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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on November 25th 2019, 4:00 pm
Nice posts so far. Very interesting arguments for Caedus, but I'll see how IG's counter plays out.
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on November 26th 2019, 7:08 am
Have it out later today hopefully
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG)

on November 26th 2019, 3:58 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
EC wrote:I don’t see how an in-universe fact file refutes my excerpt directly from the novelization, as my excerpt is canonically superior




Alright then, my bad, let me give you a better source. 



Insider 101 wrote:At most times, and particularly in his weakened state, Vader wouldn’t have stood a chance against the power emanating from his master


You know what, let me give you an even better source:



Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars the Annotated Screenplay wrote:My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power




EC wrote:Second, focusing does not equal amping himself up. What exactly is he charging? What barriers are being mentioned? Vader is merely just focusing. In the following quote,




Return of the Jedi Adult Novelization wrote:Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed



EC, you’re not grasping the fundamentals of how the Force works here. He is focusing every fiber of being on this one act. He spends minutes charging up his power in a last-ditch assault. As compared to a literal combat situation between Revan and Vitiate (in which Vitiate is horrendously amped). This “feat” cannot be applied to an ordinary combat situation. This feat is entirely circumstantial. Vader is amped by his love for his son, and the energies he’s been gathering for minutes. Minutes. The emperor is surprised and starts blasting lightning everywhere, and the fact that Vader has minutes of time to focus his power and gather his energy into a final assault, combined with his love amp proves that this ‘feat’ cannot be applied to any ordinary combat situation, period.


EC wrote:Like I already explained, Vader was not amped. If anything, his actions were hindered because he was tired from getting battered by Luke not even a couple minutes earlier. Also, his hand was chopped off. Vader’s only boost was his focus on killing the Emperor, and it isn’t even remotely comparable to an actual amp, i.e the Star Forge.



SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 GOPxvl--i-Y1k59doUYE-Yu7h4wqpdHu_l0BwfTYbOTUYyQFJLYEjPifAdI2YFj3DuMOp8pgB5swXzCeAKPWDD9hv66bZ57RlzLl-O7--umH3R1mGDIWOePYb2XgfKlVM1dFA97w



This is a GL quote from Making of Star Wars Return of the Jedi. Lucas literally says that Vader cannot ordinarily do this. 


Furthermore, plenty of sources describe Luke and Vader as equals, as you yourself agree. 



Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote:Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.



Then we can substitute Luke for Vader. Take a look at this from 1:02-2:10


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqaiKmm8gsY




EC wrote:Yes, Vitiate was charging his force lightning up. But you claim that it took “a couple minutes” to charge. The passage describes “The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and signed where the lighting had struck him.” Rising to your feet does not take a couple minutes, it takes mere seconds at most, which is not nearly the amount of time given to Nyriss. It was a comparison of the ability, not time amount.



My bad, meant to write moments. Irrespectively, Vitiate started his assault with charged lightning, and Revan tried to draw it in. As Vitiate continued the assault, his lightning’s potency increased, not too different from what happened between Sidious and Luke. The fact is, the amount of time given to Nyriss to charge her lightning has no bearing on this situation. The text itself says that Vitiate was “infinitely more powerful than Nyriss was”. Meaning Vitiate is just that much better than Nyriss. 



EC wrote:Revan was distracted at Meetra’s death, but it doesn’t explain how little Vitiate had to do to incapacitate Revan so easily. It wasn’t a charged blast, because Vitiate did not know Scourge was going to betray Meetra, and thus didn’t have anything to charge for.



Again, you are completely ignoring any and all context in the fight itself. Revan had just been blasted by charged lightning, on one of the most potent DS nexuses ever. The fact that he gets up (unlike Vader) is impressive on its own. Revan didn’t even realize Vitiate would attack him. He gets caught by surprise, and he was horrendously weakened, you’re making no sense.



EC wrote:Except Vader didn’t charge anything, I already refuted the claim it above. There is also no evidence supporting that Vader had a love amp, yes he wanted to save Luke from Palpatine, but it was his increased focus that allowed him to do that.



His focus, was him charging himself up, increasing his potency.SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 JQ6RMOnCJceI1zia3dSkeNWYqqR6P13toJ7WthZXiW5pvxSmUhHzMO-Yh6GyaMvLLmymMeQ1Ft1kpAhwTRaE0nIKsh9XiYid8cOxZzOxhX7_JhmGtAPwDMGG7kkVt--l7-UKzE6x


The Insider even says it, the LS gives him the strength he needs, he normally would not be able to do this, and he dies. The text itself says he would not have a chance.



EC wrote:Revan never manages to hold Vitiate’s lightning in,
[...]
It is explained that when Vitiate hits Revan with the blast, Revan “immediately screams, then collapses to the ground, unconscious.” So he didn’t hold Vitiate’s lightning at all.




Wrong part of the fight. This is after Meetra dies, when Revan’s surprised. This isn’t a valid argument. 




EC wrote:You missed the point. The whole purpose of the Vader vs Sidious argument was to draw comparisons to the Revan vs Vitiate, not to scale Luke from it.



Luke ~> Vader > Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands.




And yet you still scale Luke from it. Hmmmm.
 

EC wrote:EC

The first quote states that Luke has grown “much more powerful in the force” since Exar Kun saw him four years earlier.


The second quote states directly states that Luke’s powers since Dark Empire have been “redoubled” insinuating that JA Luke is twice as powerful as Dark Empire Luke, who is twice as powerful as RotJ Luke. 


As he continues his growth rate, he starts as RotJ Luke in 4 ABY, then by 9 ABY he doubled in power, then by 11 ABY he doubles again, it’s safe to say he has grown an absurd amount from 11 ABY (The end of Jedi Academy) to 21 ABY (The start of the Yuuzhan Vong War.




Thus, Vong War Luke >>>> JA Luke >>> DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Vader >> Revan (Reborn) > Revan (KotOR) still stands.




EC, you realize that redouble doesn’t mean to double, right? 


It literally means, “make or become much greater, more intense, or more numerous.”


The redoubling argument doesn’t work, and I’ve already disproved the notion of Vader being near Revan Reborn.



EC wrote:Alright, this leads nicely into my next topic


B. Comparisons between Luke vs Caedus, and Luke vs Lumiya









Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:


She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later. 
Then, as she began to raise her arm again, he ran at her, so close in that she couldn't get the whip traveling at its maximum lethal speed. He forced her back, step by step, as she tried to maintain the distance she needed.
One-two-three-four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge.
Her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase. The edge of the mesa was cracked and fissured. The smooth glittering stone began to crumble.
Luke reached out and caught her hand as she fell, whip tumbling and bouncing down the steep rock face into oblivion. He leaned back, all his weight on his heels, knuckles clenched white with the strain of holding her weight, and for a second he wanted to see her face dwindling as she fell to her death, mouth open in a scream, but that wasn't the way to end this.
"I'd never let you fall," Luke said, and pulled her back to safety. As she straightened up, he looked her in the eyes-calm, eerily calm-and swung his lightsaber in a single decapitating arc.
Now he could breathe again.
Here is the entire fight, I will be breaking it up into sections as the fight progresses, and comparing it to Caedus's fight with Luke.


