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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:32 am
Yes, his feats and scaling beat the snot out of Malak's. By a country mile.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:33 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Nah, the quote holds up based on the attached screenshot. All statements within the source it comes from are official & should be taken at face value.

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 1d19c810
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:33 am
Holistically he is portrayed as demonstrably superior.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:39 am
Also Malak’s scaling absolutely shït’s on Kun’s, between dominating the Star Forge (sitting him enormously above the Exiles & the Rakata) & being considerably above MW Revan, who arelady has feats comparable to most of Kun’s best.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:41 am
@Tondemonai wrote:Nah, the quote holds up based on the attached screenshot. All statements within the source it comes from are official & should be taken at face value.

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 1d19c810

The attached screenshot doesn't matter, the entire description is limited knowledge. Not only does it not even know the source of Malak's power but it claims Malak was outraged by Revan's death when it was him who attacked him.

Worse yet, Cory stated that the quote no longer counts if new stats make Kun more powerful. Straight up self-destructing the quote's credibility outside of gameplay.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:42 am
EmperorCaedus wrote:Holistically he is portrayed as demonstrably superior.

I hope you're referring to Kun because Nihilus is more powerful than Malak yet is confirmed to be only on par with some of the sub-Kun ancient Sith.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:44 am
Tbh both Mando War Revan potentially scales above Nihilus via statements from Traya/Kreia, Malak has his own line of scaling for that too. If Nihilus is confirmed a peer of sub-Sadow Sith that just solidifies Malak’s scaling given he’s stated as far more powerful than Kun AND Nadd in the same statement.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:46 am
@Tondemonai wrote:Also Malak’s scaling absolutely shït’s on Kun’s, between dominating the Star Forge (sitting him enormously above the Exiles & the Rakata) & being considerably above MW Revan, who arelady has feats comparable to most of Kun’s best.

Kun scales enormously over the Exiles too, though. Lmao. The Exiles are demonstratably sub-Tulak Hord and Freedon Nadd, both of whom are sub-Ragnos who is sub-Kun.

MW Revan gets stomped by Exar Kun.
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:50 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:
EmperorCaedus wrote:Holistically he is portrayed as demonstrably superior.

I hope you're referring to Kun because Nihilus is more powerful than Malak yet is confirmed to be only on par with some of the sub-Kun ancient Sith.
I am talking about Malak.

Nihilus is definitely not > SF Malak, where did you get that from?
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:54 am
The entire description is explicit in stating he is far more powerful than them, it is vague in the reason he has so much power but not in the fact that he HAS the power. You’re grasping st straws to discredit a statement an authority on the matter has explicitly stated is valid & should be taken as official. At best you’re trying to argue other sources contradict it (despite an author confirming it’s legit), and at worst you’re ignoring official source material (a logical fallacy on your part). Concede & move on, you have no argument.

You’ll have to ether point out or provide where Cory said that, as he’s pretty firmly stating in the screenshot that the quote is official. Here’s the first part of that exchange if there’s any doubt that the above first screenshot is out of context or non-substantiation on the source material we’re discussing.

https://i.servimg.com/u/f22/20/13/70/63/5d79cc10.jpg

Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:57 am
Kun doesn’t have much (if anything) comparable to Revan’s Malachor V feat tbqh. Kun’s scaling over the Exiles put him at best considerably superior, compared to Malak essentially dwarfing them by dominating an immeasurably more powerful object of power than the one which drove them to madness. Malak’s scaling >> Kun’s.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:59 am
@Tondemonai wrote:Tbh both Mando War Revan potentially scales above Nihilus via statements from Traya/Kreia, Malak has his own line of scaling for that too. If Nihilus is confirmed a peer of sub-Sadow Sith that just solidifies Malak’s scaling given he’s stated as far more powerful than Kun AND Nadd in the same statement.

Traya never calls MW Revan > Nihilus. In fact the entire point of stopping Nihilus is that he'd become too powerful to stop.

