is tossed around too much. More often it's a case of will power and determination. 

- How much proof is there that Anakin was mentally hindered?

In the novel, there is the constant recurrence of the "star dragon" that eats away at his confidence. As of Knightfall he's seemingly destroyed it for good but after killing the separatists it's revealed it metaphorically left it's lingering venom in Anakin's system thus reawakening his doubts. On the other hand, the same passage states Anakin was continuing to grow more powerful even after Knightfall. 

Did the fact that both knew each other's fighting style, technique, and habits work more in Obi Wan's favor than in Anakin's? if so, why was this the case?

I would say Kenobi's style is perfect for competing with Anakin's. He's the ultimate defensive fighter and yes mutual knowledge could have helped(though I would argue Soresu was more crucial). 

- If Anakin was jobbing (proof that he was, in this case, please), was it on purpose cuz he was being cocky?

Nah. Anakin isn't on Sidious or Yoda's level yet. He's better than Kenobi and Dooku, but he's too mentally weak to hang with the big boys yet. People put to much stock in Anakin being a 9 even though Gillard stated Anakin wasn't mentally superior to Kenobi, and Luca's quote "From then on he wasn't as strong as Sidious" even though he could easily be referring to potential or raw power, especially given he had Yoda state Kenobi isn't capable of taking on the Emporer(obvious) but still has a chance in taking Anakin, which implies Lucas did not intend Anakin as of RotS to be quite on Yoda and Sidious's level yet.

@O-Siri

As of Knightfall he's seemingly destroyed it for good but after killing the separatists it's revealed it metaphorically left it's lingering venom in Anakin's system thus reawakening his doubts. On the other hand, the same passage states Anakin was continuing to grow more powerful even after Knightfall.

Those aren't mutually exclusive terms. It can simaltaneously be true that Anakin's power is increasing but his control over that power is lessening due to doubt.

I would say Kenobi's style is perfect for competing with Anakin's. He's the ultimate defensive fighter and yes mutual knowledge could have helped(though I would argue Soresu was more crucial).

Nick and the ROTS novel disagree.

People put to much stock in Anakin being a 9 even though Gillard stated Anakin wasn't mentally superior to Kenobi,

Because he wasn't as of the duel no, but as of Knightfall he has complete clarity of mind.

and Luca's quote "From then on he wasn't as strong as Sidious" even though he could easily be referring to potential or raw power,

It's referring too power in the present, so potential is out. As for raw power, Anakin has total mastery and focus as of Knightfall, it's doubtful any power he wields is unapplicable.

especially give he had Yoda state Kenobi isn't capable of taking on the Emporer(obvious) but still has a chance in taking Anakin, which implies Lucas did not intend Anakin as of RotS to be quite on Yoda and Sidious's level yet.

It's possible Yoda thought Kenobi was familiar enough with Anakin to find a path to victory, unlike with the emperor of whom he's unaware. Furthermore Yoda has no way of knowing Anakin's full power circa knightfall, he never encounters him during that time period.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Those aren't mutually exclusive terms. It can simaltaneously be true that Anakin's power is increasing but his control over that power is lessening due to doubt.

The only time the "star dragon's" hindered Anakin's ability to perform effectively was against Dooku when he was proactively suppressing his killer instinct. As of Mustafar he no longer has those mental reservations. 

Nick and the ROTS novel disagree.

I assume you are referring to the Gillard's "they matched each other perfectly" quote, he was just referring to Hayden and Mcgregor's on set performance as their own stuntmen, not the characters of Anakin and Obi-Wan. 

If Kenobi was an offensive fighter, mutual knowledge wouldn't be enough. The more skilled more powerful fighter would still hold the edge and overwhelm him eventually. Kenobi's defensive skills were absolutely crucial in nullifying Anakin's offense.

Because he wasn't as of the duel no, but as of Knightfall he has complete clarity of mind.