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
"She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later."


The fight starts off, and we are already given the notion that Skywalker is the clear superior. 


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:


“Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.


Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.


But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.


The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse."



In comparison, Luke’s fight with Caedus starts neutral, even when Luke masked his presence in the force to get the element of surprise.


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:


"One-two-three-four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge."


Luke was quite literally battering Lumiya, Lumiya is close to the edge of the mesa.


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:


“Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.



Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.



The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.”


In contrast, as Luke pushes the offensive, Jacen is able to fool his uncle into thinking he will employ Force lightning and instead, he proceeds to smash him with a tendril and momentarily pis him against the wall. Like I said in my previous post, Caedus could’ve killed Luke in this moment, and even messes with Luke.


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:


Her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase. The edge of the mesa was cracked and fissured. The smooth glittering stone began to crumble.


Luke then proceeds to batter and ragdoll her at the edge of the Mesa.


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
“Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck, which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.”


Once again, Caedus was able to dodge a potential killing blow from Luke, then proceeds to land a Force-enhanced punch into the exact spot he had earlier. 


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
"I'd never let you fall," Luke said, and pulled her back to safety. As she straightened up, he looked her in the eyes-calm, eerily calm-and swung his lightsaber in a single decapitating arc.
Now he could breathe again.


The fight ends with Lumiya about to fall of the Mesa, but Luke picks her back up and promptly decapitates her. 


Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
“Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall. Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to gammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.


Once Luke lands some hits with his elbows, and smashes the both of them into the wall with the Force he is able to break free from Caedus’s grasp. After this point, Caedus is literally stabbed in the back by Ben, which ends the fight, not Luke ending it himself.



Yeah, except for the fact that Luke still manages to beat Jacen, despite Jacen having every conceivable advantage in this scenario, and Luke in this grief-torn, angry state is literally matched by fucking Lumiya. Are you seriously telling me Lumiya ~ LOTF Luke?


Now back to this point, have you not read my opener? Luke had the advantage from the start by ambushing Caedus while he wasn’t expecting it, Caedus literally ignites his saber just in time for himself not do get stabbed fatally. And as I explained, Luke and Caedus had a competent matchup, while Luke quite literally ragdolls Lumiya.



On the Lumiya fight, Luke doesn’t ragdoll her, at all. What happens is that (while yes, Luke is winning) Lumiya just gives ground, until she’s at the edge of the mesa, which cracks beneath her. Luke then grabs her as she falls and decapitates her.


On the Jacen fight now, okay, Luke ambushes Caedus, true. But Jacen turns around and is in a defensive position. Throughout the fight, Jacen continuously gives ground, and gets in mostly environmental hits, as well as some that harm Luke via old wounds. Still, Luke wins decisively. Where exactly in the cited text does Ben stab Jacen in the back? 


To analyze the overall fight though, here are some of my takeaways:



  • Luke decisively wins. There is no doubt about this. From the very beginning, Luke holds a steady upper hand, and Caedus continuously gives ground.
  • Luke wins twice. He has an opportunity to kill his nephew twice, but doesn’t.
  • The only reason Jacen was able to stay in the fight for so long was because of a bunch of environmental traps that Luke didn’t know about.




EC wrote:In Inferno (the 6th book) Caedus was caught by surprise, but he learned from his mistakes. Caedus gets surprised by Luke again, but is able to hold his own as I’ve explained. Subsequently confirming that he learned from his duel with Luke in Inferno, therefore he is superior then he is shown in this fight. Invincible is the last book in the series, he has had a lot of time to grow since then. 



Ummmmm, they never fight in Invincible. If you mean Inferno, that’s when Luke pins him to his chair. Furthermore, later in the series, Luke manages to once again ragdoll Jacen in Revelation. Luke tears apart Jacen’s StealthX despite Jacen’s best efforts, and Jacen “got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster”. 



Legacy of the Force: Revelation wrote:Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummag-ing furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart...


Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing. Then he was aware of brilliant white light coming right at him. In the moments before he managed to veer off to starboard, almost blinded, he got a glimpse of a StealthX's uneven out-line with two grappling arms extended, and the sense of a Jedi other than Luke.




And Luke is not fighting at even remotely high potency against Jacen when he fights him aboard the Anakin Solo



Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.






So, Luke realizes that he was fighting at a low point. He was not anywhere near his maximum ability. Luke also nearly never fights close to full potency. He usually jobs horrendously. So this is jobbing Luke being able to annihilate Caedus in Revelation, and jobbing & emotionally hindered Luke being able to decisively beat Jacen in Inferno



EC wrote:A couple things to note about this, yes it is near a prime Caedus, but it still isn’t. Secondly, we have no possible way of gauging the number of people Caedus BMed that day. It claims “hundreds and more” which means that it could possibly mean 100, 300, 500, etc. There is no way of knowing how many people he BMed, so you can’t use this as a way of gauging Caedus’s power.



I thought you’d bring this up, so let me just show you another one of Kun’s incredible TP feats. This one is one of my favorite, as it really shows how much power Kun can display. 
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 EGFWVfHHRdPThJ_0SGAUz-XZkrPRYKxgV1mbpe23sbtjzND3Zj1ZBe4cE8kWHkmRvM8sI99Iw0ZPx5hXcZQbXUOtyUIfO__Eas6S7hnXmNDs9NmVH8HsG5m3PaISV5CIDWjggWD1


So, Kun literally just TP freezes every single goddamn member of the entire senate. These are at least a thousand senators. There’s a bunch of those tiny bumps in the background there, each representing likely a single Senator. The senate is a dome--it’s omnidirectional. So there’s got to be a really large number there. This is far above the few hundred that Jacen BMs and gets tired doing. 


Now, this on its own is rather impressive, but when you add to it what Kun was doing while holding the TP makes it so much more impressive.


First, he ragdolls Sylvar:
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 9_8zBn4zynrDkBRa8FKAZbDKA8Q0IrdNqXHYPewo6-HoIHfGDwjUE8fdHjVVONvPkQ479-ITF2psRFHedbM0t7EbnaRR8KPiVRZaTRozQYyZ_ZbrdTUNUCV1T5kY7vOWDDKDUynz
Next, he engages in a duel with his former master, Vodo-Siosk Baas.


SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 MabNdIYy3pSdg2ZMG3DAsr2GXlnGIOHENyFdfjDBofCEC998SueXrDD-ndU15mTAD8cbvItaeEcFymGuqL8zOqdTe2XPgst8FvXdHIJ2UBZ4x-Q4j121jH6gOrCS1iS6plKRO5OM
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 Mi5lGYckGHp1djOMlt8mpUYTYCcTmLFVLkfK-kxtLDVQoMAHq6NFid4oXH3QEj5mq3YsCKphXGP24boLyM5tjYADrHlfqIJMw334PvYLxpozdXgLynvoxH9lCwbwRoUFEvEEFnYy
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 CclcjcMww7pySyayZPKAK6nnzrNRBsZol4oCtjLPYm00fCJb1sezasIiLFInXF9B-pRyIHtPDBno0twB7z_ZawBhTZOB-d5ysbxouexTwRoq6MtyazW506r9XpSei2lHRUBvzDwz
(skips a few pages)
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 Qio4INfSz7JJ2GAcj-pwIXw_8sVbGKqPEGrGMu2eI6uo3TqYety3vBJ_-OBOCywatYh7PirTnOBKm7ZhdrRjJCpcZ43K7DtvbMddHHEt2oKMXhmafoC5Sp9Vb4UNGcFf0DHRWIaa SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 MXEdSbJafUHArAB89yShHuLR0qPfiRQ-9J9b2cYWDGyQEGkH_hOgpT1dschAop4-nogJjcm97YTuY4Cl0Yx9zZ5I_iVzyxATeQOWF5XetasAzVFKf4CfYz0RgAzxHmrIYCmCjNLI


Vodo of course, is considered the Yoda of his era. 


SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 8mgd3qQAAvOat9Bv8vGGgGVeTB9dsuXqBUWqgdRa0s9kbUV1fHFoisU8joaV-8H3voCmaU9gdPPYJic8d1ALQXwXREJ7Y3PnhaGKzs7Otgtok3yTX75IepCLbwDfFSKOJiMXrv3k


EC, do you realize how this compares to Caedus? Even if we were to say that the amount of people they TPed/BMed was equivalent, Kun fighting Vodo and Sylvar while doing it seals the deal for why Caedus cannot compare. 




EC wrote:Defeating droids? How exactly is that feat comparable in anyway to what I’ve mentioned above.


IG wrote:
Revan's defeat of Malak, while a close fight does categotize as a stomp because Malak is constantly revitalizing himselv, and Revan literally beats him 8 times.





Malak did not defeat Malak 8 times. In the duel, Malak used the Force to drain the life force from the one of the Jedi, transferring it to himself. But Revan freed all of the Jedi spirits that we're held captive, thus shortening Malak's supply of energy and allowing them to become one with the force. So instead of facing 8 Malaks, he was releasing the Jedi spirits instead. If faced against 8 Malak’s, all drawing from the full power of the Star Forge, he would have certainly been defeated.  


IG wrote:
Revan then goes on to fight Bastila on one of the most potent nexuses ever, while she is constantly regenerating her power.


Bastilla is quite literally fodder. None of her feats are comparable to Caedus.


Star Wars: The Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:
"Combat is fraught and frantic, but [ends with Revan's] victory."


Star Wars Databanks: Bastila Shan wrote:
"The next time Revan encountered Bastila, she was a dark warrior filled with rage."


The battle was described as intense and climatic between the two fighters, which is really low for Revan. 





Okay, so number one: Fraught and Frantic does not mean it was intense and climactic. According to the dictionary, fraught means, “causing or affected by anxiety or stress.”, and frantic means, “conducted in a hurried, excited, and chaotic way, typically because of the need to act quickly.”, or “wild or distraught with fear, anxiety, or other emotion.”


Does this mean that SF Bastila and Revan are close? Of course not. It alludes to the fact that they had an intimate romantic relationship. That the two of them were in love, and it was stressful, and combat was quick. Furthermore, Revan fights her multiple times, as she is revitalized by the Star Forge. 


Bastila herself acknowledges she could not beat Revan:



Knights of the Old Republic wrote:No, this is not possible! You have rejected the dark side, you are a weak and pathetic servant of the light! How can you still stand against me? Why can't I defeat you?



And as for the quote that said Bastila still feared Malak:



Knights of the Old Republic wrote:I should stay here, though. If we face Malak I am afraid his dark presence will overwhelm me. It would not be wise to expose myself to such temptation.






EC wrote:There is no evidence to support that the Star Forge hampered Revan’s abilities. It enhanced Malak’s, but did not hamper Revan. And you mentioning a ‘tired’ Revan segways into my next argument.



EC, this should be sufficient.
Knights of the Old Republic wrote:



You are growing weary, I can sense it! Your strength falters, the light side is failing you while the power of the Star Forge re-energizes me! Soon this will all be over!




Bastila gets amped by the Star Forge, meaning it’s a nexus, given that she is a dark-sider. Next, since she is amped, and Revan is not, as you yourself have said, we can infer that it is a polarized nexus, specifically one of the dark side, given that Revan is light-sided as of KOTOR. Can you name me one single polarized nexus that doesn’t hinder the opposite side’s force users? Therefore, the SF hinders Revan.



EC wrote:The Star Forge is described as an amp. Malak can’t dominate the Star Forge, all it does is just give him increased power levels then regular base Malak. “So much power, it is blinding.” This quote claims that the Star Forge has the power, and it grants it’s wielder access to said power. Malak didn’t dominate anything.





Ajunta Pall wrote:"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."

The Exiles got their power from a Star Map. The Star Forge, therefore, is vastly more powerful than a map, which logically is a fraction of the SF’s power. Pall refers to the map as “the dark place”, implying it in and of itself is a nexus. The Exiles were wary of the Map, whereas Malak had mastered the forge, perhaps dominate was the wrong word in this context, but Malak had brought it to a level of power unprecedented. Mastered its use rather. Malak was able to push it to 300%, greater than even his master before him. 


This is actually really impressive because Revan as of the MW has “a greater command of the force” than anybody Meetra Surik had ever met as of her arrival on Dromund Kaas, including Nihilus, Sion, and Traya. Nihilus is, of course, able to literally lift the Ravager out of a gravity well. 



Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:The Ravager was hauled from the gravity well at Malachor V by its new master. He used it to escape imprisonment on Malachor V.




Nihilus also literally holds the entire ship together with sheer force of will.



The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"Darth Nihilus' dark will held the vessel and its crew together."




EC wrote:Malak did not defeat Malak 8 times. In the duel, Malak used the Force to drain the life force from the one of the Jedi, transferring it to himself. But Revan freed all of the Jedi spirits that we're held captive, thus shortening Malak's supply of energy and allowing them to become one with the force. So instead of facing 8 Malaks, he was releasing the Jedi spirits instead. If faced against 8 Malak’s, all drawing from the full power of the Star Forge, he would have certainly been defeated.  



Any proof? There is absolutely nothing that supports your claims EC.

EC wrote:

This whole listings of scaling chains have been debunked, scroll up.




Well actually, not really.


Now we’re left with:


KOTOR Revan >> SF Revan >> SF Malak >> Malak >> Kun >>> TPing at least a thousand people while defeating one of the most powerful Jedi of his era. >>>> BMing around a few hundred people max and getting ludicrously tired from it ~ Jacen. 


KOTOR Revan >> SF Revan >> SF Malak >> Malak > Darth Revan >>> MW Revan >~ Nihilus > TKing the Ravager, and holding it together. 


