Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

SWTOR Comic: Threat of Peace:

SWTOR:

SWTOR:

SWTOR JK Act 3:

Legacy Cade :

Wyyrlock:

Skywalker Accolades:

Legacy era stats:

KOTOR Stats:

Legacy Krayt and Roan Fel:

Bastila:

Satele:

Great Galactic War:

Angral Superiority:

The Hero of Tython

The Old Republic, Orgus Din wrote:“The Force is strong in you. Stronger than I've seen in decades.”

The Old Republic, Bengel Morr wrote:“You are stronger than any Jedi I have known.”

The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side.

Lord Scourge Codex Entry wrote:As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title “the Emperor’s Wrath.

The Old Republic wrote:You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress.

The Old Republic wrote:The spirit of Master Orgus explained that during your confrontation with the Emperor, your mind was dominated, and you were temporarily turned to the dark side by his power. You’ve recovered your senses, but the Sith still believe you to be a slave to the Emperor’s will. Overseer Chaskar arrived to continue your training in the ways of the Sith.

The Old Republic, Darth Acina wrote:"They are the only surviving work of the Empire's greatest alchemist, Lord Fulminiss. A Jedi Knight on Voss deprived us of his genius."

Bastila Shan

Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:Bastila Shan is the quintessential Jedi: trained from a very young age and gifted with a natural ability with the Force that has given her both renown and considerable pride.

Knights of the Old Republic, Carth Onasi wrote:"But Bastila's young, and she has a powerful command of the Force."

The Grand Master

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Regarding your point of Lord Fulminiss, I completely disagree with the idea that someone who can challenge Act III HoT to be below Darth Angral, especially since that would necessitate that Act I HoT to be above his Act III self, despite him being far more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable in the Force."

Hero:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act I HoT defeated Darth Angral, and right after had to defeat Kira while she was possessed by the Emperor. Kira’s help against Angral would be minimal, since the Hero was already the strongest Jedi Orgus/Morr had ever seen, and only grew after said statement."

Kira Aid:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then is selected as one of the Jedi to go after the Emperor, each Jedi of this strike team are the most powerful of the Order."

Strike Team:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then stalemates Lord Scourge in a duel, Scourge who was the Emperor’s personal executioner (who should be well above Angral)"

Nexus:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT fails to stop the Emperor, becomes a Sith Lord and trains for months in the dark side."

Trauma:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then, despite all these showings and growth, Scourge believes that Lord Fulminiss is a threat to an Act III Hero, who is exponentially above Act I Hero."

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unreasonable to believe that Lord Fulminiss, the greatest Sorcerer of the Empire, is below Darth Baras Pre-ToC. He not only has a supremacy quote over every sorcerer in the Empire, but also is a threat to a far more powerful Hero (who himself is the most powerful Jedi in decades)."

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Despite him training for far more time than Anakin Skywalker, and despite being a part of the same family that had some of the greatest potentials ever, he still was only on par with S1 Anakin per stats."

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila had already mastered fighting styles and one of the most difficult Force techniques by her Padawan years, and only grew with time after becoming a Jedi Knight, she isn’t less masterful than Satele, as she had already showed a natural affinity with the Force and mastered several techniques by that point."

War Growth:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"So Bastila isn’t far below Satele Shan. There is no definitive proof that binds Bastila below Satele."

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Asajj Ventress, of all enemies ever faced by the Jedi, was second only to Dooku. That caps DS Bastila, who was way more powerful than her LS self"

Disagreements:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then K’Kruhk is selected as the Grand Master of the Order, which is a title bestowed upon the greatest of all masters."

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unclear whether Satele surpasses Bastila or not, as the former is seen as a legendary figure by SWTOR’s time"

Malgus Wojak:

Book of the Sith:

Book of Anger:

Scourge

Plag wrote:All that this means is that there is context behind why Fulminiss is a threat. Likewise, you must provide some measure of evidence to support a large gap between Act 1 and Act 3 Hero.

