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caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 2:02 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:luke learning all he could from obi wan and yoda i 2 or so years is a made up number? ok man, u do that.

and he became a master of the dark side 5 years after leaving the order my man. revan being a sith lord for 6 years and still learning is shit compared to dooku, who btw, had more knowledge to learn from than revan ever did.

and dooku can one shot ventress with his little impressive lightning. yoda said that deflecting it wasnt easy at all. i wanna see revan do better lol

and i dont see where u find this mega hungryness that dooku supposedly had. i wanna see where thats from, man. wanting to learn is one thing. being like revan and exar kun is another.

and revan tried much harder than dooku, from what i can tell. and dooku had much more knowledge than revan, so he learned more stuff in a lesser amount of time.

there is literally no proof that he was close to his cap. by TPM, when he literally one of the strongest jedi in history by that point, he gained a huge amp just by using the dark side, while not even being fully trained in it ways yet. he also grew a good bit throughout the clone wars too. he was always getting stronger.

and yoda isnt a resource, neither is sidious. yoda wouldnt teach dooku all that he know in the first place, and sidious doenst teach his pupils personally at all. maul is a maybe cuz he had more time to do so, and he was his first apprentice.

mace was literally considered to have been the chosen one lol thats better than anything potential related that revan has.

galen is said to have sheev+ potential my man
No, I was saying that you claiming Dooku could've done better in his youth by taking decades off the amount of time he was learning at the temple, with no evidence he wasn't trying his hardest and you just pulling that "fact" out of thin air, is a made up number. And now that you bring it up, Luke learning everything Yoda had to offer in 2 years is a made up number too. He no where NEAR learned even as much as he needed for Yoda to even consider him full fledged knight. Much less all that Yoda had to offer lol.

And why are you even bringing up Luke may I ask? How on earth does that help Dooku's case?

Okay...yeah we'll just pretend Revan wasn't the origin of things like the Thought Bomb during his 4 years (not 6) as a Dark Lord. Please name one technique that Dooku learned that Revan didn't know. The only thing he ever demonstrated he was better at than Revan was Makashi.

Okay?....Revan one shot Nyriss to the point she was a pile of ash on the ground (literally, not figuratively) and he was weakened at the time that he did it, and he still did it effortlessly. On top of that Nyriss>>Ventress.

Dooku was so power hungry that he was disappointed he didn't get assigned to Lene Kostana, specifically because he was trying to hunt down all relics that he could that were associated with the darkside. Largely out of a desire for more power. I really shouldn't have to explain stuff that you could learn just by reading his Wookiepedia page, much less the actual texts associated with his youth. Face it: Dooku was a power hungry elitist, and while he might not have maintained that ABSOLUTE MAX he could have through his entire life he still had 40+ years on Revan, all the while getting stronger and hunting down information.

And since you so kindly compared Revan's knowledge seeking to Exar Kun's knowledge seeking, I will bring up this quote: "The Force flows through you like no student we have ever seen". -Vrook Lamar to Revan. This is the man who was in charge of the Dantooine temple, which is where Exar Kun's training took place as well.

Dooku had less knowledge than Revan Reborn (and FAR less than SoR Revan), and MORE time to seek it out. He sought out knowledge his entire life, which was double the length of Revan Reborn's. He also had twice as long to train, and for a large part of his life he was able to spar against people like Yoda and Sidious in lightsaber combat. Revan never had that opportunity, he was THE greatest warrior of his age with no one to really hone his skills against (except Malak, who was his inferior).

And Revan was getting stronger to the point he was maybe a tier below an opponent that literally had the power of a planet (and 8,000 Sith Lords), even while he was weakened from long captivity. To the point that he was a "legitimate" threat to Vitiate. Not to mention that Revan wasn't merely one of the strongest Jedi, he was one of the strongest FORCE users ever. Which puts him up against Jedi, Sith, Dark Jedi, people that are none of the above (like Vitiate). (and actually every Dooku quote I can find says that he was one of the strongest of his time, not in all of history, but I'll be willing to concede to anyone who finds a quote that implies all time)

This isn't even bringing up that it is provable that Revan never reached his max potential (or even demonstrated what he would have been capable of at his current power level, had he not been split in half mentally). It is not provable that Dooku didn't reach his potential, especially when it comes to raw power. The only thing you could argue is that Dooku could have expanded his repertoire with more information. And even then, he was actively doing that his whole life, he wasn't just sitting back in an old folks home like you seem to be implying.

Okay...Dooku having Yoda as his master and regularly getting to spar against the practically the greatest lightsaber master in all of Star Wars isn't a resource. Got it. But seriously, I never said that Yoda and Sidious taught Dooku all they knew. I simply stated that having the opportunity to learn from those two is a greater opportunity than Revan ever had with his masters. In fact I'd even go so far as to say it was a greater opportunity than Revan being able to steal snippets of information here and there from Vitiate, seeing as both Yoda and Sidious are in the same tier as Vitiate in the Force (and greater than him in sabers).

And yet with all that we still have Dooku coming up short against Revan Reborn (and no, I'm not saying Revan Reborn stomp. I'm saying that Revan was the better of the two) and inferior completely to SoR Revan (who, again, was "not nearly" as good separated from his light half as he would have been whole). And Revan still had half a lifetime left to live to get even stronger.

Mace is literally considered the chosen one? That's a new one, haven't heard that before. Mace's ego THINKING he was the chosen one? Well that would explain his resistance to accepting Anakin as the chosen one. (I'm kidding I'm kidding, please don't go all "how DARE you disrespect Mace!!!!") But seriously, Revan was actually considered to be the Sith'ari by many, even after his death. And while I admit that Mace vs Revan Reborn would be a VERY close fight, I still don't see Mace matching Revan's potential, especially in terms of raw power.

And I reiterate: Mace and Dooku both regularly trained with and sparred against Yoda. Who did Revan have that would have given him that opportunity? If Revan had been sparring with Yoda the way they had I would 100% stand behind saying he would equal them (Mace and Dooku) in sabers. As it was he was close.

I would also say that had Revan had the opportunity to spar against Sidious, like Dooku had, the same would be true.

I already said that game Galen would be comparable to Revan's potential (slightly greater in raw power but lesser in other areas). But I stand behind the statement that the official version of Galen as depicted in the novel would not.

I also didn't realize that hype statements were taken as indisputable proof. So here we go:
"Yet even though you are a mere apprentice, your (Revan's) potential is unlimited".

"The Revan (Darth Revan pre KOTOR 1) was here yesterday. It is a gift to be in the presence. I felt the Force- it travels below your skin, straight to the heart, lungs, the gut. A warmth and a chill"- Ongree Servant saying how Revan was a force nexus so strong that he, a non Force user, could feel the Force

"The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond- Revan and the Emperor" - Michael Backus, lead KOTOR designer

I can keep going (with even better hype statements) but I was trying to keep this to feats for the most part.

I would honestly place SoR Revan in the same category as Plagueis (equal in some areas, greater and lesser in others). This also taking into consideration that SoR Revan wasn't even at 100% during his showings, and Plagueis is stated to be stronger than Phantom Menace Palpatine, at least in the EU (according to the Plagueis author).

And I would put Dooku as an older version of what Malak might have been capable of (I personally think Malak doesn't receive near the recognition he deserves).
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 2:16 pm
WalkingInCircles wrote:If Star Wars was like Harry Potter, then yes he'd have more knowledge. However, Revan learned techniques lost to time. They're comparable, but Revan is definitely more knowledgeable. I'd say he's around the same level as Yoda or Sidious in terms of know-how.
Appreciate this. Regardless of whether you agree with what I've been saying or not.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 3:00 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
WalkingInCircles wrote:
mace was literally considered to have been the chosen one lol thats better than anything potential related that revan has.

When was Mace considered the Chosen One? I've only seen this once, and it was a fan theory for why Mace didn't trust Anakin.

As for Mace's Force showings, he has a similar problem to Vader in terms of portrayals. It's important to distinguish between pre-2005 Mace (who was a peer of Dooku's but firmly behind Yoda by a decent margin) and 2005 onwards Mace, who was a peer of Sidious and Yoda. Honestly, his redirection of a blast from Sidious despite numerous disadvantages and holding off Sheev's lightning for a time despite Sidious basically going all out and him being exhausted impresses me as much if not more than Revan's feats. Just my opinion.

As for Revan, again he only lost his wisdom and restraint. It didn't weaken him power wise, only made him very gullible and easy to manipulate. The guy is firmly above the likes of Dooku and Arcann in power, not sure why this is shameful as a position. He's behind only the ROTS titans (Mace, Yoda, MFV, Sidious) as well as maybe Plagueis, Valk, GM Luke, the Outlander and unchained Vaylin in pure power off the top of my head.
Seeing as how I have already covered that all he lost WASN'T just his wisdom and restraint, as well as the fact that you downplay just how much wisdom and restraint have in battle, as well as the fact you are still acting like that was his potential cap, I'm not really going to get into this again when you havent even responded to my rebuttal in the other thread.

And the only time Mace has shown himself able to actually hold off Sidious' lightning was in canon (and even then it was very obvious Sidious wasn't going nearly all out, and was playing up the "help me I'm an old man" bit) this is irrelevant.

Because we are talking about the EU and in the EU Sidious was toying with Mace the whole time.

Also in canon, Lucas made it clear the lightsaber was what was holding off the lightning. Mace was simply being forced to hold onto it physically (which is still impressive but not nearly as impressive as if Sidious had been going all out, much less if Mace had been empty handed)

So again I say that Revan is not only greater than Mace in actual battle, he has greater potential.


