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The Ellimist
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on September 11th 2019, 5:18 am
Luke Skywalker
UnuThul
Darth Caedus
Kyle Katarn
DE Sidious
RotJ Sidious
RotS Sidious
Plagueis
Vjun Dooku
Dooku
Obi Wan
Maul
Ventress
Kit Fisto
Valkorion
Vitiate
Revan
Vaylin
Outlander
Arcann
Act III HoT
Darth Malgus
Darth Thanaton
Exar Kun
SF Malak
Freedon Nadd
Darth Bane
Darth Ramage
Darth Tenebrous
Darth Krayt
Shioz
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on September 11th 2019, 5:29 am
DE Sidious >/~ Darth Krayt (Prime) ~ Luke Skywalker >>> UnuThul ~ RotJ Sidious >>> RotS Sidious => Yoda > Plagueis ~/> Vjun Dooku > Dooku ~ Obi-Wan => Darth Tenebrous > Maul > Ventress > Darth Ramage ~(?) Kit Fisto >>>> Darth Bane. Not sure about placing Caedus, Katarn and TOR characters.
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on September 11th 2019, 5:33 am
@Shioz wrote:DE Sidious >/~ Darth Krayt (Prime) ~ Luke Skywalker

Why?

Kit Fisto >>>> Darth Bane.

Lmao
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on September 11th 2019, 5:38 am
Luke Skywalker
Valkorion / DE Sidious
Vitiate
RotJ Sidious
UnuThul
RotS Sidious
Darth Krayt
Vaylin
Outlander
Revan
Plagueis
Darth Caedus
Vjun Dooku
SF Malak
Darth Tenebrous
Arcann
Darth Ramage
Exar Kun
Freedon Nadd
Dooku
Darth Bane
Obi Wan
Act III HoT
Maul
Darth Malgus
Kyle Katarn
Ventress
Darth Thanaton
Kit Fisto
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on September 11th 2019, 5:40 am
@The Ellimist wrote:
@Shioz wrote:DE Sidious >/~ Darth Krayt (Prime) ~ Luke Skywalker

Why?

Kit Fisto >>>> Darth Bane.

Lmao
1. Sidious above Krayt mainly due to the Databank quote, where he is served as the strongest Sith of modern times. Krayt is so high thanks to Apocalypse scaling, whose denial attempts on this forum still seem too far-fetched to me.
2. What's so funny?
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on September 11th 2019, 5:47 am
@Shioz wrote:1. Sidious above Krayt mainly due to the Databank quote, where he is served as the strongest Sith of modern times.

Frankly I think patching together different databank entries and then doing semantical analysis on the tense of the to be verb is reading too much into things; I don't take the modern times quote to definitively refer to Krayt.

Krayt is so high thanks to Apocalypse scaling, whose denial attempts on this forum still seem too far-fetched to me.

How does Apocalypse scaling establish any parity between Luke and Krayt? Firstly, the planet was a potent dark side nexus. Secondly, there's nothing in that fight that requires Krayt to be on Luke's level, aside from being strong enough that Abeloth can't ragdoll him or ignore his attacks (but Beyond Shadows how do you know the proportion? Luke was well beyond that threshold)). Luke does more in direct combat than Krayt does; it's his TK that first damages Abeloth, and it's his attack at the end that gets in the finishing blow. Are you basing it on them both being severely injured after the fight? How do you quantify how relatively injured they were except for the vague observation that they were both really hurt?

2. What's so funny?

Why is Kit Fisto so far above Bane?
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on September 11th 2019, 6:04 am
Fisto being above Bane at all is bizarre.
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on September 11th 2019, 6:38 am
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on September 11th 2019, 7:04 am
The Databank is one source, and Darth Krayt, like some other characters from the Legacy era, is present there. I do not understand why we should not take into account the superiority of Palpatine, indicated in the same source outside the universe.


What is special about Luke's telekinesis shaking Abeloth first?  Before that, they both attacked her “for a lifetime” and she ignored their attacks. Later, Krayt, just like Luke, could inflict Abeloth damage with his blows. At that moment, the damage from Krayt was greater.
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:Abeloth only seemed to sag, and it appeared that she might tumble into the water in the eternity it was taking to reach her. But that would have been too easy. Luke and the Sith stranger had been hurling Force attacks at her for a lifetime-or perhaps it was a mere eyeblink-and this was the first time she had shown any reaction.