Quotes wrote:"He's sending his personal executioner for me. His wrath incarnate. I'll be punished for my crimes."
"Who is the Emperor's Wrath? A Sith Lord?"
"A ghost. Older than anyone except the Emperor himself. Even the Dark Council fears him."

-- Sajar and the Hero of Tython, The Old Republic

"Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title, “the Emperor’s Wrath.”

-- Lord Scourge Codex Entry, The Old Republic

"After Lord Scourge shed the mantle of the Wrath under mysterious circumstances, the Emperor's Hand set out to find a replacement. Millions of the galaxy's most powerful Sith were considered, but ultimately only one would prove worthy to serve the Emperor."

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

"As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.”

-- Lord Scourge Entry, The Old Republic

"Entire generations of the Sith Dark Council have passed under the watchful eyes of the Emperor's personal executioner, the grim Lord Scourge. As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. Conspiracy theories held that Scourge was a title rather than a man, for even pureblooded Sith are mortal... However, the Dark Council knew the truth. There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhance by the Emperor."
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Scourge was an expert swordsman; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

Captain Yarri’s skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge’s attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form.

Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.

The fact that Revan hadn’t come to their aid told Scourge that the Jedi had gone to confront the Emperor, conjuring up images from Scourge’s vision of him lying broken and beaten on the floor at the Emperor’s feet.

Yarri’s staff slipped through his defenses and clipped him on his right shoulder. Scourge’s armor absorbed the worst of the blow, though he felt a painful jolt from the electrostaff’s charge that made his hand and arm tingle.

Even as Scourge cursed himself for allowing thoughts of his vision to distract him, he deftly switched his blade from his temporarily numb right hand to his left. The move was dangerous; it left him momentarily vulnerable as he made the switch. Fortunately his opponents were unprepared for the unorthodox tactic, and neither was able to take advantage.

While he and Meetra fought the quartet of guards, T3-M4 was busy sealing the doors. The droid was spraying black foam along the edge where the double doors came together. Scourge recognized the foam as a powerful contact adhesive commonly used to repair starships; seconds after being exposed to air it would harden into a substance that could be cut only with a plasma torch.

Yarri’s blade nearly caught him again, narrowly missing his cheek, and Scourge swore out loud. If he didn’t stay focused on the fight, his vision of the Emperor killing him wouldn’t even have a chance to come true....

Scourge pressed his attack, calling on the dark side to transform his uncertainty and fear into white-hot rage. He felt the power coursing through him, the spark of fury deep inside him igniting into a firestorm of death and destruction.

Left-handed, Scourge unleashed a pair of savage chops at Yarri’s partner, using raw brute strength to overpower his physically weaker opponent. The guard parried the blows, but the first knocked him off balance and the second sent him stumbling backward.

While the guard struggled to recover, Scourge focused his assault on the captain. Yarri sensed the shift in her opponent too late to switch back to a more defensive form, and the Sith Lord was quick to exploit the tactical flaw.

A four-move sequence overwhelmed Yarri, causing her to leave her right flank unprotected. Scourge seized the opportunity, his blade biting deep into her hip. Yarri screamed, dropped her blade, and fell to the ground. The other guard leapt to her defense, recklessly throwing himself between his fallen captain and Scourge. The only reward for his effort was a quick death, delivered by a diagonal lightsaber slash across his chest.

At Scourge’s feet, Yarri fumbled to reclaim her weapon. The agony of her wound made her desperate and clumsy, giving Scourge time to relish her suffering. As her fingers wrapped around the hilt of her electrostaff, he brought his boot down on top of her hand, crushing the bones.

He stared into the captain’s eyes one last time, savoring her terror before decapitating her with a single stroke.

-- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

(Note that it’s pre-Act II Scourge, and he beat soldiers who even the Dark Council feared)



-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

TP

Quotes wrote:



-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia













-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

(Aayla willingly submitting to Karkko's influence, which makes it easier)



-- Fact File 98

Quotes wrote:

(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)

Extremly skilled in both Sith alchemy and the manipulation of Yuuzhan Vong bioengineering, Darth Maladi is very much a student of science as well as mysticism.