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 7th 2019, 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 3:04 pm
IDK where, but in DE, luke says that he learned all that yoda could teach him, or something along those lines. doenst mean everything, but it does show how fast a shitty force user like him can learn, when compared to dooku, who could move shit with his mind when he was 7, i think. to give u an example, vitiate, the mega force user out there, could could first move it at 6 years old

u really like revan, so i suppose we'll give a somewhat visual example. first of course, we gotta get an even ground set up? do u think dooku learned everything (that he could learn, at least) as a jedi? that would mean that as far as light side abilities go, they are even, with dooku maybe even having the advantage, since, like u said, he was taught by yoda since he was 12 y/o.

now, who do u think learned more stuff as sith? revan with much less knowledge available to him in 4 years, or dooku in 10 years, who had the best holocrons that sheev could find at his disposal?

as for the potential thing, dooku is stated to be the most gifted apprentice in the order by the time he came around, in Dark Rendezvous, by his master, and by the narrator, if im not wrong. this puts him above revan, exar kun, ulic, meetra, freedon nadd, etc as far as potential based statements go lol in insider 113, it said that he could become as powerful as yoda, so thats a legit stated yoda lvl potential right there.

said to also be one the jedi's greatest legends (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia))- this is yet again, yoda lvl hype

yoda also considers him to be the most learned and wise of the jedi in Dark Rendezvous. 

i could get the exact quotes for the above, but for now, i only have the sources. sorry.

another thing, semi unrelated, is that while a lot of banite sith are hella strong just by themselves, and have pretty big potential all in all, most of them, in their primes, have their powers lvl thanks to the amp of killing their masters, so i dont think one could say that like, because plagueis>>> bane in power, he is also >>> bane in potential, if u know what i mean
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 3:58 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:IDK where, but in DE, luke says that he learned all that yoda could teach him, or something along those lines. doenst mean everything, but it does show how fast a shitty force user like him can learn, when compared to dooku, who could move shit with his mind when he was 7, i think. to give u an example, vitiate, the mega force user out there, could could first move it at 6 years old

u really like revan, so i suppose we'll give a somewhat visual example. first of course, we gotta get an even ground set up? do u think dooku learned everything (that he could learn, at least) as a jedi? that would mean that as far as light side abilities go, they are even, with dooku maybe even having the advantage, since, like u said, he was taught by yoda since he was 12 y/o.

now, who do u think learned more stuff as sith? revan with much less knowledge available to him in 4 years, or dooku in 10 years, who had the best holocrons that sheev could find at his disposal?

as for the potential thing, dooku is stated to be the most gifted apprentice in the order by the time he came around, in Dark Rendezvous, by his master, and by the narrator, if im not wrong. this puts him above revan, exar kun, ulic, meetra, freedon nadd, etc as far as potential based statements go lol in insider 113, it said that he could become as powerful as yoda, so thats a legit stated yoda lvl potential right there.

said to also be one the jedi's greatest legends (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia))- this is yet again, yoda lvl hype

yoda also considers him to be the most learned and wise of the jedi in Dark Rendezvous. 

i could get the exact quotes for the above, but for now, i only have the sources. sorry.

another thing, semi unrelated, is that while a lot of banite sith are hella strong just by themselves, and have pretty big potential all in all, most of them, in their primes, have their powers lvl thanks to the amp of killing their masters, so i dont think one could say that like, because plagueis>>> bane in power, he is also >>> bane in potential, if u know what i mean
Wow. I really don't know where to start with that one. First: quote please? On the Luke bit. And secondly you calling Luke shitty force user.....I can't tell if you are serious or not. This is Luke...the guy stronger than DE Sidious....

But moving along.

Given how Revan stacks against Vitiate even after Vitiate consumed a planet and 8,000 with lords I would 100% stand behind the statement that Revan Reborn > Vitiate pre Nathema.

You are kinda illustrating my point for me. That Revan did more with less. He was stronger, and he was a faster learner (obtaining more knowledge in less time, even with having to seek out his resources rather than having Sidious on hand) even when both of them were serious.

Jedi Revan= (give or take) ALL the years Dooku was a Jedi
Then Sith Revan learned things that even Bane didn't think he would ever dare to use.
So Revan is slightly ahead as Darth Revan.
Then you have to take into account his ability to use both sides at the time, which gives him an advantage over even just plain learning and raw power.

So I reiterate Revan Reborn > Dooku.

I also find it funny how you went from saying that Yoda and Sidious had no impact on Dooku at all to claiming it as a point of pride. I guess I succeeded in convincing you of that much.

I don't really care how much you like or dislike a character, and I don't see how it matters.

How on earth does that put him above all those people? He was the greatest learner in the Order. Not the greatest student of all time. Just one of the best in his CURRENT Order.

One of Star Wars greatest legends is not a power statement. Its saying that he was a legend. Aka memorable, someone talked about all the time.

Once again, if we are taking hype statements like "he had Yoda potential" into account then you must equally take into account statements like "unlimited" potential.

You are also ignoring that Revan didn't just have statements about his potential, he actually achieved power comparable (albeit not equal) to Vitiate, and kept lock step with Vitiate's future power gains (and again, not equal). Vitiate > Yoda raw power. Yoda > Vitiate sabers (obviously). (And no I'm not saying Vitiate would win in a fight. I see Yoda as being way more skilled, and just overall better. I'm just talking about raw force power).

Once again this "most learned and wise" comment is referring to the current set of Jedi. Not all time.

It's just like the "Order's greatest champion" quote doesn't place Revan above Exar Kun. It is only talking about the current order. What DOES place Revan above Exar Kun are comments comparing Exar Kun to Malak, and also comments like the one from Vrook who also was around during Exar Kun's time.

I will give you this, I appreciate your candor about your lack of the actual quotes and your politeness.

I agree to an extent with your side tangent. However they didn't get an amp from killing their masters. They simply gained power through the generations (in theory) by every generation improving upon the learning of the previous. However there were several times that Banite sith killed masters that were stronger than them, so the power progress was not as great as it could have been in theory.

Palpatine, while he eventually achieved power greater than Plagueis, was one of these students and later regretted his assessment that he had no more to learn from Plagueis, especially when it came to manipulating midichlorians.

I take it you don't disagree with my SoR Revan "same category" as Plagueis comment?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 4:38 pm
i was talking about skill and control while around ESB, in which yes, he was shitty when compared to dooku and revan, that much is obvious.

honestly, pre nathema, vitiate had almost nothing going for him lol idk much about his pre nathema self, but aside from stronger than of the dark council members, thats about it lol

u seem to have this knowledge that it took dooku his whole jedi career to learn what he learned, which is not true whatsoever. is it possible? of course it is. is it likely? not at all when we have him master everything basic, and more, about the dark side in only 5 years (idk if i said this, but it might be from the thrawn series). 

bane knew things that revan also didnt know, which is something one should take into account. revan wasnt dumb, he learned good, effective, useful force powers. why would he need a power to like, warm his body and other semi useless shit like that, when the guy has such advanced precog? see what i mean? im not saying that bane is shit, nor that revan is old and lacking, but dooku did study bane's holocron. why does this matter? whether or not bane used said powers he found out from revan's holocron, he clearly knew them, and he put them all, revan's and his own, into his holocron. then u add in 20 something other holocrons from the other banite sith, then a shitton of great jedi/sith holocron that sheev and the jedi order themselves had, and u can kinda understand why i think dooku> force powers in quantity. this is not about quality. i know revan has better stuff. im just talking about quantity.

u completely ignored my point of dooku consistently giving yoda a good fight(ish) and the fact that he only grew stronger after that. i see no reason why revan reborn would be above dooku, when dooku himself has fought some who matched sheev, who is stronger than valk. im not saying dooku= yoda, i know he is weaker, but thats honestly a better feat than fighting pre prime vitiate.

i didnt actually change my mind on that, but i did take ur point to heart. its not like yoda didnt teach him shit after all lol

the word they use is gifted. as in, gifted in the force. he, by that point, had equal to, or greater potential in the force than the people i mentioned. it also says better learned in the force, which included yoda btw. this is consistent with him and yoda being equals, as far as force goes, aside form power of course, as stated in AOTC.

yoda never does show much of his power, but then again, neither does sidious, so i digress. for example, sheev was stronger than dooku, but he never showed anything other than strangling him while dooku was completely unsuspecting, while valk one shotted, whats his name, sith lord in a full body armor/suit. marr, i think. thats a better feat overall, but doesnt make him stronger than sheev, nor does it make him stronger than yoda.

those quotes can depends on such things of course. im not saying they dont. but i could say something similar about revan- u really think his 'unlimited potential' quote isnt flowery lingo?

yeah, the amp isnt from their masters, its actually bane's own power lol i remember when i first learned about that, i was like, dafuck?? and yeah, sheev was a complete monster when compared to the banite sith. the guy had like, 10 years or so into his training, and was reaching plagueis lvl power. thats some anakin lvl shit lol

i think plagueis is stronger, but honestly, not by much. i place valk above him, but vitiate below. if prime revan= vitiate pre valk, than yeah, they are kinda equals. i think revan is more hax, while plagueis is faster and smarter, revan is more experienced, etc etc etc
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 6:20 pm
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Dark Holocron for knowledge.

Darth Rivan's Holocron for an amp since the Gatekeeper became sentient and could amp people.
Thank you for your input!

Would you rate Darth Rivan's holocron higher than the Malachor Sith holocron, being that it was also sentient and could amp?

This will be a little speculatory so bear with me.

The backstory, and it also seems to be the biggest source of the Darkside now in the Academy:

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen55


It amps Draco significantly:
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It seems to be its own Nexus:
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Backed up by it hindering the heroes and powering up Draco in his vicinity.

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It allows Draco to seemingly create Dreambeasts with ambient or possibly internal darkside energy that are semi tangible and can cause damage in the real world.

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Then it allows Draco, or "Darth Rivan" to control a 200m Dragon that can nigh-instantly slag the building they're in.
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Also if Draco gets hit by Sever Force it just seems to cut off his amp as well, but anyway, nothing too major. Just seems intentioned to be pretty potent. You also need to use "a destiny point" along with Sever Force to destroy the Holocron as well if that means anything as Sever Force on its own only temporarily disables it.

If however the Holocron became the biggest concentration of Darkside energy on the planet, then that has some pretty nasty implications seeing as Almas was pretty deeply steeped in the Darkside.

So, again, nothing too great in way of feats, but it seems pretty powerful. Be curious to see to see what other Holocrons have in way of feats though. I know Ferus had one that amped him to above 18BBY Vader level and he wasn't sure if the Jedi Temple generator could destroy it.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 7th 2019, 6:29 pm
ferus had a banite holocron, i think and even then, vader was still stronger than him, i believe.
Master Azronger
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 8th 2019, 5:05 am
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
Azronger wrote:@caffeineandshiny Welcome to the forum.

To answer your question, The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology states the Dark Holocron is the most powerful Sith holocron. However, the statement is a bit problematic since the Dark Holocron was destroyed by Exar Kun, yet Dooku is noted to have somehow studied it. The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection does implicitly fix this plothole, though, by stating Dooku studied "a Dark Holocron" rather than "the" Dark Holocron, implying that there are multiple ones. But this then complicates the matter of what Sith holocron is the most powerful considerably.

Thank you! And thank you for your comprehensive response!

