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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 1st 2020, 7:42 am
That never happened. I just said that since there technically is no time limit, try to respond within 3 weeks.,
Dolph
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 1st 2020, 12:04 pm
Thanks for restating what I said  SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 1289255181
Dolph
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 3rd 2020, 7:21 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

CINNEGAR IS STILL UNQUANTIFIABLE


For Kun to accomplish this feat, he’d have to (from orbit) sense every single person with scanning tech, then he’d have to TP all of them to the point where they’d be incapable of noticing a massive battleship attacking a hangar. Given that (say) 80% probably would live in the only major city that covers a majority of the planet, that’s still a billion people. Then we’d have to assume that (somehow) less than .0001 percent of the population of all of Cinnagar possessed scanning tech. And then we’d still have around 10000 people, a number that’s still at least ten times greater than the amount that Caedus was tired with, to the point where a single Mando is able to take him out. The amount of mental gymnastics required to lowball this feat to < Caedus is far too much for an SS. 

-IG

All those scans show me, is the entire population of Cinnegar. Where did 80% come from? Where did .0001% come from? It seems to me that these are arbitrary numbers that you’ve come up with on the spot. In fact, you know you made those numbers up, because you say “80% probably would live…” and “ we’d have to assume that (somehow) less than .0001 percent…”. In other words, you still can’t quantify this feat at all. 

EXAR KUN'S SITH SPELL

Another thing… you do realize that most feats involving Force Abilities are usually based on the user’s Force  Power, right? Your claim here that Sith Spells are an exception has no basis in fact nor logic, as logic would dictate that one’s use of the force (or a feat) is directly related to the character’s power, mastery, and effort. Kun’s effort shown in the Senate Hall is utterly minimal, yet the scale is massive, as the Senate numbers in at least the ten thousands. Caedus’ effort shown on Fondor is massive, yet his scale is minimal, evidenced by the amount of technicians. 


Something to note here is the fact that TOTJ is one of the oldest additions to the EU, and pretty much all esoteric techniques are referred to as “spells”, “sorcery”, or “sorcerous ways”, so declaring certain abilities are sorcery and certain others aren’t is pointless. In the end, nomenclature and categorizations are useless, as you’ve yet to show me how “sith spells” are essentially cheat codes that can’t be compared to other powers (especially ones they replicate). In the end, Exar Kun was controlling the actions of the crowd akin to telepathic domination, it should be treated as such, and is consequently comparable to Caedus vs a room of Fondorian technicians.

-IG

Sure, it is based on a user’s force power. But the reason you included this feat anyway is to create a link between Caedus and Kun, yet you cannot draw comparisons because the feats being compared isn't even of the same ability. Also in the TOTJ companion piece, telepathy is mentioned numerous times, I’ve grabbed one instance of it being used:(link ). You claim that nomenclatures are useless, but telepathy was mentioned numerous times in the companion book, yet Kun’s feat is still referred to as a “sith spell”. 

LUKE VS LUMIYA COMPARISONS ARE POINTLESS

The Luke vs Lumiya fight was brought up to compare to the Luke vs Caedus. Upon reflection this shouldn’t even be talked about- because yes Luke is offset in both these instances- but they are totally different hindrances in totally different books. They have nothing to do with each other and it shouldn’t be up for debate whether these can be used to draw comparisons to one another.

REGARDING CAEDUS' TP

Let’s break this down. Caedus first imbues 100 commanders with rage, said rage then creates a superconducting loop that intensifies with each pass (not too different from Mace’s Vaapad amp). The rage is needed to confuse the shield technicians on Fondor, so  Caedus discharges all that energy as well as his own just to compel a "room" of people to do his bidding, evidenced by the fact that he tried to “push his way into the minds of strangers”. This tires him so much that he isn’t capable of standing up to a single Mandalorian afterwards.

-IG

This is just blatantly wrong. Caedus' TP in Revelation is something that is so circumstantial it cannot be used as an actual 1:1 comparison to Kun. 

Previously in Revelation, Luke casts an illusionary feat that Caedus is in awe at, and describes it as beyond human comprehension (link ). Note that this is the same Caedus who spends 5 years away from the NJO studying esoteric abilities (link ), and Caedus learned force abilities that were unknown to even Luke himself (link ). So directly before the events of the TP, Caedus was paranoid that Luke would trick him again via illusion, or even other means (link ). This is just a bit of background information that happens directly before the feat, which shows how paranoid Caedus was. 