-- Legacy Campaign Guide

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side.

-- Dark Side Sourcebook

Quotes wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”

-- John Ostrander



-- Legacy Campaign Guide



-- The Clone Wars Campaign Guide

Plag wrote:Cool, half of the team is shown to be pathetic and Kira has scaling in resisting the Emperor's control far better than any of the strike team does.

Plag wrote:Neither Baras nor Angral are sorcerers, nor are they alchemists. Nothing that you've cited goes against Sel-Makor calling Baras a "greater Sith" than Fulminiss.

Plag wrote:Kol's stats are higher than S1 Anakin's in key areas such as Force (7 vs 6), Use The force, 2 extra Jedi ranks (2 Jedi Master vs 2 pilot), etc. This should suggest that Kol is a greater Force user than S1 Anakin. In contrast to the Shan bloodline, we know that while all Skywalkers are strong in the Force, there are still big gaps in potential. In fact, Satele is a descendant of two legendary Force users, and thus also inherits some of Revan's power.

Galactic Files wrote:


”That doesn’t explain the focus on Ben,’ Kyle said, ‘if it was just a matter of being a Force-user, Abeloth could have taken Valin or Jysella—or one of her Sith servants—just as easily. It’s something else . . . something that makes Ben special.
‘Well, he is a Skywalker,’ Kyp Durron pointed out. ‘The grandson of the Chosen One.’
‘And Jaina is a granddaughter of the Chosen One,’ Luke countered. ‘I’m more inclined to think it has something to do with Shelter. Maybe Abeloth just wants him because he withdrew from her touch when he was a toddler.’
Kyp shook his head. ‘Sorry, but no,’ he said. ‘Jaina is Han’s daughter just as much as Leia’s, and that means only one parent is a Force-user. Ben is the son of two parents who were very strong in the Force. No offense to Jaina, but Ben has Special Destiny written all over him.’
Luke’s face fell, and Jaina could tell by the silence that followed that he saw the wisdom of Kyp’s suggestion—as did everyone else at the table. Abeloth had gone after Ben because of what Ben was . . . and that meant she had something special in mind for him.”

-- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

(Jaina lesser than Ben -> reason that Ben was born from two Force users -> Anakin Solo was born from only one Force user)

As his Jedi uncle Luke Skywalker watches his growth, Anakin doesn’t realise he may have the strongest Force powers of his lineage.

-- Star Wars: 1996 Finest #41 Anakin Solo

Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.

-- Anakin Solo Databank

The youngest of Han and Leia Solo’s children. All three Solo offspring are strong in the ways of the Force, although Anakin is especially gifted and may one day become the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known.

-- Star Wars: Behind the Magic

Inheriting his mother’s and his grandfather’s Force abilities, Anakin Solo had the potential to become the greatest Jedi of his generation.

-- Star Wars Fact File #114

The Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:







-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia: Volume III

Plag wrote:Within the S-canon realm, Bastila's stats are well above both K'kruhk and Asajj Ventress.

Wizards of the Coast wrote:Q: Is Wizards of the Coast ever going to release an "Epic Level Handbook" for the Star Wars Roleplaying Game?

A: Wizards has announced no intention to do so. The major stumbling blocks are that the most powerful characters in the Star Wars universe are themselves 20th level. Some people see that as a mistake, though, saying that characters like Yoda, the Emperor, Mace Windu, Darth Vader, and Luke Skywalker (circa The New Jedi Order era) should be higher level. There's a certain amount of logic to that argument, but not enough to justify a sourcebook to support a handful of nonplayer characters.

Many people who ask about an epic-level sourcebook for Star Wars really just want to have characters advance beyond 20th level. But nothing in the revised core rulebook says that you absolutely can't; it's your campaign, after all. Just extend Table 3-1: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits; the progression is fairly clear.

If, on the other hand, what you really want are epic-level feats, you're probably best served by simply converting feats from the Epic Level Handbook for Dungeons & Dragons.