I have always wondered about Dooku possessing that and it always seemed "off" to me. Now you have provided a way that I don't have to reconcile Dooku having the Dark Holocron with the problems I see.

Number 1 of those problems is that Dooku seemed "weak" for what he should have been by having THE most powerful holocron. Now I know that having something doesn't mean you know everything it has to offer (and holocrons are notorious for withholding information correct?) but it seems to me that Dooku's power should have increased much more after he went to the darkside. Vs its seemed like (to me) his increase in power was less than a tier from when he was light.

And number 2, the bigger issue is that I don't see Palpatine allowing Dooku to keep a holocron that is "better" than the Telos holocron. Of course that is assuming he found out, which is no guarentee.

How would you rate the various named (sith) holocrons? If hype were to be believed 100%. Or is it impossible to say even taking hype into account?

Actually, Darth Plagueis told Sidious during his training that "real knowledge" was passed down from Master to apprentice in lessons that weren't recorded, and regarded holocrons as "spurious sources" that should only be studied after one has perfected their power in their own way. In accordance with this, despite having studied a Dark Holocron and being among the most learned Jedi Masters of the time, the training under Sidious "introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies" according to the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and Dooku noted he had gained "infinitely greater power" as a result of it in the Attack of the Clones script.

As for ranking different holocrons, I don't have a list of them all, but logically, holocrons constructed by Sith Lords who had studied other holocrons would contain more information than ones that were created by Sith who had gained knowledge in a bubble. So for example, Darth Bane's Holocron, into which he was noted to have stored all his knowledge, would be better than those of Darth Revan, Freedon Nadd, Belia Darzu, Sorzus Syn, and Darth Andeddu, as he had studied the creations of all of the aforementioned Sith Lords before completing the construction of his own holocron (save for Andeddu's, but Bane made the note that it contained nothing Bane didn't already know sans essence transfer, and that he had far surpassed "the understanding of simple men like Andeddu"). By the same principle, Exar Kun's Holocron would also be better than Freedon Nadd's, which in turn would be better than the one made by Naga Sadow, and so on.

Then there are special holocrons like Tenebrae's Holocron, which was not intended as much to be a holocron as a device for capturing and imprisoning the spirits of Force-users. It was never noted to have contained any special information, however, other than what the spirit of Lord Dramath could theoretically impart. Darth Rivan and Darth Andeddu's Holocron also had sentient gatekeepers.

[hideedit]


Last edited by Azronger on November 8th 2019, 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 8th 2019, 8:13 am
exactly, thanks man ^^^^ perfect description
caffeineandshiny
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 9th 2019, 2:02 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd

Sorry for the long delay, I wanted to get a few books out for this response and I didn't have time yesterday.

i was talking about skill and control while around ESB, in which yes, he was shitty when compared to dooku and revan, that much is obvious.
I reiterate...why even bring Luke up? And again, Yoda hadn't even trained him enough for Luke to be considered a knight. Much less taught him all he knew. And this is someone who is said to rival the chosen one in potential. Luke's performance in ESB, if anything, demonstrates just how much he overestimated his own abilities (I'll get back to this concept later).

And of course, he is shitty in control compared to trained Jedi. He only had a couple of years of training. That's kinda the point, he no where near got close to what Yoda had to offer.


honestly, pre nathema, vitiate had almost nothing going for him lol idk much about his pre nathema self, but aside from stronger than of the dark council members, thats about it lol
Yes... and no. It is true that little is known about pre Nathema Vitiate. However, the Dark Council wasn't even formed until post Nathema, although I would agree that it is a good assumption that he was stronger than all of them pre Nathema too, seeing as he mentally dominated 8,000 Sith Lords (at least to the point that they didn't know what they were signing up for). However, I've seen it said that he enslaved them in groups rather than all at the same time. And once enslaved it is highly implied that Vitiate did not need to exert any conscious effort to keep people that way (although I feel like that is a feat in itself, that the domination was so total).

u seem to have this knowledge that it took dooku his whole jedi career to learn what he learned, which is not true whatsoever. is it possible? of course it is. is it likely? not at all when we have him master everything basic, and more, about the dark side in only 5 years (idk if i said this, but it might be from the thrawn series). 
He was learning throughout his entire life, it wasn't like he stopped. Further proof of this is that Dooku, even in his older years, refused to remain at the Temple. Instead he preferred field work where he could hunt down artifacts and actively practice. So yes, he did take his entire life to learn the things that he was actively learning throughout his entire life. Could he have done it in less time? Perhaps, if he rushed it. But was there ever a point in Dooku's life where he stopped actively using his skills, and seeking knowledge? No.

bane knew things that revan also didnt know, which is something one should take into account.
Yes, and Revan learned many, many things after he made his holocron that never got recorded. Even just during his time as Darth Revan, seeing as the his holocron left his possession BEFORE he and Malak even arrived on the Star Forge for the first time. So honestly, I've been kinda lowballing the rate at which Darth Revan accumulated Sith knowledge: he managed to accumulate more knowledge than the entirety of the Sith academy, as well as learn and develop techniques that were considered near suicidal to attempt for anyone but the strongest of Sith lords, within his FIRST YEAR AS A SITH LORD. 

That's not even getting into the things that he gained access to after losing his memories, such as the holocron of Tulak Hord. And as WalkinginCircles pointed out many techniques demonstrated by old Republic Sith were "lost to time". In fact, if the KOTOR developers are to be believed the Ancient Sith (6,000 years BBY) knew things that would make even Sith like Darth Traya look like a "child with a toy" in comparison. (And I would more than say that Traya was in Dooku's category when it came to Force ability, probably a touch higher, albeit not stronger overall)

when the guy has such advanced precog? 
Well thank you for bringing that up, I was actually going to get to that lol. Revan's precog was beyond simple Force precog, combining Echani and Force precog to become unmatched when it came out out thinking and out preparing opponents. Precog most definitely would help to close the gap between Revan and Dooku's lightsaber ability, which is maybe a tier to begin with. That's the thing a lot of people forget. Revan didn't care what people thought about him: he just wanted to win. By any means necessary. Dooku considered himself above "tricks" (like Trakata) and even looked down on other saber forms. That's part of what drove him to Makashi in the first place (Which once again demonstrates that Dooku was a power hungry elitist).
 whether or not bane used said powers he found out from revan's holocron, he clearly knew them, and he put them all, revan's and his own, into his holocron.
Once again, Bane had access to what Revan learned in a year lol. Not what Revan Reborn knew. Not even close. And, as someone recently pointed out to me: holocrons only give their users what they think they can handle. There aren't a book. So just because someone had access to something, doesn't mean a) that they learned all of it and b) that the holocron even determined them worthy of knowing all of it.

And as I've already demonstrated there are incredibly important holocrons that did not make it into the Banite repository. Their knowledge was "lost to time".

But once again I'll say this: knowledge is useless without the power to back it up. Skill can counter raw power, to a point. But it is no substitute for raw power. Much less raw power AND skill.

Dooku had the power to back up a lot of what he learned. But Revan had more.

and u can kinda understand why i think dooku> force powers in quantity. this is not about quality. i know revan has better stuff. im just talking about quantity.
AND I'll again reiterate: you keep pointing out how Dooku had access to greater knowledge and yet from everything we have seen he demonstrated far less variety in force powers. Not to mention quality (which I appreciate you admitting).

Which means either 1 of 3 things:
1) He didn't learn as fast as Revan did
2) He couldn't use a lot of the powers
3) The holocrons decided he was at the limit of what he could handle

And, as the case is many times, I think the truth falls somewhere in the middle.

So while your assessment that Dooku had ACCESS to more knowledge holds true, stating that he KNEW more does not. You can't actually demonstrate a single ability that Dooku had that Revan didn't. And as I said before, the reverse is more than true.

Again, considering all that we should really be holding Dooku accountable for how his knowledge (and power) stack up against SoR Revan, who as you yourself admit has more "hacks" than Plagueis. (And again, SoR Revan wasn't even what he would have been capable of whole, much less what he could have grown into)

As it is, he knows less than Revan Reborn (who I will continue to use as my example). 

Please provide something that Dooku has done, or is stated to be capable of, rather than asserting that just because someone has access to something, that means that they know it (or can even do it). You have access to how to build an airplane, available to you for free on the Internet. I guess that means you can make one? Or heck, you love Star Wars right? Do you know everything there is to know about it? I'm sure there are people who know more than you and me combined who don't even have an internet connection (aka, less access to knowledge).

Let me take you on a journey. WAYYYYY back to KOTOR 1, when Revan was just a wee thing with no memories. While freeing prisoners on the Star Forge, he demonstrated a force power called 'Ionize'. Ever heard of it? Its truly a superb little power that enables someone to knock out electronic systems, droids, and (you guessed it) security doors. You'd think that such an easy to learn power would more than be in the repertoire of someone like Dooku right? After all, Luke Skywalker is a master of it, so its not like it disappeared from history right? Oh....Dooku got captured by pirates and had to try to float a security card to open the door? That IS unfortunate, took him way longer with more concentration to escape.

Revan didn't just concentrate on the big "quality" stuff. He learned everything "faster than he could be taught" (Kreia). The number of things that Revan demonstrated (PRE SWOR) is far greater than the number of things that Dooku demonstrated, even in the microcosm. 

Again, this is the guy that, out of everything in the Telos holocron, decided that Sith lightning was as good as it got.

u completely ignored my point of dooku consistently giving yoda a good fight(ish) and the fact that he only grew stronger after that. i see no reason why revan reborn would be above dooku, when dooku himself has fought some who matched sheev, who is stronger than valk. im not saying dooku= yoda, i know he is weaker, but thats honestly a better feat than fighting pre prime vitiate.
Okay...time to clear up some misconceptions. This is, of course, in the context of the EU so it takes all information into account.

First off, I would honestly say that Valkorion is on RotJ Sidious' level in raw force power. Not DE Sidious. But considering things like Ziost...Yeah definitely RotJ Sidious. And not in sabers (cause damn that guy needs to practice). And I would say that Vitiate, on the Dromund Kaas nexus, is in the same range as RotS Sidious and Yoda (off the nexus I'd put him slightly lower, but that is irrelevant). And he would lose to them, because without a force advantage he would be at the mercy of their sabers, but since I'm going to be talking about Force power that is also irrelevant. Plus, you are severely underestimating how he sucked an entire planet dry of the Force. Yeah it took prep but that energy was at his disposal afterwards to do with what he wanted (in addition to rendering him immortal).

