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caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? Empty How do all the known holocrons stack against each other?

on Mon 4 Nov - 20:53
For this comparison I am curious as to how people would rate the various sith holocrons. Examples of the most well known ones include the Telos holocron, the Dark holocron, and Tulak Hord's holocron but these are certainly not the only ones that people can vote for.

Use whatever you want to, from the EU, to argue your case (i.e. character quotes, data files, writer quotes, etc).

(I apologize if this forum post is in the wrong section, it is my first post).
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Tue 5 Nov - 0:02
most banite holocrons>>>>>>>> any other holocron, aside from the great dark one. but then again, even after dooky stole it, he still thought very highly of andeddu's holocron. problem with the great dark one is that its old. revan's or bane's, for example, would be overall better imo. if sidious had a holocron, thats 100% what i would choose lol
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

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on Tue 5 Nov - 0:54
So then would you place the Telos holocron as highest, considering that is the one that Sidious owned and added to?

I have seen people claim that the Dark holocron was the strongest ever, but I have never found a quote stating that it was. (That is part of the reason I started the thread)

And how would you rank the other ones that you mentioned
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Tue 5 Nov - 2:28
yes, i would. albeit, usually, one big problem that all holocrons have- they never have everything. they either have the basics, advanced shit, secret shit, or new shit. i doubt sheev's holocron has anything bar the last three, so u would need to be god tier in skill to even use such a holocron. 

so yeah, the best it is in quality, the worse it is in efficiency of learning, if u arent already learned.

but if u are learned, then the banite holocron's, revan's, telos, supposedly vitiate's, the great dark one that u mentioned, freedon nadds, etc, are by far the best.
Master Azronger
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on Wed 6 Nov - 13:19
@caffeineandshiny Welcome to the forum.

To answer your question, The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology states the Dark Holocron is the most powerful Sith holocron. However, the statement is a bit problematic since the Dark Holocron was destroyed by Exar Kun, yet Dooku is noted to have somehow studied it. The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection does implicitly fix this plothole, though, by stating Dooku studied "a Dark Holocron" rather than "the" Dark Holocron, implying that there are multiple ones. But this then complicates the matter of what Sith holocron is the most powerful considerably.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

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on Wed 6 Nov - 21:01
Azronger wrote:@caffeineandshiny Welcome to the forum.

To answer your question, The New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology states the Dark Holocron is the most powerful Sith holocron. However, the statement is a bit problematic since the Dark Holocron was destroyed by Exar Kun, yet Dooku is noted to have somehow studied it. The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection does implicitly fix this plothole, though, by stating Dooku studied "a Dark Holocron" rather than "the" Dark Holocron, implying that there are multiple ones. But this then complicates the matter of what Sith holocron is the most powerful considerably.

Thank you! And thank you for your comprehensive response!

I have always wondered about Dooku possessing that and it always seemed "off" to me. Now you have provided a way that I don't have to reconcile Dooku having the Dark Holocron with the problems I see.

Number 1 of those problems is that Dooku seemed "weak" for what he should have been by having THE most powerful holocron. Now I know that having something doesn't mean you know everything it has to offer (and holocrons are notorious for withholding information correct?) but it seems to me that Dooku's power should have increased much more after he went to the darkside. Vs its seemed like (to me) his increase in power was less than a tier from when he was light.

And number 2, the bigger issue is that I don't see Palpatine allowing Dooku to keep a holocron that is "better" than the Telos holocron. Of course that is assuming he found out, which is no guarentee.

How would you rate the various named (sith) holocrons? If hype were to be believed 100%. Or is it impossible to say even taking hype into account?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Wed 6 Nov - 21:49
dooku isnt weak at all lol
caffeineandshiny
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on Wed 6 Nov - 23:07
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:dooku isnt weak at all lol
I didn't say he was. I said he was weak in comparison to what someone with his level of talent should have been able to do if they had had access to a holocron that was even greater than the Telos holocron. It was specifically phrased with respect for Dooku and expectation for the level he could have gotten to with that kind of information.
KingofBlades
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on Wed 6 Nov - 23:11
Holocrons are just reservoirs of knowledge. What really matters is a person's potential. Dooku could have all of the force knowledge in the world, but he can only go as high as his natural limit will allow. Of course there are ways to circumvent this limit, but that's a separate conversation.
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

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on Wed 6 Nov - 23:51
@KingofBlades wrote:Holocrons are just reservoirs of knowledge. What really matters is a person's potential. Dooku could have all of the force knowledge in the world, but he can only go as high as his natural limit will allow. Of course there are ways to circumvent this limit, but that's a separate conversation.
I realize this. That is why I said that just because someone has the knowledge doesn't mean that they they can use it. What I was referring to was that I believe that Dooku could have gone even higher than he did if he had had that kind of information.

