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The Reborn Emperor
The Reborn Emperor
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 12:14 pm
Want to gauge everyone's opinion before writing a little piece here on why I think Jinn was still solidly above Kenobi as of TPM as a duelist.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 12:33 pm
Not that close. Bear in mind that AOTC Kenobi was still solidly below Kit, who likewise is < Qui-Gon.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 12:42 pm
he cant be much lower when he gave maul trouble like that.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 1:38 pm
Not quite close
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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December 5th 2019, 1:50 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:he cant be much lower when he gave maul trouble like that.
He was rage amped and Maul was surprised and overconfident.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 1:56 pm
its still a show of skill nonetheless. rage doesnt change how skillful he is. it changes his speed, mindset, strength, etc. i might even say that because of his dark sidedness, his skill mightve degraded, even thought he got stronger and faster, as is usually the case with dark side-turned jedi.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 1:59 pm
its still a show of skill nonetheless. rage doesnt change how skillful he is. it changes his speed, mindset, strength, etc. i might even say that because of his dark sidedness, his skill mightve degraded, even thought he got stronger and faster, as is usually the case with dark side-turned jedi.


Tell that to:


Anakin,
Luke,
Ezra,
Vader,
the GI,
Ventress,
and virtually every other Jedi and Sith. 
O-Siri
O-Siri

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 2:18 pm
Solidly below. I've changed my mind on them being level in skill. I thought the sparring session was evidence for their near parity but I've come to see that sparring isn't a good gage for that and mutual knowledge is a good way to extend a fight past the expiration date - this is definitely the case in the real world, as many fighters don't like to fight their sparring partners for that very reason. Even if you want to argue on the basis of author intent of the sparring session, the same author in later works implied Jinn was still the solid superior. 

The main thing is that Ataru was never Kenobi's forte. He's developed skill with it but he never had a natural talent for it unlike his main bread in butter in Soresu.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 3:00 pm
He’s faster and more talented, but Jinn’s strength would be a huge factor in Jinn’s favour. They’re fairly close and TPM Kenobi could certainly press Jinn but a victory is highly unlikely imo
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 3:15 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
its still a show of skill nonetheless. rage doesnt change how skillful he is. it changes his speed, mindset, strength, etc. i might even say that because of his dark sidedness, his skill mightve degraded, even thought he got stronger and faster, as is usually the case with dark side-turned jedi.


Tell that to:


Anakin,
Luke,
Ezra,
Vader,
the GI,
Ventress,
and virtually every other Jedi and Sith. 
have yet to see something that makes anakin more skilled by getting angry.
luke beat vader using power.
i honestly dont shit about ezra so i wont discuss.
vader fucks up every time he gets mad.
the GI is canon only, and actually, so is ezra, so i wont touch up on them.
ventress has nothing that says that her skill gets better with emotions either.
name some that get more skilled by getting angrier.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 3:21 pm
Ventress does get more skilled the angrier she gets
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 3:27 pm
Nowhere near close.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 4:19 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Nowhere near close.
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
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December 5th 2019, 4:54 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Nowhere near close.
The Witness
The Witness

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December 5th 2019, 5:35 pm
I think some people are underestimating Kenobi a bit. He's definitely not on Jinn's level but he isn't too far off IMO
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
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How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 5th 2019, 10:32 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
its still a show of skill nonetheless. rage doesnt change how skillful he is. it changes his speed, mindset, strength, etc. i might even say that because of his dark sidedness, his skill mightve degraded, even thought he got stronger and faster, as is usually the case with dark side-turned jedi.


Tell that to:


Anakin,
Luke,
Ezra,
Vader,
the GI,
Ventress,
and virtually every other Jedi and Sith. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:Anakin

Anakin was not rage amped if you are referencing the IH duel with Dooku, he was just not holding back anymore. 

@BreakofDawn wrote:Vader

Vader suffers severe hindrances when rage-induced, notable against Obi Wan on Mustafar

@BreakofDawn wrote:and virtually every other Jedi and Sith

Not true, Luke in the LotF series was enraged and it severely hampered his abilities, most notably with Jacen and Lumiya.
Jake
Jake
Level One
Level One

How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?  Empty Re: How close is TPM Kenobi to Qui-Gon in sabers?

