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Zenwolf
Zenwolf

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 4:55 pm
Ok I gotta ask, cause despite not being much for Force Users I've seen this thrown around much.

But what the hell do you guys even mean with.

"Using both sides of The Force."

What are you talking about with this?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:00 pm
Normally a jedi or sith are restricted to using only the light or dark sides of the force respectively. For example after turning to the dark side, Exar Kun found himself unable to call upon the light side of the force. Revan is somewhat unique in the sense that he is capable of drawing on both sides simultaneously.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:07 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Normally a jedi or sith are restricted to using only the light or dark sides of the force respectively. For example after turning to the dark side, Exar Kun found himself unable to call upon the light side of the force. Revan is somewhat unique in the sense that he is capable of drawing on both sides simultaneously.

I obviously get that, but explain.

What abilities are Revan able to use?

Also what does it mean when Kun was unable to call upon the light?

What was he restricted from?

From what I've looked up, a lot of these so called "Light Side" abilities, aren't even restrictive.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:13 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Normally a jedi or sith are restricted to using only the light or dark sides of the force respectively. For example after turning to the dark side, Exar Kun found himself unable to call upon the light side of the force. Revan is somewhat unique in the sense that he is capable of drawing on both sides simultaneously.

I obviously get that, but explain.

What abilities are Revan able to use?

Also what does it mean when Kun was unable to call upon the light?

What was he restricted from?
Revan mostly used it so that he could amplify his attacks by releasing the Force in its purest form (which he described as twin rushing rivers) or to simultaneously counter Sith and Jedi (trapping the Sith in light energy and trapping the Jedi in dark energy). Anakin used it in a similar way to control the daughter and the son.

Basically Sith can only draw from the dark side of the force (even if they were formerly Jedi). But Revan learned to balance between the two.


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 13th 2019, 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:16 pm
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Normally a jedi or sith are restricted to using only the light or dark sides of the force respectively. For example after turning to the dark side, Exar Kun found himself unable to call upon the light side of the force. Revan is somewhat unique in the sense that he is capable of drawing on both sides simultaneously.

I obviously get that, but explain.

What abilities are Revan able to use?

Also what does it mean when Kun was unable to call upon the light?

What was he restricted from?
Revan mostly used it so that he could amplify his attacks by releasing the Force in its purest form (aka neither light or dark) or to simultaneously counter Sith and Jedi (trapping the Sith in light energy and trapping the Jedi in dark energy). Anakin used it in a similar way to control the daughter and the son.

Basically Sith can only draw from the dark side of the force (even if they were formerly Jedi). But Revan learned to balance between the two.

So Oneness?

Also again, what I'm trying to say here is, what abilities that Revan can use and not others?

If it's just that one specific ability then fine, but you guys make it sound like he can use abilities others can't, when those abilities are actually still possible to be used by others. Apart from that one specific ability, but it's not like having a unique abiity isn't anything new for others too.

Yeah sure perhaps for Revan this is something others can't do, but I'm not speaking about this one specific ability.

I'm not too sure if I've been clear on what I'm trying to get across, if I haven't then I apologize, I'm not too sure how to ask it.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:25 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Normally a jedi or sith are restricted to using only the light or dark sides of the force respectively. For example after turning to the dark side, Exar Kun found himself unable to call upon the light side of the force. Revan is somewhat unique in the sense that he is capable of drawing on both sides simultaneously.

I obviously get that, but explain.

What abilities are Revan able to use?

Also what does it mean when Kun was unable to call upon the light?

What was he restricted from?
Revan mostly used it so that he could amplify his attacks by releasing the Force in its purest form (aka neither light or dark) or to simultaneously counter Sith and Jedi (trapping the Sith in light energy and trapping the Jedi in dark energy). Anakin used it in a similar way to control the daughter and the son.

Basically Sith can only draw from the dark side of the force (even if they were formerly Jedi). But Revan learned to balance between the two.

So Oneness?

Also again, what I'm trying to say here is, what abilities that Revan can use and not others?

If it's just that one specific ability then fine, but you guys make it sound like he can use abilities others can't, when those abilities are actually still possible to be used by others. Apart from that one specific ability, but it's not like having a unique abiity isn't anything new for others too.

Yeah sure perhaps for Revan this is something others can't do, but I'm not speaking about this one specific ability.

I'm not too sure if I've been clear on what I'm trying to get across, if I haven't then I apologize, I'm not too sure how to ask it.
The difference is that it is stronger than either the light or the dark on it's own. So for example something as basic as a push is suddenly far stronger than you could have done by calling on just one side.

And on top of being stronger, it is also harder to counter for someone only using one side.

Essentially the way it is explained in the Old Republic (not canon mind you) is that it is the natural state of the Force.

And don't worry, it's hard to explain too lol.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:29 pm
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Normally a jedi or sith are restricted to using only the light or dark sides of the force respectively. For example after turning to the dark side, Exar Kun found himself unable to call upon the light side of the force. Revan is somewhat unique in the sense that he is capable of drawing on both sides simultaneously.

I obviously get that, but explain.

What abilities are Revan able to use?

Also what does it mean when Kun was unable to call upon the light?

What was he restricted from?
Revan mostly used it so that he could amplify his attacks by releasing the Force in its purest form (aka neither light or dark) or to simultaneously counter Sith and Jedi (trapping the Sith in light energy and trapping the Jedi in dark energy). Anakin used it in a similar way to control the daughter and the son.

Basically Sith can only draw from the dark side of the force (even if they were formerly Jedi). But Revan learned to balance between the two.

So Oneness?

Also again, what I'm trying to say here is, what abilities that Revan can use and not others?

If it's just that one specific ability then fine, but you guys make it sound like he can use abilities others can't, when those abilities are actually still possible to be used by others. Apart from that one specific ability, but it's not like having a unique abiity isn't anything new for others too.

Yeah sure perhaps for Revan this is something others can't do, but I'm not speaking about this one specific ability.

I'm not too sure if I've been clear on what I'm trying to get across, if I haven't then I apologize, I'm not too sure how to ask it.
The difference is that it is stronger than either the light or the dark on it's own. So for example something as basic as a push is suddenly far stronger than you could have done by calling on just one side.

And on top of being stronger, it is also harder to counter for someone only using one side.

Essentially the way it is explained in the Old Republic (not canon mind you) is that it is the natural state of the Force.

And don't worry, it's hard to explain too lol.

So then it's not using both sides, it's just using an ability that both sides can used...just more powerful.

....Ok so then where is it said, that abilities are stronger with using both? Cause that's frankly the first time I'm ever hearing of that.

I get Oneness is like that....is that what you guys have been essentially meaning this whole damn time with Revan being able to use both sides?....

Cause you make it sound like it's something completely different. But all it really is, from what you told me, is that Revan's basic abilities...that all Force Users can do, are just more powerful because.....what's the explanation here?

Just saying "it's both"....what does that mean?

How are you even quantifying that?
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:32 pm
I'd recommend reading the Dawn of the Jedi series if you want to know more about the EU idea of using both sides, and how the Sith and the Jedi began to split, each believing their side was better.

It's also basically unheard of in the modern (4000BBY onward) era, only being able to be learned instinctually.