Secondly, Revan Reborn all but mitigated Vitiate's full power that had LETHAL intent and quickly recovered from the rest enough to continue fighting. And he did this after having been kept in captivity for 3 years (where he was kept so drugged that even standing up was hard, even when he wasn't being tortured, so he basically didn't move the entire time). This is utterly incomparable to anything Dooku has done with raw force power. Much less if Dooku had been in the same weakened state. And what Vitiate used was described as a "swirling storm of pure darkside energy", which isn't even really Force lightning. The difference between it and Sith lightning being several orders of magnitude even for practitioners NOT as strong as Vitiate.

Vitiate's dark side storm was so powerful that Revan didn't even THINK about using his saber to deflect it (despite having been using his saber to help up until that point). In addition to this, when Revan reflected a small lightning bolt with his lightsaber back at Vitiate, it was so powerful that it actually went past Vitiate's shields (although it didn't truly hurt him).

Dooku did not even coming close to matching Yoda. The first time he tried lightning, Yoda struggled. A bit. When he had never (probably or presumably) even SEEN Sith lightning in action before outside of the documentation of it in of the Great Holocron. This was, for all intent and purposes, Yoda's first performance (or damn near close). This is further proven because when Dooku then tried again, with even more power behind it, Yoda became "even more settled into his stance" (AotC novelization) deflecting it easier and easier the longer Dooku tried. In spite of Dooku increasing the power. In other words, the first time was because Yoda wasn't expecting it. It had nothing to do with the power behind it. After all, don't forget this:
https://i.stack.imgur.com/yfqcj.gif

Yoda doesn't exactly perform well against Sith lightning when he is surprised. Also, he was perfectly fine after this. If Sidious couldn't significantly hurt him with a surprise burst, how can you really compare Dooku's surprise burst when he didn't even manage to do anything against Yoda who (again) had no reason to have faced Sith lightning before?

Yoda then doesn't even try to fight back with the Force. It is not his way (and this further emphasizes just how serious he was in the Sidious fight, that he would disregard this somewhat).

Also consider that Sidious (who is canonically Yoda's equal in force power at this point), ragdolled Dooku. Via hologram.
How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Main-qimg-e072847719e4d61e2b9f97c36752f580

Yoda could have dominated Dooku too. But "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack".

And by ragdoll I mean that both Sidious and Yoda could have easily killed Dooku with the Force. Vs Revan who survived two attempts by Vitiate to kill him with the Force, once with TK and once with Force Storm, on top of an attempt to dominate him mentally (again, while he was weakened). Yeah, Vitiate was stronger than Revan. But Dooku wouldn't have even gotten past the mental domination part (as shown by his utter failure against Mother Talzin fully possessing him).

Dooku's surprise attack barely phased Yoda. Revan unleashed an attack on Vitiate that was so fast that it not only negated a mental attack but it sent him flying to land in a "heep". This is after brushing off a TK attack that Vitiate spent the time it took Revan to cross the entire length of the throne room charging.

Dooku doesn't exactly use impressive lightning (when comparing him to top tier Sith who have feats). Even AotC Obi Wan had no issues with it, and several mid tier people have proven to be able to survive it even when he is serious. (Such as it barely slowing Savage Opress down when he and Ventress tried to kill Dooku, and Dooku is very much trying to kill them back (as evidenced by him telling Savage to kill Ventress immediately prior). Savage just tanks it, several times, with very little Force training).

So moving on to the part where he actually WAS impressive and didn't just try to save face after he realized he had no hope of beating Yoda in the Force.

As I've said since the beginning, I do believe Dooku would win majority in a sabers only match against Revan Reborn.

But his fight with Yoda, while extraordinary, is not as impressive as it may seem.

First of all, remember how Yoda was Dooku's master? The primary person that he sparred for years upon years? Do you know how much easier it is to fight someone you have fought hundreds of times before? Whose moves you know, and habits you know? Yeah Yoda knew Dooku's moves too (from when Dooku was a youth anyway) but Yoda had peaked long ago: after 900 years and having to use the Force just to be able to move in combat, how much is he really going to change when it comes to fighting? Dooku, on the other hand, had changed greatly by training with Sidious and throughout his years in the field. And he still was utterly dominated (but I'll get back to that in a minute).

Secondly, Makashi is naturally strong against Ataru. Put two people of identical skill level together and the Makashi user will win 9/10. The fact that Yoda was using a form that Makashi is strong against, and was still above Dooku to the point there was no shred doubt who would win, speaks volumes.

Thirdly, Dooku focused specifically on combating Ataru users (likely because he wanted to beat Yoda). He trained more against Ataru than any other form. He even developed skills specifically designed to work against Ataru users (which he worked on during his time training Qui Gon, which goes back to my point about students helping teachers to grow, especially when the teacher is young/middle aged). One move that was specifically mentioned was that he would focus on getting people to flip overhead by concentrating on their feet. And Yoda never hesitated to do acrobatics, yet even with him doing something that should have given Dooku an even further advantage, Dooku just couldn't keep up.

Fourthly, Yoda wasn't serious. What I mean by that is he wasn't going all out, he was only using what was necessary to STOP Dooku. Not kill him or even maim him. He very much wanted Dooku to surrender and come back to the light. In the EU, this is even more true because it is shown several times that Yoda didn't pursue Dooku whenever Dooku backed off. He simply stayed between Dooku and his ship.

Finally, Yoda was extremely impressive for another reason: without going all out, he overwhelmed a Makashi user who had trained for YEARS to defeat Ataru users, not by exploiting Makashi's weaknesses but by directly beating Dooku in areas that Makashi is strong in. Makashi users' primary strength is their foot work, and yet Dooku was set off balance the entire fight, desperately losing ground. He simply couldn't find his center, despite that being what Makashi is based around. He couldn't keep up with Yoda's speed, even while Yoda was in the air. And lastly, the junior novelization (which is EU) has Yoda actually disarm Dooku. Makashi's primary purpose is to prevent one from losing their lightsaber (or saber hand) while trying to do the same back to your opponent.

And while yes, the disarming didn't happen in all versions, we also have Savage Opress disarming Dooku and slammed him into a wall. Although this was done through exploiting a weakness of Makashi: brute strength.

Dooku, while he has worked to overcome the weaknesses of Makashi and has done so with great success, is still vulnerable to Makashi's weakness even when faced with an inferior opponent.

Dooku also has the advantage of most people not being able to combat Makashi. It is an archaic form that has had several thousand year gaps in its use.

Which brings me back to the Old Republic, where duels raged and Makashi was seen everywhere.

Dooku would not have the advantage against Revan that he did against Obi Wan. While Dooku is still the superior saber user, Revan is not only has access to techniques like Echani and Trakata, but has also fought presumably against hundreds of Makashi users (especially when facing Dark Jedi, who were known for their favoring of the form). And while I doubt he came across one as skilled as Dooku, that is a lot of exposure to the form and all the different "personal" touches someone can vary it with. That's not even getting into the fact that Revan's first master, Kreia, was a Makashi master.

And yet, have you ever wondered why when Jedi were regularly combating Sith and other force users, and Makashi is the best in 1 on 1 combat, the two best warriors of the Old Republic (Exar Kun and Revan) were Niman users? (And even later Sith lords like Darth Krayat?)

Its largely because what they were using wasn't really Niman, at least not what Niman was by the time of the Clone Wars. It was more them actually mastering all the forms (rather than mastering a single, watered down version of all forms) and then switching between as needed. This combined with their unpredictability, master level strategy, and battle precog made it easy for them to trick opponents into over extending, while never leaving themselves open because of their ability to call on any form to cover their weak spots. This coupled with their force abilities (and no I'm not just talking about things like force push and force enhancement, I'm talking about them tossing huge objects around mentally all the while maintaining a duel) made them far more deadly in the long run.

And huge objects flying around is very similar to having multiple brute force opponents all trying to hammer you while you still have to deal with the Niman user.

All things considered I'd give Dooku a 7/10 sabers only fight (that would be higher if it were just skill alone, but Revan's mastery of deceitful techniques, unpredictability, highly advanced battle precog, and having no clear weaknesses nudges it in his favor).

But Dooku would lose all out. Not stomp in any sense of the word. But lose. He just doesn't have the Force power.

i didnt actually change my mind on that, but i did take ur point to heart. its not like yoda didnt teach him shit after all lol
And yet you say that Azronger's post is a perfect description, when a large part of it is demonstrating just how valuable a resource Palpatine was to Dooku (and in fact any highly skilled teacher would be). Which is what I was saying, that having Yoda and Palpatine as a resource makes it so Dooku should be be held accountable to how he stacks up, knowledge and power wise, to SoR Revan. Not Revan Reborn, who Dooku is much closer to.


the word they use is gifted. as in, gifted in the force. he, by that point, had equal to, or greater potential in the force than the people i mentioned. it also says better learned in the force, which included yoda btw. this is consistent with him and yoda being equals, as far as force goes, aside form power of course, as stated in AOTC.
This is not at all provable, and actually demonstrably false, as I showed already Dooku is not even close to the Force power tier of Sidious and Yoda. The only thing that keeps him in his current rank is sabers. It is also false because not only did Dooku train his entire life, he actually went PAST his peak potential and started regressing, at least according to Yoda in 20 BBY. Source- Yoda Uncovered, Star Wars Comic 8.

I love how you went from "Dooku could have been another Revan if ONLY he had more knowledge" to "Dooku was equal to Yoda in the Force and knew more than Revan". Those two things are not at all consistent.

yoda never does show much of his power, but then again, neither does sidious, so i digress.
Oh you mean Sidious never showed how he instantly held Savage Opress and Darth Maul in a force grip so strong that they were slammed back into a wall and pinned there so effectively that neither could escape, only to let them down so that he could utterly dominate them both in sabers, just for fun? The SAME Savage Opress who managed to overpower Dooku at times when he was barely at all into his training? The SAME Savage who was shown to be stronger than Dooku even while not amped, yet was easily matched in pure strength by Sidious (while anger amped no less), and after had he way more training?

sheev was stronger than dooku, but he never showed anything other than strangling him while dooku was completely unsuspecting
Dooku wasn't unsuspecting. And it was from halfway across the galaxy. And it was done casually. And Sidious was shown to overwhelm Mother Talzin, on her home turf, who in turn utterly overwhelmed Dooku in the Force (first sucking him dry like a grape then proceeding to wear him around like a meatbag).

