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DarthAnt66
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 9th 2019, 5:53 pm
As far as I'm aware, the Emperor regarding post-Mustafar Vader as a disappointment compared to pre-Mustafar Vader and, more importantly, the Vader pre-Mustafar Vader could've become was the prevailing consensus until the Disney buyout.

Any "insights" offered from this interview are a mere regurgitation of what's already been said elsewhere, including page 33 of The Art and Making of The Force Unleashed:

Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 1220391476

Even if Lucas' take that Palpatine believed Vader to be "broken" was mainstream, it still wouldn't be irrelevant to post an additional source restating that. Lucas' word can institute sweeping retcons across the continuity, so it's always beneficial to have additional sources backing up that that's what he believes. That being said, most members have never seen Lucas say that. The argument that Palpatine believes Vader to be "broken" has always been entirely rooted around C-Canon statements. The AaMoTFU quote you posted has been lost in time, never posted on SI, and forgotten by most members. Ergo, this quote I posted is "the first" to shed light on the subject. 

The Emperor does indeed have quotes and musings that indicate a favorable opinion of Vader, including the last chapter of Stover's Revenge of the Sith novelization to the reborn Emperor's assessment of Vader in The Essential Guide to the Force.

But that's because different authors have different takes on the character. Lucas, on the other hand, has been crooning his ballad about Vader for the better part of 16 years at least

Then you should be able to see the utility in sharing Lucas' opinion, since his take on this specific subject (i.e. Palpatine's opinion) has not been commonly known prior.

Not precisely. Lucas thinks that and Blackman cedes that while Lucas and the Emperor might have a point, Blackman says he thinks Vader is "the most badass villain ever created" and specifically wrote The Lost Command as a way to rekindle his awe of Vader and, in part, to prove the Emperor (and by extension, Lucas) wrong.

Blackman regards Vader as the most badass villain ever whereas Lucas... doesn't. Whether you want to regard this is an outright contradiction between the two or a cynical effort by Blackman to pay lipservice to Lucas's edicts while disregarding their substance is your call and there's basis for either interpretation, but I'm just saying: it's clearly not consensus.

The red text is exactly the point I'm making. The fact Vader's badass doesn't preclude Lucas' take, and Lucas' take is what I want members to take away from this quote.

tl;dr: you jumped the gun and assumed everyone already had your opinion on the subject, which was wrong, then assumed even if everyone had your opinion the quote's irrelevant, which was wrong
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 9th 2019, 6:17 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
As far as I'm aware, the Emperor regarding post-Mustafar Vader as a disappointment compared to pre-Mustafar Vader and, more importantly, the Vader pre-Mustafar Vader could've become was the prevailing consensus until the Disney buyout.

Any "insights" offered from this interview are a mere regurgitation of what's already been said elsewhere, including page 33 of The Art and Making of The Force Unleashed:

Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 1220391476

Even if Lucas' take that Palpatine believed Vader to be "broken" was mainstream, it still wouldn't be irrelevant to post an additional source restating that. Lucas' word can institute sweeping retcons across the continuity, so it's always beneficial to have additional sources backing up that that's what he believes. That being said, most members have never seen Lucas say that. The argument that Palpatine believes Vader to be "broken" has always been entirely rooted around C-Canon statements. The AaMoTFU quote you posted has been lost in time, never posted on SI, and forgotten by most members. Ergo, this quote I posted is "the first" to shed light on the subject.

My son, I said this quote isn't "insightful or decisive," not that it's irrelevant to your anti-Vader crusade. And I stand by that.

It's an article where a guy who wrote two games and some comics about Vader being a badass wrote them specifically with that in mind, despite what his boss and Vader's boss personally think of Vader.

Then you should be able to see the utility in sharing Lucas' opinion, since his take on this specific subject (i.e. Palpatine's opinion) has not been commonly known prior.

You've spent a year proselytizing and evoking Lucas's opinion on Vader every chance you get, with remarkable success. Hence why I don't regard this as decisive or insightful. The fact that Lucas says the Emperor regards Vader a certain way also doesn't change the fact that other sources depict the Emperor contrarily to Lucas's opinion.