Nihilus is > Malak, that is indisputable. SF Bastila gives Revan a good enough fight that she can expend extra energy simultaneously sealing shut a giant Rakatan security door. Yet SF Bastila admits that she is only as powerful as some of the most powerful Jedi Masters. Which includes Vrook Lamar and by association Kavar. Yet Darth Traya dominated and drained the powers of both of them at once as well as Zez-Kai Ell. Darth Traya is nowhere near as powerful as Darth Nihilus.

So Darth Nihilus >>> Darth Traya >> Zez Kai-Ell, Vrook Lamar and Kavar > each individually ~ SF Bastila ~ Powerful enough to give Revan a good fight > SF Malak.

With Nihilus confirmed to be sub- "Some of the Ancient Sith" who are headlined by the likes of Freedon Nadd, Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos and obviously the GOAT Exar Kun.

All of a sudden that unreliable article quote doesn't stand up sti
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:00 am
Hell Revan & Malak outright breaking Vitiate’s influence on them with their own power/strength of will an unreplicated feat in the mythos, & ludicrously impressive all things considered.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:06 am
Key word being “become,” Traya still regarded him as inferior to Revan (Chris Avellone even stared he believes Revan would defeat Nihilus, although which iteration he had in mind when making the claim wasn’t specified). Nihilus being > Malak is absolutely disputable, their disparity in feats is only so due to Malak lacking the technique & drive to drain planets like Nihilus has. Dominating the SF is arguably more impressive than anything Nihilus has done outright regardless, & there’s nothing indicating Bastila haven Revan a challenge despite Revan being hindered by the Forge’s nexus & Bastila amped by it, on top of a Revan fighting for an hour (per a statement on Revan’s fight through the SF) through Dark Jedi & the SF’s other defenses. At best she held him up.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:07 am
If nothing else Malak scales above Nihilus purely via the statement in question placing him “far” above those he is stated as a peer/inferior of.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:24 am
@Tondemonai wrote:The entire description is explicit in stating he is far more powerful than them, it is vague in the reason he has so much power but not in the fact that he HAS the power. You’re grasping st straws to discredit a statement an authority on the matter has explicitly stated is valid & should be taken as official. At best you’re trying to argue other sources contradict it (despite an author confirming it’s legit), and at worst you’re ignoring official source material (a logical fallacy on your part). Concede & move on, you have no argument. 

You’ll have to ether point out or provide where Cory said that, as he’s pretty firmly stating in the screenshot that the quote is official. Here’s the first part of that exchange if there’s any doubt that the above first screenshot is out of context or non-substantiation on the source material we’re discussing.  

https://i.servimg.com/u/f22/20/13/70/63/5d79cc10.jpg


The quote is both wrong and vague in two different ways, him stating that LFL confirmed it doesn't make it any more canonical than Tagg & Binks. Stop making appeals I'm already aware of and stop ignoring that the description is blatantly false in one regard and is vague repeatedly on another. You appealing to LF Licensing doesn't make your stance any stronger.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:36 am
@Tondemonai wrote:Key word being “become,” Traya still regarded him as inferior to Revan (Chris Avellone even stared he believes Revan would defeat Nihilus, although which iteration he had in mind when making the claim wasn’t specified). Nihilus being > Malak is absolutely disputable, their disparity in feats is only so due to Malak lacking the technique & drive to drain planets like Nihilus has. Dominating the SF is arguably more impressive than anything Nihilus has done outright regardless, & there’s nothing indicating Bastila haven Revan a challenge despite Revan being hindered by the Forge’s nexus & Bastila amped by it, on top of a Revan fighting for an hour (per a statement on Revan’s fight through the SF) through Dark Jedi & the SF’s other defenses. At best she held him up.

Traya never regarded Nihilus as inferior to Revan. She outright treats Nihilus as beyond their level of thinking. She prefers Revan because he is an individual. Nihilus is a slave to his power. That doesn't infer Revan > Nihilus at all.

Chris Avellone's Revan and the canonical one are two different things.

Darth Nihilus telekinetically pulling a fleet of ships out of Malachor's surface and through gravity wells too powerful for the engines of those ships dwarfs anything Malak has done. As does his ability to destroy Citadel Station with telekinesis. Furthermore, Nihilus has a galactic-scope of power which Malak can't hope to compare to. Nihilus holds his ship together through the stress of hyperspace travel and enemy capital ship fire through sheer will. Who cares about not being dominated by a space station?