And I suppose Dooku was just fine handling Savage unleashed...*sees Dooku tossed around the room, having to temporarily combine powers with Ventress just to stop him*

while valk one shotted, whats his name, sith lord in a full body armor/suit. marr, i think. thats a better feat overall, but doesnt make him stronger than sheev, nor does it make him stronger than yoda.
....
....
ARE YOU SERIOUS? THAT is the best feat you can come up with for Valkorion? And no, I'm not saying that Valkorion is stronger in the Force than Palpatine. As of RotJ, I'd put them as peers (and before you go "Palpatine is the strongest Sith" Valkorion is not a Sith and is actively fighting against them at this point). Yoda...yeah honestly I'd have to say that there is only so much raw skill that Yoda can use to overcome power like that. On the other hand, as I've said before Yoda wins sabers against all but a few people.
those quotes can depends on such things of course. im not saying they dont. but i could say something similar about revan- u really think his 'unlimited potential' quote isnt flowery lingo?
That's my point. Hype quotes needed to be examined with context, who is saying it, etc. Which is why I prefer not to use them except to supplement (even with Revan having enough to rival Luke Skywalker if all were taken as true, which is obviously not the case). This goes doubly so for hype quotes that the character is thinking about themselves. It is an opinion, and usually when a character is thinking about themselves like that it is more an indicator of their ego than anything else. There is even a phrase for it. "Tooting your own horn".

yeah, the amp isnt from their masters, its actually bane's own power lol i remember when i first learned about that, i was like, dafuck?? 
Where are you getting this from? Bane was only passing on knowledge, and even then its ineffective a lot of the time with students getting over zealous and killing their master through trickery (see ego statement above).

Although an interesting Bane tid bit is that, at least according to Drew Karpyshan, Bane wasn't interested in taking over the galaxy. Basically Bane's opinion was that with ultimate power what went on in the outside world didn't matter. It only mattered how strong you could get.

and yeah, sheev was a complete monster when compared to the banite sith. the guy had like, 10 years or so into his training, and was reaching plagueis lvl power. thats some anakin lvl shit lol
Palpatine had trained under Plagueis for 35 years (age 15 to 50), and even then he was only getting into "comparable" territory.


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 9th 2019, 1:10 pm; edited 7 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar errors)
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 9th 2019, 2:20 am
Azronger wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
Azronger wrote:@caffeineandshiny Welcome to the forum.

To answer your question, The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology states the Dark Holocron is the most powerful Sith holocron. However, the statement is a bit problematic since the Dark Holocron was destroyed by Exar Kun, yet Dooku is noted to have somehow studied it. The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection does implicitly fix this plothole, though, by stating Dooku studied "a Dark Holocron" rather than "the" Dark Holocron, implying that there are multiple ones. But this then complicates the matter of what Sith holocron is the most powerful considerably.

Thank you! And thank you for your comprehensive response!

I have always wondered about Dooku possessing that and it always seemed "off" to me. Now you have provided a way that I don't have to reconcile Dooku having the Dark Holocron with the problems I see.

Number 1 of those problems is that Dooku seemed "weak" for what he should have been by having THE most powerful holocron. Now I know that having something doesn't mean you know everything it has to offer (and holocrons are notorious for withholding information correct?) but it seems to me that Dooku's power should have increased much more after he went to the darkside. Vs its seemed like (to me) his increase in power was less than a tier from when he was light.

And number 2, the bigger issue is that I don't see Palpatine allowing Dooku to keep a holocron that is "better" than the Telos holocron. Of course that is assuming he found out, which is no guarentee.

How would you rate the various named (sith) holocrons? If hype were to be believed 100%. Or is it impossible to say even taking hype into account?

Actually, Darth Plagueis told Sidious during his training that "real knowledge" was passed down from Master to apprentice in lessons that weren't recorded, and regarded holocrons as "spurious sources" that should only be studied after one has perfected their power in their own way. In accordance with this, despite having studied a Dark Holocron and being among the most learned Jedi Masters of the time, the training under Sidious "introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies" according to the Revenge of the Sith novelization, and Dooku noted he had gained "infinitely greater power" as a result of it in the Attack of the Clones script.

As for ranking different holocrons, I don't have a list of them all, but logically, holocrons constructed by Sith Lords who had studied other holocrons would contain more information than ones that were created by Sith who had gained knowledge in a bubble. So for example, Darth Bane's Holocron, into which he was noted to have stored all his knowledge, would be better than those of Darth Revan, Freedon Nadd, Belia Darzu, Sorzus Syn, and Darth Andeddu, as he had studied the creations of all of the aforementioned Sith Lords before completing the construction of his own holocron (save for Andeddu's, but Bane made the note that it contained nothing Bane didn't already know sans essence transfer, and that he had far surpassed "the understanding of simple men like Andeddu"). By the same principle, Exar Kun's Holocron would also be better than Freedon Nadd's, which in turn would be better than the one made by Naga Sadow, and so on.

Then there are special holocrons like Tenebrae's Holocron, which was not intended as much to be a holocron as a device for capturing and imprisoning the spirits of Force-users. It was never noted to have contained any special information, however, other than what the spirit of Lord Dramath could theoretically impart. Darth Rivan and Darth Andeddu's Holocron also had sentient gatekeepers.

[hideedit]
That is very much in line with the idea that part of the rule of 2 was that the student HAD to learn from the master, and so couldn't immediately discard them. The master is power and the student craves that power. What I was referring to wasn't that Sidious himself wasn't the most important resource, but that the Dark Holocron is noted for containing things that even the Telos didn't have.

I was mostly curious because of the whole idea that the ancient Sith lords had power immeasurably greater than that of contemporary ones. It kinda made a sort of circular logic for me: that techniques get rediscovered and then forgotten again, information comes and goes. That there is only so much up you can go before the whole cycle starts over.

I honestly always placed those in a different category as well, but as this is mostly a knowledge gathering exercise I appreciate you mentioning them.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 9th 2019, 2:57 am
@Quorian Debatist wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Dark Holocron for knowledge.

Darth Rivan's Holocron for an amp since the Gatekeeper became sentient and could amp people.
Thank you for your input!

Would you rate Darth Rivan's holocron higher than the Malachor Sith holocron, being that it was also sentient and could amp?

This will be a little speculatory so bear with me.

The backstory, and it also seems to be the biggest source of the Darkside now in the Academy:

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen55


It amps Draco significantly:
How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen54


It seems to be its own Nexus:
How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen53


Backed up by it hindering the heroes and powering up Draco in his vicinity.

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen59


How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen60


It allows Draco to seemingly create Dreambeasts with ambient or possibly internal darkside energy that are semi tangible and can cause damage in the real world.

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen57


How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen56



Then it allows Draco, or "Darth Rivan" to control a 200m Dragon that can nigh-instantly slag the building they're in.
How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Screen58


Also if Draco gets hit by Sever Force it just seems to cut off his amp as well, but anyway, nothing too major. Just seems intentioned to be pretty potent. You also need to use "a destiny point" along with Sever Force to destroy the Holocron as well if that means anything as Sever Force on its own only temporarily disables it.

If however the Holocron became the biggest concentration of Darkside energy on the planet, then that has some pretty nasty implications seeing as Almas was pretty deeply steeped in the Darkside.

So, again, nothing too great in way of feats, but it seems pretty powerful. Be curious to see to see what other Holocrons have in way of feats though. I know Ferus had one that amped him to above 18BBY Vader level and he wasn't sure if the Jedi Temple generator could destroy it.

I greatly appreciate all the screenshots you compiled! That was a very good read!

Ah Ferus Olin. I really wish he had had more done with his character, it would be honestly more interesting (to me) than at least a few of the directions that Disney has gone. It was quite interesting for me, the idea of Anakin having a rival growing up. Especially one to survive Order 66 (even if he would no longer really be considered a rival lol).

Honestly it is strange to me how some of the games basically use holocrons as though they give specific, temporary powers (such as in the Force Unleashed) rather than exploring the idea of it containing the wisdom of past generations more, or even just containing raw force power. I don't mind so much in the case of the holocron you are talking about, since it seems to behave more like a force nexus (as you said) rather than a "use this one to gain x power" or "use this other one to gain Y power".

My initial post wasn't really to determine "the best", as from the way I see it that is turning out to be quite subjective, but rather to see how different people value different aspects of a holocron (as well as to see how the more well known ones stack up against the ones only mentioned here and there). In terms of feats the one I mentioned was quite powerful (being able to wipe out life on a planetary scale I believe) but certainly not the only impressive one.
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on November 9th 2019, 7:24 am
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
Honestly it is strange to me how some of the games basically use holocrons as though they give specific, temporary powers (such as in the Force Unleashed) rather than exploring the idea of it containing the wisdom of past generations more, or even just containing raw force power.

I agree. Back in the early days of the EU, holocrons were extremely valued and coveted, almost like these holy relics you often find in fantasy stories. Even Palpatine was very possessive of a merely a single holocron in Dark Empire, to a degree that is retroactively uncharacteristic of him when in light of later sources we know that he was the owner of the collective knowledge bases of the Sith and the Jedi alike, and far lesser Sith Lords have had access to a great wealth of holocrons. It sort of demystifies the whole idea of these legendary repositories of untold wisdom and arcana.
caffeineandshiny
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on November 9th 2019, 3:06 pm
Azronger wrote:
@caffeineandshiny wrote:
Honestly it is strange to me how some of the games basically use holocrons as though they give specific, temporary powers (such as in the Force Unleashed) rather than exploring the idea of it containing the wisdom of past generations more, or even just containing raw force power.

I agree. Back in the early days of the EU, holocrons were extremely valued and coveted, almost like these holy relics you often find in fantasy stories. Even Palpatine was very possessive of a merely a single holocron in Dark Empire, to a degree that is retroactively uncharacteristic of him when in light of later sources we know that he was the owner of the collective knowledge bases of the Sith and the Jedi alike, and far lesser Sith Lords have had access to a great wealth of holocrons. It sort of demystifies the whole idea of these legendary repositories of untold wisdom and arcana.
I completely agree. That's not even getting into the fact that, to my knowledge, it used to be a big deal to have the ability to even create a holocron. It gave it that sort of "arcane" feel that you talk about, that to even have been able to make one gives weight to the contents before the information within is even revealed.

