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IG
IG
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 16:56
@HellfireUnit: How are they suspicious? Karpyshyn (clarifying the events of the game) said that the fight would be extremely long. Among (relatively) high-mid tiers, technical skill means jackshit because of raw power manifesting itself in aug. The scaling stands nonetheless, so stop denying Revan >> SF Malak >> Malak > Kun.
mr dinky
mr dinky

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:00
ILS wrote:
@mr dinky wrote:even if maul has superior combat skills it doesnt mean he is superior in the force which is ultimately what matters exar kun has superior feats to maul by far and revan scales above him its not that hard to grasp really
Do you think lightsaber combat is primarily decided by Force power, or some other attribute?
its decided by power in the force because even if you are more skilled beings with superior aug will win anytime of the week there are many examples of this happening where the person with superior force wins lightsaber duels
HellfireUnit
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:05
Bollocks IG. You are still giving examples of nothing but scalings. Why should Revan being > SF Malak matter in the first place? Why should Malak having greater power than Exar Kun matter? And tell me why Revan is > SF Malak? What makes you think he is? Because he defeated Malak? Explain the background then. Even if these are all true, why should Revan's strength in the Force matter against Maul? It has been confirmed that KOTOR Revan was LS Revan which means he didn't use DS powers. What kind of powers he is going to use against someone as strong as Maul that will overwhelm him?
IG
IG
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:07
Telekinesis, TP, etc. raw power is directly related to saber combat (see Zonakin vs Dooku) via augmentation. Maul has jackshit on Revan. I’d welcome a formal debate on this if you’d prefer (sorry for the shit reasoning here, on mobile and kinda busy).
HellfireUnit
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:19
We can argue here, later on. But I am still going to make points:

- What TP feats does Revan have that can used against Maul, care to explain?

- What TK feats does Revan have that can help him overwhelm Maul?

- What is that makes you think Revan has greater raw power and augmentation that will help him overcame Maul in the combat? Revan's physical feats are non-existent in the meantime Maul has quite impressive ones.

And it seems that you hold raw power higher than saber skill in the combat prowess, due to Augmentation. Right, then Grievous should be a non-factor when it comes to fighting. Maul has physical advantages both due to his species and the Force whereas KOTOR Revan is an aging man with skill nowhere near Maul's. But sure, he'll win due to augmentation.
The Lost
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:21
I agree with both @mr dinky and @ig regarding high tier lightsaber combat being almost entirely related to Force power. With that being the case:
Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.
―Dark Side Sourcebook

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.


With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.


He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.


I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.


He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.


"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"


"Yes, " I grunt.


"You hate me?"


"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.


But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.


I will not be able to deflect the next blow.
―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.


Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay.

--The Wrath of Darth Maul

So with that being said, I don't see how KoToR Revan wins this. Maul's augmentation from his own feats, as well as direct scaling from late Banite Sith, is above anything Revan has shown by this point in time. Maul was an emaciated, hallucinating, sleep deprived 17 y/o with an infected blaster wound in the above feat, which is the only reason given for why the fight stopped. His standard fighting level grew more powerful than the state he was in there by the time he was 22.
IG
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:24
@HellfireUnit: It’s called scaling.
HellfireUnit
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:27
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Bollocks brother. Respectfully bollocks.
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BoD (Away)
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:27
Backing Maul. Revan is noticeably more powerful but not by enough that he could quickly overwhelm Maul before Maul drives his saber through his guts.
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:28
@HellfireUnit wrote:Bollocks brother. Respectfully bollocks.
I see that Mimir quote.
mr dinky
mr dinky

Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:34
ILS wrote:I agree with both @mr dinky and @ig regarding high tier lightsaber combat being almost entirely related to Force power. With that being the case:
Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.
―Dark Side Sourcebook

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.


With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.


He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.


I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.


He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.


"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"


"Yes, " I grunt.


"You hate me?"


"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.


But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.


I will not be able to deflect the next blow.
―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.


Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay.