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:He pivoted around behind her, swinging one arm around her shoulder and grabbing for her chin, slipping the other arm up under hers and pressing his wrist into her neck. But grappling was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy.

Tentacles began to lash at his face, probing for his nose and ears and mouth. A pair of gray tips shot into view, blurring and growing large. Luke closed both eyes and turned away, but not quickly enough. The right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head.

The tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab.
After that, Abeloth cannot push Krayt by Force. I will even emphasize the following: "He held tight. So did luke". Krayt is literally compared to Skywalker. And "Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke". It doesn’t mention the same wounds, Krayt really does the same damage as Luke. In the end, we have an indication of their identical wounds after the battle.  The same wounds received after the same damage from Abeloth.
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:Abeloth loosed a Force blast, trying to drive the stranger off. He held tight. So did Luke, and all three went tumbling across the lake in a snarled mass of limbs and tentacles.

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed-the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:The tattooed man stopped and whirled, and Luke found himself preparing to dodge a fork of Force lightning. But the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke, and Luke could see that his entire form was shuddering. Instead of attacking, the Sith just stood staring at them, one eye shining yellow and the other an empty socket, his right arm a useless ghost of a limb.
According to the result:

  • Darth Krayt withstands Abeloth's attacks as well as Luke.
  • Krayt and Luke take the same damage from Abeloth attacks.
  • They got the same wounds.  Specifically, this paragraph may not be conclusive evidence, but it is related to the second.

The author has compared Luke and Krayt three times in direct text, and two of the three comparisons relate directly to their Force power. After these things, I see absolutely no point in denying parity between Luke and such a Krayt. The only thing I can agree with is the possible impact of nexus. However, Krayt, even without him, should not lag behind Luke and the weakened Abelot so much as to be rubbish like UnuThul or Caedus (relatively). I do not insist on the parity of Luke and Krayt (without nexus) in FotJ, but I'm still sure that they are on the same tier. It should be borne in mind that Krayt even then was weakened by parasites, although not by far as much as in Legacy. After the rebirth, Krayt became stronger than ever and was at the peak of his power, surpassing himself in FotJ.


I put Fisto above Bane because:

  • Banite scaling can put Bane much lower than even mid tiers PT.
  • Scaling from Yarael Poof and his feat.

If you want, we could discuss this in more detail a bit later.
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on September 12th 2019, 4:20 am
@Shioz wrote:The Databank is one source, and Darth Krayt, like some other characters from the Legacy era, is present there. I do not understand why we should not take into account the superiority of Palpatine, indicated in the same source outside the universe.

Is the Databank "one source"? It's clearly written by a number of people, and we're pasting together the specific tense of different entries and pretending "In modern times" has to refer to events after Sidious as well because some other entry references Krayt in the past tense.

Regardless, I would agree that DE Sidious > Krayt.

What is special about Luke's telekinesis shaking Abeloth first?  Before that, they both attacked her “for a lifetime” and she ignored their attacks.

It's possible that Luke just got lucky, but it modestly shifts the probability in favor of Luke being the greater contributor, since he was either attacking with more power or throwing out more attacks, or both.

Later, Krayt, just like Luke, could inflict Abeloth damage with his blows. At that moment, the damage from Krayt was greater.
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:He pivoted around behind her, swinging one arm around her shoulder and grabbing for her chin, slipping the other arm up under hers and pressing his wrist into her neck. But grappling was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy.

Tentacles began to lash at his face, probing for his nose and ears and mouth. A pair of gray tips shot into view, blurring and growing large. Luke closed both eyes and turned away, but not quickly enough. The right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head.

The tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab.

In other words, Luke is facing Abeloth head on and Krayt steps in from the side. It's a tactically helpful move, but attacking while Abeloth is preoccupied hardly compares to Luke being the one to take her on.

After that, Abeloth cannot push Krayt by Force. I will even emphasize the following: "He held tight. So did luke". Krayt is literally compared to Skywalker.

How does the fact that they both held on do much to establish parity between them, except that they broadly fall in the camp of "combatants who can hold onto Abeloth"? How wide or narrow do you think that category is?

And "Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke". It doesn’t mention the same wounds, Krayt really does the same damage as Luke.

That was in direct reference to Krayt's Force drain. Where does it say Krayt did the same damage?

In the end, we have an indication of their identical wounds after the battle.  The same wounds received after the same damage from Abeloth.