KOTOR Revan >>> SF Revan > SF Tired Revan >>> SF Malak >>> Malak >>> Dominating the SF >>>>> A star Map ~> The Jedi Exiles collectively >> Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur




EC wrote:The final scaling chain we are left with is:



LotF Luke >?> Yuuzhan Vong Luke >> Darth Caedus (sitting somewhere between DE and LotF) > DE Luke ~> DE Sidious >>> RotJ Luke ~> Darth Vader > Revan (Reborn) >> Revan (KotOR).


All of my points still stand, you have yet to debunk a single one of my points, while I have debunked all of yours. Maybe you should just walk away from all of this while you still can, as clearly I have the superior argument, my friend.


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Dolph
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on January 2nd 2020, 2:14 pm
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Introduction

I apologize preemptively for throwing out some of the arguments I have used, which includes the Vader argument, and Star Forge argument. @DarthAnt66 has already debunked the entire argument, and thus it is not relevant to this SS anymore. I also apologize for relying on long and unnecessary convoluted scaling chains, which I don’t see has a productive use of time anymore. With that out of the way, let's proceed. 

I. Rebuttals against Exar Kun

@IG wrote:I thought you’d bring this up, so let me just show you another one of Kun’s incredible TP feats. This one is one of my favorite, as it really shows how much power Kun can display.

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So, Kun literally just TP freezes every single goddamn member of the entire senate. These are at least a thousand senators. There’s a bunch of those tiny bumps in the background there, each representing likely a single Senator. The senate is a dome--it’s omnidirectional. So there’s got to be a really large number there. This is far above the few hundred that Jacen BMs and gets tired doing.

Kun’s senate feat was not TP in any way, shape, or form. The feat was a premeditated “sith spell” that was not at all portrayal of Kun’s actualized power (link) . Furthermore, Jacen’s BM feat and Kun’s sith spell cannot be compared.

@IG wrote:Now, this on its own is rather impressive, but when you add to it what Kun was doing while holding the TP makes it so much more impressive.

A premeditated “sith spell” does not require Kun to hold anything at all, thus these next feats you mention are not applicable. 

@IG wrote:First, he ragdolls Sylvar:

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A simple force push =/= ragdolling. An example of this is Ventress pushing Anakin out of the way to engage Obi Wan (link) . Furthermore, you haven’t even proved to me why Sylvar is even remotely impressive. Oh yea, he isn’t holding any form of TP while doing this.

@IG wrote:Next, he engages in a duel with his former master, Vodo-Siosk Baas.

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(skips a few pages)

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Vodo of course, is considered the Yoda of his era.

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Again, omission of context. The text is describing their “rank” and “authority” compared to other masters in their respective era. Baas was compared to Windu in this respect, not Yoda. Even then, this is clearly wrong because Exar Kun was shown as clearly superior to Baas even as a Jedi Knight. (link)

@IG wrote:EC, do you realize how this compares to Caedus? Even if we were to say that the amount of people they TPed/BMed was equivalent, Kun fighting Vodo and Sylvar while doing it seals the deal for why Caedus cannot compare.

Again, Jacen’s BM and Kun’s sith spell are not comparable at all. Battle-meditation is not an accurate proxy for power, considering characters like Bastilla Shan were “peerless” in BM to everyone in her era (link) , but is demonstrably inferior to Malak (link) .

@IG wrote:KOTOR Revan >> SF Revan >> SF Malak >> Malak >> Kun >>> TPing at least a thousand people while defeating one of the most powerful Jedi of his era. >>>> BMing around a few hundred people max and getting ludicrously tired from it ~ Jacen.

I’ve debunked Kun’s feat, and as that is the only thing holding Jacen in that unnecessarily convoluted scaling chain, the rest is pointless.

II. Rebuttals against Jacen

@IG wrote:On the Lumiya fight, Luke doesn’t ragdoll her, at all. What happens is that (while yes, Luke is winning) Lumiya just gives ground, until she’s at the edge of the mesa, which cracks beneath her. Luke just grabs her as she falls and decapitates her.

The omission of context is rather disturbing. Luke “forced her back, step by step.” (link) , Lumiya not only does not give ground at all, but the ground being given is due to Luke himself. Luke “drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge” (link) , where “her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase” (link) , meaning that she was being battered into submission, as she struggled to stay grounded. 

@IG wrote:Throughout the fight, Jacen continously gives ground, and gets in mostly environmental hits, as well as some that harm Luke via old wounds. Still, Luke wins decisively.

Luke pushing the offensive can be attributed to his “bloodlust” because of Luke witnessing Jacen torturing his Ben. Jacen landing environmental hits speaks to his versatility as a force user. For example, Jacen force-pushes Luke into a “durasteel wall”, and finds him “pinned” in place by use of TK by Jacen. As Luke tries to fight back, he still is “pinned” by Jacen with only one hand, sneering back at Luke, indicating he held the advantage. Though, this advantage is lost later into the battle, it shows that Jacen did contend with Luke. (link)

@IG wrote:Luke decisively wins. There is no doubt about this. From the very beginning, Luke holds a steady upper hand, and Caedus continuously gives ground.

What are you even responding to? I never said that Bloodlust!Luke didn’t win, nor was that ever my argument. 

@IG wrote:Luke wins twice. He has an opportunity to kill his nephew twice, but doesn’t.

If you are referencing Luke’s other contention with Jacen, that iteration of Luke was not bloodlusted, which I never argued Jacen had a chance again. Again, failure to read the text and my arguments. 

@IG wrote:The only reason Jacen was able to stay in the fight for so long was because of a bunch of environmental traps that Luke didn’t know about.

Again, environmental strikes against Luke speaks on Jacen’s versatility for using the environment to gain an advantage, even against a clearly more powerful opponent in Luke. Again, failure to read the text and my arguments. 

@IG wrote:Luke manages to once again ragdoll Jacen in Revelation. Luke tears apart Jacen’s StealthX despite Jacen’s best efforts, and Jacen “got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster”.

Luke ragdolling Jacen while unhindered and tapping into deeper reserves was never one of my arguments. To reiterate, my argument is that Jacen was capable of competing with Bloodlust!Luke, which shows Jacen’s growth until he fights a Luke-amped-Jaina in Invincible (see argument for that later). 

@IG wrote:“Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.
They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on the body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories."

So, Luke realizes that he was fighting at a low point. He
was not anywhere near his maximum ability. Luke also nearly never fights close to full potency. He usually jobs horrendously. So this is jobbing Luke being able to annihilate Caedus in Revelation, and jobbing & emotionally hindered Luke being able to decisively beat Jacen in Inferno

That quote appears in “Legacy of the Force: Fury”, which is the book after Jacen and Bloodlust!Luke fought in Inferno. Thus, the quote does not provide Luke’s actual thoughts at the time, with his actual thoughts being bloodlusted. Again, you fail to comprehend my arguments because I’ve never argued an unhindered Luke tapping into his full reserves was a match for Jacen, only his bloodlusted self in Inferno. 