--The Wrath of Darth Maul

So with that being said, I don't see how KoToR Revan wins this. Maul's augmentation from his own feats, as well as direct scaling from late Banite Sith, is above anything Revan has shown by this point in time. Maul was an emaciated, hallucinating, sleep deprived 17 y/o with an infected blaster wound in the above feat, which is the only reason given for why the fight stopped. His standard fighting level grew more powerful than the state he was in there by the time he was 22.
rule of two sith have nothing on dominating the star forge or dominating minds of rataka or dominating minds of trillions all are nothing maul has been able to achieve and he gets bested by kenobi in tpm who is not really that good compared to beating on malak 8 times over and comparing to darth vitiate and resisting his lightning something that maul has never been able to do and gets bested many times by his eras reigning sith lord darth sidious

this is for azronger too


Last edited by mr dinky on Sun 12 Jan - 19:22; edited 1 time in total
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:35
and he gets bested by kenobi in tpm
Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 3363707401


comparing to darth vitiate and resisting his lightning
No he didn't. 



something that maul has never been able to do and gets bested many times by his eras reigning sith lord darth sidious

Sidious is confirmed > Vitiate.


Last edited by BoD on Sun 12 Jan - 17:52; edited 1 time in total
The Lost
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:39
BoD wrote:Backing Maul. Revan is noticeably more powerful but not by enough that he could quickly overwhelm Maul before Maul drives his saber through his guts.
If not Force power, what attribute is Maul more proficient in that would allow him to gut Revan in spite of a noticeable power difference?
mr dinky
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:41
revan as of kotor scales from exar kun and naga sadow
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 17:50
If not Force power, what attribute is Maul more proficient in that would allow him to gut Revan in spite of a noticeable power difference?

Saber skill, physicals, and more tactical thinking in a combat situation.
The Lost
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 18:03
BoD wrote:
[size=43]If not Force power, what attribute is Maul more proficient in that would allow him to gut Revan [/size][size=43]in spite of[/size][size=43] a noticeable power difference?[/size]

Saber skill, physicals, and more tactical thinking in a combat situation.
And you believe Revan's mastery of all lightsaber forms, echani battle tactics and long experience as an exceptional war general to be so deficient that he would lose to Maul even though he is the more powerful Force wielder? I'll grant you that Maul is a physical freak.
Master Azronger
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 19:10
@Tondemonai Apologies, I missed this earlier.

@Tondemonai wrote:Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely . . . Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle, destroying the Mandalore and ending the Mandalorian threat.
Source: Chronicles of the Old Republic


Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords wrote:Revan used the Trayus Academy to influence the battle above Malachor V, using its power to affect the tide of battle and corrupt others to the Sith.

These quotes say Revan drew upon the nexus to win the battle, not that he physically moved it.

"As with all the weapons of the Architects, the Star Forge proved a thing of great evil. A vast orbital shipyard that created machines of war, it drew energy not only from the local sun but the midichlorians of the Rakata, an idea first put to use by the Varlian Empire. The Star Forge proved deeply corrupting to them, and not long after its completion, the Rakata were overtaken by psychosis as its vile engines drained hungrily from them."


-Supernatural Encounters

Proof for this being canon?

Fair point. Maul hasn't really demonstrated a feat of similar fashion before so it's difficult to draw a direct comparison between feats, but the closest I could conceivably get to that is comparing a feat of Maul directly impacting another Force user with his own power (given a Force user's connection to the Force is much like a planet's nexus, and is in essence a personal nexus in the Force but is rarely equated as such since it's rare for a Force user's connection to be so potent as to be compared to a planetary or otherwise nexus in the Force), his best demonstration of which is likely his various opportune telekinetic attacks on Kenobi. Not the most direct comparison but there's not much else to compare it to, but if we accept that as correlative, it should scale Revan above Maul as I wouldn't consider Kenobi as having strength comparable to the nexus of Malachor V. Quote for Maul pressuring Sheev?