Yoda thinks so too. "Much to learn you still have". Implying that Dooku could be better with more knowledge. Of course he is much clossr to his cap than a young or even middle aged man would be. But it is still there.

But all of this is beside the point, because the comment was in response to Az pointing out that Dooku did NOT have the Dark holocron.

My comments were simply noting how things could have (not would have) been different if he had had the single greatest repository of Sith knowledge.

And I still maintain that Dooku could have done a lot with that information.
BreakofDawn
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on Thu 7 Nov - 0:29
I'm pretty sure the "much to learn" line was Yoda dropping the mic, figuratively speaking. He was basically saying to Dooku "you've grown very powerful, but you overestimate yourself, as you are about to learn."
caffeineandshiny
caffeineandshiny

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on Thu 7 Nov - 1:42
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WalkingInCircles wrote:I'm pretty sure the "much to learn" line was Yoda dropping the mic, figuratively speaking. He was basically saying to Dooku "you've grown very powerful, but you overestimate yourself, as you are about to learn."

I agree that there was a double meaning in what he was saying (which was largely that, compared to Yoda, Dooku still had a lot he didn't know). To a person as old as Yoda, he probably sees information as something that people never stop accumulating, and being able to use.

And that was what I was really meaning. It wasn't that Dooku's raw power could grow much more, in the sense of being able to lift things and blast objects with lightning. It was that he definitely has the power already to be able to use a lot of the skills that such a holocron could offer to teach him (even if it wouldn't be all of them).

There are plenty of skill based powers that would have added greatly to Dooku's abilities and I think he was smart enough to learn at least some of them.

But, I wasn't making an argument that it could be demonstrated that he would have been more powerful. I was simply stating that it was a small thing that seemed "off" before. Not a plot hole at all, not even something that I would solidly stand behind, just a thought that if he owned THE Dark Holocron it seemed like he should have demonstrated some wacky powers like the Telos could offer people.

Which is, of course, an opinion. Not an attempt to convince anyone else.

And it was an opinion I only brought up because of Az showing that Dooku did NOT own the holocron, so I was commenting that his information helped to clear up a side thought that I had had in the back of my mind.

Much like I have wondered why Jedi don't use the Force to turn off ray shields. Or why the Jedi didn't follow up more on the Jango situation and the origin of the clones. It's not that they are really significant to the story of Star Wars. They are just a side thoughts.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu 7 Nov - 1:52
something to take into account about dooku is that he is no revan during his jedi era. he learned all he could as a young man, then became an instructor. he then started hungering for power as a dark jedi (which was around 70 or so years of age, meaning he had a somewhat stale power growth after he finished learning what he wanted as a jed), and could finally get it as a sith lord. for one, his first 5 years were enough for him to complete his basic sith lord training in case u didnt know. had he been power hungry since he was a kid, we wouldve had a totally different dooku. he wouldve easily been another revan tbh. him as a jedi is already one of the strongest jedi ever, then when we see him in AOTC as sith, he became so much stronger that yoda thought it was weird too. he even said that if dooku was this strong as a an apprentice and with only 10 years of training, just imagine how strong sidious would be.
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on Thu 7 Nov - 2:51
Dark Holocron for knowledge.

Darth Rivan's Holocron for an amp since the Gatekeeper became sentient and could amp people.
caffeineandshiny
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on Thu 7 Nov - 4:34
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@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:something to take into account about dooku is that he is no revan during his jedi era. he learned all he could as a young man, then became an instructor. he then started hungering for power as a dark jedi (which was around 70 or so years of age, meaning he had a somewhat stale power growth after he finished learning what he wanted as a jed), and could finally get it as a sith lord. for one, his first 5 years were enough for him to complete his basic sith lord training in case u didnt know. had he been power hungry since he was a kid, we wouldve had a totally different dooku. he wouldve easily been another revan tbh. him as a jedi is already one of the strongest jedi ever, then when we see him in AOTC as sith, he became so much stronger that yoda thought it was weird too. he even said that if dooku was this strong as a an apprentice and with only 10 years of training, just imagine how strong sidious would be.