Now let’s talk about the feat in question. How you and the people you’ve talked with came to the conclusion that Caedus was amping himself is utterly ridiculous: 


The adrenaline and pure white rage looping back to him from the individual commanders made his throat tighten. It was almost like a back-pressure effect, that the passion for the battle that he was channelling into them gained power and momentum, and syphoned back into him as a changed and magnified thing that he felt he had to vent from his chest or scream.

He was out of breath. He hoped nobody noticed. It might have looked as if he were panicking…

His lungs demanded air. The cumulative effect of his commanders' heart-pounding aggression needed out now. He could no longer pick out the individual crew and their stations around him in the Anakin Solo, just a complex tapestry of emotions, and that was the state of near blindness that he needed to push his way into the minds of strangers many kilometers away on the planet beneath.

As Caedus was completing the feat, Caedus was overloading himself due to imbuing his commanders with rage. There is a specific line I’d like to point out- Caedus felt a “back-pressure effect”, which segways into my next point. Caedus describes the buildup of energy, but have you considered that said energy can be negative energy as well? The most logical way it can be described, is that the excess of negative energy is overloading Caedus, then once he releases it, the absence of energy exhausts him to a point that he can’t even complete basic human functions. Yea that’s an amp alright…

JACEN VS AURRA


If that’s true, then it means that Jacen can move Dovin Basals in Tempest. Then why does he struggle to paralyze Aurra Sing in the same book?  The latter is caught unaware, yet he needs all his energy, without any distractions whatsoever to keep her in stasis.  And when she does break free, she demonstrates parity, if not superiority, to Jacen by overpowering him in a bladelock. Moving a black hole becomes less special when everyone above Aurra Sing theoretically scales above it. Furthermore, characters that scale vastly above Aurra like Mace Windu have proclaimed their inability to TK a train, disproving this comparison entirely. Perhaps TK isn’t an accurate proxy for power as you claim it is, or perhaps Jacen doesn’t scale above Kyp. They both cannot be true. 

-IG

First off this is so vastly pre-prime (the third installment out of nine books)

This fight is so circumstantial, that it so obviously cannot be used as an indicator for anything. 

At the beginning of the encounter, Jacen literally TP dominates her from the start (link ). You claim it required all of his energy, but how is that a bad thing? At this point you are basically saying that is took all of Jacen's energy to absolutely dominate Aurra. Furthermore, she was unable to free herself from Jacen TP domination, which is a slap in the face to there being any sort of parity like you claim. 

Here is the full fight for reference (words in bold are the important bits): 
Spoiler:
Her thumb twitched.

The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind, watching in horror as she pitched the detonator toward the refresher where Allana was hid-ing.

Jacen's heart dropped through the bottom of his stom-ach. His arm shot out without conscious thought, and the detonator floated into his hand almost before he realized he had summoned it.

Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.

"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."

She kicked again.

"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealinig his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his Hghtsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.

A fiery blur continued to blind one eye, and his sight in the other was still splashed with crimson blotches. But he could see clearly enough to be worried. Sing had landed near the refresher where Allana was hiding-close enough to fulfill her contract, if she was willing to risk Jacen attacking her from behind.

Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.

That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenet Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."

Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.

Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

But Allana suddenly appeared on the other side of Sing, charging forward with her dark brows lowered and what looked like a small recording rod clutched in her hands.


You claim Aurra is superior to Jacen via overwhelming him in a bladelock, but you are ignoring the basic context and circumstances of the encounter. Firstly, Aurra's initial attack was while Jacen had to stop the thermal detonator from killing his daughter, Allana, and so Aurra had a bunch of free hits to land on him as a result. Secondly, Jacen ragdolls Aurra with the force again (holding his “force shove”) and is about to hit Aurra with a barrage of Force lightning, but suddenly, Allana appears. At this point Aurra takes advantage of the distractions that Jacen has yet again. 
-
The encounter actually is very akin to Caedus vs Luke in Inferno,  Jacen filling in for Luke. Luke in Inferno was distracted at the sight of Caedus torturing his son, Ben. Jacen was also distracted by the presence of his daughter Allana mid-fight on more than one occasion. Luke has previously dominated Caedus with the force, and Jacen has also dominated Aurra with the force twice during the encounter. The gap in the force is about roughly the same also, Luke and Jacen establishing clear superiority over their foes. The only reason the opposition was able to keep up was due to a myriad of environmental factors that have nothing to do with superiority over the opponent. 

