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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

on May 4th 2019, 12:15 am
While I love ILS whole heartedly and I am always rolling my eyes at how many strength feats Maul has, it's getting kind of stupid don't you think? I mean Maul is legit physically stronger than Vader by feats, absurd.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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on May 4th 2019, 12:37 am
Excellent rebuttal. You've successfully merged the old school, more tactics-based, toned down debating style with my autistic scaling style. I think this post will be a trend-setter.
Sjuttiosju
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on May 4th 2019, 5:40 am
Holy shit that post was good.
NotAA3
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on May 4th 2019, 7:37 am
Excellent post.
xolthol
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on May 6th 2019, 1:23 am
Good post.
Sjuttiosju
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on May 17th 2019, 3:31 pm
If Skillz doesn't post I'm going to an hero.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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on May 17th 2019, 4:00 pm
Me and ILS already discussed the situation in PM’s. Due to the fact that the debate coincided with college finals which took up the bulk (all) of my time, I’ll have my post up by Sunday night. If not, then it’s an auto-loss.
Master Azronger
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

on May 19th 2019, 10:11 am
I sense it will arrive within 12 hours.
NotAA3
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on May 19th 2019, 11:25 am
Your senses better be right.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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on May 19th 2019, 11:37 am
SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 228124001
The Lost
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on May 19th 2019, 12:15 pm
Skillz can have another 3 days starting now if he needs them. He has until May 22nd 11:59pm in American time.
Sjuttiosju
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

on May 22nd 2019, 5:24 pm
I can feel the arrival of greatness, it's so close...

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 4037459623
NotAA3
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on May 22nd 2019, 6:17 pm
I can't. Skillz won't post and ILS will win by default.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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on May 23rd 2019, 1:01 am

The Math of Darth Maul


I’m first going to address the argument you bring up for Maul that serves as the crux of your scaling chain. You’d have me believe that 17 year old Maul came close to killing 37 BBY Sheev:

Sheev only fought defensively with a training saber and didn’t want to kill Maul - but it doesn’t change the fact Maul pushed Sheev back with blows he barely deflected, and came close to killing him.

Yet you neglect to point out that your own quote reads:

I realize then that he [Sheev] has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

So yes, Sheev was nearly killed by Maul and could barely deflect his blows...while the former was only beginning to tap into his reserves, not to mention the qualifiers you mentioned like Sheev only fighting defensively with a training saber and not wanting to kill Maul. When we add the quote you aptly brought up from Shadow Conspiracy:


Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

We’re left with...what, exactly? You haven’t established a meaningful connection between 37 BBY Sheev and 17 year old Maul beyond him  being able to sustain a brief assault against the Emperor while the latter was hardly trying, and that the red freak would have been considered worse than useless had he performed any worse than he did. I’m not seeing how the scaling for 37 BBY Sheev or even the scaling leading up to him remotely applies to Maul. Where it falls apart even more is when we take a look at the actual Strength/Speed/TK scaling for Maul you brought up. Let’s take a look:

Plagueis + Venamis in 67 BBY


The droid 11-4D can track the trajectories of blaster bolts and respond instantaneously to danger, yet, it viewed Plagueis’ movements as a blur or gust of wind.


Plagueis and Venamis’ fight would have appeared like lightning flashing through a forest, in other words, as if they were rapidly teleporting despite the rough obstacle-ridden terrain.


Plagueis smashes transparisteel.


With a kick Plagueis sends a Zabrak across a cabin snapping his spine and crushing his chest.


The baseline of your scaling is bested by Darth Marr moving so fast as to literally appear to be teleporting to the likes of Darth Lachris (versus a dime a dozen quote from the perspective of unidentified onlookers and a droid that could track Plagueis “once it adjusted the input rate of its photoreceptors”):


"Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. 'I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it.'
'I see no reason to.'
In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.
'You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken,' his voice thundered behind her."

―Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Price of Power


A powerful Sith Lord with a despotic temperament, Darth Lachris has never failed in war. Her successes in the Empire’s battles have brought her to Balmorra, where she faces the challenge of putting down a resistance that has remained one step ahead of the military since the fight for the planet began. Darth Lachris is sharp and wary, expecting a scheme behind every action her enemies take. Trained by Dark Council member Darth Marr, she is a warrior at heart with an embittered understanding of political necessity–and a lust for all the galaxy’s bloody pleasures. -SWTOR Codex Entry


Or Padawan Kun slapping around his lightsaber with such force that it was audible for kilometers (versus kicking a non-force sensitive really hard and smashing transparisteel with multiple force blows):

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 4249189-heard%20for%20kilometers:

We can quibble about which of these feats are more or less impressive, but the fact is that your baseline isn’t exactly starting out strong compared to relative feebs such as Darth Marr or padawan Kun. This serves as a microcosm of the entire scaling chain, but let’s continue:

52 BBY Sheev + Plagueis


For 600 years leading up to 54BBY, the Banite Sith undertook the Kursid rite of having the Sith Master and apprentice non-lethally defeat hundreds of Kursid warriors with force pikes. The Kursids evolved marginally in terms of tech over the years. Each repetition of this rite would become marginally more impressive.

A Banite Master and apprentice 600 years before 54BBY Plagueis can onetap hundreds without being hit. Sheev and Plagueis also did this.


Plagueis and Sheev bumrushing hundreds of primitive warriors armed with axes, arrows, and spears as a means to “test the limits” of Sheev’s “speed, agility, and accuracy” without being touched is pretty damn impressive. Almost as impressive as the Emperor’s Wrath carving a bloody path of destruction through one thousand of the Republic’s most elite soldiers on Balmorra, including commander Rylon’s legendary squad of soldiers at the start of Act 1:

"An incursion into the Arms Factory will be a monumental feat. I'm excited by the prospect of you laying waste to that place. The Republic command center is deep inside the Arms Factory, the most heavily protected installation on the planet. In order to reach Commander Rylon, you will have to make your way past all of the factory's defenses - which are considerable. Stationed inside are an estimated one thousand of the Republic's best trained soldiers. Specifically, Rylon's elite squadron is responsible for some of the most precise, improbable resistance victories on Balmorra. They're legendary. It will be a bright day on Balmorra when they are eliminated."
―Malavai Quinn (Star Wars: The Old Republic)


"It must look like anything but a targeted execution - annihilate everyone there."
―Darth Baras (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

"...the factory is under attack. Headquarters has been breached and casualties are severe. Target is carving a bloody path to this direction. Unconfirmed reports suggest it's Sith."
―Captian Eligyn (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

While you may argue the Wrath didn’t necessarily take on all of these soldiers at once and could have utilized force powers, it's worth noting that:
The Wrath slaughters the Republic base fast enough that Captain Eligyn doesn’t know the nature of their attacker until the Wrath is on his doorstep and has cleared the base.
These Republic soldiers are far deadlier than the primitive Kursids, given their vastly superior weaponry and training, and there’s more of them to boot.
It’s stated Sidious and Plagueis only directly engaged two or three warriors at any one time once they reached them:


To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

4. We don’t really know how long it took Plagueis and Sidious to perform the feat, and it’s ultimately a shared feat between the two.

Even giving the benefit of the doubt to Plagueis or Sidious individually here, this is Act 1 Wrath we’re talking about. Not exactly the measuring stick Maul wants to be a part of in this fight, and like I mentioned earlier, I see no reason to believe Maul scales from the Sheev and Plagueis duo.


Plagueis and Sheev took turns orbiting and defending eachother as they deflected omnidirectional blaster fire from a series of concentric rings of droids numbering 200. The droids were of a wide variety of models, boasting a wide variety of blaster types.


This feat is nebulous at best, irrelevant at worst. We don’t know how many rings of droids there were, nor how many droids were in each individual ring. It’s not like Sheev was being shot at by hundreds of droids simultaneously, it could have been 20, 15, or even 10 at a time.    

As for the growth of Plagueis and Sheev from 52 BBY to 32 BBY, you simply haven’t provided any solid evidence that Maul scales from them. There’s ultimately nothing to really respond to here, Plagueis and Sidious did have significant growth during that time period, but it’s a waste of space in this argument more than anything else.

I already addressed the “Maul nearly bested Sheev” argument, so I’ll move on to your arguments for Maul’s growth past that point:


Also, in his journal, Maul states he was "only beginning to taste the dark power of a Sith" shortly after this fight (still at the age of 17).


Irrelevant to actual growth.


Maul spent any free time he had meditating and training, which always left him feeling stronger than before.