I feel like you are downplaying just how driven Dooku was to seek out knowledge, he literally drove himself to excel as much as he was physically able through his entire youth and well into adulthood.

Plus, teachers still very much grow as combatants. In some ways even more so, because you are forced to really examine any flaws you might have so you aren't passing on bad habits.

You are also overplaying the fact he learned basic Sith skills in 5 years, and was only a Sith for 10 years, when you are comparing him to someone who was a Sith for 4 years and still awed Bane with his darkside knowledge, and became so powerful during this time that even non Force users could feel the force in his presence.

You are also completely ignoring that Dooku had Yoda (and Sidious!) for a master and Revan had Kreia. Which while Kreia is great and all Yoda is a monster compared to her in basically every category.

I would put Revan Reborn above Dooku, although I would give Dooku a sabers only match.

But I'll give you that if Dooku had trained harder in his later years he probably would have equaled Revan Reborn. And then Revan would have had 40 years to once again surpass him, cause he would still be in his 40s and Dooku was in his 80s.

This is of course assuming things had progressed naturally for Revan, instead of being swept into the future. Once he had the pipeline to Vitiate's mind his potential increased. And it speaks volumes about Revan's base powers, that he was able to use pure knowledge and make himself deadlier than ever even after he was split. I forgot who pointed it out but knowledge is only good if you have the power to put it into practice.

So no I don't think Dooku could have "easily" been another Revan. Not when he was close to his peak as it was, and Revan...wasn't.

But that is really beside the point. I don't want to get too muddled down in "vs" talk when I'm trying to gather opinions on holocrons lol.


Last edited by caffeineandshiny on Thu 7 Nov - 4:45; edited 1 time in total
caffeineandshiny
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on Thu 7 Nov - 4:36
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Dark Holocron for knowledge.

Darth Rivan's Holocron for an amp since the Gatekeeper became sentient and could amp people.
Thank you for your input!

Would you rate Darth Rivan's holocron higher than the Malachor Sith holocron, being that it was also sentient and could amp?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu 7 Nov - 4:58
i dont know much about jedi dooku. i do know he was driven of course (thats how he learned all that he could in the first place), but he was never as 'power hungry' (for the lack of a better word) as revan was. my point was to say that in 10 years time, when almost brainwashed by the power of the dark side, he had a massive growth in power. had he been training and learning at the rate that revan did as a young jedi, then i dont doubt that he couldve been as powerful as revan was whatsoever. 

another thing to point out, is that revan's power search lasted, i believe, for longer than dooku's did, so he had been 'power hungrieng' for a longer amount of time. see what i mean? had they both started off at the same time, they likely wouldve ended off as equals.
caffeineandshiny
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on Thu 7 Nov - 5:17
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@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i dont know much about jedi dooku. i do know he was driven of course (thats how he learned all that he could in the first place), but he was never as 'power hungry' (for the lack of a better word) as revan was. my point was to say that in 10 years time, when almost brainwashed by the power of the dark side, he had a massive growth in power. had he been training and learning at the rate that revan did as a young jedi, then i dont doubt that he couldve been as powerful as revan was whatsoever. 

another thing to point out, is that revan's power search lasted, i believe, for longer than dooku's did, so he had been 'power hungrieng' for a longer amount of time. see what i mean? had they both started off at the same time, they likely wouldve ended off as equals.
That's my point though. Revan DIDN'T spend a longer amount of time searching out knowledge than Dooku did. Dooku was around his mid thirties when he took Qui Gon as an apprentice (midthirties was also when Revan became a Sith). Until that point he was very much gobbling up every bit the knowledge that he could, he drove himself to excel, it was something he craved. To be better than his peers.

And then Revan spent LESS time as a Sith than Dooku did (by about 6 years) and accomplished a far greater power jump in that time.

On top of that Dooku had access to YODA as a knowledge source for at least a decade, and then Sidious for another decade.

And on top of that he had 40 more years of general experience than Revan did, and being a teacher doesn't mean he just stopped growing.