JACEN'S OPINIONS

Karen Traviss in another interview claims that Jacen has an “excessively high opinion of himself”, thus contradicting this quote entirely. 

-IG

Having an excessively high opinion of oneself doesn’t preclude the opinion from being correct, just that Jacen has a huge ego, and that his huge ego is founded in truth according to the authors and novel itself. Let’s examine the scene in which Traviss was reacting to:

I'm more powerful than any of you.
It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true. And, as history repeated itself because it had no other choice, Jacen was more powerful than any of them except Luke.

And Traviss' reaction itself: 

How does a clever, morally aware man go down the path that Jacen does? By self-delusion and self- justification. Jacen already has a high opinion of his powers and judgment, and that’s not misplaced: the man is good at his work.

So, in the novel itself, Jacen muses he is the most powerful bar Luke, which the novel itself agrees with. The novel goes as far to say “except Luke” to take what they are saying with no hyperbole, and seriously, because no one would actually believe Jacen is more powerful than Luke as early as Bloodlines. In other words, the reason the novel says this was to explain that what Jacen believes is very true. Traviss reaction only goes to cement what Jacen and the novel believes is true. 

This is only to show that Jacen is superior to everyone in the council as early as Bloodlines, thus Kyp Durron scaling can still be used, in which he scales over the Dovin Basal feat established in the last post, something that you have yet to prove Revan can compare to.

LUKE IS WEAK?

We’ve already established how weak Luke was at this point, demonstrating that Caedus is capable of beating somebody that seriously struggles with the likes of Lumiya. This doesn’t demonstrate any superiority to Revan, as contending with Luke isn’t a particularly accurate proxy for power, and Jacen doesn’t scale over Kyp. Fighting a force that’s equivalent to that of Bloodlusted/Hindered Luke and coming out on top isn’t impressive.

Are you seriously telling me being better then the most powerful character in the mythos, Luke Skywalker, and being above that is a bad thing? You have yet to actually prove how Luke is even hindered, as I have addressed him as bloodlusted. Sure you could argue he wasn’t on par with his usual self as a result of this bloodlust, but to argue that Luke is as hindered as himself fighting the person who he thought killed his wife Mara, and Luke impied to have deep emotional shocks from her death, is plain ridiculous. 

FUNNY THING I FOUND

Here's how I see it, and I doubt I’m alone on this. Giving Jacen Kyp's feats and accomplishments is an admission of a simple fact--Caedus has none.  If he did, you’d have found something relevant in one of the 9 books that are literally written about him, or perhaps the countless books featuring Jacen Solo before that.  So many feats of his across the NJO, DN, and LOTF, so many that his RT required two parts. So many feats, yet you still need Kyp Durron as a crutch to get by, with a comparison that probably doesn't work too. This is a declaration of defeat.  A declaration that all the memes that surfaced around Caedus' failures, weakness and limitations are legitimate and not just trolling.   

I legitimately can’t tell if this is trolling or not. This is a gem I found in IG’s last post. In the next paragraph, I will use IG’s paragraph outline, just replacing Caedus and Kyp with Revan and Kun. This will point out the double standard and I bet the judges will get a good chuckle out of this as well:

Here's how I see it, and I doubt I’m alone on this. Giving Revan Exar Kun’s feats and accomplishments is an admission of a simple fact--Revan has none.  If he did, you’d have found something relevant in the whole game centered around him. So many feats of his across over the course of the game. So many feats, yet you still need Exar Kun as a crutch to get by, with a comparison that probably doesn't work too. This is a declaration of defeat.  A declaration that all the memes that surfaced around Revan' failures, weakness and limitations are legitimate and not just trolling.