The red text is exactly the point I'm making. The fact Vader's badass doesn't preclude Lucas' take, and Lucas' take is what I want members to take away from this quote.

tl;dr: you jumped the gun and assumed everyone already had your opinion on the subject, which was wrong, then assumed even if everyone had your opinion the quote's irrelevant, which was wrong

You've been successfully lobbying Lucas's take for a long time and I don't think what you have here is anything approaching a silver bullet or better than what you already have. It's literally Haden saying "Hey George told me the Emperor thinks Vader sucks but I wrote these things where Vader doesn't suck with Vader not sucking in mind."

I didn't say it was irrelevant. Just not decisive or insightful.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 9th 2019, 6:22 pm
@Gideon/Tempest: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 1419419311 There's a distinction between Lucas thinking Vader's broken and Lucas thinking Palpatine thinks Vader to be broken within the purposes of debate, the latter of which has never been highlighted prior. In the last, I've exclusively commented on how Lucas thinks Vader's broken.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 9th 2019, 6:52 pm
How did this anti-Vader brigade start?
BreakofDawn
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 5:38 am
@SithSauce wrote:How did this anti-Vader brigade start?
They're clearly not aware that Vader is beyond planetary level.
Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Source

Spoiler:


IIRC, it largely began when Ant started raging over people comparing Revan and Vader.  Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 4037459623
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 9:45 am
WalkingInCircles wrote:
@SithSauce wrote:How did this anti-Vader brigade start?
They're clearly not aware that Vader is beyond planetary level.
Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Source

Spoiler:


IIRC, it largely began when Ant started raging over people comparing Revan and Vader.  Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 4037459623
I'm certainly not one who thinks Vader is superior to Revan, but how does all these  G-Canon quotes about Vader prove he is inferior to Revan? It seems like he just doesn't like Vader in general. He already has a huge following that agrees with him, yet he continually finds and posts all these quotes about Vader, as if he wants his reputation destroyed completely
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 9:49 am
BTW I think Ant is a really good debater
This is just my one problem with him
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 9:51 am
He doesn't hate Vader. He personally holds him around TPM Maul level, in fact.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:00 am
I'm certainly not one who thinks Vader is superior to Revan, but how does all these  G-Canon quotes about Vader prove he is inferior to Revan? It seems like he just doesn't like Vader in general. He already has a huge following that agrees with him, yet he continually finds and posts all these quotes about Vader, as if he wants his reputation destroyed completely



Partly due to his debate with Az, I guess. Problem with using Lucas quotes is that, as far as Lucas is concerned, Revan didn't even exist as a part of his universe until The Clone Wars (and actually still doesn't), so using G-canon quotes to compare them is basically cherry-picking. 
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:09 am
WalkingInCircles wrote:"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing"
- George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette, 1999.

Looking at this again, if he really did say "a Jedi in his prime," then wouldn't that retcon the idea of Qui-Gon Jinn being past his prime, and by necessity not be talking about Obi-Wan whose prime we know to be much later? Unless of course one wants to argue Lucas means TPM Kenobi > RotS Kenobi, but in that case the idea of Vader being below him isn't all that problematic to begin with.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:21 am
@Azronger Lucas contradicting himself is nothing new lol
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:22 am
@Azronger

Yeah, I've been re-evaluating these sorts of quotes from Lucas recently. I don't think these can necessarily be blanket applied; plus Lucas doesn't seem to be consistent on these issues except arguably in generalities (Vader was crippled in terms of potential and movement by his suit for example). As you said, Qui-Gon is 60 years old by TPM, and Kenobi is a Jedi Padawan. I think we're conflating Lucas' use of the word "prime" with "our" own definition within the context of the debating community. I think that, in this context, Lucas is referring to "prime" as in the apex of a Jedi's access to training and experience. They were trained from the youngest age, as opposed to the example of Luke starting it late in the OT. So then we have Luke being trained a lot later than usual for what a Jedi should be, combined with limited training/experience. Luke was taught a couple of lessons by Ben, and then a little by Yoda, and with this he was supposed to fight a Sith Lord and save the galaxy, essentially. Contrast this with the new PT, where the Jedi are an actual organisation. They're in their "prime" as far as Lucas is concerned. The fighting is "faster" because these guys have been keeping active, have trained a hell of a lot more than Luke, and have a bunch more experience.