III. Continuing Jacen Arguments


As we established before, Jacen was able to hold his own against a bloodlusted Luke. Even after this, he has daily growth quotes establishing “he was growing closer to Luke’s strength by the day” (link) . And after receiving a sacrificial power amp (link) he muses, “I am more powerful than any of you” as referring to the council, barring Luke (link) . Jacen’s “opinions of his powers” are not “misplaced”, according to one of the authors of Legacy of the Force, Karen Traviss (link) . The context of the interview was how Jacen was written and the traits that make Jacen a villain. 

The reason that Jacen’s superiority of the council is important is because of Kyp Durron. Kyp Durron has many notable feats, the most famous one is being able to manipulate a Yuuzhan Vong Dovin Basal singularity (link) , Dovin Basals are known to “pull moons out of their orbit” and could even manipulate “specific gravity fields -- millions of kilometers away” (link) . Furthermore, unlike the comparison drawn with Jacen and Kun, TK is one of the best comparisons of power in the force. 

There are no TK feats available for Redeemed Revan, so we will use his superior 300-year-later iteration, Foundry Revan’s. Foundry Revan has a TK feat where we can draw an actual comparison from, he pulls 40 meteors from space, and they burst on impact. (link) . Even this is inferior to Kyp’s Dovin Basal feat, which is a “black hole”feat. 

And finally, Jacen’s final duel with Luke-amped-Jaina is indicative of the tremendous growth he has accomplished. Convinced he was fighting Luke, Jacen thought it was Luke due to his enormous power, and Jacen knew exactly how powerful he was because of every encounter he had with Luke before, including being pinned to a chair by Luke himself. This shows that Luke-amped-Jaina is at least on par with the Luke he fought aboard the Anakin Solo. Jacen matches Luke-amped-Jaina despite the fact that he is tremendously injured, fighting “one-armed.” (link) . Which means Jacen against Luke-amped-Jaina scales far above Jacen against Bloodlust!Luke.

IV. Conclusion


Here are the main points:


  • Exar Kun’s sith ritual feat and Jacen’s BM feat are not remotely comparable. 
  • Lumiya gets stomped by Bloodlust!Luke, while Jacen holds his own.
  • Jacen scales above Kyp Durron, who has significantly better TK feats than Revan, which is an accurate proxy for power. 
  • Jacen against Luke-amped-Jaina scales far above Jacen against Bloodlust!Luke.


This has been a reply to one of the most meme-tier posts I’ve ever seen. You have no pieces left on the board, and your ludicrous and unnecessary scaling chain is utterly unsalvageable. It is here where I offer you the chance to concede before you make a fool of yourself, with your only argument shattered in pieces. Here is an accurate portrayal of how this is going for you:

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So Caedus wins. The end.
Dolph
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on January 2nd 2020, 2:20 pm
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on January 2nd 2020, 3:09 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Y'all are doing pretty good for now
Sjuttiosju
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on January 2nd 2020, 4:21 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
EC's best post so far tbh.
IG
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on January 2nd 2020, 4:22 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:EC's best post so far tbh.
Best in the SS?
The lord of hunger
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on January 2nd 2020, 4:34 pm
good post
Dolph
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on January 2nd 2020, 11:32 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Y'all are doing pretty good for now

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:EC's best post so far tbh.

@The lord of hunger wrote:good post

Much thanks.
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on January 11th 2020, 2:23 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Section 1A - The Kun-Parison Still Stands:



EC wrote:Kun’s senate feat was not TP in any way, shape, or form. The feat was a premeditated “sith spell” that was not at all portrayal of Kun’s actualized power (link) . Furthermore, Jacen’s BM feat and Kun’s sith spell cannot be compared.



I’d like a citation for “Sith Spells” =/= “actualized power”. All your link is showing me is that he used a “sith spell”. 


Another thing… you do realize that most feats involving Force Abilities are usually based on the user’s Force  Power, right? Your claim here that Sith Spells are an exception has no basis in fact nor logic, as logic would dictate that one’s use of the force (or a feat) is directly related to the character’s power, mastery, and effort. Kun’s effort shown in the Senate Hall is utterly minimal, yet the scale is massive, as the Senate numbers in at least the ten thousands. Caedus’ effort shown on Fondor is massive, yet his scale is minimal, evidenced by the amount of technicians. 


Something to note here is the fact that TOTJ is one of the oldest additions to the EU, and pretty much all esoteric techniques are referred to as “spells”, “sorcery”, or “sorcerous ways”, so declaring certain abilities are sorcery and certain others aren’t is pointless. In the end, nomenclature and categorizations are useless, as you’ve yet to show me how “sith spells” are essentially cheat codes that can’t be compared to other powers (especially ones they replicate). In the end, Exar Kun was controlling the actions of the crowd akin to telepathic domination, it should be treated as such, and is consequently comparable to Caedus vs a room of Fondorian technicians. 


Section 1B - Assumption Galore



EC wrote:The feat was a premeditated “sith spell” 



Lets focus on that word for a minute and then swap it out for the word "prepared". You’re trying to equate Kun's Senate feat as something requiring prep, although you've chosen a more ambiguous and less direct term to describe it (maybe  because it's not true?). 


However, prep isn't mentioned within any comic, any sourcebook nor in the scan you’ve presented:


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Something that works “silently, and perfectly” implies that there is no time, nor effort required. Kun just strolls into the stadium and puts every single bystander under his control without a gesture, which is what’s depicted in the lore. As the claimant, the burden of proof is on you to show that Kun prepped for the feat, proof you’ve yet to supply in the slightest. 
Section 1C - The Beauty of Multitasking


EC: A premeditated “sith spell” does not require Kun to hold anything at all, thus these next feats you mention are not applicable.


Evidence: ...


Logic: … 


Reality:  Influencing objects or people through the force requires a degree of consistent effort and concentration.  If Yoda had stopped holding the metal column with TK in AOTC, then Obi-Wan and Anakin would’ve been killed, right? The same is true of TP and the same is true of Sorcery. Legacy of the Force: Tempest showed us what happened when Jacen had a momentary lapse in concentration; he tried to keep Aurra Sing frozen with TP, but she escaped.  Similarly, Darth Bane: Rule of Two shows us that Zannah can't maintain her Illusions (sorcery) in saber duels as it’s too hard for her to concentrate on both. Seeing a pattern? In the end, every power works in the same fashion. The user channels his/her power into the target and must continuously apply power, lest it slips out of their grip. Conclusively, Exar Kun's feats aren't a special exception and you'd need to prove that they are. Therefore, the Kun-parison still stands. 


Section 1D - Darth Caedus vs. The Fondorian Shields


So it turns out that I’ve been misunderstanding this feat for a bit. I’ve discussed it in depth with a few others and reached the conclusion that this isn’t BM whatsoever. In fact, the BM was only the means to an end, for Caedus to amp his own abilities (or rather lack thereof). 