I also always loved the idea of even Sidious having that one prized possession. That one thing that he actually placed value on outside of his own power. As well as the idea that even he considered it his duty to add to the repository of knowledge for the sake of future Sith generations.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 9th 2019, 5:40 pm
sheesh long ass comment lol and no problem, i learned some shit from it too, so its all good.

the luke point is to argue that someone who had only used the force once or twice before could learn so much so quickly. its just showing that simply because dooku was older, doesnt mean he took that long to learn all that he did learn.

... thats prolly ur dumbest point man. how could he have learned things that he didnt know existed? could revan have learned what he knew at the end of his life, much faster if it was all in front of him? of course. same with dooku lol and i never said he didnt seek knowledge and power. i just said that he was no revan, who would do almost nothing but look for a new master whenever he had the chance to do so lol and him looking for new, unfound info supports my point of him being yoda lvl in quantity of powers, since that would mean that he, even as a jedi, knew shit other jedi, including yoda, didnt. reminds u of revan doesnt it?

bane is part of the old republic, in case u didnt know lol i know he didnt learn everything, but he did learn from better sources, i believe. he did get stuff from nadd, revan (that one year u talked about), the holocron chick, and somehow, by the time of DOE, i think, he learned enough that what andeddu had was pretty much trash to him, aside from transfer essence, but wyyrlok considered his info pretty valuable. this supports ur point of lost knowledge, of course. i know that there is a gap. but what bane, plagueis, tenebrous, and all sith after gean learned, dooku had the opportunity to learn. and revan's case, the abilities that are good, at least, teleportation for example, idk where he learned them from. for one, sheev knew how to, but the rest of the banites didnt. its a lot like shatterpoint- either u have it, or u dont. not even yoda had shatterpoint lol so now u gonna say that mace knew more than he did cuz he never used shatter point before? thats a dumb argument. traya is talking about dueling skill, and her claim is baseless, otherwise, the best of the best jedi would be fodder to any well trained sith from back then, which is ludicrous. not to mention her bias towards tulak. the guy was undefeated cuz there was no one as good or strong as him. idk how many years later, marka ragnos pops up and is confirmed to the best duelist and most powerful sith ever at that time, but he isnt mentioned once by her, nor is exar kun. as far as a traya/dooku comparison. she surely knows stuff that he doesnt. but then again, he knows what is inside andeddu's holocron, which is full of shit that she has, and has never seen. and bane's holocron is even worse. while she might have teleport (maybe, iirc, but oh well lol), shatter point, and what not, while having years of intense and knowledge, what she had at her disposal is not nearly close to what he had. ur argument consists of "he hasnt shown it, hence he doesnt have it" but u completely disregard what he does have that older sith do not, not to mention that that is incredibly faulty logic and reasoning. show me a sith using a dark ability made to kill that could be used so skillfully, that he can bring someone back to life? or like i said, a sith that finished his training in 5 years, while having to learn much more than other sith had to? thats quite impressive, but he is the only one shown doing that. show me a sith aside from like, vader and revan, who could perfectly use his sith and jedi abilities with no trouble whatsoever? by trouble, i mean, having to think about it, unlike dooku, who used it whenever he felt like it, and never had to use his rage, nor his calm to use either of them. not even, who was it, gravid, i think, could do so. that shows mastery of both powers above, almost quite literally, 90% of the characters in the verse. traya is INCREDIBLY skilled. she is more skilled than revan imo, and has even better application than him, which puts her a above dooku as well, but that means nothing as far as abilities go, since 19 BBY vader could do some of the shit that she could with no problem whatsoever lol

and thanks back at u lol, u brought up my other point hahaha, "coincidence?? i think not!". dooku was above tricks, like u said (thanks again kek), which included complicated and useful sith alchemy and magik and and spells and shit like that, meaning that, at least in dooku's own mind, he knew much better, useful, and effective force powers, from both the jedi and the sith. this also applies to revan, but unlike dooku, revan is a protagonist who was made to be the opposite of the second or third or fourth strongest sith ever shown in the mythos, a guy who could supposedly stop time, is immortal, semi all knowing, pretty much stronger than his while armies put together, who knew and had been amassing info for like, idk how many thousands (2 or so, i think) of years, who had been unbeaten for the same amount of time, etc etc etc. see what i mean? he obviously was made to be a 'wank' character, just like luke is. for one, vader is confirmed, as in, he did so in fact, learn all that he could the best holocrons the jedi and sith had as a means of bringing back padme, and did so for 20 years, and never found shit. he practically looked all over for this info, meaning that the amount of shit he studied might even surpass plagueis. has he ever shown anything that useful or cool or hax? never lol dooku has shown better powers than him, and he had less time to do so, while not even close to how much vader rushed when doing so, in even less showings, as in, vader appears much more than he does, but dooku still shows better powers lol

i tihnk that holocrons let out the info if they want to do so, more like. remember krayt when talking to bane, andeddu, and nihilus? yeah, they hated his ass, and didnt tell him shit lol thats how i think it works, almost. u ask it something, and it tells u what it can, ish. as for that, power doenst have much to do with it, unless the technique in question is like, force storm lvl. its almost always skill based. set harth, i think his name is, learned everything he could from andeddu's holocron, or so i hear, including transfer essence, which was his best and most complicated technique in it. see what i mean?

the one good thing u mentioned here is that maybe dooku just couldnt perform some of them. this is 100% possible, after all, we have seen this happen before. i doubt this to the case, since i addressed his lack of showings above. yoda also doesnt show of a range as far as powers go. i think his most impressive ones are like, battle meditation, sever force, and force light, and i think that the only one he has actually even demonstrated before is BM, which even some random council members can use, even though its such a high end ability. so its a back and forth here, since, if people that are fodder to dooku and yoda could do it quite easily, why couldnt yoda and dooku also do so? so lack of showings isnt a lack of existence. and a power that dooku has that revan never showed? the one above, using a killing technique technique so well that he could bring grevious back to life with it. he was even impressed with himself, when using it like so, cuz, i think but may be wrong here, he was the first person to ever do so, or something like that. or him using a jedi technique to cure himself from a certain death poison, in like, 5 seconds maybe? him thinking some sith spells are trash is another good showing, which means they are beneath what he knows. what else does he have that revan doesnt? um. he does have an accolade that says that his skill with the force is near unrivaled and is alarmingly good, even as a jedi, which puts him in the yoda/sheev/plagueis/talzing league 12.5 pre prime. him using TK casually when he was 7 is pretty damn good. oh, he sensed the whole galaxy or something, in the ROTS novel. i might need to check that one for specifics tho, cuz im not sure. i havent seen revan use drain knowledge, but he likely has it, so meh lol, there is him washing away his fatigue in like, 10 seconds, and could fight almost indefinitely by using the dark side (obvious flowry lingo, but still somewhat good), in ROTS. revan has brought himself back from the dead, so thats pretty meh compared to him, but then again, so has sion, so idk. thats about it, as far as skill and powers go lol, like i said he, is isnt a protagonist hahaha and obi wan knows ionize, and he used it, i think, once to escape, evne though he had it for a good bit before ROTS lol and revan is the guy who was made to fight vititate. what did u expect? he has better showings that ROTS sidious, who btw is the strongest dark sider ever by that point, so yeah, he is above valkorion, sith or not. 
Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides. The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
so yeah man.

ill counter what i can here lol:
i do know that revan was tired, i never said he wasnt vitiate's equal when at full power.
yoda says very often that he doesnt want to kill dooku. this is talking about his efforts to make dooku quit on his ways, and that yoda still doesnt want to fight him. BUT he has tried to kill dooku before, when the need arose. he tried doing so against dooku in both D.R. and AOTC, even more in D.R. but thats cuz dooku was amped and, u know, an actual threat to his life lol doesnt mean, like u said, that yoda was at full power, but he was always serious. like u said, they knew each other, and even after all that, with yoda being older, more experienced, better dueslist, smaller target, etc, he still couldnt insta beat dooku. this is a pretty incredible feat for dooku. u might not see the same scaling chain that i do, so ill try to show u how i see this. it might be a bit long, but ill try to shorten it lol sorry: 

Part 1= ROTS sheev (equal to, or stronger than valk)> Yoda> dooku. 
Part 2= ROTS sheev> post amp TPM sheev (ill address the amp thing later, btw, so just bear with me for now lol)> plagueis>= vitiate>=revan.
Part 3= jedi dooku being 'trouble' for plagueis and sheev, and being a possible sheev replacement if anything were to ever happen.

thats how i kinda put dooku close to revan. i obviously dont know how big the gaps in power are, so this could be quite faulty, but its what i choose to go by for now. another thing i dont like is u using inconsistent low showings here. for example, has casually disarmed savage before. so him doing so to dooku is about as inconsistent as it gets. even worse when u have quotes saying that dooku= yoda in physical strength, and yoda= sheev in this sense as well. and idk what ur comment about forms is for, since dooku did learn all forms. his best was by far makashi, and just what he like the most, but he did know all of them, well enough, for example, to defend himself from yoda's attacks when using soresu, while being the person who taugh qui gon ataru, who equaled maul in skill, so his ataru skill might be maul lvl in skill. he is by no means one trick pony. as for niman, dooku, how do i say, doenst need it? niman is an inbetween form, nothing good, but nothing bad, i think. dooku, by mastering makashi, and the rest, has almost no problems, unless the duelist is, smply put, yoda lvl in speed, skill, and power. he CAN use the force inbetween fights, btw. he hasnt anything good for it, but he can, and even has a statement about it lol and yeah, i get it, if force comes into play, the fight can take huge turns. take yoda and sheev's duel- sheev wasnt stronger than him at all, and was actually slower and likely less skilled and less experienced by a mega ton lol, but his skill with the force let him compete for a long ass time. now, if it were a no force duel, he mightve stomped yoda, since his stamina is better, he has more reach, is stronger, and wouldnt have a such big diff in speed, while being comparably skilled. this is actually and likely the best example lol hahaha, same applies to revan vs dooku, if it werent for super precog, experience, and wits, i would give it to dooku 10/10. as for all out, i know that dooku loses. the point of all this is to say that anything revan has above him, is not huge, but actually maybe minimal, and at time, nonexisnt, with dooku having his own advantages. a fight between them, at their best, wouldve been prolly, one of the most amazing things to witness man. lol now im hyping myself up hahaha wtf lol

i wasnt talking about his whole post, but just part of it lol chill out my dude.