So this is how Lucas views it within the confines of his own universe, so then the question is where we draw the line when analysing his interpretations and how these apply to the "Films+EU" continuity.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:25 am
Just to point out that Lucas also all but admitted that his previous quote was almost completely due to the restrictive nature of the Vader costume.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:26 am
And remember that Lucas is viewing the choreography "speeding up" as we progress through the films as correlating linearly with the characters. For the OT, we have Ben and Vader being older than they used to be; Ben is out of practice and Vader is crippled by his suit. In ESB Vader has the edge, but Luke is learning. In RotJ, Luke is fighting Vader as an "equal". For Lucas, the speed of the fighting is "literal". This isn't compatible with "Films+EU".
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:27 am
WalkingInCircles wrote:Just to point out that Lucas also all but admitted that his previous quote was almost completely due to the restrictive nature of the Vader costume.

Not arguing with you here, but can you substantiate this? Interested to see.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:32 am
Vorpal Blade wrote:
WalkingInCircles wrote:Just to point out that Lucas also all but admitted that his previous quote was almost completely due to the restrictive nature of the Vader costume.

Not arguing with you here, but can you substantiate this? Interested to see.
Just how restrictive was that costume?
He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England. And Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter. For the final film, Hayden [Christensen] and Obi-Wan – I mean Ewan – took it very seriously; they trained for months. Those swords are carbon fiber: We went through lots of them, because they were hitting so hard, they would get bent. It’s like learning to dance, only if you make a mistake, you really get hurt.


- George Lucas and the cult of Darth Vader, 2005.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 10:39 am
Nice quote. Yeah, I think Lucas was talking more in terms of "generalities" than anything else. And this above quote arguably retcons the 1999 quote as well. Quite interesting.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:06 am
Alright, let's parse through Lucas' whole quote.



"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing"

George Lucas
Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette

Qui-Gon is older than anyone we see fight in the original trilogy so by default he is one of the "old people" and not a "real Jedi," so the quote doesn't establish him as Vader's superior. That leaves us with Obi-Wan, who is 25, so he can technically be argued to not be a "young boy" like the 23-year-old Luke in RotJ, but if his prime is TPM, then he is also superior to his RotS counterpart and Vader's inferiority to him isn't an issue, at least in my eyes given the high opinion I have of RotS Kenobi. However, since Maul was given a pretty damn good fight by Qui-Gon who we've established isn't a real Jedi, every iteration of Obi-Wan is trash as well since Maul beat him in his prime. This view is bolstered by Obi-Wan's performances against TCW Maul who is one those "half-droid, half-men" like Vader, given that 50% of his body is cybernetics. Therefore, every character in TPM sucks and none of them are really better than anyone in the OT going by Lucas' metrics.

As for the rest of the PT, Yoda and Palpatine are also utterly terrible as they all fall into the "old men" category, and RotS Anakin falls into the "young boys" classification as he is the same age in RotS and Luke is in RotJ. Since every PT character scales below them, the entire era must be shit alongside Vader. Which makes me wonder how it could even be considered "the prime of the Jedi" in the first place.

_________________
Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Sheev_sig_3
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:16 am
Vorpal Blade wrote:@Azronger

Yeah, I've been re-evaluating these sorts of quotes from Lucas recently. I don't think these can necessarily be blanket applied; plus Lucas doesn't seem to be consistent on these issues except arguably in generalities (Vader was crippled in terms of potential and movement by his suit for example). As you said, Qui-Gon is 60 years old by TPM,  and Kenobi is a Jedi Padawan. I think we're conflating Lucas' use of the word "prime" with "our" own definition within the context of the debating community. I think that, in this context, Lucas is referring to "prime" as in the apex of a Jedi's access to training and experience. They were trained from the youngest age, as opposed to the example of Luke starting it late in the OT. So then we have Luke being trained a lot later than usual for what a Jedi should be, combined with limited training/experience. Luke was taught a couple of lessons by Ben, and then a little by Yoda, and with this he was supposed to fight a Sith Lord and save the galaxy, essentially. Contrast this with the new PT, where the Jedi are an actual organisation. They're in their "prime" as far as Lucas is concerned. The fighting is "faster" because these guys have been keeping active, have trained a hell of a lot more than Luke, and have a bunch more experience.

So this is how Lucas views it within the confines of his own universe, so then the question is where we draw the line when analysing his interpretations and how these apply to the "Films+EU" continuity.