In fact Darth Gravid, a Banite with about halfway through the line, tried to adhere to both sides and went insane trying.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:35 pm
@caffeineandshiny wrote:I'd recommend reading the Dawn of the Jedi series if you want to know more about the EU idea of using both sides, and how the Sith and the Jedi began to split, each believing their side was better.

It's also basically unheard of in the modern (4000BBY onward) era, only being able to be learned instinctually.

In fact Darth Gravid, a Banite with about halfway through the line, tried to adhere to both sides and went insane trying.

I get that the ancestors of the Jedi nearly went crazy trying to balance both on Tython, which caused a Civil War among them.

I get that Revan went coocoo and going insane.

I get that Luke at one point, saying that balance was impossible I believe in one of the NJO books?

Also Gravid yes.

But if that one specific ability you mean for Revan, is what you mean when he can use both as some kinda weird energy.

Ok that's fine.

However I was under the impression it was something different, you folks were meaning about that.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:47 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:I'd recommend reading the Dawn of the Jedi series if you want to know more about the EU idea of using both sides, and how the Sith and the Jedi began to split, each believing their side was better.

It's also basically unheard of in the modern (4000BBY onward) era, only being able to be learned instinctually.

In fact Darth Gravid, a Banite with about halfway through the line, tried to adhere to both sides and went insane trying.

I get that the ancestors of the Jedi nearly went crazy trying to balance both on Tython, which caused a Civil War among them.

I get that Revan went coocoo and going insane.

I get that Luke at one point, saying that balance was impossible I believe in one of the NJO books?

Also Gravid yes.

But if that one specific ability you mean for Revan, is what you mean when he can use both as some kinda weird energy.

Ok that's fine.

However I was under the impression it was something different, you folks were meaning about that.
Revan didn't go insane from using the Force this way though. He went insane because Vitiate spent 300 years trying to split his mind in half between "passion" and "wisdom".

And yeah, basically it's just an amplification. But there are also abilities that one side can use and not the other.

And yeah there are discrepancies between the NJO and the Old Republic. Largely because the NJO was written based off the Originak Trilogy, where the darkside is corruption, whereas the Old Republic is in the time when people (EU writers) started thinking about both sides being two halves of a whole.

Lucas seems to have started going in that direction by having the Son not be evil until he fully committed to the dark.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 5:54 pm
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:I'd recommend reading the Dawn of the Jedi series if you want to know more about the EU idea of using both sides, and how the Sith and the Jedi began to split, each believing their side was better.

It's also basically unheard of in the modern (4000BBY onward) era, only being able to be learned instinctually.

In fact Darth Gravid, a Banite with about halfway through the line, tried to adhere to both sides and went insane trying.

I get that the ancestors of the Jedi nearly went crazy trying to balance both on Tython, which caused a Civil War among them.

I get that Revan went coocoo and going insane.

I get that Luke at one point, saying that balance was impossible I believe in one of the NJO books?

Also Gravid yes.

But if that one specific ability you mean for Revan, is what you mean when he can use both as some kinda weird energy.

Ok that's fine.

However I was under the impression it was something different, you folks were meaning about that.
Revan didn't go insane from using the Force this way though. He went insane because Vitiate spent 300 years trying to split his mind in half between "passion" and "wisdom".

And yeah, basically it's just an amplification. But there are also abilities that one side can use and not the other.

And yeah there are discrepancies between the NJO and the Old Republic. Largely because the NJO was written based off the Originak Trilogy, where the darkside is corruption, whereas the Old Republic is in the time when people (EU writers) started thinking about both sides being two halves of a whole.

Lucas seems to have started going in that direction by having the Son not be evil until he fully committed to the dark.

Yet he still used both according to everyone, so it contributed.

But ok then, also yes there are. But I was meaning more along the lines of not the very specific abilities, but moreso the broad ones.

Example like Stun, that isn't a light side only ability, seeing as plenty of Dark Force Users have also shown the ability to that.

Or Battlemind.

Like many of these abilities are so called "Light side" abilities.

Yet evidence shows otherwise.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 6:32 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:I'd recommend reading the Dawn of the Jedi series if you want to know more about the EU idea of using both sides, and how the Sith and the Jedi began to split, each believing their side was better.

It's also basically unheard of in the modern (4000BBY onward) era, only being able to be learned instinctually.

In fact Darth Gravid, a Banite with about halfway through the line, tried to adhere to both sides and went insane trying.

I get that the ancestors of the Jedi nearly went crazy trying to balance both on Tython, which caused a Civil War among them.

I get that Revan went coocoo and going insane.

I get that Luke at one point, saying that balance was impossible I believe in one of the NJO books?

Also Gravid yes.

But if that one specific ability you mean for Revan, is what you mean when he can use both as some kinda weird energy.

Ok that's fine.

However I was under the impression it was something different, you folks were meaning about that.
Revan didn't go insane from using the Force this way though. He went insane because Vitiate spent 300 years trying to split his mind in half between "passion" and "wisdom".

And yeah, basically it's just an amplification. But there are also abilities that one side can use and not the other.

And yeah there are discrepancies between the NJO and the Old Republic. Largely because the NJO was written based off the Originak Trilogy, where the darkside is corruption, whereas the Old Republic is in the time when people (EU writers) started thinking about both sides being two halves of a whole.

Lucas seems to have started going in that direction by having the Son not be evil until he fully committed to the dark.

Yet he still used both according to everyone, so it contributed.

But ok then, also yes there are. But I was meaning more along the lines of not the very specific abilities, but moreso the broad ones.

Example like Stun, that isn't a light side only ability, seeing as plenty of Dark Force Users have also shown the ability to that.

Or Battlemind.

Like many of these abilities are so called "Light side" abilities.

Yet evidence shows otherwise.
We aren't really given any reason to think that his use of both sides would have naturally caused insanity. The fact it took Vitiate 300 years to do it while actively trying to get him to split means he probably wouldn't have had any problems over a normal life span.

We are very specifically told that Revan learned to "walk the knife's edge" between light and dark, just like the Jedaii did for thousands of years before a few of them started to go wonky. Vs with Gravid we are told that he tried and failed, and his failure is what caused his insanity.

Does that make sense? (I'm horrible at trying to explain)

Most abilities like Stun etc are listed a neutral abilities. You still call on one side of the force or the other to power them but they don't originate from that side.

Vs sith lightning, where a major component is wanting to do harm. Its affiliated with the Sith because a Jedi would tread close to the dark if they wanted to meet the conditions necessary to create it.

An example of a light side ability is force healing. While some Sith have shown that they can use the dark side to keep themselves alive, it is in the same way the Sion does. It is using pure willpower and hate to stay alive and overcome, not actually heal the damage, and so they remain injured (like Vader trying but failing to heal his lungs).

Another example is Severe Force, which Grand Master Nomi Sunrider used. Although this one has also been used by Sith such as Caedus (who does have the oneness going on).

Then there is tutaminis which is far easier for someone to use if they are aligned with the light. Revan has one of the greatest showings when it comes to this ability.

Force bonds are also created between light side users, and are basically alien to dark side users (they rely on themselves, forming any sort of bond to them is a weakness). Revan was able to use his unique connection to the light and understanding of them to manipulate them with the dark and use them against the bonded people.