Gillard isn't saying what you are inferring. He said Anakin hasn't mastered the mental side of things and as a result, although he's gone passed Kenobi physically he hasn't gone passed him mentally. Period.  As in he's never mastered the mental side of things. He isn't implying Anakin had mental mastery during the peak of his IH performance or Knightfall and then lost it specifically as of Mustafar.  

Clarity of mind doesn't infer mental mastery. Gillard isn't saying Anakin is mentally hindered, he's saying Anakin is lacking mental mastery. There's a difference.

It's referring too power in the present, so potential is out. 

Potential can be present too. From then on he no longer had the potential to surpass Sidious, he could only aspire to be like Maul and Dooku, not what he was supposed to be. 

As for raw power, Anakin has total mastery and focus as of Knightfall, it's doubtful any power he wields is unapplicable.

He had clarity, nowhere does it say he had total mastery. 



I can concede Anakin might be implied to be more powerful than Yoda, but power isn't everything in a fight if you lack the mental mastery, as Gillard is quick to point in. Yoda and Sidious possess the mental discipline as well as the physical prowess of 9. Most experts will tell you fighting is 90% mental so yes Anakin lacking in the mental mastery IS a big factor, a probably why a tier 8 fighter with the right style advantage can go life and death with him.

It's possible Yoda thought Kenobi was familiar enough with Anakin to find a path to victory, unlike with the emperor of whom he's unaware. 

I'm talking about intent here. People cling to Lucas's vague quote which is the only support for Anakin's parity with Sidious, when there are multiple interpretations of that quote. Intent provides clarity to multiple interpretations. 

Furthermore Yoda has no way of knowing Anakin's full power circa knightfall, he never encounters him during that time period.

Incorrect, both Yoda and Kenobi witnessed Anakin's casual slaughtering of Cin Drallig and his students on the holorecording. They have a good gage for how Anakin has grown.

@O-Siri:

The only time the "star dragon's" hindered Anakin's ability to perform effectively was against Dooku when he was proactively suppressing his killer instinct. As of Mustafar he no longer has those mental reservations.

Not only is this a goalpost switch from your original point, but Anakin no longer supressing his killer instinct doesn't preclude him from being hindered. At this point in time Anakin is filled with fear, rage and doubt, all emotions which have been shown to hinder characters throughout the mythos and emotions that were specifically noted to "overwhelm" Anakin, per sourcebook quotes.

I assume you are referring to the Gillard's "they matched each other perfectly" quote, he was just referring to Hayden and Mcgregor's on set performance as their own stuntmen, not the characters of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

I wasn't actually.

If Kenobi was an offensive fighter, mutual knowledge wouldn't be enough. The more skilled more powerful fighter would still hold the edge and overwhelm him eventually. Kenobi's defensive skills were absolutely crucial in nullifying Anakin's offense.

I never implied otherwise, heck if you take a look back through my posting history you'll find me reiterating this fact a great many times, however it has no bearing on what I stated, which was that the aspect of familiarity present was a more pivotal reason for Anakin's inability to overwhelm Kenobi.

Potential can be present too. From then on he no longer had the potential to surpass Sidious, he could only aspire to be like Maul and Dooku, not what he was supposed to be.

The quote says "From then on he wasn't as strong as the emperor" which clearly can't be referring to potential, given Lucas has noted Anakin's potential is 2x that of Sheev, yet under this quote it'd be = to Sidious's. Moreover, to anyone with an IQ above 90 reading this, it's pretty obvious it's referring to power.

He had clarity, nowhere does it say he had total mastery.

Clarity of mind and emotional strength are directly linked to mastery.

I'm talking about intent here. People cling to Lucas's vague quote which is the only support for Anakin's parity with Sidious, when there are multiple interpretations of that quote. Intent provides clarity to multiple interpretations.

There's nothing "vague" about Lucas's quote, and it's not the only evidence we have to draw upon, just the one with no way of bending around it via arguing "muh canon policy" or something along those lines. Moreover, Yoda's line proves correct, as we see in the film, and as I noted prior when Lucas inserted that line, and when Yoda spoke it he could be referring to any number of plausible factors, such as the one's that appeared in the duel itself. Grasping onto it for the purposes of "intent" is flawed, an IU character statement with about 50 different interpretations doesn't speak to any kind of intent.