It says it always left Maul feeling stronger, much in the same way sleeping for 8 hours always leaves me feeling more refreshed. It doesn’t mean Maul’s power grows every time he meditates.


Maul in his fight with Jinn and Kenobi, up to that point, had never fought better. His particular hatred for the Jedi drove him further, but even without that, he was better than he ever was before.


Even at the climax of the battle he seemed “fresh as ever” - Maul can summon more power in TPM, without tapping deeply into his reserves, than at any point prior including when he “nearly bested” 37BBY Sheev, back when he was “only beginning to taste the dark power of a Sith.”


I’m sorry, but this is baffling to me. Your quote says:


Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex.


It’s basically saying TPM Maul is the strongest Maul up to that point. That does NOT mean the lesser reserves he was tapping into to against the duo > any level of power he brought to bear prior, not that it really matters given the lackluster evidence for Maul’s impressiveness up to this point. Furthermore, that you used this argument means you’ve shot yourself in the foot with the 17 yo Maul vs Sheev comparison, given Sheev was barely tapping into his reserves.


In TCW, Sheev fought harder against Maul than ever before (“But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.”) Yet Maul is able to respond to his blows, and no mention is made of Sheev being too fast to follow or track at this stage.


Except...we know from the end of the fight that Sheev was holding back immensely based on his gargantuan increase in speed, and that he wasn’t actually trying to kill Maul:

https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=282

And even when Sheev was heavily holding back, Maul still “found himself in awe of Sidious” during the initial part of the duel, and he and Savage were both plastered against the wall with no ability to resist further until Sheev let up and entertained a duel. Here’s Dave Filoni’s thoughts on the matter as well:


Well, that was definitely one of our biggest challenges, Maul and Savage versus Sidious, because we wanted to have an epic lightsaber fight. We hadn’t really had a big one in awhile, and I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.


At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him. He had to be the strongest, most dangerous guy. And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.


https://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2

Sheev could more or less ragdoll and dominate Maul whenever he felt like it. You keep trying to tie Maul’s impressiveness to Sheev, but there is an incomprehensibly seismic gap between the two. Sheev pouncing on an opening in Maul’s guard does not preclude any of this, nor can we connect it in any coherent way with TPM Maul’s perception of Sidious’ speed in TPM.

Arcann is not doing shit with TK. He lacks the skill to create the necessary opening in Maul’s guard and he lacks the power to brute force Maul’s defences. Maul is more skilled and more powerful than Arcann, so he could even crush Arcann’s windpipe ala Obi-Wan if he doesn’t gut him first.


You certainly haven’t managed to substantiate any of this.


Skillz tacitly conceded depth and breadth of Force knowledge, training quality, lightsaber skill and accolades of any description to TPM Maul without resistance by ignoring my first post. He made his methodology clear:


Huh? It’s the only methodology that makes sense: you know, looking at what they were actually able to do with their force knowledge, training quality, lightsaber skill, and accolades instead of trying to mindlessly cobble together some calculus of what they should be. It never works in practice, especially when we’re comparing two characters across two different eras with no direct connection.


The fact skillz went as far as to suggest Arcann would shit on Maul is laughable. With all of the feats/scaling for Venamis, Tenebrous, Plagueis and Sheev outlined, Maul pushing back and nearly killing 37BBY!Sheev before a huge increase in power by TPM, and another profound increase by TCW wherein he performed admirably against CW Sheev… this is simply better than anything you could possibly outline for Arcann.


Challenge accepted.
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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on May 23rd 2019, 1:03 am

Rebuttals to Rebuttals


This will also serve as my section where I provide new Arcann feats and scaling, along with expansion on previously mentioned lines of scaling.

There is no reason to doubt the veracity of the "Fact" Files, which per the article I linked are said to contain "Facts" and "Information". So this argument without evidence is dismissed.

That the in-universe Fact Files claim to present “facts and information” does not preclude it from scrutiny, much like how a history textbook presenting “facts and information” does not make it inscrutable. Ultimately this point is moot given you haven’t argued or proven Maul relates to TPM Windu or Yoda in any way.

