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Dolph
Dolph
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If Darth Caedus is a 100... Empty If Darth Caedus is a 100...

on November 12th 2019, 6:39 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Took some inspiration from @The Ellimist
(Not in ant particular order)

Grandmaster Luke
Sheev Palpatine (Dark Empire)
Darth Vader (Knightfall)
Revan (SoR)
Darth Krayt (reborn)
Mace Windu
Darth Wyyrlok
Darth Tyrannus
Darth Vader (RotJ)
Starkiller (TFU II)
Yoda (RotS)
Obi-Wan Kenobi (RoTS)
Exar Kun
Darth Bane
Darth Maul (SoD)
Darth Malgus
Satele Shan
The Hero of Tython (outlander)
Kit Fisto
Ven Zallow
Valkorion
Arcann
Vaylin(unchained)
Darth Malak (SF)
Kyle Katarn 
Corran Horn
Darish Vol
Lord Nyax
Jaina Solo

Roughly speaking, 50% higher means you can utterly dominate a fight. 2x gap would be enough to blitz the way Sidious blitzed the B-team. 10% gap would give you a noticeable advantage, but you'd still struggle. 20% gap would have you consistently winning with moderate difficulty. I'm not sure if it's calibrated well to that though.
BreakofDawn
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on November 12th 2019, 7:25 pm
Grandmaster Luke = 250.
Sheev Palpatine (Dark Empire) = 225.
Darth Vader (Knightfall) = 175.
Revan (SoR) = 160.
Darth Krayt (reborn) = 150.
Mace Windu = If prime, 180-190. If AOTC, 120-130.
Darth Wyyrlok = 130.
Darth Tyrannus = 140.
Darth Vader (RotJ) = 115.
Starkiller (TFU II) = 110.
Yoda (RotS) = 190.
Obi-Wan Kenobi (RoTS) = 110 if EoMF, 90 if IH.
Exar Kun = 80.
Darth Bane = 70.
Darth Maul (SoD) = 75.
Darth Malgus = 70-105, depending on version.
Satele Shan = 65 if pre-KOTFE, 105 if KOTFE.
The Hero of Tython (outlander) = If prime (Onslaught), 175.
Kit Fisto = 75.
Ven Zallow = 70.
Valkorion = 220.
Arcann = 120.
Vaylin(unchained) = 170.
Darth Malak (SF) = No clue.
Kyle Katarn = Again, no clue. Probably 50 - 55.
Corran Horn = No clue.
Darish Vol = Nada.
Lord Nyax = Nope.
Jaina Solo = 50.


Will probably change quite a few of these once I refresh my knowledge on Caedus, but the only ones who should be capable of dominating him are the top tier 8s (Vader, Dooku, Wyyrlok, SK, etc) and the tiers 9s (e.g. prime Mace, Yoda, Sheev, Valk, Outlander, Vaylin, etc.).
IG
IG
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If Darth Caedus is a 100... Empty Re: If Darth Caedus is a 100...

on November 12th 2019, 8:05 pm
Grandmaster Luke - 400
Sheev Palpatine (Dark Empire) - 250
Darth Vader (Knightfall) - 200
Revan (SoR) - 200
Darth Krayt (reborn) - 150
Mace Windu - 95
Darth Wyyrlok - 80
Darth Tyrannus - 96
Darth Vader (RotJ) - 75
Starkiller (TFU II) - 90
Yoda (RotS) - 190
Obi-Wan Kenobi (RoTS) - 80
Exar Kun - 80
Darth Bane - 30
Darth Maul (SoD) - 80
Darth Malgus - 80
Satele Shan - 85
The Hero of Tython (outlander) - 150
Kit Fisto - 50
Ven Zallow  - 40
Valkorion - 230
Arcann - 100
Vaylin(unchained) - 140
Darth Malak (SF) - 90
Kyle Katarn - 75
Corran Horn - 70
Darish Vol - 150
Lord Nyax - 200
Jaina Solo - 60


Note that each of these are inconsistent with the other numbers I put for people. I don't think that Nyax, KFV, and Revan are equals. They're just at that spot for difficulty. Likewise with Palpatine and Valk being around 240-250. With a full power Luke not holding back, they'd provide probably a bit of challenge, but not that much. But like, I don't hold Kun that close to Kenobi. 
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 8:17 pm
IF caedus= vader then...