Legacy of the Force: Revelation wrote:The adrenaline and pure white rage looping back to him from the individual commanders made his throat tighten. It was almost like a back-pressure effect, that the passion for the battle that he was channeling into them gained power and momentum, and syphoned back into him as a changed and magnified thing that he felt he had to vent from his chest or scream.


[...]


He could no longer pick out the individual crew and their stations around him in the Anakin Solo, just a complex tapestry of emotions, and that was the state of near blindness that he needed to push his way into the minds of strangers many kilometers away on the planet beneath.




Let’s break this down. Caedus first imbues 100 commanders with rage, said rage then creates a superconducting loop that intensifies with each pass (not too different from Mace’s Vaapad amp). The rage is needed to confuse the shield technicians on Fondor, so  Caedus discharges all that energy as well as his own just to compel a "room" of people to do his bidding, evidenced by the fact that he tried to “push his way into the minds of strangers”. This tires him so much that he isn’t capable of standing up to a single Mandalorian afterwards.


Vs.


Kun casually strolls into the senate hall without any prior warning and freezes everybody there but the Jedi. The hall seats at least tens of thousands of people based on dimensions. He then ragdolls Sylvar,  stomps Vodo, and shows no visible signs of strain as he does this. 


The comparison doesn’t seem too good for Jacen at the moment, but if you still aren’t convinced about the usability of the Senate feat, I’ll give you another one: Kun’s TP feat on Cinnagar. So initially when I used this, you had refuted it by claiming that the amount of scanning technicians on Cinnagar was unquantifiable--there could be as few as 10 or 50. This is clearly not the case, as Empress Teta (the planet that Cinnagar is on) houses a population of 1.3 billion people, and Cinnagar is noted as the only major city, that takes up a majority of the planet. 


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For Kun to accomplish this feat, he’d have to (from orbit) sense every single person with scanning tech, then he’d have to TP all of them to the point where they’d be incapable of noticing a massive battleship attacking a hangar. Given that (say) 80% probably would live in the only major city that covers a majority of the planet, that’s still a billion people. Then we’d have to assume that (somehow) less than .0001 percent of the population of all of Cinnagar possessed scanning tech. And then we’d still have around 10000 people, a number that’s still at least ten times greater than the amount that Caedus was tired with, to the point where a single Mando is able to take him out. The amount of mental gymnastics required to lowball this feat to < Caedus is far too much for an SS.  


Cinnagar clearly shows, yet again, that Kun is able to use the force on a massive scale with minimal effort, a scale that far eclipses Jacen’s, and effort that’s nowhere near Jacen’s. 


You’ve claimed that:



EC wrote:Battle-meditation is not an accurate proxy for power



Battle meditation is no longer the paramount idea, we're comparing their telepathy and force reserves.


And if Jacen’s TP isn’t a reliable proxy for his power, then why is it an ability he relies on so often? Against Aurra, against Mara, against Luke… If Jacen, as you’ve (erroneously) claimed, scales vastly above moving black holes telekinetically, then why is his only avenue of success vs. the Fondorian shields to use TP?


The answer to this question is that Jacen either prioritizes his TP, or it’s something he uses just as often as other powers. Which is a bad thing if we’re comparing him to Kun, in which the former comes out… less favorably. 


But then you add Base Malak.


Then you add him with the SF amp


Then you add the fact that Revan was tired and still stomps him.


Then you add that Revan was hindered tremendously by the SF’s passive nexus.


And you have the first unfavorable comparison for Caedus, but certainly not the last. 


2A - Lumiya vs. Caedus


Unlike Caedus, Lumiya was able to compete with Luke in the most direct way possible, the negative circumstances surrounding her notwithstanding. 


Environmental: She’s on the wrong side of the cliff


Physical: She isn’t recovered fully from a fight with Mara previously in the novel, in which she was stabbed in the gut.


Mental: She was resigned to death. 




Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:“To buy you time to consolidate your hold on the galaxy,” she said. “By making Luke believe it was all my doing.”


“Don’t you think you should be hiding from him?”


“No. You might say that’s my destiny.


“That smacks of a death wish.”


“My work and my life are done, Jacen. I’d really welcome a rest.”



Lumiya’s only goals against Luke were to misdirect the blame, and also to die. 


She wants to die, and therefore won't go to desperate measures to live... such as breaking off the fight to poison Luke with venom, casting illusions,  manipulating the environment to batter him or exploiting the wound she gave him in one of the previous books.  She didn't do any of that, but Jacen did. He did because if he didn't play a guileful game, he would have lost the duel in around 3 hits, despite gaining a power boost in the first instance: 



Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:Luke didn't know what it was doing there-whether Ben had attacked Jacen with it, or whether Jacen had been using it on Ben-but he started to accept that the horrible scene was real. He was, in fact, standing in the doorway of a secret cabin filled with Yuuzhan Vong torture devices, watching his twisted nephew taunt his captive son.
Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.
Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.
But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.
The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.
Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.
Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.
Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.
Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.
Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.
The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.




Jacen essentially gets knocked out in three hits, and he would’ve lost in said hits had it not been for his abuse of an environment that he was intimately familiar with and Luke had no knowledge of (which doesn’t show any usable versatility for this fight, considering there isn’t any environment for him to abuse). It is utterly false to claim that Caedus was competing with Luke… at all.  Furthermore, it’s worth noting that Luke’s hindrance against Jacen should logically be worse because when he fought Lumiya, he only thought that she had killed his wife. Against Jacen however, he finds that his son is being tortured by the “nephew he once loved”, the love of his life has been killed (by said nephew), and that he has killed the wrong person in his pursuit for vengeance (which should screw with his strong morals, as he normally performs far below peak performance out of fear of the dark). 


Lumiya on the other hand:


Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later.
But so would he.
Then, as she began to raise her arm again, he ran at her, so close in that she couldn't get the whip traveling at its maximum lethal speed. He forced her back, step by step, as she tried to maintain the distance she needed.
One—two—three—four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge.
Lumiya held the whip handle in both hands like a staff and blocked his downward sweep. For a moment they were locked in a stalemate, pushing against each other and grunting with the effort, with only the sounds of exertion because they had nothing left to say to each other.
Her rear foot began to slide backward as she struggled for purchase. The edge of the mesa was cracked and fissured. The smooth glittering stone began to crumble. Luke reached out and caught her hand as she fell, whip tumbling and bouncing down the steep rock face into oblivion. He leaned back, all his weight on his heels, knuckles clenched white with the strain of holding her weight, and for a second he wanted to see her face dwindling as she fell to her death, mouth open in a scream, but that wasn't the way to end this.
"I'd never let you fall," Luke said, and pulled her back to safety. As she straightened up, he looked her in the eyes—calm, eerily calm—and swung his lightsaber in a single decapitating arc.
Now he could breathe again.





Can clearly stand up to Luke despite her injuries, stays on feet for way longer than 3 hits and stalemates him in a bladelock for a brief period of time before the ground beneath her gives out.  



EC wrote:The omission of context is rather disturbing. Luke “forced her back, step by step”.