Usually when someone uses something defensively or to help it is more light side oriented while offensive uses are more dark side. It is easier for Jedi to defend and Sith to attack. Someone in the middle doesn't struggle with either.

The Old Republic and new canon go even further than that and have both have distinct energies that make up each. Which goes back to that "wacky energy" you used to describe both lol.


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 13th 2019, 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 6:33 pm
first things first, thanks for the shortened version lol appreciate it. second things second- i already conceded that revan, even around his post novel self> dooku (in some ways more than others, of course), and that prime revan, which is reborn, i suppose, would be quite to yoda, who is about twice or three times stronger than dooku in power.

oh my bad, i shouldve checked the link first lol sorry.

i know that it was confirmed, just like valk was said to be above sheev, which is somewhat unreliable, and also contradicts lucas' obvious own intent for him to be the strongest dark sider at that time, hence why i go against that in the first place. i place author's intent in very high authority, higher than statements (author intent, unlike random statements, have thoughts and discussions put into them, and arent some 'on a whim' type answers, which i believe u seem to somewhat agree with; i even disagree with lucas often because of this- his intent for a lot of things in legends is very often completely ignored, and ignored way too much at times, that his words lost their meaning. case in point, him thinking that vader was close in power to sheev, but EVERY SINGLE OTHER PIECE OF, WELL, ANYTHING says that sheev would stomp him with a pinky raise). i dont doubt the ancient sith's skills, but being children to them? that seems like, yet again, flowery lingo to me. idk if u agree with that or not, but i cannot see revan for example, getting stomped by naga sadow in pure skill. can u?

i didnt know that it was alchemy? i looked it up, and it looks normal stun, just more specific to the heart, and even then, dooku still has the best showing for it (alchemy is not easy at all to use, bane head huge trouble in using it even at his prime, while dooku could even use it in another innovated method, very casually)

i didnt say that it brought people back to life after it killed them, i said that he saved GG's life by using it, which was something he found impressive that he could do. revan brought himself back to life, but power has nothing to do with that, since sion could so, much more easily, and much more often. in this case, its allllll about power of will. hell, vader did it once too. and sheev possessed one of his cloned bodies, so its not even resurrection, i think.

revan is in my eyes, about as wanky as can get tbh lol i like him, but his feats can be too crazy sometimes. other characters who are supposed to be monsters havent done shit like that, not even once. vitiate suffers from the same thing, unfortunetly. they seem always so over the top. kinda ruins them. like, bane, plagueis, sheev, anakin, vader, even luke have yet to actually accomplish what these two did. i mean, that goes and back forth a lot, since bane has done things prime luke struggled to do, i think, lol

what feat? i didnt know dooku had a telepathy feat on a nexus? lol now, i will say, those jedi's were his lakies almost. if he were to have completely dominated an enemy army of jedis that wouldve been dope, but he kinda convinced them of turning to the dark side, almost. 

leaving a print of power is really not all that in my eyes, since TPM maul did that too, but its impressive anyhow. dooku actually did that too, i think, in jedi quest, but this was obviously in a lower quality than what revan did.

yet again, there is no proof that it took dooku 10 years to learn all that stuff, nor is there proof that he didnt learn them either. i also already said that he mastered the dark side in only less than 5 years lol, not 10. plus, what bane considered unimpressive by the time he saw that holocron, was already 13 years after the first book, in case u didnt know. and dooku considering it impressive means nothing? yoda was also impressed by dooku's power lol, which means nothing yet again.

u are also ignoring the fact that revan rushed his training much more than either of them did, while both of them had masters restricting them, something revan did not have. he did what he wanted, when he wanted to do it. bane as a trainee could only learn what they let him learn, and even after that, he had to go out and keep looking for info all over the place, unlike revan who had dozens of different masters, for like, 2 to 3 decades, who could use the jedi library, which had more and just as good jedi and sith info when compared to the stuff bane came across, while bane had 23 years from of training, and who started when he was already 20something, instead of revan, who had been in the order for years before he even started his real training.

i agree, what prime revan had= what dooku had

idk what u mean by this here. dooku clearly thought very lowly of pretty high end sith powers lol. im not gonna say the guy was cocky, but he was best student of the force, considered as such by other jedi, and not by himself, for a reason. idk if dooku had the power or connection needed to learn all of the powers available to him, but he 100% had the skill for it.

i agree, but then again, meetra's progress was pretty luke skywalker ish lol

thanks for avoiding them, i try to do the same hahaha

eh, idk man. all the users for it just kinda used it, and boom, they had it. i think only jacen was taught it. and if was at easy to learn like that, waaaayyyy too much would have it.

i mean, dark jedi have used pretty casually, so its not hard at all to use after some time in using the dark side. idk if u mean amped traya or not, and even then, dooku has resistance to a much stronger drain thingy (the drain machine from the game). would honestly clap traya if she wasnt so hax and skilled in the force lol.

and i dont dismiss him, i know he and dooku are quite close in more than one aspects, but dooku's power showings are just better, and his skill and statements are also better than any feats maul has. fighting sheev is incredibly good, and i consider that a legit feat tbh, but even then, other people as good or better than sheev have said that dooku to be a danger, in either the force, or with a lightsaber lol. i have read that before yeah, and i disagree with it, since like i said, obi wan, many narrator statements, and yoda all say that he is either better than maul, without match aside from yoda himself, or that he is only equaled by mace windu, and only by ROTS too.

he actually didnt destroy majority, but he did destroy a good fraction of it for sure. i wanna say 1/3 or more is about right. other wise, plagueis and co would left with nothing to work with hahaha

better feats can be countered by scaling man, we went over this lol, bane himself moved a moon i believe. i think this may have been in a nexus, but i dont remember it being anything too big either. i could wrong of course tho, so dont take my exact words for it.

i dont think i need to mention dooku often blasting off enraged TCW anakin, do i? and usually, he does so in very bad positions too. TCW anakin is, what, not even a year away from ROTS? in which he was often said to have been the strongest jedi aside from yoda, without using the dark side whatsoever. not to mention him matching anakin in the invisible hand too. he was losing, but that doesnt take away the impressiveness away. if anything, its another feat of him fighting 'the strongest jedi' around. im not saying base anakin= yoda, but the difference in power isnt that big either way.

meetra also overcame that, i think.

i think this is obvious, but what chance would dooku stand even if he switched forms? if he did so, he would be using something he was worst at, while having almost nothing more of an advantage. and even then, he lasted a good while against a sheev+ lvl duelist (please dont bring up the gillard lol). i do agree tho, dooku had this dumb idea in his head that he was too good to change forms, even though he could easily do so lol fucking cocky as hell.