Firstly, you haven't presented proof of Revan manipulating a planetary nexus, so I have no reason to accept the feat as real. But even if for the sake of the argument I did, your tangent here is baseless. Show me something from the lore that indicates an environmental Force nexus can be equated to a person's Force spirit erecting a defensive Force barrier around its body to protect itself from telekinetic influence. Even were that the case, you've yet to prove Malachor V's nexus > TCW Kenobi.
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 19:13
I'll back Revan tentatively, though somebody like ILS could probably win me over to Maul's side with enough persuading.
Master Azronger
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 19:19
@Tondemonai wrote:
Azronger wrote:
@Tondemonai wrote:The entire description is explicit in stating he is far more powerful than them, it is vague in the reason he has so much power but not in the fact that he HAS the power. You’re grasping st straws to discredit a statement an authority on the matter has explicitly stated is valid & should be taken as official. At best you’re trying to argue other sources contradict it (despite an author confirming it’s legit), and at worst you’re ignoring official source material (a logical fallacy on your part). Concede & move on, you have no argument.

If I gave you a source saying TPM Maul > Vitiate, would you accept it just as readily?

No, because Vitiate has accolades, feats, & scaling that absolutely outstrip all of Maul's own. I was vehemently against accepting this quote for Malak >>Kun until analyzing some of his feats & scaling, as well as Revan's own, and even then I was hesitant until Cory endorsed it via twitter. His power being so vast that Bastila felt his approach from across the galaxy, dominating the SF, outright breaking Vitiate's influence on his mind unassisted (an unprecedented feat on Revan & Malak's part), and scaling above Darth Revan who has some  insane feats like implanting an entire language in the minds of thousands of Rakata, and of course the Malachor V feat. I didn't accept this statement readily at all, but it simply fits with continuity.

It seems you're one of those people who don't accept accolades unless they're backed by preexisting feats. And it seems the author's endorsement matters to you too. I disagree on both of these points, so there's naught we can do except squabble over methodology in this case, then.

Anyway, proof for Revan implanting a language inside thousands simultaneously? Why couldn't he have done it to them one by one?

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Master Azronger
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 19:20
IG (Exists) wrote:KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

Why?
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 19:22
Azronger wrote:
IG (Exists) wrote:KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

Why?
Because as of TPM, Maul has shown jackshit on the level of Malak or even Kun. As you've told tondemonai above, however, our methodologies differ, so there's no point in actually debating this because we'd end up "squabbling" over it.
mr dinky
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 19:23
ILS wrote:I agree with both @mr dinky and @ig regarding high tier lightsaber combat being almost entirely related to Force power. With that being the case:
Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.
―Dark Side Sourcebook

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.


With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.


He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.


I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.


He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.


"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"


"Yes, " I grunt.


"You hate me?"


"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.


But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.


I will not be able to deflect the next blow.
―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.


Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. 

--The Wrath of Darth Maul

So with that being said, I don't see how KoToR Revan wins this. Maul's augmentation from his own feats, as well as direct scaling from late Banite Sith, is above anything Revan has shown by this point in time. Maul was an emaciated, hallucinating, sleep deprived 17 y/o with an infected blaster wound in the above feat, which is the only reason given for why the fight stopped. His standard fighting level grew more powerful than the state he was in there by the time he was 22.
rule of two sith have nothing on dominating the star forge or dominating minds of rataka or dominating minds of trillions all are nothing maul has been able to achieve and he gets bested by kenobi in tpm who is not really that good compared to beating on malak 8 times over and comparing to darth vitiate and resisting his lightning something that maul has never been able to do and gets bested many times by his eras reigning sith lord darth sidious

this is for azronger too
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Revan vs Darth Maul - Page 4 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Maul

on Sun 12 Jan - 19:27
IG (Exists) wrote:
Azronger wrote:
IG (Exists) wrote:KOTOR Revan curbstomps this round lmao. His scaling from Kun and the SF are far beyond Maul.

Why?
Because as of TPM, Maul has shown jackshit on the level of Malak or even Kun. As you've told tondemonai above, however, our methodologies differ, so there's no point in actually debating this because we'd end up "squabbling" over it.

Do you think Kun or Malak could collapse a massive barracks or pressure 37 BBY Sidious?
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on Sun 12 Jan - 19:28
37 BBY Sidious had barely tapped into their reserves, and I do believe they could’ve collapsed the barracks.
Master Azronger
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on Sun 12 Jan - 19:29
ILS already addressed the reserves thing. And why do you think they can collapse the barracks?

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