So given that Dooku actually had a lot more time to learn, as well an equal amount of intensive learning, and still rates lower than Revan. No, he wouldn't.

And once again Revan Reborn is far from Revan's peak. Much less what his peak could have been if he wasn't split.

Plus the fact that Revan was quite clearly born with greater force power, just like Dooku was born with greater saber talent.

I'm not disagreeing that Dooku could have been even more beastly. But so could Revan if he had been allowed to live his life naturally.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu 7 Nov - 13:02
im not doubting revan's potential, i know its pretty huge lol like, only people that should be above him are windu, galen, luke, anakin, sheev, etc. i disagree that he spent his whole time globbering knowledge lol dooku had learned everything he could before TPM, and yoda said that he had been ready to be the next grandmaster. his child self prolly did that though, i dont doubt it. he was young and cocky, so its really, really likely. but considering the fact that it took anakin and luke 2 or so years to learn every important thing about the jedi and their powers, i doubt it took dooku much more than that. he shouldve learned everything he wanted like, 10 or less years after he became a master. and he was always better than his peers, even when he was like, 9 and his peers were 12/13 y/o. by the time that he became a master, he was leagues above them.

another thing is that while revan took like, 30 or so years to learn everything he wanted, dooku learned almost everything sidious gave him in less than 10 years, and maybe a bit more to learn everything as a jedi. he likely didnt take 20 years to learn both of those together tbh.
caffeineandshiny
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on Thu 7 Nov - 14:54
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@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:im not doubting revan's potential, i know its pretty huge lol like, only people that should be above him are windu, galen, luke, anakin, sheev, etc. i disagree that he spent his whole time globbering knowledge lol dooku had learned everything he could before TPM, and yoda said that he had been ready to be the next grandmaster. his child self prolly did that though, i dont doubt it. he was young and cocky, so its really, really likely. but considering the fact that it took anakin and luke 2 or so years to learn every important thing about the jedi and their powers, i doubt it took dooku much more than that. he shouldve learned everything he wanted like, 10 or less years after he became a master. and he was always better than his peers, even when he was like, 9 and his peers were 12/13 y/o. by the time that he became a master, he was leagues above them.

another thing is that while revan took like, 30 or so years to learn everything he wanted, dooku learned almost everything sidious gave him in less than 10 years, and maybe a bit more to learn everything as a jedi. he likely didnt take 20 years to learn both of those together tbh.
See that's the thing you are just making up numbers now. I could easily do the same, after all Revan had learned everything he could from the Jedi well before the Mandalorian wars. It isn't like it actually took Revan until his mid 30s.

Mid 30s is the earliest you can say that Dooku slowed down in his learning and even then it certainly didn't stop.

There is no evidence whatsoever ever behind what you are saying. And given Dooku's performance gaining Sith knowledge vs Revan's performance (especially given that Dooku had a master and access to holocrons, and Revan just had what he could gather himself), there is actually evidence against it that REVAN is the far faster learner even when both are serious.

Dooku: so impressed with Sith lightning after 10 years of training he thinks it can beat Yoda.

Revan: learns the ritual of Nathema, gathers more knowledge than the entire Sith academy (and this is by himself, not with Sidious) in less than 4 years, developed techniques that even Bane wasn't sure he would ever dare to use, manages to become so proficient within the first year that he can control the energy of an entire planet to dominate thousands of Jedi mentally, able to force an entire language into a species of mind resistant aliens just because he was annoyed he couldn't talk to them. Ya know, it's the little things in life that matter.

And once again you are vastly downplaying how knowledge hungry Dooku was. He gained knowledge as much as he was able, and anything he didn't gain wasn't because he wasn't trying his hardest. And what he gained was simply lesser than what Revan gained, even with many opportunities that Dooku had over Revan.

Dooku was VERY close to his power cap as it was. The only thing more knowledge would have helped him with was skill.

I've actually been being nice to Dooku, because with access to a resource like Yoda and Sidious for decades we should be holding him accountable for how he stacks up against SoR Revan, not Revan Reborn. In which Dooku performes far less admirably than he would against Revan Reborn. And that is with SoR Revan being "not nearly" (quote from SWOR) as good as he would have been whole.

And I 100% disagree about putting Mace on that list. He isn't better than Revan, although he is close, and once again Revan never reached his potential. Mace's force showings are utterly unwhelming in comparison, although I would put him a tier above Revan in sabers.