-- Source

Plag wrote:In addition, it is clear that there are several characters that are not meant to be bound below Ventress, and some even by Dooku. Suffice to say, this singular quote is an outlier and is the dissenting opinion.

Plag wrote:So Darth Malgus, a confirmed inferior of the Sith Lord Darth Angral, was not only the key to Palpatine's "ultimate power" but he also greatly impressed Palpatine in terms of both knowledge and power. This in itself should support the notion of Angral > Malgus > Asajj, if not have Malgus over even more PT era combatants.

Charles Boyd wrote:







"Revan should be like Yoda or something. You almost never have a movie about Yoda or a show. There are a few episodes in the Clone Wars that are about Yoda. Yoda mostly just shows up and just is awesome and then moves on and then the other characters are just left dealing with it right. That's the way you use Revan."

-- Charles Boyd

What is a Sith Warrior? wrote:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I will first look at Scourge to explain the gap. He is pretty much above every other Sith in the Empire, where even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear him, he was specifically tasked to execute the most powerful Sith/Jedi that rose in the galaxy, and after Scourge fled, the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire were considered to become the Wrath, yet no one was chosen."

Sith Warrior Act III:

Voss:

Scourge:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is self-evident that Scourge is above the Dark Council, which should put him above Angral too. After all, he is Vitiate’s personal executioner."

Scourge sucks:

Fate of the Jedi:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Yet, on a powerful DS Nexus, the HoT stalemates him. If HoT is going from Sub-Angral to on par, or above, the Wrath, it is unlikely that he didn’t have immense growth. Also, the Wrath says the Hero is “the finest” of the Jedi, being above Kira, who you showed had growth from Act I to II. Scourge’s comments also put him above the Jedi who “grew too powerful” that the Wrath had to execute, which cements the idea of a parity between the two."

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Fulminiss is also using his TP powers on people who are willingly to become subdued, as is shown in the Healing Shrine (the healers didn’t expect him to do that/it's also a place of "ancient power"), and his apprentices (who are fodder and wouldn’t fight back). The ritual he would perform is also made on a mega potent DS Nexus."

Book of the Sith:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)"

Doctor Isen:

Doctor Isen:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Not sure why any of these quotes are relevant? The quotes still say they are the best of the Order, that would only put a growth Kira above them, and Hero above Kira."

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only."

AaylaSecurafan87 wrote:"Funny thing is that Kol is possibly the son of Ben Skywalker, who is hinted to be stronger in the Force than Anakin, who was already above Luke in potential. Being the son of someone with Luke+ potential, gives the descendant a lot of potential too, especially since Ben was romantically involved with another Force user. My point is about Anakin being close to Kol at that point, your logic needs to Kol to be far above, which isn’t the case."

Troy Denning:

Fate of the Jedi:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It’s evident that potential won’t indicate that the characters are on the same power level/above after a x amount of time, because if that were so, Kol Skywalker (who is the son of someone with Luke+ potential) should be well above S1 Anakin, and not put on the same challenge level as him (CL is credited as the difficulty of the fight, and Kol and Anakin share the same level). In fact, Kol fought a three-year war against the Imperial/Sith Forces, which, as you’ve shown, makes characters powerful."

Pre-S1 Anakin's War Exploits:

Meme:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila’s stats are outdated. The character level in Saga never surpasses 20, as those that are in that level are “the most powerful”; and WOTC never showed any hint to change this. So, had Saga extended to SWTOR, characters’ stats would be changed to accommodate the new additions, Bastila’s stats should only count to 2009"

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"The first quote is about gameplay; the Nihilus quotes means nothing, Ventress can still be above; Karness’ spirit didn’t fight the Jedi Order as a whole (which is what the quote references); those are 2011 scans, Ventress doesn’t bind them; Nadd quote is pre-TOTJ era only; Vader quote is about training; I doubt that Revan quote has greater LFL involvement than the successor to Fact Files."