luke= 10,000 , maybe.
sheev= 5000
KF vader (i believe he grew stronger as suited vader, personally, before anybody shits their pants)= 75-90
revan= at least 70 (idk much about revan tbh)
krayt (if this is his prime)= 9000 or something, idk, possibly even 10,000
windu at his best ever= 80-90+; ROTS base self= around 70, but less than revan, in pure power imo
wyyrlok= around 70 imo, his showings against krayt arent great, but are good, if u consider that to be krayt's prime
dooku= below 70
ROTJ vader= 100
starkiller= above 70, around prime revan, imo
yoda= 100ish, prime would surely be higher, so would dark side yoda.
kenobi= pre amp is around or below 45ish; post amp should be around 70s
exar kun= as a jedi he is below 40, below kenobi; using the dark side could be stronger than base ROTS kenobi, maybe 50s; as a sith lord pre timeskip, weaker than dooku, stronger than kenobi, high 50s; post timeskip is high 60s; sith spirit, if u think, like me, that him getting weaker by a shitton is bs, he should be at 100s at his best imo; without the nexus, and what not, dooku lvl ish, idk if he is stronger than before
bane= POD at his best should be around kun and kenobi; ROT is more or less 50s; DOE, if he got stronger, could be 60s, below kun
maul= normally high 50s; enraged could be 70s
malgus= prime is 60s, i think
satele= 60s at prime, as well
outlander= idk lol
fisto= 45ish, below kenobi
zallow= 45ish, below kenobi
valk= 90s 
arcann= 70s
vaylin= at least 70
malak= at least 60
katarn= idk
horn= idk
vol= says he has a fraction of luke's power, so ill go with 1/10, 1000
nyax= i think he around luke lvl, so 10,000
jaina= below ceadus, for sure, imo, but idk where exactly
Praxis
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on November 12th 2019, 8:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:IF caedus= vader then...

luke= 10,000 , maybe.
sheev= 5000
KF vader (i believe he grew stronger as suited vader, personally, before anybody shits their pants)= 75-90
revan= at least 70 (idk much about revan tbh)
krayt (if this is his prime)= 9000 or something, idk, possibly even 10,000
windu at his best ever= 80-90+; ROTS base self= around 70, but less than revan, in pure power imo
wyyrlok= around 70 imo, his showings against krayt arent great, but are good, if u consider that to be krayt's prime
dooku= below 70
ROTJ vader= 100
starkiller= above 70, around prime revan, imo
yoda= 100ish, prime would surely be higher, so would dark side yoda.
kenobi= pre amp is around or below 45ish; post amp should be around 70s
exar kun= as a jedi he is below 40, below kenobi; using the dark side could be stronger than base ROTS kenobi, maybe 50s; as a sith lord pre timeskip, weaker than dooku, stronger than kenobi, high 50s; post timeskip is high 60s; sith spirit, if u think, like me, that him getting weaker by a shitton is bs, he should be at 100s at his best imo; without the nexus, and what not, dooku lvl ish, idk if he is stronger than before
bane= POD at his best should be around kun and kenobi; ROT is more or less 50s; DOE, if he got stronger, could be 60s, below kun
maul= normally high 50s; enraged could be 70s
malgus= prime is 60s, i think
satele= 60s at prime, as well
outlander= idk lol
fisto= 45ish, below kenobi
zallow= 45ish, below kenobi
valk= 90s 
arcann= 70s
vaylin= at least 70
malak= at least 60
katarn= idk
horn= idk
vol= says he has a fraction of luke's power, so ill go with 1/10, 1000
nyax= i think he around luke lvl, so 10,000
jaina= below ceadus, for sure, imo, but idk where exactly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death
Dolph
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on November 12th 2019, 8:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:valk= 90s 
So you hold Caedus and Darth Vader above Valkorion?
IG
IG
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on November 12th 2019, 8:41 pm
EC, I’ve learned that Lorenzo is equitable with terrible opinions. Read the Wikipedia article Praxis linked for better understanding.
BreakofDawn
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on November 12th 2019, 8:56 pm
Lorenzo, no offence but that list hurt my eyes. There is absolutely no chance Vader would pose a greater difficulty to Caedus than prime Mace (who'd honestly slap Caedus around), and lol at Vaylin being inferior to Jacen and around the same level as Arcann.