IF we were to consider the quote to be like that, then that would make valk also stornger than the son and abeloth, which is also not the case. im not gonna say sheev> valk for sure, valk isnt stronger than him either.

malgus using maelstrom doenst make him plagueis tier at all, and it never will. and thats a horrible argument. if we were to say "why didnt he use it in the this instance then??", we would get nowhere, since sheev didnt use anything aside from lightning against yoda, luke, and vader, and as u know, 2 of them killed him, and the other one was almost there too lol


like i said, dooku isnt a protag. for one, his lack of showings is at least helped by his statements. neither vader nor revan have statements that they were one of the strongest force users ever born, or almost unparalleled in the force. neither had statements that said the only person that could outduel them was the best duelist ever, up to that time (yoda) aside from luke skywalker and mace windu. he is said to be as skilled as yoda with the force, while being the order's most learned jedi, putting him in yoda tiers again. him feeling the universe around him, and forcing the force to work for him, while sensing palpatine's real power, through palpatine's defenses nonetheless, which were made stronger by alchemy, is more or less mega impressive. this is likely dooku's best feat, imo.

im not saying that savage can be one shotted by dooku. dooku isnt strong enough for that. hell, idk if fucking sidious can just shoot some 5 second lightning into him, and he will just die. im just saying that dooku didnt need her help to down him, since he could, and had done it by himself many times already.

didnt yoda also consider him a threat? and didnt sheev also consider ventress a threat? i could go on about stuff like this. savage had some obvious potential to him. higher than ventress for sure. thats what that meant. he could become extremely dangerous. 

i dont think i need to point out the ignorance of that fight, correct? not using patterns is what all duelists should strive for. thats like saying that up until that point, vos didnt use anything but predictable moves, and then he thought "imagine if i didnt do that? what a great idea!". u feel me?

i agree, mine is also a mess hahaha

my conclusions: dooku is weaker than prime revan for sure in power, but i still consider him powerful enough to fight and beat and novel revan, even if only once out of 100 battles. i will say that u have changed my mind about revan. his amount of knowledge was pretty damn huge, specially after he took info from vititates's mind. he should around vitiate's/plagueis' amount of info for sure. idk about dooku- he has clearly, to me at least, shown great knowledge of the force, on both the dark and the light side. his lack of showings do kill him almost, but i dont wanna take showings only as my final answer, so i stand by what i said, and that is that they should be somewhat comparable, since i do place his light sider ability quantity to be above revans, as he said to be equal to yoda more than once. idk about dark side powers. he really obviously lacks showings in that, but i wont write him off just cuz of that. what else.. dooku has a yoda lvl stated potential, regardless of opinions, but i will say that i now think that revan's potential is greater than dooku's, albeit, i do still think that dooku could have reached revan's power lvl, give enough time.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 14th 2019, 3:05 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:first things first, thanks for the shortened version lol appreciate it.
Np lol I try not to get too long winded (so sorry about this coming response lol). Prime Revan would TECHNICALLY be SoR Revan, but as I said before its such a murky subject. Basically, Revan Reborn is the end of the book Revan when he combines his memories of being Darth Revan (and before that Jedi Revan) with KOTOR Revan. But he is weakened from 3 years of not being able to move, being on a darkside nexus (which weakens light abilities, and combined abilities, at least) and only getting his memories hours prior to the fight with Vitiate.

Book Revan is basically just KOTOR Revan (I'm haven't really talked about him but he's got some real good showings too).

Foundry Revan knows more than Revan Reborn, after stealing bits from Vitiate, (which is saying something considering how much Revan Reborn already knew) but is weaker because he's been being force drained and held in stasis, not to mention almost fully split mentally (and going insane).

SoR Revan is the only Revan who actually had time to rest before his showings, but he wasn't as strong as he could have been if he had been whole. "That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together. / Each part of you was needed as much as the other. The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together."

So murky subject lol.

case in point, him thinking that vader was close in power to sheev, but EVERY SINGLE OTHER PIECE OF, WELL, ANYTHING says that sheev would stomp him with a pinky raise). i dont doubt the ancient sith's skills, but being children to them? that seems like, yet again, flowery lingo to me. idk if u agree with that or not, but i cannot see revan for example, getting stomped by naga sadow in pure skill. can u?
I don't mind authorial intent, but at the same time I feel like what Lucas said regarding the EU is a good way to look at it: that they are "parallel universes", not intended to be the same. Basically, canon events happen in the EU too, but how they happen can be changed and added to because the EU isn't Lucas' world. And if there isn't an EU version of a canon event, then we look to the canon (which is how the Clone Wars TV series kinda got blended into the mix of the original series and the other versions of the Clone Wars). That's just how I look at it.

Honestly I always felt it was Lucas who was the one putting the limits on Vader by saying things like that he was 80% of Palpatine and that he couldn't have summoned the energy he did to endure Palpatine's lightning if it hadn't been for "super energy" that he got in order to protect Luke. And that Vader was a 4, Luke was a 2, and Obi Wan was a 6. Plus we have Lucas saying things like that when Vader became a cyborg he became just "another Maul or Dooku". I don't mind this version of Vader, because it kind of heightens his tragedy: he went from potentially the most powerful Force user to being little more than a shell.

But that is just how I look at him when watching the Original Trilogy as a stand alone. In the context of the EU, and even the Clone Wars and the prequels, I much prefer the overpowered version of Vader.

The thing about Revan is that, again, its not just about skill. Its about the power behind the skill. So no, I can't see him getting overwhelmed but that doesn't mean that Revan learning from those Ancient Sith skills wouldn't give his power even more of an edge (as it did).

bane head huge trouble in using it even at his prime
Bane had trouble using the big alchemy things, like Zannah's tendrils. Dooku using heart stun doesn't really compare to that level of alchemy. Although Revan was able to use dark side aberrations during SoR (don't really have a point with that, just musing to myself that it might have been alchemy. It was quasi living dark side energy).

revan brought himself back to life, but power has nothing to do with that, since sion could so, much more easily, and much more often. in this case, its allllll about power of will. hell, vader did it once too. and sheev possessed one of his cloned bodies, so its not even resurrection, i think.
It has to do with will power. Sion was able to bring himself back because of hatred, and keep himself there with that hate combined with the pain of being in a decaying body. Palpatine and Vitiate did it through raw strength, possessing living bodies. Revan falls in between. He didn't bring himself back to a new body, but the body he brought himself back to wasn't decaying like Sion's (which could be explained as Revan was the only one of the four to have access to the light side, because even though Shadow Revan was Revan's "passion" he was still able to use light side abilities. So its possible that he was able to bring a sort of quasi "life" back to his body rather than just dragging around a corpse like Sion, hence why his body didn't rot).

But that wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to Spirit Revan's (light side Revan) ability to resurrect dead heroes during SoR.
"Boon of the Spirit. Target has been recently resurrected by an outside force."

like, bane, plagueis, sheev, anakin, vader, even luke have yet to actually accomplish what these two did. i mean, that goes and back forth a lot, since bane has done things prime luke struggled to do, i think, lol
I mean, Dark Empire gets pretty crazy. Palpatine in particular turned into Vitiate on drugs.

what feat? i didnt know dooku had a telepathy feat on a nexus? lol now, i will say, those jedi's were his lakies almost. if he were to have completely dominated an enemy army of jedis that wouldve been dope, but he kinda convinced them of turning to the dark side, almost. 
That isn't a Dooku feat, its a Revan one. A Jedi Revan (bordering on Darth) one at that. And he completely dominated them and turned them into the beginnings of his army that he used to start his war with the Republic. Dooku doesn't have any mental feats on that level. I mean, Dooku tamed a Krayt dragon which is nothing to sneeze at.

My point was that it was an incredibly impressive feat.

yet again, there is no proof that it took dooku 10 years to learn all that stuff, nor is there proof that he didnt learn them either. i also already said that he mastered the dark side in only less than 5 years lol, not 10. 
But he was actively learning the whole time lol, and he still had more to learn.