1. It’s an assumption that Dooku had "an aptitude of the force far superior to that of Maul"
2. Dooku "rapidly developing his abilities" was attributed to what Sheev taught him, per earlier quotes. Dooku having prerequisite attributes which enhanced the rate at which he grew is conjecture.
3. The Banites delved into all aspects of the Force including the Jedi arts, and Maul was trained by Sheev to push his "Force abilities to the extreme.", to be "strong in every way", trained in "all forms of the Sith arts"/"all types of Sith ways"/"trained in [Sidious'] likeness" and as a legitimate Banite Sith who could temporarily break the Rule of Two. The idea Maul’s "depth of knowledge" is not "even approaching that of Dooku" then, is laughable.

1. Perhaps aptitude is the wrong word here, but Dooku’s grasp and knowledge of the force as a nigh-unprecedentedly prodigious 70 year old Jedi Master is a vastly stronger baseline than Maul starting from the ground up. Hell, as I pointed out in post 1, Dooku when he was recruited was already more powerful than TPM Maul. There’s also the confounding variable of the dark side (which Gillard has referred to as “Force LSD”) that makes me question if Sidious’ training is the only thing that facilitated Dooku’s substantial growth, much less how it applies to Maul.

2. Isn’t it conjecture to argue Maul is privy to the same level of growth Dooku is given their vastly different starting points and levels of experience under Sidious?

3. Dooku was actually trained by the best of the Jedi and had access to the Jedi archives, and decades upon decades to study the force, which can’t be compared to Maul’s starting point. As aforementioned, his starting point under Sidious surpasses Maul’s ending point, we can’t compare Maul to Sith Dooku in any meaningful way here.

Ultimately, the point is moot if you can’t satisfactorily substantiate the end product in practice. People with less power, experience and knowledge than Dooku have given prime Maul hell, (Kenobi in particular).

Character opinions are fallible, so there is no proof HoT is superior to every Jedi, and you didn’t show feats for any of these Jedi.

Character opinions are fallible, but given it’s corroborated by multiple characters multiple times, Satele in particular actually having met barsen’thor and being aware of her power, I think it carries enough weight for you to not be able to dismiss it out of hand. It’s even corroborated by the SWTORE. The Jedi strike team sent to capture the Emperor was comprised of the strongest and most resolute jedi in the order:

With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side. The Jedi do not realize that they have underestimated the true extent of the Emperor's power. It is an error that will cost them dearly.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

And the Hero of Tython was the most powerful amongst them, as evidenced by his superior resistance against Vitiate’s power:

https://youtu.be/bq5X3F3g69c?t=575

As for the Barsen’thor feats, here’s her throwing a nigh-bus sized chunk of metal one or two hundred feet at the start of Act 1:

https://youtu.be/Z5IwR52UPB4?t=264

And casually crunching an enormous blast door like Play-Doh (also at the start of Act 1):

https://youtu.be/Z5IwR52UPB4?t=684

This was after ‘Thor used the shielding technique to free Yuon Par from Lord Vivicar’s influence, which sapped her strength significantly:

I feel...so much better. But why do you look so weak? What did you do?

I shielded you from the person who was making you ill, but it took some of my strength. -Yuon Par and Barsen’thor

https://youtu.be/7g0FwUNgGXs?t=1240

The Barsen’thor would use this healing technique 5 more times in Act 1, sapping more of her strength each time:

https://youtu.be/Z5IwR52UPB4?t=1220
You’ve saved me, at great cost to yourself. I can feel it.

https://youtu.be/XizWzitpQKo?t=1590

I feel...better. Much better. Wait, you, you--you look pale. Are you alright?

https://youtu.be/9LIu5eMusSg?t=1058

https://youtu.be/oCzssn8eNxA?t=1510

I don’t understand. My mind is clear again, and you’re...weak.

https://youtu.be/sjciPHddNok?t=368

Keep in mind that this weakening the Barsen’thor experiences is cumulative, because she has to maintain the shielding of each Jedi to protect them from Vivicar’s influence. This is evidenced by Yuon noting that the shielding given to her at the start of Act 1 is still present at the end of Act 1:

There are risks. For one, the shielding you gave me on Coruscant will be severed. I don’t know what will happen then. It’s possible I could die once your shield is gone.

https://youtu.be/sjciPHddNok?t=182

After having weakened herself repeatedly via the shielding technique, Barsen’thor confronts Lord Vivicar on his flagship. Lord Vivicar is the Sith responsible for dominating the wills of these Jedi, and even Nomi Sunrider is unaware how a Jedi as powerful as Yuon could be mind controlled:

”This illness you’ve described--it’s more like a kind of mind control.”