u said it spoke about only the jedi there and now, but now its false? he factually has yoda lvl potential bro. like, i can post a quote for that. and im not talking about power, im talking about potential only. for one, there is a quote that says that dooku's growth in power was being closely watched by sheev so that he wouldnt become a threat. and dooku counters that statements in the same panel, btw lol. and no, i said that dooku couldve been as powerful as revan if he was as serachy for power like revan was, who was clearly more obsessed with it than dooku, while dooku likely knew just as much, if not more than revan knew about the force, while being around skilled as yoda was with the force, which is supported by MANY sources, to say the least. like, a good 6 or so. NOTHING that revan has shown says that he knew more shit than dooku. nothing at all. like u said, dooku lived for longer, and had the two most knowledgeable masters at the time.


and yeah, i meant that sheev. what good feats does maul have in power that makes that so impressive? and even then, savage was getting completely put down by dooku's 3 second lightning blasts, even while enraged lol he then chocked dooku who was, yet again, not paying attention, and btw, it did nothing to dooku aside from lifting and hurting him, after he fought both savage and ventress. and training has nothing to do with physical power here lol and even then, like i said, dooku matched yoda's strength, so u really telling me that savage can overpower yoda? nah bro.

how was he not unsuspecting of that attack? him not seeing it coming counters all of those 'casually' and 'from across the galaxy' facts lol and i wanna see where this 'having to team up with ventress thing' came from. he didnt have to do shit. we know dooku is more powerful than him in the frist place, smarter, more skilled, more experienced, on a whole other league. he was actually stomping ventress multiple times in the show, even though she could even fight maul for a bit. 'oh maul was rusty and had just gotten his legs back' the guy had been killing other living beings for like, 10 years, just to survive. he wouldve had no problem doing the same thing, but with a better weapon, and when not crazy, not to mention that allowing the force work with allows u to overcome this problem.

that feat was to show that not even sidious had shown that much power, even though he is the strongest dark sider ever. lack of showings doesnt mean lack of power/skill/techniques/etc.

yeah, its bane's power that's passed down, not the master's if u want me to look the quote for it, i can, but doenst mean ill find it lol. and it doesnt matter how the master died, so long as the apprentice killed him. just look at plagueis and sheev.

thanks, i knew it for about 30 something years, but i was just talking about his serious, sith lord training which wouldve happened later in life, and not the basic shit.
caffeineandshiny
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on November 9th 2019, 7:48 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:sheesh long ass comment lol and no problem, i learned some shit from it too, so its all good.
The response is going to be even longer lol. But, part of what determines how long it will be is in regards to this part.
the point of all this is to say that anything revan has above him, is not huge, but actually maybe minimal, and at time, nonexisnt, with dooku having his own advantages.
If you are saying Revan Reborn, I will proceed as I have been. If you are saying SoR Revan, the question isn't whether Revan would win, but how fast.

So which Revan are you referring to?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 9th 2019, 7:57 pm
ive always been confused as to where his prime lies at. for example, its after his novel right? or after he dies and comes back? or right before he dies? idk lol its confusing to me really, but i consider the last two to be his prime
caffeineandshiny
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on November 9th 2019, 9:24 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ive always been confused as to where his prime lies at. for example, its after his novel right? or after he dies and comes back? or right before he dies? idk lol its confusing to me really, but i consider the last two to be his prime
His prime lies no where. He has not a single feat where he wasn't hindered in one way or the other. However, the highest point we see him was SoR Revan.

The last two are one and the same. They are both him in Shadow of Revan.

End of book Revan is Revan Reborn (that is up to the end of the throne room fight, not including the "epilogue").

I am using in my example only Revan Reborn (and all previous versions such as Darth Revan and KOTOR Revan), whom I consider to take Dooku 8.5/10 in an all out fight and 3/10 sabers only (and 10/10 Force only).

I put Dooku below Traya in the Force, who is canonically below Revan Reborn in the Force, but Dooku above RotS Kenobi in sabers (who in turn is slightly above Revan in sabers).

SoR Revan... I really don't want to get into why I think that is a mismatch. Especially considering we have a super fight going on right now between Azronger and DarthAnt66 with Darth Vader vs Revan.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 9th 2019, 9:45 pm
why not use later incarnations?

and if it werent for hax (teleport, better mind focused abilities, drain, etc), i would see dooku winning almost all of them lol thats honestly what makes revan really power. yeah, he is strong, but that only took like, kar vastor for example, so far lol
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on November 9th 2019, 9:53 pm
oh, and u do know that traya is like, hella weak when compared to revan, right?

like, traya< nihilus< darth revan, maybe before< forced into jedism again revan< novel revan< whatever his strongest lol< vitiate, plagueis, etc
caffeineandshiny
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on November 10th 2019, 1:20 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:why not use later incarnations?

and if it werent for hax (teleport, better mind focused abilities, drain, etc), i would see dooku winning almost all of them lol thats honestly what makes revan really power. yeah, he is strong, but that only took like, kar vastor for example, so far lol
It isn't his abilities that give Revan power. It is raw force power, and talent, that allows him to use a lot of his abilities in the first place. Abilities that require an incredible amount of skill and power just to be able to pull off during battle, much less to the level that Revan uses them. Even if someone knows something, it doesn't mean they can use it. And the level they have with it matters just as much as the ability itself: level that cannot be gained through practice alone.

I'm not using later incarnations because as I said it would be a mismatch.

Kar Vastor was considered by Mace to have raw Force power comparable to Yoda lol. With no formal training.

Revan has Dooku outmatched in abilities and overwhelmed in raw power. Especially if you want to bring in SoR. As I said before, Dooku's only chance is sabers.

And yes I am aware that Revan Reborn is well above Kreia. But as I said I was only placing her force power above (but comparable to) Dooku's. Not how she would fair overall (I'd personally give it to Dooku 7.5/10).

I'm not going to respond any more until I get the large response done (which I'm not sure when I'll have time for). Just to stream line the discussion.

But, I do request that you find the sources for 2 things in the meantime. It is because I am not sure where you are getting them from, not because their truthfulness impacts anything. And as always, if I don't provide a source you are welcome to ask where I got it from.

1) The General Grievous feat. I have searched high and low and I can't even find a mention of it. The closest I can find is this:
"Grievous is unaware that the ship crash that led to his cybernetic reconstruction was caused by Dooku. The Count used his powers to keep the unconscious General alive as part of his plan to recruit Grievous to the Separatist cause."

2) Please find the bit about Bane's power passing on to each person? The only thing that has ever happened was that when Palpatine killed Plagueis, it felt to him like the dark side was anointing him. That has nothing to do with Bane.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 10th 2019, 2:40 pm
i suppose u kinda convinced me that dooku isnt as powerful as i thought, but i still dont wanna say he is weaker than novel revan, if we are talking about prime, which is, tbh, kinda out there, since we have on him when at prime, aside from fighting anakin lmaoo

and he still lost to mace windu, hence my point of raw power only taking one so far, and no formal training in what? he has been a force user since he was child, and was a warrior in his village. what he lacked was wits and experience, when compared to mace windu.

dooku is not traya tier man. thats like saying that he would struggle with sion or pre prime meetra in a fight, which is ridiculous. he has thrown corsairs before, i believe lol he should be about as powerful, in raw power, as nihilus if anything.

no more large responses please lol that one from yesterday took me like, an hour to do hahaha

yeah, thats what i was talking about. dooku saves grievous by using a technique made to kill people by crushing their hearts, but he uses it to save grievous instead, which, according to him, is a good 'skill feat'. i can look more into it if u want me to. i just learned about this recenetly tho, so i dont have all the details.

and i can find it, sure.
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on November 10th 2019, 3:49 pm
On Kalee, Grievous and his Izvoshra boarded his troop  shuttle Martyr . They set off to resume the Huk War, unaware that Dooku, Hill, and Poggle had planted an ion bomb  aboard, and rigged Grievous' pilot  seat to enable remote-guided ejection. The resulting explosion sent the Martyr plunging into the Jenuwaa Sea. Dooku's remote command ejected Grievous from the wreck at the last moment, but all his Izvoshra perished in the crash. His body, hemorrhaging and in shock, was dragged from the water, and Dooku used the arcane Sith  heart stun  technique to keep him from succumbing to cardiac arrest while en route to Geonosis.[10]

thats the dooku heart ability on GG thingy. source is ultimate visual guide.

i learned some things about bane after doing some reading. so he did in fact putting everything he knew into his holocron, which would technically speaking, include all that he could learn from revan, belia darzu, andeddu's, an nadd's holocrons. something to take into account tho, is that nadd, being the best alchemy/sorcery user ever, until like, vitiate came along, bane wasnt good enough to learn his alchemy/sorcery shit, as they were too advanced. he did only study and learn what he deemed important, which is reflective of him considering some of andeddu's shit useless lol. damn, nadd's technique was so good that while bane had just barely any trouble with learning essence transfer from andeddu, nadd's shit was so advanced that bane had no hope of learning it. well, thats pre prime, but impressive nonetheless. another cool thing is that while bane's power grew a lot with the orbalisks, the amount of raw power and strong emotions caused by the them, made his pure control and skill with the force worse, so delicate things, such as sorcery and alchemy, were extremely hard for him to do. so i was right about something- the holocron only tells the 'reader' what it wants. so bane had to force andeddu's holocron, for example, to tell him what he wanted to know.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/6248395-7422155011-52099.png 

^^^ thats the thing that says that bane's power was passed down
caffeineandshiny
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How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? - Page 2 Empty Re: How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on November 13th 2019, 4:35 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:[size=33]On Kalee, Grievous and his [/size][size=33]Izvoshra[/size][size=33] boarded his [/size][size=33]troop[/size]  [size=33]shuttle[/size] [size=33], [/size]Martyr [size=33]. They set off to resume the Huk War, unaware that Dooku, Hill, and Poggle had planted an [/size][size=33]ion bomb[/size] [size=33] aboard, and rigged Grievous' [/size][size=33]pilot[/size] [size=33] seat to enable remote-guided ejection. The resulting explosion sent the [/size][size=33]Martyr[/size][size=33] plunging into the Jenuwaa Sea. Dooku's remote command ejected Grievous from the wreck at the last moment, but all his [/size][size=33]Izvoshra[/size][size=33] perished in the crash. His body, hemorrhaging and in shock, was dragged from the water, and Dooku used the arcane [/size][size=33]Sith[/size]  [size=33]heart stun[/size] [size=33] technique to keep him from succumbing to cardiac arrest while [/size][size=33]en route[/size][size=33] to Geonosis.[/size][10]

thats the dooku heart ability on GG thingy. source is ultimate visual guide.

i learned some things about bane after doing some reading. so he did in fact putting everything he knew into his holocron, which would technically speaking, include all that he could learn from revan, belia darzu, andeddu's, an nadd's holocrons. something to take into account tho, is that nadd, being the best alchemy/sorcery user ever, until like, vitiate came along, bane wasnt good enough to learn his alchemy/sorcery shit, as they were too advanced. he did only study and learn what he deemed important, which is reflective of him considering some of andeddu's shit useless lol. damn, nadd's technique was so good that while bane had just barely any trouble with learning essence transfer from andeddu, nadd's shit was so advanced that bane had no hope of learning it. well, thats pre prime, but impressive nonetheless. another cool thing is that while bane's power grew a lot with the orbalisks, the amount of raw power and strong emotions caused by the them, made his pure control and skill with the force worse, so delicate things, such as sorcery and alchemy, were extremely hard for him to do. so i was right about something- the holocron only tells the 'reader' what it wants. so bane had to force andeddu's holocron, for example, to tell him what he wanted to know.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11128/111282615/6248395-7422155011-52099.png 

^^^ thats the thing that says that bane's power was passed down
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I've been quite busy. This also isn't going to be a full response, since you asked that I don't go crazy with the word count, so it'll only cover a few of the things you brought up. It doesn't not mean I agree by default though.