December 6th 2019, 6:12 pm
Kenobi has support from the OOU sources;

Although he proved victorious against Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan presented a much greater challenge. Maul did, once again, seemingly defeat the Jedi, but Obi-Wan relied upon the power of the Force to vanquish the Sith warrior.

Star Wars: Episode I: Insider’s Guide

So it was with extra confidence that Darth Maul confronted the Jedi again on Naboo, now wielding his deadly double-bladed weapon. The Jedi Master fought valiantly, but it was the young Padawan that challenged Maul the most.

Star Wars Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns: Darth Maul Databank

Their final stands are also far more favourable to Obi-Wan, with the sources on Jinn all noting that he was still no match. But not Kenobi;

He separated the two, and dispatched the older man. But in doing so, he unleashed a fury in Obi-Wan, and was hard-pressed to defend himself against the young Jedi’s lightning-fast lightsaber.

Star Wars Battlegrounds: Clone Campaigns: Darth Maul Databank

The Episode I Insider’s Guide also flatly states that Kenobi is faster and has greater stamina than Qui-Gon, so Obi-Wan is faster, has greater reserves, and challenges Maul more. Despite this, Obi-Wan, Dooku, Sidious, and Jinn himself stress that the gap between them is pretty huge, with Kenobi scoffing at the idea that he’s even comparable, so there has to be a balance between the IU and OOU.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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December 6th 2019, 6:53 pm
Kenobi also got yeeted off a platform then rage amped, which surprised Maul with its ferocity and would have pressed him more until he adapted. Doesn't mean base Obi-Wan ~ Qui-Gon.
O-Siri
O-Siri

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December 6th 2019, 7:05 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:He’s faster and more talented, but Jinn’s strength would be a huge factor in Jinn’s favour. They’re fairly close and TPM Kenobi could certainly press Jinn but a victory is highly unlikely imo
That's probably about right. I can see a case for Kenobi being more athletically gifted, but Jinn has a solid edge in technical skills and experience.
The Reborn Emperor
The Reborn Emperor
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

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December 6th 2019, 10:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Thanks Jake.

I don't think there has to be a balance between the OOU and IU sources. The OOU sources can support a solid gap between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in that Kenobi giving Maul more of a challenge than Qui-Gon is predicated on a number of circumstances that the sources don't separate from the description; in fact, the last one you posted even says that Kenobi's rage was the leading cause.

So then it's not really arguable to say that the OOU sources paint a different picture since they don't discount the actual circumstances of the fight and don't contradict their implications either. In which case by an aggregate, Qui-Gon is still solidly superior to Kenobi.
Jake
Jake
Level One
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December 7th 2019, 3:51 pm
Seems like an unnecessary post. Simply saying ‘the circumstances are different’ doesn’t really go against anything there, I’m fully aware that sources take into account the different mental/physical states. But if they are accounting for Kenobi’s, they’re accounting for Jinn’s too, so you would have me believe that Obi-Wan’s positives bridge this hypothetical large gap between himself and Qui-Gon, and then exceed it to such an extent that he’s a far greater challenge? I’m not buying it. 

Kenobi and Jinn are both above base when they attack Maul - only Obi-Wan is running on empty reserves from the start, and his skill is hindered - they both take Maul off guard - only against Obi-Wan Maul is simultaneously draining his opponent and replenishing himself via channeling. We can autistically list and analyse all of the circumstances of their final fights and there’s no advantage that Kenobi has that makes him better than Jinn. He arguably has more going against him. 

Would a rage amp take exhausted Kenobi, who is vastly inferior to his base self, who is supposedly solidly below base Jinn, to far above a fresher Jinn who is fighting more ferociously, and better than ever before? I really don’t think the sources above look at it that way.
The Witness
The Witness

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December 7th 2019, 4:15 pm
I have a good feeling that Luca's view on this is a lot more simpler than what everyone is making it out to be. I think for Lucas he see's Kenobi the superior one as he beat Maul and Qui Gon didn't. Just my 2 cents
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