“How could anyone control the mind of such a powerful jedi?"

“Well, you could ask…[the Noetikon of Secrets]” -Barsen’thor and Nomi Sunrider

Vivicar crushes Yuon’s will as soon as she exposes her presence to him:

https://youtu.be/sjciPHddNok?t=227

See how Yuon’s will crumbles before mine. Fitting, that two of my enemies will destroy each other -Lord Vivicar

Vivicar performs this will-crumbling mind control on hundreds of Jedi Masters:

https://youtu.be/sjciPHddNok?t=1010

The plague binds these masters to me. Hundreds of them. The heart and soul of your order.

Vivicar claims his battle with the Barsen’thor has been decided before she even stepped aboard, because he is able to siphon and channel the power of these hundreds of Jedi Masters, musing that it would soon make him the most powerful force adept in galactic history:

This battle was decided before you stepped aboard.

I’m tired of your delusions, explain yourself.

My plague isn’t just a disease. It siphons power from its victims. With the proper rituals, that power can be channeled. Soon, the combined strength of your Masters will make me the most powerful force adept who has ever lived! -Lord Vivicar and Barsen’thor, End of Act 1

Despite being immensely weakened from the shielding technique, Barsen’thor manages to defeat Vivicar (who in reality is the ancient Sith Lord Terrhak Morrhage) whilst he siphons the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters, and Barsen’thor uses the shielding technique one last time to rip Terrhak Morrhage’s soul from the body he was possessing:

https://youtu.be/sjciPHddNok?t=1062

At this point, the Barsen’thor likely regains the rest of her power because she no longer has to shield the Masters from Morrhage. This is the point when the HoT starts to receive his numerous accolades of being the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy, with ‘Thor receiving zero.

Just because for a time they fought to a “standstill” does not mean they are equals, any more than this quote proves Jinn and Maul were equal...Scourge taking a knee after the fight proves he lost.

Fight that seems like a standstill =/= Fight that is confirmed to be two people fighting to a standstill where one of the fighters “breaks off the battle for some reason.” Scourge taking a knee is him breaking off the fight and allowing the HoT to pass without the Emperor getting suspicious. If Scourge didn’t feign defeat and just let the HoT pass, Vitiate would slaughter him. If anything, it’s more likely that Scourge is superior to HoT at this point, given the HoT buys Scourge’s assessment that the latter could have killed the former on Quesh (which is in the middle of Act 2) had he wanted:

“More guards will come. Shall we go before they arrive?”

“Free Master Tol Braga and my fellow Jedi, and I’ll consider it.”

“If they were here, I would have liberated them as well. I could have killed you on Quesh, had I wanted. Do you never wonder why I hesitated? I have waited over three hundred years to see the face that came to me in a vision. Your face.”

“You could’ve told me this on Quesh, or in your master’s fortress.” -Lord Scourge and HoT, end of Act 2

Scourge’s feat of stalemating Act 2 HoT and his likely superiority to him both stand. The scaling at this point looks something like:

Lord Scourge >/~ Act 2 HoT > Act 1 Barsen’thor >> Act 1 Barsen’thor (weakened) > Lord Vivicar ~ controlling/binding/channeling the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters.

And this is just the beginning.

You gave zero feats for Scourge.

Lies. SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 4037459623


This doesn’t stack up to Maul, not even close.

Lies. SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 4037459623


Also, Vitiate’s skills as a fighter are woeful, which no doubt helped the HoT win the fight aside from a simple power comparison.

I’d like to see you substantiate Vitiate having woeful fighting skills as of SWTOR, especially given he actually carries a lightsaber this time around and the skills he displays while possessing Surro.

HoT only needed to be strong enough to resist Vitiate’s powers and close the gap, which really says nothing about the HoT’s abilities outside of his ability to do just that.

It’s a direct comparison of the power Act 3 HoT possesses in relation to Scourge, and thus Act 2 HoT, at this point in time. Speaking of which, I’m going to elaborate on the feat the HoT performs on Dromund Kaas, because frankly it’s one of the most absurd performances in all of Star Wars. The nexus of Dromund Kaas is potent enough during FOTJ to drive Kyle Katarn to the dark side, completely block the senses of Vestara, Ben Skywalker and Jaina Solo, and clog the reflexes of Grandmaster Luke and Jaina to the point where they were unsure if they could defeat 12 Sith Sabers (all quotes from FOTJ: Ascension):

"We need to watch one another closely. If Master Katarn could be swayed, then any of us could. Not just Vestara.”