THE GAPING HOLE

As the killing blow, IG has one gaping flaw in his argument- where is the “Malak quote”? He never provides evidence or even mentions it beyond a one-liner. It wouldn’t be a problem if it was a one-off, but his entire argument rests on the use of this “Malak quote” (that is how he refers to it in his first post). As far as I know, Exar Kun and Revan aren’t connected in any way, shape, or form. So the fact that he is using Exar Kun feats in a Revan thread is… jarring to say the least. The fact that he only barely mentions anything about Revan in his last post, goes to show that the heavy reliance of this “Malak quote”. Him providing the quote in the very last post would be… egregious at best. Assuming the judge approached this debate as if I had no knowledge of either character- or related characters, this is a gaping wound in the argument of the opposition.

CONCLUSION



  • Exar Kun’s Cinnegar TP feat is unquantifiable and doesn’t relate to Revan in any way
  • Exar Kun’s Sith Spell is irrelevant and cannot be compared to Caedus
  • The Luke vs Lumiya comparison is irrelevant due to not even being the same hindrance
  • Caedus’ TP feat is riddled with circumstances and thus cannot be used to compare to anything
  • Jacen vs Aurra is riddled with circumstances, and when it’s clear, Jacen is seen as the clear superior
  • You haven’t established even a slight connection from Exar Kun to Revan, rendering all of your arguments null


You have no pieces left on the board, and your arguments are unsalvageable. Between the two feats he has brought up, one of them is unquantifiable, and the other isn’t even the right kind of ability to make a comparison from. And going further, he hasn’t even established any sort of connection between Exar Kun and Revan. Meanwhile, Caedus scales above Kyp Durron who has one of the best environmental feats in the mythos (Dovin Basal) and sits on a hefty scaling chain that puts him on par with Luke Skywalker. All my points have stood, while you have no pieces on the board. 

Character Count: 7438/7500

REVAN IS DEAD. REVAN IS DEAD. REVAN IS DEAD.


Last edited by EmperorCaedus on March 3rd 2020, 9:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added character count)
Dolph
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 3rd 2020, 8:33 pm
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 3rd 2020, 8:53 pm
Why was I tagged three times?
Dolph
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 3rd 2020, 9:16 pm
Because you posted on thread
KingofBlades
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 3rd 2020, 9:25 pm
Interesting that you waited until your closing statements to point out that IG had forgotten to provide a critical source(though I'd wager everyone on the forum has seen the quote). Seems like a gotcha tactic to me
The lord of hunger
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 4th 2020, 12:00 am
nice adressing of points EC
IG
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on March 7th 2020, 2:38 pm
Section I - Cinnagar is Bigger than New York



All those scans show me, is the entire population of Cinnegar. Where did 80% come from? Where did .0001% come from? It seems to me that these are arbitrary numbers that you’ve come up with on the spot. In fact, you know you made those numbers up, because you say “80% probably would live…” and “ we’d have to assume that (somehow) less than .0001 percent…”. In other words, you still can’t quantify this feat at all. 



The scans thoroughly detail how Cinnagar is (A) the only major settlement on Cinnagar, and (B) how it covers a majority of the planet. I don’t have to give an exact number, as I’ve established a fair lower bound here. If we’re to take examples from reality here, New York City had a population of around 8.623 million people as of 2017. The full state had a population of 19.59 million, meaning NYC makes up a whopping 44% of the state population. To contrast the area, on the other hand, NYC’s area is 302.6 square miles, yet the full state is 54,556 square miles, meaning NYC’s area is only around .55% of the full state. Except NY state has more than one major city, unlike Empress Teta. If .55% area in a state’s major city is 44% of its population, imagine Cinnagar compared to Empress Teta. The only major city consists of over 50% of the planet’s area. There’s no conceivable way that the population consists of anything less than a vast majority of the population. 


Kun manages to make it so that literally none of the scanning technicians in this city are able to see a massive battleship blowing up a hangar. Consider that scanners are similar in role to Air Traffic Control in the real world, evident from the scan, which points towards this being true. Per the FAA, “As of the end of FY2018, the FAA air traffic controller total was 14,695, an increase from 14,481 at the end of FY2017”. The U.S population at the time was 327.2 Million people, meaning that the percentage of ATC people in the U.S is give or take .004 percent of the population. Meaning if we apply my (rather low, actually) estimate of around a billion people living in Cinnagar, we establish that there are approximately 58000 scanning techs in Cinnagar, something that far outstrips Caedus’ failed feat against some scanning techs.


Therefore the idea that Kun’s feat is at least comparable, if not far, far superior to that of Jacen’s TP still stands. 