@IdrisianGraecus Is your list purely referring to how much difficulty Caedus would have facing them or is it based on their power/skill placings? 
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 9:31 pm
@emperorcaedus yeah, but other people clearly have disagree, but thats no news lol

whatever ur name is, it seems that that is pretty mutual huh lol

circles, thats ridiculous in my eyes as well, so there u have it.
BreakofDawn
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on November 12th 2019, 9:51 pm
circles, thats ridiculous in my eyes as well, so there u have it.
Depends which part you're talking about. Mace is a confirmed tier 9 in his prime as opposed to Vader the tier 8, and Vaylin (per cut dialogue) was pulling every Alliance ship from orbit and ripping the Alliance base apart with a focused Force wave. 
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 9:58 pm
that reffers to the movies, and how well they duel. and if u want confirmed statements, vader is a confirmed 80% of sheev for example, which is ridiculous as
BreakofDawn
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on November 12th 2019, 10:00 pm
that reffers to the movies,
...The highest form of canon.



and how well they duel.
It also refers to their power levels, hence why Anakin's jump from 8 to 9 is described as him "taking Force LSD".



and if u want confirmed statements, vader is a confirmed 80% of sheev for example, which is ridiculous as

Mace has the feats to back up his standing, though. If Darth Caedus is a 100... 1220391476 Plus, "80%" is unquantifiable. All that suggests is that Vader is relatively close to ROTS Sidious but there's a large enough gap that Sidious is his clear superior.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 10:04 pm
vader being capable of stomping kar vastor, vader being capable of one shotting sedriss per being stronger than ood, vader being above spirit kun in nexus with amps, and vader being above gethzerion all laugh at that.
BreakofDawn
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on November 12th 2019, 10:11 pm
vader being capable of stomping kar vastor,
Based on the claims of one nascent Force sensitive regarding a character below an exhausted, injured Shatterpoint Mace (who's <<< ROTS Mace) and who has zero feats off Haruun Kal, where all of his feats are performed on a potent nexus. 



vader being capable of one shotting sedriss per being stronger than ood
A-B-C logic, and not remotely comparable to matching ROTS Sidious. 



, vader being above spirit kun in nexus with amps,

Source?


and vader being above gethzerion all laugh at that.

And prime Mace is solidly above Dooku, who'd murk Gethzerion and probably beat Vader. Not sure what this is meant to prove.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 10:16 pm
when u said that dooku would murk gethzerion, i quit lol
KingofBlades
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on November 12th 2019, 10:26 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd  I don't know if you're aware of this but your opinions on Vader(among other things) are in the extreme minority, so I don't think you're in any sort of position to just blow off @WalkinginCircles statements. If you want your opinions to make any sort of headway among the community, I'd recommend taking your opponent's statements seriously and doing your best to counter them logically. 

Now I have some questions in regards to your ranking? What exactly puts Vader above even Revan, let alone Valkorion?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 10:35 pm
i think, IF the 'above anakin' statements are legit, that would make prime vader pretty much ROTS sheev lvl. i try not to use that, since, like u said, im the minority, so i use actual stuff that he has done, or can do, which is simply better, since it almost counts as feats, and people like feats more than anything else lol. im talking about power only. valk is much more skilled, knowledgeable, very likely more experience, knows shit vader never heard, more hax, etc. i dount doubt that he could/would beat vader, but as far as pure AP goes, i think vader might outrank him, is all.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 10:41 pm
imma go take a shower, so sorry if i take a bit longer to answer back lol
KingofBlades
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on November 12th 2019, 10:45 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd It seems you're working under the assumption that the only Lucas quotes that have Vader below Anakin are the ones referring to the dueling in the movies, However this isn't the case.

George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary wrote:
Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor."


Now here's my two cents on the quote:
We can see that Lucas is clearly differentiating between applicable power and potential power. When he says "lost a lot of the power of the force" this is referring to applicable power. We know he is referring to applicable power because later he brings up the fact that Anakin also lost "a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the emperor" which is referring to potential power. So Lucas is saying that Anakin lost a lot of applicable power and potential power. This would mean that suited Vader is a great deal weaker than Anakin was.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 12th 2019, 11:30 pm
im really not, since i specifically said gillard scale. whether lucas uses it as well doesnt matter to me, since it would mean that palpatine, a lvl 9, wouldve been leagues above mace windu, a lower lvl 9, which is very obviously not the case. i try really, really hard not to use author statements outside of the novels, personally.

it says power of the force, and not just power though. i dont doubt for a single moment that anakin's potential is infinite times greater than vader's, but power in the force has been consistently portrayed as potential as well. otherwise, kar vastor would be as powerful as both AOTC anakin AND and yoda, which is ridiculous and impossible, so it speaks about potential (even though anakin's potential>>>>> yoda's anyhow). and if we were to use lucas' statements as canon for legends (which i do not, in the first place, as they hold almost no validity at this point, imo), vader would still have to be considered as 80% of ROTJ palpatine, who is a good deal stronger than ROTS palpatine. i already said this, but vader's other statements, and 'feats' are good enough to me anyhow.

another thing to clear up here- i do not, for a single second, think that newly suited vader= prime anakin. he is much weaker, and thats a fact to me. BUT, i dont doubt that vader, after 20 years of nothing but growth to spare, couldve gained his old power. he clearly did not have that power before ANH, but i dont think its impossible at all to think he may have become what he used to be after 2 decades.
Dolph
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on November 13th 2019, 12:08 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:IF caedus= vader then...
 