Your link is broken. I can only assume that you are referring to the Book of the Sith bit about how the flame is passed on to each Sith when they kill their master. Which is directly contradicted by Luke in the same book, who says the flame can be passed onto many people. Not just one. It is also referring to learning finding a strong apprentice who can carry on after you die. Not that Bane's literal power is going into the new Sith lord.

Kreia's claim is not baseless. It was confirmed by the KOTOR writers that what she said regarding the ancient Sith was to be regarded as true, because it was laying down ground work for KOTOR 3.

Revan knew all the abilities you listed, except Heart stun (although he did know high level Force stun which does the same thing. The only real difference is that force stun isn't Sith alchemy, it is a neutral ability, and it freezes the whole body rather than just the heart).

Heart stun is not a technique that kills and then brings someone back to life. It puts the target into stasis, that is why Grievous was "unconscious". It can be used to kill, but once you do that they aren't in "stasis" any more. They are dead (and only Maul demonstrated this, although I'm sure Dooku could've killed with it as well). But once they are dead, they can't be brought back. On top of that Dooku just left Grievous in stasis for a medical droid to save him. You want to talk real resurrection, look at SoR light half Revan or Sidious.

Revan not only could use drain knowledge, he used it to such a level that he dominated an entire species of telepathic and force resistant beings (the Rakata) and drove Galactic Basic into their minds, while taking their language for his own.

He also mentally dominated thousands of soldiers and Jedi, turning them to the dark side. While this was done partially by using the energies of Malachor 5, it was done in space. Not on the surface. And this was just Jedi Revan, before he even became Darth Revan. (And is really just as relevant, if not more so, than Dooku's showings while on dark side nexuses).

And he not only demonstrated the ability to sense the galaxy, his presence left imprints (even when he was just Darth Revan) that force sensitives could feel years later, he was a force nexus that even non force sensitives could feel the force through, and when he returned in SoR his presence caused the Force to "roil and convulse like never before" (which many people observed and commented on, and this was in spite of this being a time of war between the Sith and the Jedi which itself would have been causing great disturbances).

Plus Bane learned how to overcome poisons from Revan's holocron. The only reason the drug worked on Revan during the book was a) he didn't have his memories back yet and b) it was a force suppressant drug, not a poison.

My whole point is that Revan had access to information that Dooku didn't (a lot of it was destroyed when Trayus academy was destroyed, and when the Jedi temple was reduced to rubble and looted by the Sith during Malgus' attack) and Dooku had access to information Revan didn't. And while what Revan learned in a single year enough that his holocron was the cornerstone of Bane's abilities, what Dooku learned in 10 years, in spite of access to similar information, was far less. This is shown in particular by the fact that while Bane considered Andeddu's holocron to be useless, no more than the basics, Dooku grew greatly from it even after he had had 10 years of learning. After 10 years Dooku grew greatly from the basics.

You are also ignoring that Revan existed 3000 years before Bane and yet his information from a single year (plus whatever Jedi knowledge he put in, but I doubt it was that much considering Sith disdain for the light) was still so amazing. And he had more years to study than just his first year.

What Revan Reborn had access to and learned is highly comparable to what Dooku had access to and learned, in spite of Dooku having twice as long to do it.

And Dooku was not above tricks lmao. First of all, you bring up heart stun while ignoring that it was Sith alchemy, plus ignore all the cheap shots that Dooku used against stronger opponents. And yes Revan is a protagonist. Just like Anakin, just like Luke, just like the Outlander. Its inherently going to give them an advantage from a writing stand point. But that advantage has a lot to do with their inherent abilities and potential. They start out from the point of being "the best" and then grow from there. And my point about tricks was in reference to Revan's saber abilities. Being able to use high level force abilities are not mere "tricks".

The only real protagonist exception was Meetra, who started out as somewhere between average and "good" and became seriously amped up through KOTOR 2. She also had other advantages that made up for her initial lack of power, such as being able to use energy from her force bonds and being a wound in the force (which helps to explain why Kreia lost. Wounds make it so that force powers are hard to use).

But I have very carefully been avoiding 'wank' statements by leaving out developer opinions.

Also teleport is very much a skill one can learn. It is incredibly energy intensive, masters of it usually only being able to move within eye sight. Revan has the strength and skill to leave a space station, not to mention use it while battling several opponents immediately after tanking a blast that would have destroyed life within a kilometer, and having gone through a fight against an even stronger strike team. All the while having to deal with his light half actively helping the hero teams (such as shielding the Outlander from shadow Revan's attack and performing resurrections on the team, lifting objects like huge stone staircases for them to use, etc etc), on top of not being whole. Him using teleporting like it was nothing in the midst of all that shows a glimpse at his incredible Force reserves.

Same thing with drain. You are acting like its something that just anyone can do to the level that Revan used it, if they have the knowledge. Which is not true. And it is incredibly difficult to pull off during combat (and is the only reason I give Traya a 2.5 win against Dooku, seeing as that even if they are about equal in force power he would slaughter her in sabers).

I'm also baffled as to why you dismiss Maul so easily. I'm not saying he is equal to Dooku in every category but his sabers are frequently considered to be slightly better and his sheer unwillingness to stay down makes his performance even more impressive against Sidious (who was casually knocking him out). (although even then Maul's saber performance was only because Sidious allowed it, he demonstrated from the beginning his ability to casually ragdoll Maul). He and Dooku are very much peers, if not exactly equals. I don't agree with everything in this post (especially because I think Dooku would take majority against Maul) but you should give this a read https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/star-wars-universe-1943200/why-the-list-says-maul-dooku-1970524/

Plus we have Darth Gravid, who destroyed the vast majority of what the Banite Sith had knowledge and artifact wise around 500 BBY, setting them back by centuries.

Plus we have Revan demonstrating abilities on a far greater level than Dooku. Even including the ship that Dooku lifted (while he was on one of the strongest dark side nexus' in the galaxy) which was around 80 to 200 meters. Revan lifted 40 aestroids (which would have been made at least partially of iron and perhaps even durasteel, considering that they were being used to make a Rakata droid army) and hurled them with such force they shattered. And he did this immediately after having being in stasis, mentally bombarded, split almost in half mentally, and force drained for 300 years. Putting Foundry Revan at a weaker level than Revan Reborn in spite of his increased knowledge.

Revan literally manhandles top tier force users on a regular basis. With the force. Not with his knowledge, not with his hacks. With raw strength.

He completely overcame Malachor 5's dark energy trying to consume him, and fed on it in turn, despite Kreia being instantly overcome by it.

My point about Niman was that it WASN'T really Niman. It was just being called that because there is no better descriptor for it. My whole point is that Revan mastered all the forms (except Vaapad, obviously) and called on them as needed. And he practiced interchanging them while fighting Makashi users (which Dooku rarely broke form from, even in the end against Anakin, even if he knew other styles). And my point about Revan not being above using Trakata was in reference to saber combat (which Exar Kun was also a master of).

Your quote about the "greatest users of light and dark" can be interpreted two ways depending on what side of the fence you are on. The first is the way you used it, the second is that it is referring to embodied practitioners and not entities. Because the existence of Abeloth and the Son disprove it, and Vitiate (or whatever you want to call him) was an entity as well. (Also, the quote does not say "of all time" or indicate timelessness. It doesn't indicate whether it was referring to the current time or to all time)

Yoda does show a greater range than Dooku. I could go on a list about him, and that's not even getting into abilities that Yoda was predisposed towards like battle meditation. But the fact that Dooku never displayed skills like force storm, no matter how much he wanted to win or how dangerous a situation he was in, or techniques like Force Maelstrom, very much lends to the fact that he simply didn't have the raw power for them. And those are techniques that both Plagueis and Sidious (and Revan) and many other prodigy level Sith used.

Dooku also never used the light and dark sides of the Force at the same time the way Anakin and Revan did.

My point about Ventress and Dooku combining an attack to stop Savage was that he was slamming them into walls until Ventress used a push at the same time as Dooku's lightning. Even then, Savage basically brushed off every time Dooku used lightning.

And how about the fact that Dooku considered Savage "a threat to us all"? Plus, Plagueis considered Dooku a threat because of his sabers, and was basically using the threat that Dooku could be a replacement in order to keep Sidious in line.

Then we have Quinlan Vos who at least once used his unpredictability to out duel Dooku.

I agree that Dooku is no push over. This isn't about that.

But, to go full circle because this post is a mess, my point was that regardless of whether or not you agree that Revan Reborn> Dooku, I think you can at least agree that they are very close.

My point was that Revan Reborn got to, AT THE VERY LEAST (imo greater than), Dooku level in half the time it took Dooku himself in spite of Dooku having access to resources through his entire life and actively learning through his entire life. Which is what I was initially rebutting in the first place: that Dooku couldn't have been another Revan, because if he could have he had more than enough time and resources to do so. He reached the end of his life. Revan Reborn still had half a lifetime left to go, and who knows what he would have accomplished if he had been able to live naturally rather than going to challenge Vitiate when he did. Maybe he would have become a hero who could have lead the Republic to victory against the Sith Empire. Maybe he would have retired on an island to atrophy and drink blue milk.


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on November 13th 2019, 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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