Luke stood for a moment, his eyes and other senses searching the landscape. “Anyone sense anything?”
Ben extended himself in the Force, both opening himself to the vile sensation of the dark side and utilizing his senses—even smell, temporarily at least—to gather what information he could.
“Other than the obvious, which is a metric ton of dark-side energy, I can’t sense anything,” Jaina said.

“It’s…so strong,” Vestara breathed. Ben glanced over at her. Her brown eyes were wide, and her voice was a mixture of horror and attraction.
“Vestara,” Luke said, sharply but not angrily, and she blinked as if coming out of a daze. “Do you sense any signs of the Sith or Abeloth?”
She shook her head, looking more like her usual alert self. “No. That nexus pretty much drowns out anything else.”

Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was that they were being reinforced by the emanations of the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies.

The Dark Temple is likely the most powerful nexus on Dromund Kaas, designed to contain and focus immense dark side energies, and home to innumerable sith spirits. The dark forces within the Temple are so powerful that they threaten the capital city:

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 2019-010

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 2019-05-22

In order to reach the Emperor, the Hero first has to fight through the Imperial Guards sent to protect Vitiate and the hordes of deranged sith pervading the temple. The Imperial guard are the ultimate non-force sensitive fighters with a direct telepathic link with Vitiate himself:

The ultimate non-Force sensitive fighters in the Empire serve the Emperor and the Emperor alone. Although most citizens know them as protectors of the Sith Academy on Korriban and the sanctum of the Citadel on Dromund Kaas, the guardsmen’s mandate takes them wherever the Emperor requires. Even the Dark Council has neither control nor oversight of the guard’s activities. Clad in blood-red robes and armor, Imperial Guardsmen serve for life. Chosen for duty and initiated through deadly tests and traditions, those too old for active duty become instructors for the next generation until their skills deteriorate to the point where they are inevitably slain by a new recruit during training. Fanatic in loyalty and unmatched in martial skill, even a lone Imperial Guard is a formidable opponent capable of standing toe-to-toe with a Jedi… or a Sith, should the occasion arise. -SWTOR Codex

Before the Emperor’s apparent demise, the Empire’s greatest non-Force-sensitive combatants were selected for the Imperial Guard to serve and defend the Emperor himself. But being selected and developing into a guardsman were two different matters entirely. The Emperor chose worlds strong in the dark side for his academies–locations where his influence was strongest, where he could form a bond with his would-be guardsmen. In these academies, the candidates would undergo a relentless, merciless training regimen that included regularly scheduled battles to the death. Regardless of what kind of person entered an Imperial Guard academy, if they survived they would emerge as a honed-to-perfection killing machine molded to the Emperor’s will.-SWTOR Codex

The Hero dissipates his energy further by saving his companion before confronting the Emperor, also giving the Emperor more time to recover and gather his power:

https://youtu.be/2pwPRbwaT2A?t=38

You dissipated your energies saving the weak. There are consequences. -Vitiate

https://youtu.be/jgMLA_vR0vM?t=538

You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are all fortunate to be alive. -Lord Scourge

So Act 3 HoT is able to fight hordes of Sith and Imperial Guards through a psychic sewage of dark side energy so profound that it could give Grandmaster Luke Skywalker and numerous other powerful Jedi pause, weakening the HoT while all his foes would be greatly fueled. After giving the Emperor more time to recover and further dissipating his energies saving his companion, the HoT still overcomes a being in Vitiate who Scourge believed he had no hope of resisting the direct influence of, even though he would be heavily fueled by the focusing energies of the temple as well. You haven’t brought forth anything on Maul’s part that comes close to matching:

Act 3 HoT (full power) >/>> Act 3 HoT (weakened and dissipated energy) > Emperor Vitiate (given extra time to recover) > Emperor Vitiate (weakened) >> Lord Scourge (amped by DT) > Lord Scourge (Act 2) >/~ Act 2 HoT > Act 1 Barsen’thor >> Act 1 Barsen’thor (weakened) > Lord Vivicar ~ controlling/binding/channeling the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters.