And my point about the 10 was that after 10 years Dooku hadn't learned (and grew greatly from) what Bane considered the basics. Yes, this was later in Bane's life but that wasn't my point. My point was that Dooku having "so much more to learn than people thousands of years before" is not true.

My point is that Revan is a faster learner. Dooku is faster than 99.99% of people...and Revan is part of the .01% that Dooku isn't.

u are also ignoring the fact that revan rushed his training much more than either of them did, while both of them had masters restricting them, something revan did not have. he did what he wanted, when he wanted to do it. bane as a trainee could only learn what they let him learn, and even after that, he had to go out and keep looking for info all over the place, unlike revan who had dozens of different masters, for like, 2 to 3 decades, who could use the jedi library, which had more and just as good jedi and sith info when compared to the stuff bane came across, while bane had 23 years from of training, and who started when he was already 20something, instead of revan, who had been in the order for years before he even started his real training.
Revan didn't "rush" his training. He wasn't trying to get to the end, he was trying to learn all he could. Just like Dooku. Revan went back for more and more because he was able to. Because Revan learned fast enough that he was ABLE to learn from dozens of masters in that amount of time. Again "he learned faster than he could be taught". 

You are acting like Dooku was just dawdling along when it is quite clear what kind of person he was. And Dooku wasn't being restricted by his masters. If anything he was encouraged, as he was given access to the entire library.

We also have this quote from Kreia:
"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters."

This clearly shows that Revan's potential was deliberately hidden from him by the Jedi. This corresponds with the fact that many of his masters sensed a spark of darkness in him. So the Jedi were deliberately trying to slow him down and hide his potential from him.

And it didn't work lol.

And you do realize that the Brotherhood of Darkness were ex Jedi right? Who had access to the Jedi library prior to leaving, not to mention Korriban (which had been in Sith possession for nearly a thousand years)? Revan surpassed their archives with just the information he took the time to record, from a single year (note that Bane specifically says, or thinks, 'archives'. Which means he was studying everything on Korriban before he discovered Revan's holocron, not just what the masters were teaching him).

eh, idk man. all the users for it just kinda used it, and boom, they had it. i think only jacen was taught it. and if was at easy to learn like that, waaaayyyy too much would have it.
I assume you are talking about teleporting? It ISN'T easy to learn. That's my whole point. But you can learn it. And even if you learn it, you have to have incredible reserves to use it at all much less to the level that Revan did.
dooku has resistance to a much stronger drain thingy (the drain machine from the game)
That was Rakatan technology, just like the Star Forge. And no, I wouldn't say it is definitively stronger than Traya draining 3 masters completely at the same time (it could be, but considering his lack of resistance to Mother Talzin it also could not. Although, Talzin>Kreia). But it really wasn't my point, my point was that they were comparable in their raw force ability.
other people as good or better than sheev have said that dooku to be a danger, in either the force, or with a lightsaber lol
That was during his time prior to Phantom Menace, where Palpatine was weak enough that Plagueis could still keep him in his place. The amount of growth between Palpatine's time before he killed Plagueis and the time to RotS was a huge amount. Not to mention, again, Plagueis was using Dooku to try to threaten Palpatine by saying "I will replace you if you try anything". Because Plagueis didn't live by the rule of two any more, and so he needed to discourage Palpatine from trying anything.

And again, all that is specifically referring to sabers.

he actually didnt destroy majority, but he did destroy a good fraction of it for sure. i wanna say 1/3 or more is about right. other wise, plagueis and co would left with nothing to work with hahaha
Yes he did, it was the majority. It wasn't all. But it was the majority.

[size=32]"(Gravid) was thought to have destroyed more than half the repository of artifacts before Gean, demonstrating consummate will and courage, had managed to penetrate the Force fields"-Plagueis[/size]


[size=32]Plus unless he was an idiot (which is possible, given his insanity) he would have started with the most important things.[/size]

And its not like they couldn't get new artifacts from elsewhere, it just set them way back so it wasn't a full 1000 years of accumulated information.

 im not saying base anakin= yoda, but the difference in power isnt that big either way.
It is still big. Anakin was not close to Yoda or Sidious. Not to mention, if you read the novelization, you see that Anakin was solidly beating Dooku BEFORE he got angry. And there were times in the Clone Wars he beat Dooku too, or at least was beating him till he was forced to leave. Even during the Clone Wars movie.

meetra also overcame that, i think.
She is (was) a Force Wound. She didn't have to do anything basically.

i think this is obvious, but what chance would dooku stand even if he switched forms? if he did so, he would be using something he was worst at, while having almost nothing more of an advantage. and even then, he lasted a good while against a sheev+ lvl duelist
Anakin isn't a Palpatine level duelist, much less Yoda (see Obi Wan fight). Plus, again, Anakin completely overwhelmed Dooku in their last fight above Coruscant. Even during AotC he was holding his own. What did him in was a lack of experience at controlling the energy he had, so he got tired.

"For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying...Anakin held his ground stubbornly, his green blade flashing left, right, and down so forcefully and precisely that none of Dooku's attacks got through...it couldn't hold. Anakin was expending many times the energy of the efficient dooku, and as soon as he tired..."-AotC

I agree it is a moot point cause I don't see Dooku switching forms. But honestly, considering how Revan scales off Kun and Malak I'd probably say that Dooku would lose sabers in a different form. But it wouldn't just be because of the new form. Part of what keeps him competitive in his old age is Makashi being so energy efficient (which makes Yoda's use of Ataru, a very energy intensive form, and Sheev's leeping around like it is nothing all the more impressive). I just don't think Dooku would have the stamina to keep up in a different form.

But another point to bring up is that Revan defeating Mandalore the Ultimate is even more impressive if you take supplemental material into account, where Mandalore is credited with defeating Jedi Malak with a single swing. That combined with the fact he was Taung (aka way above human level strength), and the leader of all of them at that, means that Revan defeating him was either a speed feat or a strength feat. I'm leaning speed feat, since he was said to also have defeated the strongest of the Echani "quickly". Not to mention facing armies of Dark Jedi and Sith several times, which would mean he was killing people in 1 to 2 blow attacks just to keep from being overwhelmed (this was during KOTOR 1 so he didn't have his memories, and he was on incredibly strong dark side nexus while being a light only user at the time) and being able to keep up with multiple opponents of Satele Shan's level simultaneously (Satele being credited with moving so fast she was compared to a wrecking ball, and even seemed to disappear at times).

But then again we have some brute force showings for Revan. Like him taking on 2 Teretataks (which shrug off most Force attacks) during KOTOR, and Underlurkers sometime prior to SWTOR.

I honestly do feel like that if Revan had been able to be trained by Yoda, and spar against people like Dooku and Mace, he would've been even more impressive in sabers.