Which is not the same as stomp and not the same as being put on her knees within three hits like Jacen.  She's being driven back, but it's a gradual process and one that doesn't require him to be much more powerful.  



EC wrote: Luke “drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa”.



Which doesn't indicate a stomp.  A 'battering ram' can hammer away at a reinforced steel door, but that doesn’t mean that the steel door isn't providing sufficient resistance. It means he's the aggressor, but it means jackshit in terms of a massive disparity between them.



EC wrote: meaning that she was being battered into submission, as she struggled to stay grounded. 


Yeah, but you've completely forgotten the fact that Luke is struggling.



Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:Lumiya held the whip handle in both hands like a staff and blocked his downward sweep. For a moment they were locked in a stalemate, pushing against each other and grunting with the effort, with only the sounds of exertion because they had nothing left to say to each other.


This indicates parity in the most direct manner possible, despite her injuries, despite her mindset and despite Luke's bloodlust, she's capable of standing up to Luke's augmented strikes.  


Which begs the question of whether this “bloodlust”, as you put it, helps or hinders Luke. Is 'bloodlust' a avenue to a potential power that Luke may be hiding?  Is Lumiya stronger than Darth Vader? Is Lumiya even stronger than Palpatine? Should someone who has bad feats vs Mara Jade, Tresina Lobi and a telekinetic stalemate with Nelani Dinn, some random Jedi Knight, be considered a top tier candidate? 
 
Or perhaps, unlike TP and/or BM, contending with Luke isn’t a reliable proxy for power. 


If it was, every person I mentioned above could be scaled above Darth Sidious. 


If it isn't (and trust me here, it isn't) we can look at the last person Jacen fought with any real cross-era scaling for reference.... a rusty Aurra Sing. Which is a perfect segway into my next rebuttal, your Kyp comparison.


2B - Inb4 SW Becomes the Next Superhero Franchise



EC wrote:Luke pushing the offensive can be attributed to his “bloodlust” because of Luke witnessing Jacen torturing his Ben



As addressed, you need to prove why, at least in this case, more bloodlust = more power.  


Luke was bloodlusted against an injured Lumiya... it didn't stop her from matching his strength in a brief "stalemate" while both grunted in exertion.


Luke also described his emotional unbalancing regarding this scene; angered, saddened, and betrayed.  Emotions like these may enhance dark side adepts, and sith acolytes, but what do they do to someone who deliberately, continuously, and perhaps unconsciously holds back their power in fear of turning? Yeah, it probably hinders them.  


To argue that Luke is boosted well beyond his usual jobbing in this instance is to argue that this is where he opens himself up fully to the dark side and turns his emotions into a weapon. The point is, he's not doing that here. There would have been significant exposition around the fact. It's a big deal if Luke taps into the dark side, given his character. And as for the facts, the memory of this scene unbalances him. It's likely that experiencing it had a more intense effect.  


There is a wide spectrum concerning how powerful Luke can be on any given day.  According to FOTJ, it bottoms at around Cilghal level. This fight against Jacen happens to be one of his lower points. Therefore it says nothing of Jacen's ability to prolong the engagement.



EC wrote:For example, Jacen force-pushes Luke into a “durasteel wall”, and finds him “pinned” in place by use of TK by Jacen. As Luke tries to fight back, he still is “pinned” by Jacen with only one hand, sneering back at Luke, indicating he held the advantage. Though, this advantage is lost later into the battle, it shows that Jacen did contend with Luke



This omission of context is rather disturbing. Jacen pins him with a Vong torture device called the Embrace of Pain.  He hurls the Embrace at Luke, and the object’s momentum slams the Grandmaster to the wall.  You made it sound like Caedus telekinetically pinned Luke, which creates a completely new set of circumstances and has radically different implications.





EC wrote:Again, environmental strikes against Luke speaks on Jacen’s versatility for using the environment to gain an advantage, even against a clearly more powerful opponent in Luke.



Jacen certainly is quite good at prolonging his fights with shenanigans. Occasionally it’s his own skill, mostly it’s Luke’s emotional hindrance or his instability negatively affecting his senses. For example, he mistook lightning for TK, and ignored massive objects being hurled at him. Moreover, Jacen is familiar with the environment and the object used to trap Luke (the Embrace of Pain), which contains toxins that interfere with Luke’s ability to concentrate (use the force), and have the opposite effect on Jacen, a person who thrives on pain and uses the Embrace like a shower.


Caedus will have no such advantage against Revan in this fight however, as the rules stipulate that the fight takes place in an open field, and thus has no environment for Jacen to manipulate. Revan will be going all out from the very beginning in an attempt to kill the Sith wannabe, and Caedus doesn’t have much of a chance. 



EC wrote:As we established before, Jacen was able to hold his own against a bloodlusted Luke



And as we established before, Jacen was able to hold his own against an emotionally hindered Luke whose force powers cannot manifest and he does so by kicking unhealed ribs, breaking off the engagement after being cucked in 3 strikes, and injecting Luke with a venom that causes his head to spin (therefore hindering his connection to the force). When you add all of this up, Lumiya comes out much better, being able to stand up to Luke in a far more direct way, despite having far more disadvantages than Caedus (namely her physical, environmental, and mental ones). Give her all of Jacen’s advantages as well as a will to live and there’s no reason why she wouldn’t perform better than him. 



EC wrote:Jacen was able to hold his own against a bloodlusted Luke. Even after this, he has daily growth quotes establishing “he was growing closer to Luke’s strength by the day”



Inferno was the book in which Luke fought Caedus, the book that contains that quote comes before, not after the fight in Betrayal, thus proving your lack of knowledge of the continuity, or perhaps your lack of honesty. Not sure which to be honest. What else is this, you ask? Another misplaced opinion on Jacen’s part.



EC wrote:Jacen’s “opinions of his powers” are not “misplaced”, according to one of the authors of Legacy of the Force, Karen Traviss



I don’t give a damn what Karen Traviss says. The only person whose spoken interviews or unpublished notes are canon is Lucas himself. Karen Traviss in another interview claims that Jacen has an “excessively high opinion of himself”, thus contradicting this quote entirely. Furthermore, Jacen thinks he’s getting close to Luke in Betrayal, but then Jaina claims that they haven’t seen a fraction of what Luke can do, which is corroborated by Jacen in Revelation, in which he realizes “just how much power Luke could muster”. 



EC wrote:The reason that Jacen’s superiority of the council is important is because of Kyp Durron. Kyp Durron has many notable feats, the most famous one is being able to manipulate a Yuuzhan Vong Dovin Basal singularity



There it is, the one copy pasted argument from DC I've been waiting for.


The interesting thing here is that Jacen is a(n) [extremely] fallible narrator, as he shows in the example above. If he can misunderstand his power in relation to Luke’s, it stands to reason that he can do so in relation to others as well. The reason he doesn’t know the full extent of Luke’s power is because Luke is reluctant to display the full extent of it, and the same is true of Kyp:



Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?