Incorrect, both Yoda and Kenobi witnessed Anakin's casual slaughtering of Cin Drallig and his students on the holorecording. They have a good gage for how Anakin has grown.

You didn't seriously just try to argue that Kenobi and Yoda witnessing Anakin's laid back performance means they're familiar with his full capabilities?

@DC77 (Reborn) 

You didn't seriously just try to argue that Kenobi and Yoda witnessing Anakin's laid back performance means they're familiar with his full capabilities?

I could be wrong, but I think what he's trying to say is that Anakin went from being a talented duelist who could be compared to the best in the order (Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Cin) in technical skill, to casually stomping one of these swordsmasters. I don't necessarily agree with this, btw.

I said that Obi-Wan and Yoda have no way of knowing how good Anakin is by this point, he countered by saying they saw him slaughtering Cin and co, which as I pointed out obviously isn't representative of Anakin's full capabilities.

I know. I agree with you.

DC77 (Reborn)@O-Siri:

The only time the "star dragon's" hindered Anakin's ability to perform effectively was against Dooku when he was proactively suppressing his killer instinct. As of Mustafar he no longer has those mental reservations.

Not only is this a goalpost switch from your original point,

@O-Siri: Not really. My original point was to provide reasonable doubt to the claim Anakin was hindered. 

but Anakin no longer suppressing his killer instinct doesn't preclude him from being hindered.

@O-Siri: That's for you to prove. I don't need to prove Anakin wasn't hindered, it's an extraordinary claim you need to prove. 

At this point in time Anakin is filled with fear, rage and doubt, all emotions whoch have been shown to hinder characters throughout the mythos and emotions that were specifically noted to [i]"overwhelm"[/i] Anakin, per sourcebook quotes.

@O-Siri:

I can make a better case for Kenobi being hindered as he's a light sider and explicitly doesn't want to kill Anakin as per Nick Gillard and the Junior novelization, as well as a reasonable inference from the film itself, Kenobi certainly didn't go to Mustafar fired up with righteous conviction. Whereas Anakin, by contrast, was explicitly stated to be strengthened by his negative emotions and said anguish, as per the Junior Novelization.

And if you have been following the Luke vs Vader debate you probably know that Vader was strengthened by his own fear of Luke when he came on in bloodlust. So fear isn't a hindrance to dark side Anakin. And rage really? Do you really think rage would be a hindrance to a dark sider?


Anakin gets too much benefit of the doubt, it's not like Kenobi was entering the ring under optimal circumstances either. He was emotionally drained and weary from the recent turn of events and unlike Anakin, he can't draw on negative emotions to offset this.

I assume you are referring to the Gillard's "they matched each other perfectly" quote, he was just referring to Hayden and Mcgregor's on set performance as their own stuntmen, not the characters of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

I wasn't actually.

@O-Siri: Kind of pointless to bring up then if you aren't going to cite your sources. You said "Nick disagrees" which quote? 

If Kenobi was an offensive fighter, mutual knowledge wouldn't be enough. The more skilled more powerful fighter would still hold the edge and overwhelm him eventually. Kenobi's defensive skills were absolutely crucial in nullifying Anakin's offense.

I never implied otherwise,

@O-Siri: Nor did I imply either way. I can respond to your points while taking the opportunity to articulate my own. I think you could have figured that one out yourself. 



heck if you take a look back through my posting history

@O-Siri: Why would I? 

you'll find me reiterating this fact a great many times, however it has no bearing on what I stated, which was that the aspect of familiarity present was a more pivotal reason for Anakin's inability to overwhelm Kenobi.

@O-Siri The mutual advantage goes both ways, it helped but it's not as one-sided as everyone makes it out. Kenobi himself would have difficulty finding Anakin with his usual deft counterattacks because Anakin likewise could anticipate them, whereas Grievous and Maul couldn't. His near impenetrable defense, his amazing resiliency, and mental resolve were all critical factors too. If we're on the same page on that front, then good.