Muur:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Malgus being impressive per Sidious isn’t a bind to the PT characters, especially Ventress, who Sidious even fears her growth in power. The quote about his feats could fall into his military strategy prowess. Especially when Yoda is compared to SoR Revan in combat (although not a bind it shows that the intention for high level PT characters isn’t to be below ToC Malgus/likewise, the gap between Yoda and Ventress is not as big as the gap between Revan and ToC Malgus)."

Legacy:

Legacy:

Knowledge:

Dynasty of Evil:

Sorcery:

Dynasty of Evil:

Zannah:

Spies:

Jaesa Wilsaam:

Spy:

Boyd:

John Ostrander wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”

Legacy:

Imprisoned:

Imprisoned:

Melicoste:

Baras:

Counters

Plagsus wrote:It is factually incorrect that nobody was chosen to become the new Emperor's Wrath. Let us take a look at the Second Emperor's Wrath.

Plagsus wrote:Seems clear to me that the Emperor's Hand, SWTORE, Second Wrath, etc all acknowledge members of the Dark Council being genuine threats to the Wrath in a fight. Before you claim that Scourge is simply superior, I find it unlikely...

HoT:

Plagsus wrote:So the Wrath faced a large portion of the Voice's power, controlled by Sel-Makor. Scourge on the other hand.

The Emperor:

Plagsus wrote:Yet Scourge is already admitting that Fulminiss and his apprentices are a threat to an individual that is a greater combatant than him.

Plagsus wrote:Shrine amps Voss, don't see any of those people as "willing".

Plagsus wrote:Likewise, I am sure that you are aware that a similar situation allowed for 6 random Sith sabers to give Luke and Jaina difficulty.

Luke Skywalker:

Plagsus wrote:Yet despite his skills in alchemy, his status as a non-warrior has led to him being of lower value and being unworthy of the title of "Darth".

Maladi:

Plagsus wrote:Love to see another one jump on the Ben brigade. Ben and Vestara NOT having children is a LFL mandate btw. Funny you should mention Ben, we know for a fact that his growth and training were seriously stunted. Likewise there are scarce details on Kol's history and early life, which leaves us unaware of if there was a similar situation for him.

Nat and Kol:

Kol:

Plagsus wrote:This does not mean that Bastila's stats are outdated.

Plagsus wrote:You try calling the Malgus quote "autistic" but want to argue Ventress > world eater. Palpatine being impressed by both Malgus' Force mastery and his battlefield performances are meaningful, and does mean that Malgus would scale high within the PT.

Ventress:

Plagsus wrote:We see that Wyyrlock relied on Andeddu's own fears in order to defeat him telepathically.

Andeddu vs Wyyrlok:

Andeddu's Lightning:

Andeddu's advantage:

Wyyrlok's knowledge:

Plagsus wrote:Angral > Fulminiss >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock

Zannah vs Bane:

Zannah's growth:

Wyyrlok's power:

The Malevolence Cultists:

Bane:

Plagsus wrote:Not the same level as Krayt, but still overall impressive. Being utterly exhausted after fighting 4 fodder vs effortlessly destroying 1 fodder with a gesture.
Rest of Legacy (minus Roan) <<< Krayt = crushing 4 enemies >> oneshot 1 enemy = Ekkhage << perception of Baras >/~ ToC Baras ~ Angral

Cade Skywalker

Galactic Files:

Miniatures:

Vong:

Reborn:

Krayt:

Revan:

Meetra:

Strength

K'Kruhk:

Character Count:

SubTalon 87 wrote:"Not really what I wanted to say but, yes, the SW becomes the next Wrath, but up until that point, no one else was chosen."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Them being a genuine threat doesn’t indicate that Scourge isn’t above them. My point is, Scourge is likely above the upper DC, as is HoT. From Act II to III, he has some kind of growth, as he is the only one with “the power to stop the Emperor.”"