Where does it say they have "identical" wounds? That they both have difficulty standing after unequal contributions is not at all an exact comparison. If a random person and a pro MMA fighter both got shot in the leg, it wouldn't be easy to tell who was the better fighter by analyzing their injuries.

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:
Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:The tattooed man stopped and whirled, and Luke found himself preparing to dodge a fork of Force lightning. But the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke, and Luke could see that his entire form was shuddering. Instead of attacking, the Sith just stood staring at them, one eye shining yellow and the other an empty socket, his right arm a useless ghost of a limb.

"no better shape" is pretty vague and actually doesn't suggest that Krayt wasn't in worse shape.

The only thing I can agree with is the possible impact of nexus. However, Krayt, even without him, should not lag behind Luke and the weakened Abelot so much as to be rubbish like UnuThul or Caedus (relatively).

How do you know that? Abeloth's planet is described as an unimaginably potent nexus to the point where the Lost Tribe Sith are scared to even draw on it.

What we have is that:

  • Luke's TK dealt the first blow on Abeloth.
  • Luke was attacking Abeloth head on while Krayt went in from the side.
  • Krayt's main contribution came from a dark side drain technique.
  • When Luke started getting drained by Krayt, he was no more than annoyed by it, as though it were another cliche.
  • In the end, Abeloth stopped Krayt's last attack while Luke's final attack dealt the killing blow.


At best for Krayt, it's ambiguous and suggests that he's at least still a relevant combatant in relation to the other two (but that's very far from parity). But to put peak Krayt ~ Luke is a pretty extraordinary claim given that if you looked elsewhere from Apocalypse, there wouldn't even be a conversation. Looking at Krayt's actual feats at his peak, he doesn't even come close.

It would also have you putting DE Sidious > Luke even though Luke just needed battle meditation from a barely trained Leia to win when he was far, far, far from his prime.


I put Fisto above Bane because:

  • Banite scaling can put Bane much lower than even mid tiers PT.
  • Scaling from Yarael Poof and his feat.

If you want, we could discuss this in more detail a bit later.

I think that largely depends on how big the gap between Sidious and the tier 7/8's is.
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on September 12th 2019, 5:29 am
@The Ellimist wrote:It's possible that Luke just got lucky, but it modestly shifts the probability in favor of Luke being the greater contributor, since he was either attacking with more power or throwing out more attacks, or both.
I do not think that Luke attacked more than once, otherwise it would have been noted. Both of them attacked Abeloth for a long time. Perhaps Luke’s attack was simply the last before Abeloth finally lost, and Krayt would have done the same if he had attacked faster than Luke at that moment. It is also possible that Luke just at that moment squeezed out more power than usual, but I do not think that this option is correct, because before that he did not need to restrain himself in the fight against Abeloth. Moreover, if this is so, then all previous attacks by Luke and Krayt were simply useless, although the context indicates that it was their long-term attacks that finally brought results.

In other words, Luke is facing Abeloth head on and Krayt steps in from the side. It's a tactically helpful move, but attacking while Abeloth is preoccupied hardly compares to Luke being the one to take her on.

I just noted that Krayt’s attack did Abeloth more damage, although both Luke and Krayt hit her.

How does the fact that they both held on do much to establish parity between them, except that they broadly fall in the camp of "combatants who can hold onto Abeloth"? How wide or narrow do you think that category is?
The author compares the stability of Krayt with Luke.  There would be no problem if “they both held well,” or if it had been written separately about Krayt. Even if they were just fighters of the same level (given the noticeable superiority of Luke), the difference between them would still exist (including their stamina), and there would be no need to say that Krayt is holding as well as Luke. The writing here is nothing more than a direct comparison.
That was in direct reference to Krayt's Force drain. Where does it say Krayt did the same damage?
Both of them received the same damage from drain. At the same time, Luke had to restrain Abelot, and Krayt drain her, causing damage to himself. Krayt’s actions seriously affected Abelot’s avatars, and without him, Luke could never have defeated her. I do not see that the impact from Luke was greater.

Where does it say they have "identical" wounds? That they both have difficulty standing after unequal contributions is not at all an exact comparison. If a random person and a pro MMA fighter both got shot in the leg, it wouldn't be easy to tell who was the better fighter by analyzing their injuries.
Krayt received the same wound in his chest as Luke, remaining on his feet, and their condition at the time the battle was over was the same. In any case, the first comparison still emphasizes the comparability of Luke and Krayt, and the fight itself did not make me feel that this was not so. FotJ Krayt even considering the nexus = Luke. As for the nexus, a multiple increase in power in this case could only give font of power, but there is not a hint in the text that Krayt used it, and if that were the case, they would not have been ignored. In addition, I agree that Luke FotJ > base Krayt FotJ, but there is no significant gap between them. On the other hand, Krayt got rid of the parasites and became stronger than ever after the resurrection, and I do not see the discrepancy of his feats to the Luke-tier at that moment.