Section II - Caedus is Useless Shite (Sorry DC)



The Luke vs Lumiya fight was brought up to compare to the Luke vs Caedus. Upon reflection this shouldn’t even be talked about- because yes Luke is offset in both these instances- but they are totally different hindrances in totally different books. They have nothing to do with each other and it shouldn’t be up for debate whether these can be used to draw comparisons to one another.



Except there’s no counter here for what I’ve said, that Luke was more hindered against Caedus than Lumiya. 



This is just blatantly wrong. Caedus' TP in Revelation is something that is so circumstantial it cannot be used as an actual 1:1 comparison to Kun. 


Previously in Revelation, Luke casts an illusionary feat that Caedus is in awe at, and describes it as beyond human comprehension (link ). Note that this is the same Caedus who spends 5 years away from the NJO studying esoteric abilities (link ), and Caedus learned force abilities that was unknown to even Luke himself (link ). So directly before the events of the TP, Caedus was paranoid that Luke would trick him again via illusion, or even other means (link ). This is just a bit of background information that happens directly before the feat, which shows how paranoid Caedus was. 


Now let’s talk about the feat in question. How you and the people you’ve talked with came to the conclusion that Caedus was amping himself is utterly ridiculous: 


As Caedus was completing the feat, Caedus was overloading himself due to imbuing his commanders with rage. There is a specific line I’d like to point out- Caedus felt a “back-pressure effect”, which segways into my next point. Caedus describes the buildup of energy, but have you considered that said energy can be negative energy as well? The most logical way it can be described, is that the excess of negative energy is overloading Caedus, then once he releases it, the absence of energy exhausts him to a point that he can’t even complete basic human functions. Yea that’s an amp alright…



Obviously the energy doesn't impact Caedus positively when it funnels back through him. It's derived from emotions that are inherently negative. But that on its own doesn't indicate the energy wasn't vital to the act, as the novel states. The same negative energy giving Caedus trouble is being used to impact the Fondorians in the way Caedus needs, as  "that's the state of near blindness he needed to push down to the Fondorians below", to paraphrase. Therefore it is an external amp that’s benefitting Caedus here. While he is tired while obtaining the amp, that doesn’t change the fact that he was amped. At best, the amp was mitigated by his prior exhaustion. At worst it put him in a state vastly exceeding his base self. The quote credits Caedus' exhaustion solely due to the act itself, not any link established with the commanders, meaning that the idea Caedus was hindered by aforementioned link is completely disingenuous.


Kun, to contrast, is able to perform a similar action in blinding scanners on a scale a thousandfold. Where Caedus is exhausted by invading the minds of a few technicians, Kun is able to blind tens of thousands of scanners with complete ease. Kun is far more powerful than Caedus, evidently shown by their respective telepathic performances.



First off this is so vastly pre-prime (the third installment out of nine books)


This fight is so circumstantial, that it so obviously cannot be used as an indicator for anything. 


At the beginning of the encounter, Jacen literally TP dominates her from the start (link ). You claim it required all of his energy, but how is that a bad thing? At this point you are basically saying that is took all of Jacen's energy to absolutely dominate Aurra. Furthermore, she was unable to free herself from Jacen TP domination, which is a slap in the face to there being any sort of parity like you claim. 




This fight being pre-prime is absolutely besides the point. Your claim is explicitly that Jacen Solo, as of Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines is more powerful than Kyp Durron, as of the same time. Tempest is the third novel as you’ve already stated. Bloodlines is the second. Meaning that my claims hold in this instance because Jacen as of Tempest > Jacen as of Bloodlines > Kyp Durron as of Bloodlines


Jacen is said to have “taken her [Aurra] by surprise” in that fight. Jacen still has to hold all of his concentration to do this. Taking somebody by surprise and dominating them while requiring all of your strength to maintain this is not an indication of superiority. Savage Opress takes Ventress and Dooku by surprise as the two duel, then the pair struggle to free themselves from his telekinetic grip. This is not at all evident of superiority. We know Dooku at the time is superior to Savage, meaning that the idea that Jacen is this much superior to Aurra via their telepathic duel is null and void. 



