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HellfireUnit
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Top 10 PT Era Lightsaber Duelists - Page 2 Empty Re: Top 10 PT Era Lightsaber Duelists

on September 13th 2019, 3:22 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Anyone who has mace ahead of KF Vader is objectively wrong. Mace is an 8 bordering 9. KF Vader is a straight 9.

You are right though, but Vaapad is the reason I put Mace among the top on the list. I personally think Dooku > Mace in skill.
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on September 13th 2019, 3:42 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Anyone who has mace ahead of KF Vader is objectively wrong. Mace is an 8 bordering 9. KF Vader is a straight 9.

You are right though, but Vaapad is the reason I put Mace among the top on the list. I personally think Dooku > Mace in skill.

This is including force augmentation
Master Azronger
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on September 13th 2019, 4:02 pm
1. Yoda
2. Sidious
3. Vader
4/5/6. Mace/Kenobi/Plagueis
7. Hett
8. Dooku
9. Maul
10. Grievous

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Top 10 PT Era Lightsaber Duelists - Page 2 Sheev_sig_3
BreakofDawn
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on September 13th 2019, 4:25 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Anyone who has mace ahead of KF Vader is objectively wrong. Mace is an 8 bordering 9. KF Vader is a straight 9.
Except Mace is a solid 9 per the Making of Revenge of the Sith and has already proved that he can out duel Sheev. He’s definitely on KFV’s level, if not above. What saber feats does Vader have to suggest he's > Mace, Sidious or Yoda? He might have a slight raw power edge over the three (debatable), but he's not more skilled than them. All he has going for him is being > Zonakin who stomped a tired Dooku, that's not enough to put him above Mace.
NotAA3
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on September 13th 2019, 6:22 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:1. Darth Vader
2. Yoda
3. Palpatine
4. Mace Windu
5. Dooku
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Obi-Wan Kenobi
8. Darth Maul

Hard to pick the final two.

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Meatpants
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on September 13th 2019, 7:16 pm
1. KF Vader / Yoda
2. Yoda / KF Vader
3. Sidious
4. Plagueis
5. Dooku 
6. Mace Windu 
7. Maul 
8. Kenobi 
9. Ventress
10. Qui-Gon
Meatpants
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on September 13th 2019, 7:19 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:Anyone who has mace ahead of KF Vader is objectively wrong. Mace is an 8 bordering 9. KF Vader is a straight 9.
Except Mace is a solid 9 per the Making of Revenge of the Sith and has already proved that he can out duel Sheev. He’s definitely on KFV’s level, if not above. What saber feats does Vader have to suggest he's > Mace, Sidious or Yoda? He might have a slight raw power edge over the three (debatable), but he's not more skilled than them. All he has going for him is being > Zonakin who stomped a tired Dooku, that's not enough to put him above Mace.

1. He’s not a solid 9, you can’t take one source and champion it over others contradicting it.

2. He doesn’t “out-duel” Sheev in the sense you’re meaning. 

3. Thus, Windu has no business with the tier 9’s, of whom Zonakin/KF/MF is a part of.
BreakofDawn
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on September 13th 2019, 7:56 pm
@Meatpants 

1. He’s not a solid 9, you can’t take one source and champion it over others contradicting it



The only source that contradicts this is the “8 bordering on nine” one, which doesn’t even really contradict it since, per Giliard’s own words, there is a huge gap between the two so Mace’s position would be at best nebulous. I’m more inclined to believe the original artistic intent over a somewhat nonsensical other quote, especially since said intent was reflected by both the narrative, the creator, and the leading stunt coordinator.


We also don’t know where Sheev and Yoda lie in the tier nine bracket. For example, they could be just inside of it whereas someone like Luke is at the very top. There is zero hierarchy established within the tiers.


Also, it’s hypocritical to claim that I’m putting one quote over others considering that’s exactly what the 8/9 quote does.
.



2. He doesn’t “out-duel” Sheev in the sense you’re meaning

They stalemate, Mace gains a very slight advantage, then lobs Sheev’s lightsaber in half/kicks it from his hand. At worst, you can argue they’re equals.



3. Thus, Windu has no business with the tier 9’s, of whom Zonakin/KF/MF is a part of.

Except he does per Lucas, Giliard, and a variety of other sources.
Meatpants
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on September 13th 2019, 10:57 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:The only source that contradicts this is the “8 bordering on nine” one, which doesn’t even really contradict it since, per Giliard’s own words, there is a huge gap between the two so Mace’s position would be at best nebulous. I’m more inclined to believe the original artistic intent over a somewhat nonsensical other quote, especially since said intent was reflected by both the narrative, the creator, and the leading stunt coordinator.

If we have two quotes talking about power level, we take the least favourable one; in which case Mace is "eight bordering nine". But even that is nebulous, as you said yourself. By definition, Windu remains an 8 via that quote - and I find it impossible to argue that Windu is a flat 9 baseline.

@BreakofDawn wrote:We also don’t know where Sheev and Yoda lie in the tier nine bracket. For example, they could be just inside of it whereas someone like Luke is at the very top. There is zero hierarchy established within the tiers.

Well the implication is that tier 9 is flat. If you're tier 9, you're tier 9 and that's it:

Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

--The Official Star Wars Website

I see the tiers as being relevant only in the context of the RotS film - it was there so that Gillard would know how to choreograph the fights. Tier 9 is clearly intended to be the limit, and I'm not a huge proponent of using the tier system outside of the film for that reason. And as the above quote implies, at tier 9 styles and environment decide the fight.

@BreakofDawn wrote:Also, it’s hypocritical to claim that I’m putting one quote over others considering that’s exactly what the 8/9 quote does.

Well no, you're using the tier 9 quote to argue Mace is solidly 9, but there's another quote clearly contradicting him being that; so it's not correct to just take the higher one and argue for it.

---

@BreakofDawn wrote:They stalemate, Mace gains a very slight advantage, then lobs Sheev’s lightsaber in half/kicks it from his hand. At worst, you can argue they’re equals.

I mean, the RotS novel basically screams that Sidious threw the fight intentionally; and consider that at the end of the fight, Windu is outright exhausted while Sidious is seemingly fresh, despite just being disarmed. There's no feasible way to argue Windu is Sidious' equal in sabers.
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on September 13th 2019, 11:35 pm
Hurricane_of_Dorian wrote:@ILS @CuckedCurry @Shioz @HellfireUnit are y'all's lists in order?
Yes.
BreakofDawn
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on September 13th 2019, 11:54 pm
@Meatpants Will get back to this later.
King Joker
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on September 14th 2019, 1:11 am
1. Yoda
2. Darth Sidious
3. Anakin Skywalker

4. Mace Windu
5. Count Dooku
6. Darth Plagueis
7. Obi-Wan Kenobi
8. Darth Maul

9. Asajj Ventress
10. Savage Opress
Ziggy
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on September 14th 2019, 1:47 am
Yoda 
Sidious 
Dooku
Mace
Plagueis 
Anakin 
Maul 
Plo Koon
Obi Wan
Ventress
Meatpants
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on September 14th 2019, 10:03 pm
@Ziggy in what world is Plo Koon better than Qui-Gon or even other councillors like Shaak Ti or Mundi?
NotAA3
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on September 14th 2019, 10:05 pm
1. Yoda
2. Darth Sidious
3. Anakin Skywalker

Anakin is Yoda's stated superior as a duellist and outperformed him against Count Dooku...
MasterCilghal
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on September 15th 2019, 3:02 am
@Ziggy how is Koon better than Kenobi?
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