And so long as we are talking about potential, I feel like it is an equally fair question to pose: what could Revan have accomplished saber wise if he had had Yoda for a master? Revan was literally the best of the order, there was no one for him to learn more from. Vs both Mace and Dooku had Yoda yo learn sabers from.

I also disagree with putting EU canon Galen on that list. His canon self (book self) is vastly inferior to what was shown in the games. Game Galen? Sure. What actually happened in the official version of events Galen? No lol.

And once again you are comparing someone with large force power but amazing sabers to someone with monster force power and simply "great" sabers.


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lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu 7 Nov - 15:10
luke learning all he could from obi wan and yoda i 2 or so years is a made up number? ok man, u do that.

and he became a master of the dark side 5 years after leaving the order my man. revan being a sith lord for 6 years and still learning is shit compared to dooku, who btw, had more knowledge to learn from than revan ever did.

and dooku can one shot ventress with his little impressive lightning. yoda said that deflecting it wasnt easy at all. i wanna see revan do better lol

and i dont see where u find this mega hungryness that dooku supposedly had. i wanna see where thats from, man. wanting to learn is one thing. being like revan and exar kun is another.

and revan tried much harder than dooku, from what i can tell. and dooku had much more knowledge than revan, so he learned more stuff in a lesser amount of time.

there is literally no proof that he was close to his cap. by TPM, when he literally one of the strongest jedi in history by that point, he gained a huge amp just by using the dark side, while not even being fully trained in it ways yet. he also grew a good bit throughout the clone wars too. he was always getting stronger.

and yoda isnt a resource, neither is sidious. yoda wouldnt teach dooku all that he know in the first place, and sidious doenst teach his pupils personally at all. maul is a maybe cuz he had more time to do so, and he was his first apprentice.

mace was literally considered to have been the chosen one lol thats better than anything potential related that revan has.

galen is said to have sheev+ potential my man
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on Thu 7 Nov - 16:38
dooku had much more knowledge than revan, so he learned more stuff in a lesser amount of time.

Dooku definitely doesn't have more knowledge than Revan. How do all the known holocrons stack against each other? 1220391476
BreakofDawn
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on Thu 7 Nov - 17:08
If Star Wars was like Harry Potter, then yes he'd have more knowledge. However, Revan learned techniques lost to time. They're comparable, but Revan is definitely more knowledgeable. I'd say he's around the same level as Yoda or Sidious in terms of know-how.
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on Thu 7 Nov - 17:09
mace was literally considered to have been the chosen one lol thats better than anything potential related that revan has.

When was Mace considered the Chosen One? I've only seen this once, and it was a fan theory for why Mace didn't trust Anakin.

As for Mace's Force showings, he has a similar problem to Vader in terms of portrayals. It's important to distinguish between pre-2005 Mace (who was a peer of Dooku's but firmly behind Yoda by a decent margin) and 2005 onwards Mace, who was a peer of Sidious and Yoda. Honestly, his redirection of a blast from Sidious despite numerous disadvantages and holding off Sheev's lightning for a time despite Sidious basically going all out and him being exhausted impresses me as much if not more than Revan's feats. Just my opinion.

As for Revan, again he only lost his wisdom and restraint. It didn't weaken him power wise, only made him very gullible and easy to manipulate. The guy is firmly above the likes of Dooku and Arcann in power, not sure why this is shameful as a position. He's behind only the ROTS titans (Mace, Yoda, MFV, Sidious) as well as maybe Plagueis, Valk, GM Luke, the Outlander and unchained Vaylin in pure power off the top of my head.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu 7 Nov - 18:57
i wonder where this hype about the amount of info revan has came from lol

@walkingcircles i heard about that too lol hahaha wtf 
nah, nothing is as bad as vader's portrayals lol
pre 2005, mace was prolly behind dooku tbh. by ROTS he surpassed him in power, i believe.
i dont discard his power? i put them as equals, if we are talking about the 'supposedly stronger than AOTC dooku' ROTS dooku, since that was his prime. problem with revan is that his scaling puts him around pre valk vitiate, who is possibly below plagueis, who is below TPM sheev after the boost, who is below ROTS sheev. dooku, at least, has good showings against yoda while before prime. revan> AOTC dooku of course, but he shouldnt be above ROTS dooku imo.
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