You claim Aurra is superior to Jacen via overwhelming him in a bladelock, but you are ignoring the basic context and circumstances of the encounter. Firstly, Aurra's initial attack was while Jacen had to stop the thermal detonator from killing his daughter, Allana, and so Aurra had a bunch of free hits to land on him as a result. Secondly, Jacen ragdolls Aurra with the force again (holding his “force shove”) and is about to hit Aurra with a barrage of Force lightning, but suddenly, Allana appears. At this point Aurra takes advantage of the distractions that Jacen has yet again. 
-
The encounter actually is very akin to Caedus vs Luke in Inferno,  Jacen filling in for Luke. Luke in Inferno was distracted at the sight of Caedus torturing his son, Ben. Jacen was also distracted by the presence of his daughter Allana mid-fight on more than one occasion. Luke has previously dominated Caedus with the force, and Jacen has also dominated Aurra with the force twice during the encounter. The gap in the force is about roughly the same also, Luke and Jacen establishing clear superiority over their foes. The only reason the opposition was able to keep up was due to a myriad of environmental factors that have nothing to do with superiority over the opponent. 




So you claim Jacen cannot multitask, something evident of his incapability in combat. Jacen not being able to multitask in this fight may lead to his death, as Revan is capable of using the force offensively as well as while attacking with a saber, a detail that will prove fatal to Jacen, if he’s so incapable of using the force as you claim. 


As for holding his “force shove”, Jacen is described as having “not surprise[d] her [Aurra] as he had hoped”. Meaning that while it wasn’t as surprising as Jacen had hoped, it was a surprise nonetheless. Jacen’s initial domination weakens Aurra to the degree in which it is difficult for her to resist. Refer to my points upon the pair’s telepathic duel above for why a surprise domination and holding it is not a showing of superiority. Whereas in the only times we can see them match in a somewhat fair comparison, Aurra is able to overwhelm Jacen in bladelock. While we can attribute part of this to her leverage, the parity is undeniable--Jacen Solo and Aurra Sing have similar levels of power, evident from their augmentation against one another. If Jacen and Aurra are close in power right now, then anybody above Jacen as of now, or anybody above Aurra is far more powerful than Kyp Durron. Meaning that PT Mid-tiers such as Aayla Secura, or NJO masters such as Mara Jade are capable of manipulating dovin basals. Yet this is false. In Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice, Mara fights evenly with Caedus, yet she’s exhausted by lowering a cave. 



Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of the tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the force that made her breathless.



Meaning that a superior iteration of Jacen is nearly matched by somebody that’s left “breathless” by bringing down a tunnel. This is a definite contradiction in the Kyp scaling, as somebody capable of manipulating dovin basals struggling with a cave is ridiculous.


You’ve forgotten to refute my point of Kyp jobbing similar to Luke.



Having an excessively high opinion of oneself doesn’t preclude the opinion from being incorrect, just that Jacen has a huge ego, and that his huge ego is founded in truth according to the authors and novel itself. Let’s examine the scene in which Traviss was reacting to:



Jacen’s “excessively high opinion” of himself is literally saying that said opinion is incorrect. Excessive literally means that it’s too high, meaning that said opinion is by default incorrect. 



So, in the novel itself, Jacen muses he is the most powerful bar Luke, which the novel itself agrees with. The novel goes as far to say “except Luke” to take what they are saying with no hyperbole, and seriously, because no one would actually believe Jacen is more powerful than Luke as early as Bloodlines. In other words, the reason the novel says this was to explain that what Jacen believes is very true. Traviss reaction only goes to cement what Jacen and the novel believes is true. 


This is only to show that Jacen is superior to everyone in the council as early as Bloodlines, thus Kyp Durron scaling can still be used, in which he scales over the Dovin Basal feat established in the last post, something that you have yet to prove Revan can compare to.




Jacen’s musings are evidently disproven by his relativity to Mara as of Sacrifice. Karen Traviss claims Jacen goes down his path by “self delusion”. This inherently shows that he’s wrong about many things. He’s deluding himself of his own power and judgement, evident by the quote I cited, which claims Jacen has a very high opinion of himself and your quote, which claims he deludes himself. 


Section III - Concessions Accepted



Are you seriously telling me being better then the most powerful character in the mythos, Luke Skywalker, and being above that is a bad thing? You have yet to actually prove how Luke is even hindered, as I have addressed him as bloodlusted. Sure you could argue he wasn’t on par with his usual self as a result of this bloodlust, but to argue that Luke is as hindered as himself fighting the person who he thought killed his wife Mara, and Luke impied to have deep emotional shocks from her death, is plain ridiculous. 