Yeah, ILS raised the excellent point a while back that we tend to ascribe meaning to quotes that isn't necessarily there. If you want to, you can certainly make the case that "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" isn't as straight-forward of an endorsement that they're better than Vader as someone who views everything through the lens of versus debating would at first believe.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:28 am
Azronger wrote:Alright, let's parse through Lucas' whole quote.



"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing"

George Lucas
Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette

Qui-Gon is older than anyone we see fight in the original trilogy so by default he is one of the "old people" and not a "real Jedi," so the quote doesn't establish him as Vader's superior. That leaves us with Obi-Wan, who is 25, so he can technically be argued to not be a "young boy" like the 23-year-old Luke in RotJ, but if his prime is TPM, then he is also superior to his RotS counterpart and Vader's inferiority to him isn't an issue, at least in my eyes given the high opinion I have of RotS Kenobi. However, since Maul was given a pretty damn good fight by Qui-Gon who we've established isn't a real Jedi, every iteration of Obi-Wan is trash as well since Maul beat him in his prime. This view is bolstered by Obi-Wan's performances against TCW Maul who is one those "half-droid, half-men" like Vader, given that 50% of his body is cybernetics. Therefore, every character in TPM sucks and none of them are really better than anyone in the OT going by Lucas' metrics.

As for the rest of the PT, Yoda and Palpatine are also utterly terrible as they all fall into the "old men" category, and RotS Anakin falls into the "young boys" classification as he is the same age in RotS and Luke is in RotJ. Since every PT character scales below them, the entire era must be shit alongside Vader. Which makes me wonder how it could even be considered "the prime of the Jedi" in the first place.

The opposite of this, actually.

Lucas says we'll see "a Jedi in his prime fighting" and that this will be reflected by a "much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" in TPM. That's referring to Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan -- they're the only two Jedi fighting. Ergo, Lucas does not classify Qui-Gon in the "old men" category nor TPM Obi-Wan in the "young boys" category, for he's contrasting those categories with Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan specifically. Evidently and demonstrably, being an "old man" or "young boy" alone does not preclude one from being "a Jedi in his prime fighting." Rather, there must be qualities associated with the "old men" (i.e. ANH Darth Vader, Ben Kenobi) and "young boys" (i.e. ROTJ Luke) categories of the OT that are absent from the PT (or vice versa). As Meatpants said, that's about how TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are both hyper fast (unlike the OT's "old men") and hyper skilled (unlike the OT's "young boys"), hence the overarching emphasis on super improved choreography in all facets.

As for Lucas saying we'll see "a Jedi in his prime fighting," that does not mean Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan are literally in their exact prime they'll ever be. You run into this issue a lot, but a hyper-literal interpretation of the quote is not always the correct one, and in this case it's clearly not -- unless you want to argue Lucas planned to keep Obi-Wan the same level across the PT despite intending to show his progression from a Padawan to a Jedi Master? Rather, in contrast to the "old men" and "young boys" that have lost the energetic and/or skillful qualities of the PT, we'll see Jedi who actually have those qualities. 
[hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on October 10th 2019, 11:37 am; edited 10 times in total
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:29 am
@Azronger

Well I do think a big part of the issue here is the interpretation of Lucas' viewpoint, and secondly how we draw the line between "films only" and "films+EU". Even using the Holocron in debates is really confusing, since almost everything is a case-by-case basis for analysis. What did Lucas "really mean", for example. Even God's word so-to-speak can be interpreted in different ways; quite similar to the Bible.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:35 am
We can also refer to Pablo Hidalgo clarifying Lucas' meaning in Star Wars Insider:

Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 True_j10

"Luke, though not as skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels, is still a formidable opponent, and he is very strong in the Force."

Luke lacks the skill or the acrobatics of the PT Jedi. That being said, and I want to emphasize this point, that does not mean Luke is necessarily less formidable than the PT Jedi. Fightsaber emphasizes Luke can basically instantly mirror Vader's fighting skills, and Pablo highlights Luke is super powerful.