It would also have you putting DE Sidious > Luke even though Luke just needed battle meditation from a barely trained Leia to win when he was far, far, far from his prime.
Yes, I completely agree that Luke >> Sidious in saber. Also, Darth Sidious was also a pre-prime in the first part of DE.
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on September 16th 2019, 4:01 am
I recently posted a blog on this.

@Shioz wrote:I do not think that Luke attacked more than once, otherwise it would have been noted. Both of them attacked Abeloth for a long time. Perhaps Luke’s attack was simply the last before Abeloth finally lost, and Krayt would have done the same if he had attacked faster than Luke at that moment. It is also possible that Luke just at that moment squeezed out more power than usual, but I do not think that this option is correct, because before that he did not need to restrain himself in the fight against Abeloth. Moreover, if this is so, then all previous attacks by Luke and Krayt were simply useless, although the context indicates that it was their long-term attacks that finally brought results.

It's possible that Luke got lucky, but it's not certain. That he was able to get the hit in makes it ever slightly more likely that he was firing more blasts over that period of time and/or more powerful ones, because that would make it more likely that Luke would be the one to take advantage of Abeloth's durability falling below a certain threshold.

Luke also gets to Abeloth first after she's rocked, and then later happens to be the one who gets through her tentacles to land the killing blow whereas Krayt was immobilized by said tentacles - are these all coincidences? In either case, the burden of proof would lie with you here because I'm not using the Apocalypse fight as an active case for Luke > Krayt (though it may suggest that) but rather saying that it doesn't establish Krayt ~(or close to) Luke.

I just noted that Krayt’s attack did Abeloth more damage, although both Luke and Krayt hit her.

Did he? That's not clear in the text, and if it's true it would clearly be influenced by the fact that Abeloth was actively wrestling Luke whereas Krayt hit her while she was preoccupied. Why couldn't, say, Yoda have done that?

The author compares the stability of Krayt with Luke.  There would be no problem if “they both held well,” or if it had been written separately about Krayt. Even if they were just fighters of the same level (given the noticeable superiority of Luke), the difference between them would still exist (including their stamina), and there would be no need to say that Krayt is holding as well as Luke. The writing here is nothing more than a direct comparison.

It just says they both held tight, because that's what they did. What would you expect the narrator to say if Krayt were far less powerful (but still able to hold on)? "He held tight. Luke held even tighter" wouldn't even suggest that Luke was more powerful - he could've just been gripping harder for whatever reason. "He held tight. Luke held even tighter because he was so much stronger"? The options sound awkward and aren't necessary to the flow of the story.

If a passage shows two characters getting Force pushed and says "He went flying. So did she." does that seriously establish that they're somehow comparable?

Both of them received the same damage from drain. At the same time, Luke had to restrain Abelot, and Krayt drain her, causing damage to himself. Krayt’s actions seriously affected Abelot’s avatars, and without him, Luke could never have defeated her. I do not see that the impact from Luke was greater.

Even if Luke "could never have defeated her" without Krayt, how can you quantify the relative impact of Luke holding onto Abeloth and Krayt draining her? If anything, whereas Luke had been able to grapple with Abeloth in previous fights, were Krayt to try to drain Abeloth without someone restraining her, he would've gotten smashed in pretty quickly. Even if you could establish that Krayt's contribution was comparable, it would be due to a dark side technique, not parity in overall power.

Krayt received the same wound in his chest as Luke, remaining on his feet, and their condition at the time the battle was over was the same.

There isn't nearly enough detail to conclude that. They were both really injured (though Krayt fell down first) and had trouble walking - but see my analogy, that's not really precise. Should the text have said "the stranger was also limping, but he wasn't as powerful as Luke so he was limping even harder"?

Yes, I completely agree that Luke >> Sidious in saber. Also, Darth Sidious was also a pre-prime in the first part of DE.

Where does it say Sidious was pre-prime as of him losing to Luke? And where's the evidence that Sidious could've overpowered that Luke with Force attacks other than Force storms? Sources note that he was outright overpowered, and the Force storm was his last resort.