And this is just the beginning.

I do not give a shit about Scourge’s opinion on HoT’s potential, and you can’t prove how much of it is actualised. Nothing in my first post mentioned Maul’s potential and also you yourself disparaged the idea that potential is a worthwhile metric to use - everything you just said is meaningless per both our standards.

Wat? The premise is that the HoT’s child would have the potential to be the most powerful force user in Galactic History if trained in the dark side based on the actualized power of the HoT. Scourge is more or less telling the HoT “if you embraced the dark side, you would be the most powerful being in the history of the galaxy, but you won’t, so I’ll have to train your child.” Regardless, this is one of the less relevant points of contention.

I see no reason to think the HoT is "every bit the prodigy that Darth Maul is", your unsourced tangent noted.Darth Maul was selected and trained by Sheev to be an heir to the Banites, and unlike Scourge, Sheev had the ability to judge potential with more accuracy than the "crude" midichlorian tester which the Jedi used. He knew Maul was strong enough to inherit his mantle and trained him accordingly. Darth Bane and Darth Venamis, whose feats I can/have detailed at length, were said by Plagueis to be "anachronisms", so let’s just say that even if we want to play the "potential" game, which my argument is not reliant on, Maul would still win easily.

The evidence is literally the argument directly preceding your response to this one. though again, one of the less relevant points of contention based on both our methodologies here.


Time gaps do not indicate growth. You have not given a source for any on the HoT’s part. Him being a battlemaster is an accolade on par with titans such as Drallig, Katarn and Kas’im, so there’s that?


The main growth occurs on Rishi, right before SOR, when the HoT is visited by the spirit of Orgus Din. Din reminds the HoT of memories that he has suppressed since Act 2: his time under the Emperor’s influence and training. Din offers to bring these memories to the surface to make the HoT whole and regain what he learned under Vitiate’s tutelage:

https://youtu.be/0toqLsFhb2o?t=381


It was about healing a scar you’ve almost forgotten. One that still aches inside you.

The Emperor.

You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you, you pushed the memories of his training down deep. I can bring those memories back. You’re strong enough to handle them; let the Light cure them and make you whole. -Orgus Din and HoT, Rishi


Beyond making his mind whole, they are also memories of “power”, a “weapon” the HoT can wield:


My memories of that time are power. That power is my right and my weapon. I claim it. -HoT, Rishi


This alone is a significant boost from Act 3 HoT, and I think you’re being intellectually dishonest if you believe the HoT’s conflicts with Soa, the Terror From Beyond, Dread Masters, Revan, and the Emperor on Ziost didn’t serve to strengthen him from Act 3 to KOTFE, though it doesn’t really matter.


Your claim: “Emperor Vitiate focused all his power in one vessel, remotely, and this possessed host had a level of power worth giving a shit about”

Your evidence: Conjecture based on what Lana wanted HoT to do, the asinine idea that Vitiate focusing on an entire city somehow limits his attention to one host, and the implication that Vitiate had no other pawns to possess or objectives to split his attention other than the dozen or so soldiers that ran into the room with Surro? And the unsupported assumption that Vitiate was channelling a relevant amount of his undivided power into this vessel? Why is it not possible that Vitiate did not or could not manifest even close to his full power in this vessel? We do not know how powerful the Surro vessel was and you have no way to quantify its power.


This isn’t arguable. It’s confirmed in the SWTOR codex that the electrostatic weapon cut Vitiate off from all the pawns he was controlling sans Surro, who the HoT freed by beating Vitiate out of her:


With the help of Lana Beniko and Theron Shan, you have freed Master Surro of the former Sith Emperor's hold, U]and appear to have severed his tie to the Imperial and Republic forces in and around New Adasta.
However, a war still rages and the former Emperor is not yet defeated. -SWTOR Codex

I’m not necessarily arguing that Vitiate is channeling his unbridled power through Surro, rather that the power he is channeling through this lone vessel (which means he’s focused on nothing other than killing the HoT) is greater than the massively divided power he’s exerting when, say, conjuring monoliths while possessing innumerable hosts.

Anything here that isn’t sourced is dismissed. If Vitiate is conjuring hordes of monoliths, this hurts your conjecture that he gave undivided focus when fighting through Surro.