WalkingInCircles wrote:
I'm certainly not one who thinks Vader is superior to Revan, but how does all these  G-Canon quotes about Vader prove he is inferior to Revan? It seems like he just doesn't like Vader in general. He already has a huge following that agrees with him, yet he continually finds and posts all these quotes about Vader, as if he wants his reputation destroyed completely



Partly due to his debate with Az, I guess. Problem with using Lucas quotes is that, as far as Lucas is concerned, Revan didn't even exist as a part of his universe until The Clone Wars (and actually still doesn't), so using G-canon quotes to compare them is basically cherry-picking. 

Strikes me as questionable to assume (falsely) my motives then attribute unethical practices to them (i.e. cherry-picking). Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 1220391476
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:47 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Azronger wrote:Alright, let's parse through Lucas' whole quote.



"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing"

George Lucas
Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette

Qui-Gon is older than anyone we see fight in the original trilogy so by default he is one of the "old people" and not a "real Jedi," so the quote doesn't establish him as Vader's superior. That leaves us with Obi-Wan, who is 25, so he can technically be argued to not be a "young boy" like the 23-year-old Luke in RotJ, but if his prime is TPM, then he is also superior to his RotS counterpart and Vader's inferiority to him isn't an issue, at least in my eyes given the high opinion I have of RotS Kenobi. However, since Maul was given a pretty damn good fight by Qui-Gon who we've established isn't a real Jedi, every iteration of Obi-Wan is trash as well since Maul beat him in his prime. This view is bolstered by Obi-Wan's performances against TCW Maul who is one those "half-droid, half-men" like Vader, given that 50% of his body is cybernetics. Therefore, every character in TPM sucks and none of them are really better than anyone in the OT going by Lucas' metrics.

As for the rest of the PT, Yoda and Palpatine are also utterly terrible as they all fall into the "old men" category, and RotS Anakin falls into the "young boys" classification as he is the same age in RotS and Luke is in RotJ. Since every PT character scales below them, the entire era must be shit alongside Vader. Which makes me wonder how it could even be considered "the prime of the Jedi" in the first place.

The opposite of this, actually.

Lucas says we'll see "a Jedi in his prime fighting" and that this will be reflected by a "much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" in TPM. That's referring to Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan -- they're the only two Jedi fighting. Ergo, Lucas does not classify Qui-Gon in the "old men" category nor TPM Obi-Wan in the "young boys" category, for he's contrasting those categories with Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan specifically. Evidently and demonstrably, being an "old man" or "young boy" alone does not preclude one from being "a Jedi in his prime fighting." Rather, there must be qualities associated with the "old men" (i.e. ANH Darth Vader, Ben Kenobi) and "young boys" (i.e. ROTJ Luke) categories of the OT that are absent from the PT (or vice versa). As Meatpants said, that's about how TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are both hyper fast (unlike the OT's "old men") and hyper skilled (unlike the OT's "young boys"), hence the overarching emphasis on super improved choreography in all facets.

If Lucas doesn't classify Qui-Gon as an old man then he is simply a dumbass since Qui-Gon is older than anyone who fights in the original trilogy. He sucks just like Vader and OT Ben. Not a real Jedi.

As for Lucas saying we'll see "a Jedi in his prime fighting," that does not mean Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan are literally in their exact prime they'll ever be. You run into this issue a lot, but a hyper-literal interpretation of the quote is not always the correct one, and in this case it's clearly not -- unless you want to argue Lucas planned to keep Obi-Wan the same level across the PT despite intending to show his progression from a Padawan to a Jedi Master? Rather, in contrast to the "old men" and "young boys" that have lost the energetic and/or skillful qualities of the PT, we'll see Jedi who actually have those qualities. 
[hideedit]

Right, Qui-Gon is old so he is past his prime. We already established that. And if Obi-Wan isn't in his prime in TPM, then it doesn't matter as Lucas specifically said "So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing." So if we see no Jedi in their prime fighting in TPM, then none of them are necessarily more energetic or faster than Vader.
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:48 am
I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion on the quotes?
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Master Azronger
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Moderator | Champion of the Light

Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

on October 10th 2019, 11:51 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:I thought we were trying to have a serious discussion on the quotes?

Strikes me as questionable to assume (falsely) my motives then attribute unethical practices to them (i.e. trolling). Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 1220391476

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Last edited by Azronger on October 10th 2019, 11:52 am; edited 2 times in total
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Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin - Page 2 Empty Re: Hayden Blackman on Lucas, Vader vs Anakin

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