Potential can be present too. From then on he no longer had the potential to surpass Sidious, he could only aspire to be like Maul and Dooku, not what he was supposed to be.

The quote says "From then on he wasn't as strong as the emperor" which clearly can't be referring to potential, given Lucas has noted Anakin's potential is 2x that of Sheev, yet under this quote it'd be = to Sidious's. Moreover, to anyone with an IQ above 90 reading this, it's pretty obvious it's referring to power.

@O-Siri:

"He’s not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan’s cigarettes.
You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That’s what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

[size=13]Lucas uses "more powerful" and "as strong" synonymously. He's saying Anakin was potentially more powerful than Sidious and then Kenobi screwed it up. It's consistent with my concession on Anakin being more powerful than Yoda and Sidious but still below them both as a combatant as he lacks their mental make-up. A point you did not address the issue of fighting being more mental than physical which is what any exert in real life will tell you. Gillard clearly understands this, hence his comment on Anakin not being above Kenobi mentally and certainly by implication Yoda and Sidious mentally. [/size]

He had clarity, nowhere does it say he had total mastery.

Clarity of mind and emotional strength are directly linked to mastery.


@O-Siri: No it's not. It's like saying a depressive person possesses mental mastery whenever he achieves "clarity" from an opioid trip. The facade was temporary and easily shattered. He lost his false sense of confidence as early as the Sepratist massacre. 

So far you haven't proven Gillard was specific to Mustafar when he said Anakin lacked the mentality of a tier 9. 

I'm talking about intent here. People cling to Lucas's vague quote which is the only support for Anakin's parity with Sidious, when there are multiple interpretations of that quote. Intent provides clarity to multiple interpretations.

There's nothing "vague" about Lucas's quote, and it's not the only evidence we have to draw upon, just the one with no way of bending around it via arguing "muh canon policy" or something along those lines. Moreover, Yoda's line proves correct, as we see in the film, and as I noted prior when Lucas inserted that line, and when Yoda spoke it he could be referring to any number of plausible factors, such as the one's that appeared in the duel itself. Grasping onto it for the purposes of "intent" is flawed, an IU character statement with about 50 different interpretations doesn't speak to any kind of intent.

@O-Siri: It honestly does and don't think I don't know you've argued staunchly in favor of creator intent in the past when it suited Caedus being more powerful than everyone except Luke. Clearly, you see the value in intent in a debate regarding simplest and straightforward of interpretations and I think it's clear that while Lucas may have envisioned Anakin to be more powerful than the rest he isn't as formidable a combatant as Yoda and Sidious and can still be beaten by Kenobi, who clearly isn't by the same line of intent, on Yoda and Sidious's level. 

Incorrect, both Yoda and Kenobi witnessed Anakin's casual slaughtering of Cin Drallig and his students on the holorecording. They have a good gage for how Anakin has grown.

that Kenobi and Yoda witnessing Anakin's laid back performance means they're familiar with his full capabilities?

@O-Siri: Yes they saw Anakin perform at a greater level than before and thus should have a decent idea of what to expect in a confrontation. 

Jesus, the hell is that formatting?

Anyway, I'll respond in a bit.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Jesus, the hell is that formatting?

 Looking for new angles because you lack a decent argument?

Anyway, I'll respond in a bit.

Don't be like your brother. It's turning into a meme, I'll start posting inb4 after every response.

Kilius I thought we were cool, don't throw all this shade at me.

@O-Siri:

Not really. My original point was to provide reasonable doubt to the claim Anakin was hindered.

Your original statement presents the dragon as a reason Anakin may have been hindered, but you discounted it by citing Anakin's growing power:

Kilius's Goalpost Switching wrote:In the novel, there is the constant recurrence of the "star dragon" that eats away at his confidence. As of Knightfall he's seemingly destroyed it for good but after killing the separatists it's revealed it metaphorically left it's lingering venom in Anakin's system thus reawakening his doubts. On the other hand, the same passage states Anakin was continuing to grow more powerful even after Knightfall.