There's no comparison.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:38 am
@Tondemonai wrote:If nothing else Malak scales above Nihilus purely via the statement in question placing him “far” above those he is stated as a peer/inferior of.
No it doesn't. The quote is both incorrect and vague on numerous matters and per its own author is liable to be rendered moot by gameplay stats and even questions its continued viability himself due to the original article not even being available anymore.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:50 am
By your own admission Nihilus is sub-Sadow, who’s arguably comparable to the likes of the Exiles, who I’ve repeatedly underlined are absolute fodder to Malak via his SF scaling. Again, you’re ignoring an official piece of source material on the basis that it doesn’t make sense to you, official licensing contradicts your conclusion & thus invalidates your stance. Concede & move on, my appeal to LFL cements my stance in canonicity & invalidates anything that wasn’t published afterward that outright contradicts the statement. You haven’t provided anything of the like, only claims that Nihilus’ & Kun’ feats are superior despite the fact that showings of power don’t supersede statements which explicitly claim one character is stronger than another, let alone far more powerful. Malak scales to Nihilus & Kun’s feats on account of being canonically superior, your stance still has no backing.

Regardless by your own admission Nihilus is stated as a peer to inferiors of Sadow, likely peers of the Exiles, who I remind you are fodder to Malak via his SF scaling. My stance remains unchallenged. The other points don’t have to hold up thanks to your own argument for Nihilus being < Kun. /thread.

You failed to present substantiation for your claims of the quote being subject to all that you say the author stated it is. All that has been presented here (& all I’m aware of) is him explicitly stating it’s accurate & that he stands by Malak > Kun. You continue to fail to present an effective counter to the source material, whether it’s too vague for you to accept is irrelevant as the quote is INCREDIBLY CLEAR that he is indeed Far More Powerful than Kun & Nadd, nothing you have presented contradicts that whatsoever.


Last edited by Tondemonai on Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:06 am; edited 1 time in total
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:06 am
Also apologies for the lack of directly quoting your posts, I’m on my phone atm lol. I do want to iterate that were it not canonical fact it makes far more sense for Kun & Nihilus to be > Malak, but that’s simply not reflected in the source material.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 9:27 am
Except the much more canonically demonstratable per the actual KotOR source material goes like this:

Kun > Ragnos > Nadd > Nihilus >> Traya ~ Malak >> Jedi Exiles.

Cory Herndon stated the following:

1.The quote is no longer valid because it was removed and whatever is stated in LFL reviewed material now is correct:

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 6560696-screenshot_20180815-074607_twitter
2.That the quote is liable to be replaced by any hard stats made in the RPGs since then:


@HernCo, Twitter wrote:If there exist hard, LFL-approved stats that say otherwise about Kun and Malak, follow those.
Link: https://twitter.com/HernCo/status/1029468543832608768?s=20


In case you were wondering, the KotOR:CG Saga Edition has Kun above Malak in Destiny Point and Sith stats:

KotOR: Campaign Guide wrote:

Darth Malak, Sith Magnus Statistics (CL 20)








Medium Human  Jedi  7/Jedi Knight  5/Sith Apprentice  4/Sith Lord  4

Destiny Points : 2; Force Points : 8; Dark Side Score : 15








KotOR: Campaign Guide wrote:

Exar Kun, Dark Lord of the Sith Statistics (CL 20)








Medium Human  Jedi  7/Jedi Knight  3/Sith Apprentice  5/Sith Lord  5

Destiny Points : 3; Force Points : 8; Dark Side Score : 15






Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:52 am
Lol, he concedes he's not an authority and that the stance is his opinion.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:55 am
Except he's repeating generic retcon rules. The article is outdated and has been replaced by far newer sources that don't depict that anymore.

But that's besides the point, Tondemonai asked for this.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:58 am
The rules are more about contradiction, as far as I'm aware.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:02 am
Which the KOTOR:CG does, it literally renders those articles moot, hence why they were removed. In fact the hardcap that KotOR 1&2 internal scaling puts on Malak, contradicts it outright.
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 2 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

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