We also know that two of Revan's preferred opening stances are Juyo and Jar Kai.
IF we were to consider the quote to be like that, then that would make valk also stornger than the son and abeloth, which is also not the case. im not gonna say sheev> valk for sure, valk isnt stronger than him either
What? No I'm just saying that force entities aren't included in the quote. Not that Valkorion is greater than Abeloth lol (although he could have been if he had been allowed to succeed in consuming the universe). And that's all I was meaning, was that they are comparable. Basically RotJ Palp somewhere around Valkorion and RotS Palp somewhere around Vitiate.
malgus using maelstrom doenst make him plagueis tier at all, and it never will. and thats a horrible argument. if we were to say "why didnt he use it in the this instance then??", we would get nowhere, since sheev didnt use anything aside from lightning against yoda, luke, and vader, and as u know, 2 of them killed him, and the other one was almost there too lol
The difference is the level of power used in it. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't take a certain level of power and skill to use it even at its base level. And while we are at it, yeah I would say that Malgus is slightly stronger than Dooku. Not enough to win more than like 50 50. Greater force power, weaker skill. Stronger physical strength, less speed.

And with Palpatine we clearly see him use other powers later on (plus he was just torturing Luke in the OT, why would he need to use a greater skill?), not to mention the fact that it is stated that Palpatine knows the powers. And once again, its a compound statement based on other observations of what Dooku is able to do with things like base lightning. Its not a stand alone observation.

neither vader nor revan have statements that they were one of the strongest force users ever born, or almost unparalleled in the force
Yeah they did. Anakin directly had Lucas backing. And Revan had the backing of multiple in universe statements, and developer statements.

"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force."- Kreia (KOTOR 2)

"The Force flows through you like no student we have ever seen."- Vrook Lamar (KOTOR)

"Yet even though you are a mere apprentice, your potential is unlimited"- Zhar Lestin (KOTOR)

"You - the Force is with you. So strong, so bright."- Ajunta Pall (KOTOR)

"The Jedi's command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength."- Scourge (this is also just referring to KOTOR Revan's strength at this point, he hadn't yet got his memories back)

"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else (Meetra Surik) had ever met". -Meetra (this is after her fighting Nihilus and Kreia btw).

"Revan was one of the strongest Force-wielders ever."- Chris Avellone Lead KOTOR 2 writer

"What do we know about the Jedi Master and this space station?" -SWTOR Protagonist  "Each could dominate worlds"- Malgus

"Unlike Revan or Bane, (Theron Shan) isn’t one of the most powerful individuals in the universe."- Drew Karpyshan, KOTOR 1 writer and Revan writer

"The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."- Michael Backus lead SWOTR designer

"Carry the legacy of the galaxy’s greatest hero with you into battle"- SWTOR website, speaking about how the protagonist is carrying on Revan's legacy

"Revan's a master tactician, and he's kind of a genius, and an incredible lightsaber wielder."- Chris Avellone

i dont think i need to point out the ignorance of that fight, correct? not using patterns is what all duelists should strive for. thats like saying that up until that point, vos didnt use anything but predictable moves, and then he thought "imagine if i didnt do that? what a great idea!". u feel me?
Of course not, I'm just saying anyone can have a slip up. Although just because you expect the unpredictable doesn't mean someone can't surprise you. Consider that Revan would be able to do it consistently, rather than only occasionally like Vos. That's why I give him a decent chance in just sabers (not greater than Dooku, just decent).
i agree, mine is also a mess hahaha
I hope you know I am enjoying the conversation.
now think that revan's potential is greater than dooku's, albeit, i do still think that dooku could have reached revan's power lvl, give enough time.
And that was just my point from the start, so appreciate this. It wasn't to lowball Dooku. My point was that even if Dooku COULD have learned more, so could Revan.


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 14th 2019, 12:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
Dolph
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on November 14th 2019, 9:56 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:mace was literally considered to have been the chosen one lol thats better than anything potential related that revan has.
How was Mace considered the chosen one? Anakin is the chosen one.
KingofBlades
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on November 14th 2019, 10:40 am
@caffeineandshiny good post. Your Revan stuff is on point. But Anakin is definitely on Yoda's level.
caffeineandshiny
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on November 14th 2019, 11:59 am
@KingofBlades wrote:@caffeineandshiny good post. Your Revan stuff is on point. But Anakin is definitely on Yoda's level.
I'm not talking about his spurts of energy, like controlling the Son and Daughter, or when he gets angry.

I'm talking about his constant output. Like him fighting Dooku in AotC, or before he got angry on the Invisible Hand.

There is a reason Yoda sent Obi Wan after Anakin. It was desperation, yes. But it was also because Anakin wasnt on Palpatine's level, aka Yoda's level.

Thank you for your appreciation!
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 14th 2019, 12:38 pm
i suppose ill counter only somethings, but not everything, as to make this longer than it needs to be lol

revans needs to stop getting these new forms and power ups hahaha its getting on my nerves by trying to keep up lol

that obi wan thing is a great example- in many comics and novels has old obi wan been said to have been weaker than vader, and was mostly standing his ground cuz vader had hesitancy in fighting him cuz of mustafar, (they mention fear of some sort, idk what its exactly talking about, and that vader knew that 1 hit would over for him, even tho he gets cut into pieces at least once a week lol, and some other shit that i forgot about lol) while obi wan was trying his best to not get cut in half, but then lucas goes and says "old obi wan> vader" and im like, huh???, so u know, sometimes im just like, bruh. but i agree, overpowered vader fits the role much better in my eyes (he has quite literally never actually been portrayed as weak in the first, and was always considered a mosnter, so when people bring in lucas quotes, i get fucking 'litty')

i mean, ventress could summon the dead pretty casually, and thats supposed to be hard, while bane said it himself, i believe, to have trouble with it, albeit, he didnt like it, from what i hear, so maybe it has to do with that- didnt like it, so didnt train it enough.

thats something else im talking about lol, not even anakin in mortis could bring back the dead without help, and revan just does it lol

u know what i meant lol

animal related feats are quite shit tbh hahahaha

he said that he found the holocron impressive, that doenst mean anything aside from that. and he never said when he grew from it lol, plus, like we both know, bane was brought up in basic sith arts, while dooku, who did know about the sith arts, never 'learned' them until he left the jedi, where in he started his training. plus, andeddu's holocron was quite advanced- bane had just already learned all that stuff from before, since he did have stuff from fucking freedon nadd, the best sorcer/alchemist of all the sith until like, prime vitiate or some shit like that. but yes, dooku was always learning more, after all, he did have a lot of information to cover, and 2 apprentices to train, and a war to fight, whom he had to actively lead.

revan rushed his training waaaay more than dooku ever did. both wanted to learn more all the time, but revan's case was quite extreme. u just proved my point with that quote lol

kreia was getting completely crushed by nihilus- i cant see him doing that to dooku at all. idk if u mean kreia in the mega nexus tho, which makes more sense, i suppose.

i think only palpatine speaks about sabers. i think both plagueis and yoda speak about him in overall sense, more than once. 

it says "was thought" meaning thats what they think happened, which is not the case anymore lol

i know anakin> dooku in base in ROTS lol thats what i was referring to when i said "strongest jedi" lol. and him being above dooku in base already puts close to yoda. yoda is by no means like, say, 10 times stronger than dooku. more like 3 or 4 if anything. anakin was getting close to that for sure.

palpatine says in ROTS that anakin is better than him tho...