After I debunked the idea of these two points being in conflict:

Kilius's Goalpost Switching wrote:The only time the "star dragon's" hindered Anakin's ability to perform effectively was against Dooku when he was proactively suppressing his killer instinct. As of Mustafar he no longer has those mental reservations.

You decided too say "Well the dragon doesn't actually do anything", so no, that's a goalpost switch if I've ever seen one.

That's for you to prove. I don't need to prove Anakin wasn't hindered, it's an extraordinary claim you need to prove.

Which I do later, in the same post you're addressing.

I can make a better case for Kenobi being hindered as he's a light sider and explicitly doesn't want to kill Anakin as per Nick Gillard and the Junior novelization, as well as a reasonable inference from the film itself, Kenobi certainly didn't go to Mustafar fired up with righteous conviction.

Kenobi not wanting to kill Anakin isn't remotely comparable to Anakin being unbalanced by a variety of negative emotions, especially given Kenobi's style is about defence, ergo him not wanting to kill his former apprentice is at absolute best a minor factor, at worst a complete non factor. Moreover, Kenobi went to Mustafar to do what he had to do, regardless of whether it was his desire, hence why he does end up doing the equivalent of killing Anakin.

Whereas Anakin, by contrast, was explicitly stated to be strengthened by his negative emotions and said anguish, as per the Junior Novelization.

Quote?

And if you have been following the Luke vs Vader debate you probably know that Vader was strengthened by his own fear of Luke when he came on in bloodlust

Fear of a loved one dying =/= fear of somebody attacking you.

So fear isn't a hindrance to dark side Anakin. And rage really? Do you really think rage would be a hindrance to a dark sider?

It's explicitly noted to do so by a sourcebook.

Kind of pointless to bring up then if you aren't going to cite your sources. You said "Nick disagrees" which quote?

Nick wrote:"Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave."

This one.

Nor did I imply either way. I can respond to your points while taking the opportunity to articulate my own. I think you could have figured that one out yourself

Your points are things I already agreed to, and therefore of minimal importance to the debate.

Lucas uses "more powerful" and "as strong" synonymously.

No, he doesn't, they're in different sentences talking about different things. The two statements are inherently contradictory, so either Lucas is a dumbass who can't keep internal consistency within his own paragraph, or one statement is potential, the other is power, which fits with the terminology. Take your pick.

No it's not. It's like saying a depressive person possesses mental mastery whenever he achieves "clarity" from an opioid trip. The facade was temporary and easily shattered. He lost his false sense of confidence as early as the Sepratist massacre.

They possess mental mastery in that moment sure, which is what I'm arguing, that Anakin possessed complete mastery as of Knightfall, something not present during Mustafar.

It honestly does and don't think I don't know you've argued staunchly in favor of creator intent in the past when it suited Caedus being more powerful than everyone except Luke. Clearly, you see the value in intent in a debate regarding simplest and straightforward of interpretations and I think it's clear that while Lucas may have envisioned Anakin to be more powerful than the rest he isn't as formidable a combatant as Yoda and Sidious and can still be beaten by Kenobi, who clearly isn't by the same line of intent, on Yoda and Sidious's level.

Yes, I absolutely value intent, and have argued for it a variety of times, not only with Caedus. I just don't think this is the same, and far more up to interpretation than Caedus's quotes or anything else I've argued for on the basis of what the author's had in mind upon writing the material.

Yes they saw Anakin perform at a greater level than before and thus should have a decent idea of what to expect in a confrontation.

Stomping Cin doesn't peg him at a higher level than what he previously operated at.

Looking for new angles because you lack a decent argument?

If that were the case I wouldn't have responded, period. I just find your post disgusting to look at which is a shame considering the strong argumentation and writing.

Don't be like your brother. It's turning into a meme, I'll start posting inb4 after every response.

It's been a meme for ages, so IDRC anymore. And it's true is it not, I did actually respond?