Why and how is Caedus = Vader?
KingofBlades
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on November 13th 2019, 12:15 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd You think that the quote I provided only refers to potential power despite me explicitly explaining why the quote also refers to applicable power. Unless you can prove my analysis wrong, you are faced with irrefutable proof that suit Vader is weaker than Anakin. Also note that this quote is referring to OT Vader, not newly suited Vader. So your argument that OT Vader could've regained the parity he had with Yoda as Anakin after 20 years of growth is defunct

George Lucas, whether you like it or not, has G canon authority under legends policy. So his opinion most certainly does matter. In fact, his opinions on this matter are infinitely more authoritative than any C canon sources you may try to use to refute me. While you are correct that we shouldn't t generally take a SW author's opinion as word of law, GL is exempt from this because he is the creator of the mythos. His word is law, and that is that.

The 80% quote doesn't prove what you're claiming it does. Since there aren't any other reference points in the quote, we cannot use it to prove Vader is above anybody. RotS Yoda could be 90% of Sheev for all we know. So no this quote doesn't prove Vader is on par or above the ROTS titans.

So now that I have dealt with the notion that Vader is on par or above the likes of Yoda; do tell me, what feats does Vader possess that puts him above Revan or Valk?
IG
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on November 13th 2019, 6:43 am
@WalkinginCircles: A bit of both. It’s mostly on fighting difficulty though.
Dolph
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on November 13th 2019, 9:45 am
EmperorCaedus wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:IF caedus= vader then...
 
Why and how is Caedus = Vader?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 13th 2019, 9:50 am
when u get confirmation that what u said is a fact, and not what u inferred from someone's words, that are vague at the least, then ill consider that. irrefutable proof lol about all of lucas' quotes have been changed, become moot, or been contradicted by other sources, often times by lucas himself.

if the author's word is law, then i dont see what the problem with author's intent is. if the author wants to make vader strong, they will, and we have seen this before, contrary to what lucas obviously wanted. we have also seen author's make vader weak, too. we have authors even make new possibilities as to why vader lost so much power, going against lucas' direct words lol 

but now, because lucas' words are law++, any and all sources that go against his words are completely unreliable, effective immediately, such as valkorion being stronger than ROTS sheev, which yall seem to be believe for no apparent reason, since he DOES have quotes that say he was the strongest dark side up until that point in time.

him being 20% away from a sheev stronger than ROTS sheev 100% makes him a 'titan', no matter how u look at it, and i dont even agree with that quote in the first place lol. yoda being 90% is completely headcanon, and pure speculation to counter a 'most absolute G canon' quote, which is, like u said, a useless battle. any f the hundreds of statement that say that sheev>>>>>> vader is now useless, because lucas said that vader has 80% of his power lol, which is exactly why i dont use lucas quotes. 

u have to deal with vader being yoda lvl.... ok? lol so now what u disagree with= worst disaster or something?

- above someone (ood bonar, idk if i spelled that right) who can one shot a Dooku lvl+ force user (sedriss)
- stronger than gethzerion (she was a direct threat to sheev, said so by himself, luke and by the narrator in CoPL, i believe)
- consistently called a threat by sheev, and said to have enough power kill to kill him, even though he can never surpass sheev (this is obvious enough, i suppose)
- consistently, albeit not directly/obviously, compared to DE luke (by this point, he was 1 or 2 'power ups' away from DE sheev lvls of power, and could completely overpower sedriss as well)
- capable of stomping kar vastor pre prime (hur dur nick rostu this, nick rostu that- yeah no, the guy has been a force user for years, and repeated his statements years later to luke, saying that vader, even back then, was strong enough to kill mace windu. he could also makes shots that luke needed the force to make (5 BBY luke, i believe, after ROTJ), meaning that a possible basic force augmentation of sorts is at hand)
- second strongest living being in the galaxy next to palpatine (puts him above joruus, jerec, muur, krayt, exar kun, and some others i might be forgetting about)
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