It should also be noted that Luke was injured throughout most of FotJ and had fought intense battles against Abeloth and multiple Sith earlier in Apocalypse. You can argue that any injuries wouldn't transfer to Beyond Shadows, but this would lesson the gap between FotJ and Reborn Krayt.
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on September 16th 2019, 11:33 am
Luke > DE Sidious > Valkorion > ROTJ Sidious > ROTS Sidious > Outlander ~ Vaylin ~ Vitiate > Vjunn Dooku ~ Plagueis > Revan > Tenebrous > Darth Krayt ~ Dooku > Arcann > Obi-Wan Kenobi (Mustafar) >> Malgus > act 3 HoT > Ventress > SF Malak > Thanaton.


Not sure about the rest and some of these are tentative placements.
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on September 16th 2019, 12:33 pm
@BreakofDawn

Obi-Wan Kenobi (Mustafar) >> Malgus > act 3 HoT > Ventress > SF Malak

That's some suspect insight.
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on September 16th 2019, 12:38 pm
@Shioz wrote: Dooku ~ Obi-Wan 
No
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on September 16th 2019, 12:47 pm
Rank these characters in Force power 1289255181 Dooku ragdolled Kenobi. He's clearly far more powerful.
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on September 16th 2019, 12:54 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Shioz wrote: Dooku ~ Obi-Wan 
No

Yeah he is actually
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on September 16th 2019, 12:59 pm
@LOTL

No, he isn't. Taking singular passages, omitting all context to said passages and ignoring the rest of the fight doesn't make for a convincing argument. Fact is, Dooku has dismissed Kenobi with TK twice when he felt it prudent to do so, establishing a substantial difference in their combative capabilities.


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on September 16th 2019, 12:59 pm
@LOTL wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Shioz wrote: Dooku ~ Obi-Wan 
No

Yeah he is actually
You could try to brush off the IH fight as a case of Kenobi getting surprised but that's looking at the fight as an isolated event. when you look at the overall history in their fights and how Kenobi gets routinely ragdolled throughout the CW its pretty obvious it was a case of actual ragdolling.
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on September 16th 2019, 1:00 pm
There's also no evidence it was a surprise attack.
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on September 16th 2019, 1:06 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:@BreakofDawn

Obi-Wan Kenobi (Mustafar) >> Malgus > act 3 HoT > Ventress > SF Malak

That's some suspect insight.
Obi-Wan was one of the tentative placements.

Also, lol at Obi-Wan being around as powerful as Dooku.
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on September 16th 2019, 1:10 pm
@BreakofDawn

Obi-Wan was one of the tentative placements.

He's not even the main problem. Having any of these buffoons ("Malgus, Act 3 HoT, Ventress")  as > SF Malak is the main issue. Also, having Malgus > Act 3 HoT is suspect. Personally, I'd make it look like this:

SF Malak>Kenobi>Act 3 HoT>Ventress>Malgus (final two could be swapped around).


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on September 16th 2019, 1:10 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@LOTL wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@Shioz wrote: Dooku ~ Obi-Wan 
No

Yeah he is actually
You could try to brush off the IH fight as a case of Kenobi getting surprised but that's looking at the fight as an isolated event. when you look at the overall history in their fights and how Kenobi gets routinely ragdolled throughout the CW its pretty obvious it was a case of actual ragdolling.

Dooku has never ragdolled him before. He tried to in S6 and didn't succeed.

As a general rule, the force barrier is not broken unless explicitly mentioned and people keep force pushing/throwing each other literally all across that show by taking literally, we would literally get absolutely absurd scaling chains so no, none of what you mention is actual ragdolling, just surprise attacks
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on September 16th 2019, 1:12 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@NotAA3 wrote:@BreakofDawn

Obi-Wan Kenobi (Mustafar) >> Malgus > act 3 HoT > Ventress > SF Malak

That's some suspect insight.
Obi-Wan was one of the tentative placements.

Also, lol at Obi-Wan being around as powerful as Dooku.

Tf lol?

I firmly believe he(Kenobi) is more powerful and my belief is becoming stronger. I can get why people think Dooku>Kenobi but saying he is vastly more powerful is just not correct
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on September 16th 2019, 1:15 pm
@LOTL

Dooku has never ragdolled him before. He tried to in S6 and didn't succeed.

Kenobi would have been killed if not for Anakin lmao, though I'm not sure I'd call that Force Choke "ragdolling". It still shows there is a massive gap between them regardless, however.

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