The quote you linked about Luke’s shock is about his fight with Caedus. You’ve cited to me why Luke is hindered. You’ve not refuted a single of my points as to why he’s as hindered as he is against Lumiya, so I’ll take this as another concession. 



As the killing blow, IG has one gaping flaw in his argument- where is the “Malak quote”? He never provides evidence or even mentions it beyond a one-liner. It wouldn’t be a problem if it was a one-off, but his entire argument rests on the use of this “Malak quote” (that is how he refers to it in his first post). As far as I know, Exar Kun and Revan aren’t connected in any way, shape, or form. So the fact that he is using Exar Kun feats in a Revan thread is… jarring to say the least. The fact that he only barely mentions anything about Revan in his last post, goes to show that the heavy reliance of this “Malak quote”. Him providing the quote in the very last post would be… egregious at best. Assuming the judge approached this debate as if I had no knowledge of either character- or related characters, this is a gaping wound in the argument of the opposition.



As KoB said, “Interesting that you waited until your closing statements to point out that IG had forgotten to provide a critical source (though I'd wager everyone on the forum has seen the quote). Seems like a gotcha tactic to me”. It’s taken as a concession that you accept Malak > Kun based on the fact you ignored it for your first three posts. Good try though!



Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak wrote:"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"



Your ignorance of the quote’s omission is taken as a concession 





Conclusion



You have no pieces left on the board, and your arguments are unsalvageable. Between the two feats he has brought up, one of them is unquantifiable, and the other isn’t even the right kind of ability to make a comparison from. And going further, he hasn’t even established any sort of connection between Exar Kun and Revan. Meanwhile, Caedus scales above Kyp Durron who has one of the best environmental feats in the mythos (Dovin Basal) and sits on a hefty scaling chain that puts him on par with Luke Skywalker. 



You ignored a point of mine in my second post. I said, “Revan as of the MW has “a greater command of the force” than anybody Meetra Surik had ever met as of her arrival on Dromund Kaas, including Nihilus, Sion, and Traya. Nihilus is, of course, able to literally lift the Ravager out of a gravity well”. Meaning that you’ve yet to refute Revan’s greatest TK scaling. 


Per this source, the interdictor that Kyp moves is only 900 meters or so:


SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 OnIlgMgJnqoaa7lnP8TVn6HpsLgOuJUTk86nZxBGrEaQYijtgJYUqDvAYvikfkq8MWHHVdM02gN2LP_oYBidPlsGQ8qr1Vxdsin5omxv8cprJsmtoHtKXCobfPZNx7d0qyq50jVP
To contrast, per, the Ravager is “1,200-meter-long starship” (KOTOR CG). 


Meaning that even if your Kyp point stood, Revan scales far above a feat better than it. 



All my points have stood, while you have no pieces on the board. 



Ironic, because the last time we played chess, this happened:


SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 XihQweDN3KKGCzkoA7FIFgeRnCPJ0jB-oC7H4azpMIQvOEGgrC8U5QdqgXFvR1gxN9ZWLCJkexrVu5_t-m88vtSe4WVQvqj3CMLAvUDQvgfWB4ErvmSINF8FSo9HTB1ell5zSn7i


Character Count: 6103/7500

@EmperorCaedus


Last edited by IG on March 7th 2020, 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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on March 7th 2020, 2:40 pm
The lord of hunger
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on March 7th 2020, 3:04 pm
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 3 1019854026  🇪🇭