Here's how I see it, and I doubt I’m alone on this. Giving Jacen Kyp's feats and accomplishments is an admission of a simple fact--Caedus has none.  If he did, you’d have found something relevant in one of the 9 books that are literally written about him, or perhaps the countless books featuring Jacen Solo before that.  So many feats of his across the NJO, DN, and LOTF, so many that his RT required two parts. So many feats, yet you still need Kyp Durron as a crutch to get by, with a comparison that probably doesn't work too. This is a declaration of defeat.  A declaration that all the memes that surfaced around Caedus' failures, weakness and limitations are legitimate and not just trolling.   



EC wrote:Furthermore, unlike the comparison drawn with Jacen and Kun, TK is one of the best comparisons of power in the force. 



If that’s true, then it means that Jacen can move Dovin Basals in Tempest. Then why does he struggle to paralyze Aurra Sing in the same book?  The latter is caught unaware, yet he needs all his energy, without any distractions whatsoever to keep her in stasis.  And when she does break free, she demonstrates parity, if not superiority, to Jacen by overpowering him in a bladelock. Moving a black hole becomes less special when everyone above Aurra Sing theoretically scales above it. Furthermore, characters that scale vastly above Aurra like Mace Windu have proclaimed their inability to TK a train, disproving this comparison entirely. Perhaps TK isn’t an accurate proxy for power as you claim it is, or perhaps Jacen doesn’t scale above Kyp. They both cannot be true. 



Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.


He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.


Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.


The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.


Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.


"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."


Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.


He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.


Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.


Sing kicked him in
He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.


The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his lightsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.




EC wrote:There are no TK feats available for Redeemed Revan, so we will use his superior 300-year-later iteration, Foundry Revan’s. Foundry Revan has a TK feat where we can draw an actual comparison from, he pulls 40 meteors from space, and they burst on impact



Not as good as moving a dovin basal, but still better than anything Jacen has done to date. Thanks for saving me all of the copy pasting. Furthermore, you’ve yet to prove that Revan on the Foundry is more powerful than Revan in KOTOR. There’s nothing that proves this, or even if there is, you’ve yet to show it, thus rendering this null and void. 




EC wrote:And finally, Jacen’s final duel with Luke-amped-Jaina is indicative of the tremendous growth he has accomplished. Convinced he was fighting Luke, Jacen thought it was Luke due to his enormous power, and Jacen knew exactly how powerful he was because of every encounter he had with Luke before, including being pinned to a chair by Luke himself. This shows that Luke-amped-Jaina is at least on par with the Luke he fought aboard the Anakin Solo. Jacen matches Luke-amped-Jaina despite the fact that he is tremendously injured, fighting “one-armed.” (link) . Which means Jacen against Luke-amped-Jaina scales far above Jacen against Bloodlust!Luke.

We’ve already established how weak Luke was at this point, demonstrating that Caedus is capable of beating somebody that seriously struggles with the likes of Lumiya. This doesn’t demonstrate any superiority to Revan, as contending with Luke isn’t a particularly accurate proxy for power, and Jacen doesn’t scale over Kyp. Fighting a force that’s equivalent to that of Bloodlusted/Hindered Luke and coming out on top isn’t impressive. 


3 - Conclusion



EC wrote:Here are the main points:




  • Exar Kun’s sith ritual feat and Jacen’s BM feat are not remotely comparable. 

  • Lumiya gets stomped by Bloodlust!Luke, while Jacen holds his own.
  • Jacen scales above Kyp Durron, who has significantly better TK feats than Revan, which is an accurate proxy for power. 
  • Jacen against Luke-amped-Jaina scales far above Jacen against Bloodlust!Luke.



All of the points you’ve made thus far have been either completely irrelevant, or just meme-tier bullshit. 


To reiterate:



  • Kun’s senate feat was not premeditated in any way, shape, or form, and it wasn’t a ritual.
  • Jacen’s feat on Fondor wasn’t BM, but rather TP.
  • Even if we decide to say that Kun’s Senate feat isn’t usable, Cinnagar puts him far above Caedus, and Revan is vastly beyond even that. 
  • Lumiya wasn’t stomped by Luke in his “bloodlusted”/hindered state, but rather competed with him in a far more direct way than Jacen did.
  • Jacen against Luke-Amped-Jaina shows nothing, as “Bloodlusted”/Hindered Luke is pressed by a sub-Vader foe. 



@EmperorCaedus: Nothing you’ve said has made an iota of sense, and nothing you’ve (attempted) to prove has worked. I’ll give you a chance to concede these arguments as you did at the beginning of your last post, and I’ll give you a chance to concede this SS before you humiliate yourself with astounding mental gymnastics once more. 

@xolthol @BoD @The Count of Conundrums @DC77 (Reborn) @Deronn_Solo

Sorry if you guys didn't want to be tagged, just figured since you posted it in the thread it made sense/


Last edited by IG (Exists) on January 11th 2020, 8:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
MasterCilghal
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on January 11th 2020, 4:28 pm
Well done IG, hopefully the Kyp scaling will be put to rest.
IG
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on January 11th 2020, 8:03 pm
Had to edit because of an image issue.
Sjuttiosju
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on January 12th 2020, 1:00 pm
Awful post, never read anything with quite as much BS in my life tbh. But oh well, I'm not allowed to address any of it because it's not my SS. For fucks sake.
IG
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on January 12th 2020, 1:03 pm
Lmao. Ouch man, I thought we were (not friends, but still).
Sjuttiosju
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on January 12th 2020, 1:07 pm
We are friends, that's just not a free pass to me praising whatever you shit out of your ass.
IG
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on January 12th 2020, 1:08 pm
:philmm:
MasterCilghal
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on January 12th 2020, 1:37 pm
IG vs DC super fight V

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Ziggy
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on January 12th 2020, 3:04 pm
Someone deleted my post. probably because of Language.  

But anyway, IG hammered home all the correct points and defanged the opposition.  Well done. 

DC shouldn't be so quick to dismiss something because it's anti Caedus.
IG
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on January 12th 2020, 3:05 pm
MasterCilghal
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on January 12th 2020, 3:07 pm
@Ziggy wrote:DC shouldn't be so quick to dismiss something because it's anti Caedus.

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus) vs Revan (IG) - Page 2 1289255181

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Dolph
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on January 12th 2020, 3:07 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:IG vs DC super fight V
Nope not happening. 

This will be the last Caedus vs Revan debate for a while.
Sjuttiosju
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on January 12th 2020, 3:19 pm
@Ziggy:

DC shouldn't be so quick to dismiss something because it's anti Caedus.

I've never been quick to dismiss your arguments as shit (Which are much more anti-Caedus than anything presented here), unless I was feigning confidence. I have a lot of respect for people even when their opinions differ from my own, I just don't think this post was of particularly strong quality.
The lord of hunger
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on January 13th 2020, 6:23 pm
fair post
Dolph
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on March 1st 2020, 2:18 am
I have talked with @IG in PMs and I have been granted an extension due to my increasingly demanding schedule as of late.
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