ROTJ palps is a good deal stronger than ROTS, no way valk is that strong.

where does greater power come from? force pushing people?

the best statement there is from the guy who created revan, who also said revan would stomp darth vader lol, and the second part is about skill

lucky for revan that he is quite good at hand to hand, which is what i like about him

same, i actually learned something lol

oh i know revan couldve learned more for sure yeah. he couldve been a ROTJ sheev given enough time. im just saying that dooku couldve reached power close to revan's in some time as well, given that he couldve also reached yoda lvl power.
BreakofDawn
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on November 14th 2019, 12:45 pm
This Revan ~ Vitiate scaling is so faulty, to be honest. Saying Revan is more powerful than a comatose, brink of death Vitiate (who, per his codex entry, had most of his existing power locked away) is hardly indicative of him being around as strong as SWTOR Vitiate:


When most of the Emperor's power was locked away on Yavin 4, he was no longer able to hide Vaylin's strength from her, and she finally got a taste of her full capabilities. 

Scaling Revan off an iteration of Vitiate who was even weaker than the one who was pretty far inferior to act 3 HoT is hardly impressive, and it does not in any way give him scaling to Ziost considering that Vitiate received a power boost from the coalition vs Revanites war which then gave him the strength to begin possessing small groups of people and expand from there as he regained more of his strength.
caffeineandshiny
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on November 14th 2019, 12:49 pm
WalkingInCircles wrote:This Revan ~ Vitiate scaling is so faulty, to be honest. Saying Revan is more powerful than a comatose, brink of death Vitiate (who, per his codex entry, had most of his power locked away) is hardly indicative of him being around as strong as SWTOR Vitiate.
No one is saying he is as strong as Valkorion prime.
KingofBlades
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on November 14th 2019, 12:53 pm
@WalkinginCircles
Yes, because that's the only incarnation of Vitiate that Revan is more powerful than. Riiight. It's not like Revan>>>>>Act 3 HoT>Act 3 Vitiate>>>Comatose Vitiate or anything. It's not like Vitiate spent 300 years trying to Telepathically dominate Revan's mind. Unsuccessfully, I might add. It's not like Vitiate attempted to break Revan's mind in two because of his immense power when whole. Yep. No parity whatsoever.
BreakofDawn
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on November 14th 2019, 1:01 pm
Yes, because that's the only incarnation of Vitiate that Revan is more powerful than. Riiight. It's not like Revan>>>>>Act 3 HoT>Act 3 Vitiate>>>Comatose Vitiate or anything.
Your sarcasm pretty much fails when I already mentioned this. 



It's not like Vitiate spent 300 years trying to Telepathically dominate Revan's mind.
...Except he didn't. He wasn't just sitting on a chair constantly trying to break Revan's mind, lol. He was trying to build Zakuul throughout those 300 years. 



Unsuccessfully, I might add.
Even a preoccupied Vitiate was about to break Revan's mind after 300 years despite Meetra's help. 


It's not like Vitiate attempted to break Revan's mind in two because of his immense power when whole.

He literally wanted to turn Revan back to the dark side, not split his power. The hell is this based on? Vitiate's intentions during Revan's imprisonment were to turn him back into Darth Revan and to draw upon his connection to the light side, that's it.


P.S: Your sarcasm really needs work.
KingofBlades
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on November 14th 2019, 1:53 pm
@WalkinginCircles
Did I ever say Vitiate spent every second of every day trying to break Revan. No I did not. Despite Vitiate dividing up his attention across various enterprises, the idea that he was only using part of his power to try to break Revan is absolutely absurd. Breaking Revan was literally the most important objective Vitiate had for at least the years prior to Zakuul's creation.  Since Vitate delegated the matters of ruling the sith empire to the DC, we can safely assume that for the years prior to Zakuul, Vitiate spent nearly all of his effort into breaking Revan. But this is beside the point. The idea that Vitiate being preoccupied isn't as important as you make it out to be. Vitiate can focus the attention and power of all his voices into one objective whenever he chooses to. Considering the degree of Revan's importance, the idea that Vitiate wouldn't do this is frankly a bit outlandish. Yep, Vitiate, despite being far more powerful than Revan, and knowing the information Revan had could be enormously important, decided to half ass his domination attempts. In fact he even decided to bring in the Dread Masters as aid, despite being completely able to TP dominate Revan if he really really wanted to. There's also this quote:

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."


Do you realize how completely retarded this statement would be if Revan and Vitiate shared no parity. Yep watch this struggle(which isn't actually a struggle because Revan isn't close to Vitiate at all) between two of the most powerful force users ever. Oh and yes Vitiate did explicitly attempt to shatter Revan's mind in two.


"So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart, to unleash my anger and hatred."

"That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together. / Each part of you was needed as much as the other. The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together."
PS: I admit I prematurely responded without reading your whole post, which is why I brought up the scaling chain. 
BreakofDawn
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on November 14th 2019, 2:15 pm
Did I ever say Vitiate spent every second of every day trying to break Revan. No I did not.

So what are you saying? He spent a couple of minutes? A few years? 299.5 years? Be specific with what you're trying to say instead of painting a character's feats in broad strokes.


Despite Vitiate dividing up his attention across various enterprises, the idea that he was only using part of his power to try to break Revan is absolutely absurd. Breaking Revan was literally the most important objective Vitiate had for at least the years prior to Zakuul's creation.

He began building the Eternal Empire "centuries" before the second Galactic Civil War:


"I found Valkorion centuries ago. He was a great warrior. A champion of ancient Zakuul. It was only natural I hollow him out to use as my vessel."



Since Vitate delegated the matters of ruling the sith empire to the DC

Vitiate still remained pretty active in the Sith Empire:


After the Great Hyperspace War, the Sith Emperor had successfully led his people to the sanctuary of Dromund Kaas. Having re-established the Empire there, he slowly withdrew from public life, leaving the Empire's administration to his Dark Council.

At first the Dark Council was subservient to the Emperor. But as centuries passed and the Emperor remained withdrawn, the Dark Council became more independent, believing he was weakening. When the council discovered the Emperor was planning to invade the Republic, there was angry dissent. Naga Sadow's failed invasion of the Republic a millennium before had almost destroyed the Empire; some believed it would be madness to repeat his mistake.

Several of the Dark Council's members decided to depose the Emperor before he led them to destruction. But the Emperor learned of their intentions and the entire Dark Council, loyalists and dissenters alike, was purged. The price of disobedience made clear, a new council was chosen and the Emperor's plans proceeded.


He also would return to his Vitiate alias when an event or individual was worth his attention, such as the HoT.


The idea that Vitiate being preoccupied isn't as important as you make it out to be. Vitiate can focus the attention and power of all his voices into one objective whenever he chooses to. 

Which he didn't do. Even the novel confirms he was distant several times.


Considering the degree of Revan's importance, the idea that Vitiate wouldn't do this is frankly a bit outlandish.

I think you overestimate Revan's importance. Vitiate wanted him back as Darth Revan, yes, but he wasn't even remotely crucial to his short-term or long-term plans.


Yep, Vitiate, despite being far more powerful than Revan, and knowing the information Revan had could be enormously important, decided to half ass his domination attempts

Mate, literally the entire point of Zakuul was that Vitiate stopped giving a flying crap about the Sith Empire. He even derides and casts aside everything to do with the Sith, calling the empire a "failed experiment". What happened there was of no concern to him by the time he'd fully established the Eternal Empire. Revan thought Vitiate was still interested in just conquering the Republic, not in either A) consuming the galaxy, or B) founding a new empire and abandoning his past.