Vitiate conjures the monoliths earlier on, when he was weaker and dividing his attention amongst far more individuals. Vitiate begins conjuring monoliths at this point:

https://youtu.be/AlqvuQzVixw?t=816

Extremely strong, next to impossible to kill. The one you just defeated is the smallest we’ve come across.

And Tenebrae is continuously growing stronger:

The man now called Vitiate by those who once served him was not strong enough to usurp all life on Yavin 4 after his reawakening. However, he did gain power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive. Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour--what now? When will his unforgiving depletion of Ziost end? And when it does end, what fate will befall the rest of the galaxy?

The syntax does not necessitate that the Outlander is Valk’s "most powerful opponent [ever]", it just says that he is his most powerful opponent. Also the Outlander can be a non-Force user, which begs the question what it means by "most powerful" - certainly not Force power.

Like I said, this isn’t really essential to my argument.

Source for this growth? Also, Arcann chaining Force attacks into combat and finding openings is not the same as penetrating one’s Force defences outright, and by the end of a losing duel where one’s reserves are wearing thin it becomes easier to penetrate those defences. Arcann did not "casually" pull the Outlander onto his blade, he did so after wearing him down.

It’s good that you plan to explain properly why we should care about Arcann, because from where I’m sitting, I don’t see how his skill with blocking lightning is going to help him survive against Maul, who never chooses to employ the ability.

Firstly, Tutaminis is more or less synonymous with raw power, as Revan’s handling and redirection of Nyriss’ lightning is:

Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.
Source: The Essential Reader’s Companion

As mentioned in post 1, Outlander had experience using Valkorion’s power by the time he fought Arcann, unleashing energies absurdly beyond his own ability to summon, without any sign of his body deteriorating. After his bout with Arcann in Chapter 8, he went into a coma and was hospitalized for two days because the power he brought to bear against Arcann completely tore apart his body:

Easy, Easy. Your body went through quite the ordeal. We weren’t sure you were ever going to wake up.

Weird thing is we couldn’t find a scratch on you, not even inside.

I used Valkorion’s power to fight Arcann. It was...stressful. -Lana, Koth, Outlander; KOTFE Chapter 8

This is remarkably similar to when Luke and Palpatine draw on power beyond their midichlorians’ ability to handle, but I’d argue this case is far more profound given the results. Essentially, Arcann was tanking power beyond the absolute limits of the Outlander’s potential for a minute straight and tanked the impact with little to no damage. At this point we have:

Arcann ~< Valklander >>>> HoTlander (solo) >/>> Act 3 HoT (full power) >/>> Act 3 HoT (weakened and dissipated energy) > Emperor Vitiate (given extra time to recover) > Emperor Vitiate (weakened) >> Lord Scourge (amped by DT) > Lord Scourge (Act 2) >/~ Act 2 HoT > Act 1 Barsen’thor >> Act 1 Barsen’thor (weakened) > Lord Vivicar ~ controlling/binding/channeling the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters. The gap between Arcann and vanilla HoT is so absurd that Arcann is able to dominate a more powerful version of him in Chapter 8 barely using his full reserves, given he still had enough left in the tank to meet his raw power with Valklander. Nothing you’ve brought to the table for Maul has stood the test of scrutiny in relation to this scaling. Arcann flattens Maul. SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 228124001

Proof?

Above. SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 228124001
LadyKulvax
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on May 23rd 2019, 2:05 am
SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 Ii7n5xdidkad
Sjuttiosju
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on May 23rd 2019, 3:11 am
^^^
xolthol
xolthol
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on May 23rd 2019, 4:51 am
Great post.
NotAA3
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on May 23rd 2019, 2:42 pm
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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on May 23rd 2019, 8:38 pm
The Cosmic Force wrote:I can't. Skillz won't post and ILS will win by default.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS) - Page 2 1668617588
LadyKulvax
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on June 18th 2019, 8:45 pm
Pretty sure three weeks is an auto-concession.
Meatpants
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on June 18th 2019, 10:29 pm
Unfortunate.
LadyKulvax
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on June 18th 2019, 10:33 pm
Tbh, Skillz' last post kinda murdered him.
Meatpants
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on June 18th 2019, 11:04 pm
Up
The Lost
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on June 19th 2019, 4:07 am
Real life comes first unfortunately.
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