Last edited by The lord of hunger on March 7th 2020, 3:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on March 7th 2020, 3:39 pm
wait, IG plays chess? bruh
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on March 27th 2020, 5:23 pm
@MasterCilghal and @Azronger will be judging, if they split the vote, our fates will be left up to the public in a public vote.
Master Azronger
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on April 4th 2020, 1:07 pm
EC's first post was clear and logical: it set about establishing a limit for Revan and then scaled Caedus tremendously above that limit, forming a direct comparison between the two. IG's counter was solid as well: it rebutted the main comparison between Vader and Revan by pointing out the positive factors at play for the former and the negative ones for the latter. Moreover, it showed EC's argument to be self-contradictory: if Vader was an equal of Luke, but Luke got destroyed by Sidious, then how could Vader's showing against Sidious be anything but circumstantial? IG's post also divorced the main man Caedus from EC's scaling as well by showcasing Luke stomping his nephew with telekinesis, and proffering that Luke's slugfest against him happened in a state of emotional vulnerability in which he has struggled against even Lumiya. Finally, a counter-comparison between Revan and Caedus was made by putting a limit on the latter that the former scales tremendously over. Contrary to that, EC's second post was rather weak. He repeatedly ignored IG’s points and strawmanned him more than once, and all in all made a bunch of really bizarre points. IG didn’t address everything EC did in his next post either, but he got EC to concede the Vader and the Star Forge argument in their entirety, and in doing so stripped EC of his only logical comparison between Revan and Caedus. He also strengthened his own comparison between them, making his case even more devastating for EC. Besides that, the two went back and forth on a few points until the finishers, but overall I think @IG did a much better job here, so my vote goes to him. Props to @EmperorCaedus for finishing the debate though.

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on May 6th 2020, 1:38 pm
First of all, props to both for making this an enjoyable debate to read, even if I would suggest both parties (@IG in particular) to improve the formatting in the future. That said, let’s get briefly into each of the arguments raised and how EC and IG handled them: 

1) Scaling from Vader: as expected, this is a major point in IG’s favor, as he was able to effectively  debunk the scaling chain and force his opponent to concede by showing how Vader only defeated the emperor through a circumstantial amp and that the gap in power between Vader/Luke and Sidious under normal circumstances is enormous. There were some minor points in which EC was able to reaffirm his case, but it doesn’t help that the scaling’s foundation was refuted. 


2) Luke vs Lumiya vs Jacen: once again, I think IG did an overall better job. I was left unconvinced by EC’s argument that the duel was a stomp, and I think IG showed rather well how it was not, as well as using it to argue that scaling any combatant, in this case Caedus, from Luke is inherently faulty. EC’s last rebuttal to it was insufficient, as he merely dismissed the Lumiya fight by saying that different circumstances were at play, which however played into IG’s hands as his initial argument was that Lumiya performed better under arguably worse circumstances. Similarly with the Jacen fight: IG’s point is that Luke’s power shifts according to the situation, especially when enraged, and it was not addressed at its core, just dismissed by saying that Luke is not a weak combatant. 

3) Fondor/ Telepathy comparisons: while I admit EC, in the end, was able somewhat to show the circumstantial nature of the Fondor feat and debunk the Kun’s senate feat quite effectively by providing evidence of it being a mere sith spell, he failed to achieve the same with Cinnagar, which on paper looks a lot more impressive than Caedus’ Fondor one. Granted, IG did get the last word here, but his case was nonetheless stronger thorough the entire debate. 


4)Kyp scaling: this was a rather interesting argument from EC, even if the comparisons with Revan was not very strong (the fact that throwing meteors is Revan’s best TK feat doesn’t mean he can’t do better stuff, something IG kinda touched upon later), so props for that. However, IG’s use of the Aurra Sing fight, the duel with Mara Jade, Traviss’ comments that directly contradict Jacen’s musing really destroyed the argument. EC’s rebuttal was insufficient, as the Sing fight taking place before Jacen’s prime doesn’t change that the quote and scaling would be put into question, not to mention that Revan apparently benefits from a similar scaling. So yeah, IG once again did an overall better job. 


5) Revan’s scaling: I will give this to EC, not because he refuted the argument itself but because he touched a point I consider very important in any debate: always back up your main claims with sources. IG did present the Malak quote in the end yes, but that was only because he got the last word. As an external observer who is sticking entirely to what’s presented, the fact that Malak and by extension Revan, is far more powerful than Kun is entirely an assumption. That doesn’t mean of course, that IG should have backed up every single claim, but this was one of the most important arguments in the debate. With the quote however, the entire scaling chain stands.


Conclusion: I think it’s clear that my vote will go to @IG: his case, while not flawless, was stronger, as were his rebuttals, and forced @EmperorCaedus to drop his initial case for Caedus, the only one which provided a direct link between the two.
Master Azronger
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on May 7th 2020, 4:34 am
And with that, @IG is the victor of this debate.

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