In fact he even decided to bring in the Dread Masters as aid, despite being completely able to TP dominate Revan if he really really wanted to.

The Dread Masters fought throughout the Great Galactic War (which was about 30 years long) and were imprisoned for another 11-15 years before the Cold War ended. And the Dread Masters also failed to dominate the Emperor's Wrath or Darth Nox long before their prime, so...


"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."


Do you realize how completely retarded this statement would be if Revan and Vitiate shared no parity. Yep watch this struggle(which isn't actually a struggle because Revan isn't close to Vitiate at all) between two of the most powerful force users ever. 

So he shares parity with a comatose, brink of death Vitiate who was far weaker than ever before while Revan was at his strongest ever. Big whoop, lol. 


"So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart, to unleash my anger and hatred."

It's almost as though Vitiate wanted him to become Darth Revan again.


"That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together. / Each part of you was needed as much as the other. The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together."
Ok? Which proves...what, exactly? It didn't weaken him power wise.


"You've 
carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust. Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see."

"Strength is useless without wisdom to guide it."

PS: I admit I prematurely responded without reading your whole post, which is why I brought up the scaling chain. 

I figured.
caffeineandshiny
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on November 14th 2019, 3:09 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i suppose ill counter only somethings, but not everything, as to make this longer than it needs to be lol
I think we are winding down at this point, so anything else will probably be just an "agree to disagree".

i mean, ventress could summon the dead pretty casually,
What? O.o If you are referring to when Grievous attacked the Nightsisters, it was one of the elder sisters that did. In fact the implication was that even Mother Talzin couldn't do it (not saying for sure, just the implication).
but yes, dooku was always learning more, after all, he did have a lot of information to cover, and 2 apprentices to train,and a war to fight, whom he had to actively lead.
The holocron bit was that he grew from it, that's all we know. Regardless of whether you think it was greatly or not.

And you do realize that Revan went through two consecutive wars, that he was in charge of leading, right? And was credited for being the reason that the Republic didn't lose the war against the Mandalorians (which the Republic was actively losing until he took charge). He literally turned a losing situation into a win, and a decisive enough win that he still had enough vanguard forces to go and start pushing on the Republic's defenses, bringing them to their knees. Plus training assassins and dark Jedi.

"As a Sith, Revan was a teacher who trained a thousand dark apprentices."- Dzoun

"So Revan trained elite Sith units into assassination squads, whose duty was to go out and capture enemy Jedi."- Atton Rand

revan rushed his training waaaay more than dooku ever did. both wanted to learn more all the time, but revan's case was quite extreme. u just proved my point with that quote lol
Again, Dooku went as fast as he was able. Someone doing something faster doesn't mean they are rushing it when compared to someone who is also power hungry.

So I stand by my statement. It wasn't just the Revan craved knowledge. He was also a faster learner.

And no, the quote proved that your claim that "Revan wasn't being held back by his teachers" was false.

kreia was getting completely crushed by nihilus- i cant see him doing that to dooku at all.
That's because Nihilus isn't really using drain. Its so much more than that. And I can absolutely see Nihilus draining Dooku if Dooku couldn't defend against a normal drain (albeit from a top level user, Mother Talzin).

That being said, Nihilus really relied on the energy that he gained from his drain. So as a base Jedi, before he became a wound, he really wasn't that impressive (we are led to believe at least).
i think only palpatine speaks about sabers. i think both plagueis and yoda speak about him in overall sense, more than once. 
Once again, considering that Plagueis was only using statements in order to keep Palpatine in line, you have to take them with a grain of salt.


it says "was thought" meaning thats what they think happened, which is not the case anymore lol
No, it means that they don't know exactly what was destroyed. It doesn't mean that they have changed their minds on how much was destroyed (again, it means they don't know for sure. They only know what Gean knew for sure that Gravid destroyed)
palpatine says in ROTS that anakin is better than him tho...
That is typical encouragement. He was fluffing Anakin's ego, trying to show him that he made the right choice and that Palpatine is the only one who truly understands him. He is also bragging about what Anakin will become. Which is 100% stronger than Palpatine (literally. Lucas said Anakin had 2x Palpatine's potential before he got injured).

And once again, Anakin was basically even to Dooku ever since AotC.

ROTJ palps is a good deal stronger than ROTS, no way valk is that strong.
Talking about pure force power. Not who would win. And yeah, they are comparable in raw power. Not DE Sidious, just RotJ. Valk was walking around with the literal Force power of entire planets (not just the inhabitants but the actual Force of the planet itself, to the point that Nathema could be felt as a "hole" in the Force long before you even got to it).

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/3/30874/5402581-7557022254-U6fb5.gif  

^ Zoist

Not to mention that Valkorion has shown he has complete mastery over his power while Sidious is still in many respects learning (that's kinda to be expected when you have 1300 years to practice though lol). For example, in DE Sidious could only imperfectly control the Force Storm he summoned.

where does greater power come from? force pushing people?
"Power went before him in a wave of visible distortion....he landed in a cocoon of power, hitting the ground in an explosion of might that shattered the stones around them and turned them into a hail of shrapnel"- Deceived


"As Aryn prepared to leap at Malgus, he held forth a hand, almost casually, and lightning sizzled through the space between them. Aryn interposed her lightsabers, but the power in the lightning exceeded anything she had felt from Malgus before. It blasted through her defenses and both lightsabers flew from her hands. The lightning seized her, lifted her up, and threw her from the top of the shuttle."- Deceived

Also note that Aryn is incredibly talented in the Force, able to move 6 cars of a cargo tram with a gesture, and is also skilled in tutaminis (she was able to deflect a force wave capable of toppling two large statues with a gesture).

"Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him"

Malgus does this while injured, and far from his prime.

"The strength of my scream buckled the bridge's transparisteel viewport and left the crew's ears bleeding. More gratifyingly, my rage overloaded the fuel slugs of an incoming wave of Aureks. The bright bursts of their deaths raised a smile."- Book of the Sith

Aureks are starfighters.

Not to mention Malgus was a tank (and all the other times he easily killed other Jedi and Sith with lightning, utterly overwhelming their attempts to block his lightning with sabers and the Force, kills strong Force users via Force chokes, and tanks other Sith lightning and then sends it back at them, etc etc)

the best statement there is from the guy who created revan, who also said revan would stomp darth vader lol, and the second part is about skill
What are you talking about, there are multiple direct statements from different people listing him as one of the strongest Force wielders ever. Not just most skilled. Strongest. Hence the words like "strong" and "powerful". Several of them are also are timeless.

The only reason I included the lightsaber comment was because everything else was referring to Force power.

And the Darth Vader comment was specifically listed as an opinion. Which is why I didn't include it. Its not an official statement about the character.

The only one that could be interpreted as a skill statement was the one from Meetra (and even then its just an interpretation). All the others are directly about power.

lucky for revan that he is quite good at hand to hand, which is what i like about him
Where did hand-to-hand come from? And yeah, Revan mastered the Mandalorian and Echani fighting styles.

Basically in closing, I am glad I could bring you around on Revan. And I appreciate your enthusiasm! How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 3 228124001


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 14th 2019, 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)
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