Weight gain:

Health Problems:

Aging:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"And Scourge assumed Vitiate was returning to full power. And it’s clear that only HoT has the power to stop Vitiate (at least, by Vanilla)."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"The quote I provided very clearly states that they will help anyone that comes across them. I don’t think they would ever expect Fulminiss to use their own powers against them, which makes the feat unquantifiable, since the Voss are not prepared/resisting his direct influence."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Luke isn’t going all out in this, we know the way he uses his power is in a flux, and right after some time, Luke alone is a threat to a restored Abeloth."

Abeloth Splitting:

Fate of the Jedi Battle with Abeloth:

Luke's Injuries:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"And Isen is below Maladi, not only per his own status as a Darth, but also per Maladi’s comments."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"My bad then, but, Kol still is a “natural-born-leader”/”what folks looked for in a Skywalker”/”understood the Force in ways I [Nat] never could”, Nat is also a Skywalker, and by all means, Kol was always far stronger and gifted than Nat, if anything, the one that lacks potential is Nat. Cade is also revered by the others due to his potential, which could only come from Kol."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Don’t you agree that if, new “most powerful characters” are added, some characters would inevitably be put below them for the sake of following the canon? And then the nerf hits other characters and so on."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"But above Ventress? Heck no. Sidious even fears Ventress’ skills, her growth in power and questions if Dooku and Ventress could overthrow him. Malgus isn’t above Asajj and by extension, K’Kruhk."

Nihilus:

You knew this was coming:

LEGO:

SubTalon Fan87 response 1:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"As did Andeddu, and he utterly failed in that regard, despite being on a field of his own advantage. Wyyrlok outperforms him greatly and even deflects with ease Andeddu’s lightning. He also absorbs Andeddu’s own knowledge, and goes from being rivaled by Krayt in knowledge, to having “unparalleled” knowledge."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"I disagree with this. ROT Zannah was ragdolled by ROT Bane, and only by DoE does she show any closeness to him (which is 10 years of constant growth after RoT)."

Zannah's Sorcery:

Orbalisk:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”"

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Btw, Bane fought those cultists and easily got tired of fighting them, despite being on a DS Nexus. Wyyrlok however, easily dispatches them all, and those that he fought were Force users who “imbuing ourselves with the energy of the dark side” for over a century, now compare that to Bane’s simple humans and the feat really shows Wyyrlok’s superiority."

Bane vs Cultists:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Why should we assume that single enemy is close to one of the IKs? For all we know, the Sith could be massively below them, in any way, it’s impossible to quantify it, so the chain is in doubt and invalid."

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Cade shares parity with K’Kruhk per two different stat cards."

Sith Showdown:

Darth Revan > Krayt Mini:

Aayla's Superior:

Mandalore the Ultimate:

Triumvirate Mini:

Triumvirate (and Malak) Saga Edition:

The Entity:

Outliers:

Darth Malak:

Exile < Sion:

Exile surpassing the Triumvirate:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"This is important because Cade duels a Reborn Krayt and competes very well (as well as Vong Krayt, and Cade at that point was far from prime)."

Drugs:

Post Sith Training:

Aayla's Superior, for reference:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Same Reborn Krayt who is far above the Vong Krayt who is a lvl 20 per SAGA, as well as Darth Revan."

Revan Supremacy:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Meetra is cucking to MW Revan, and Scourge is cucking to Meetra. Scourge, as proven before, is with/above the DC."

Nyriss > Meetra:

Scourge's assessment of the Dark Council:

Dark Council Threat Accolades:

Lack of "Darth":

Meme:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"K’Kruhk’s attacks will also be very difficult for Angral to parry, let’s compare K’Kruhk’s strength to some other characters:"

Height and strength:

Meme:

Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.

Sub-Maw wrote:Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.

Lord Baras:

Darth Baras, DC and feeding from the Entity:

Sub-Maw wrote:None of this is relevant to the accolades that Sidious has granted Malgus. Likewise, this isn't evidence that Ventress is > a world eater, Malak, Revan, Bastila, etc. Even LEGO respects the power of Malgus!

Sidious:

Ventress Fights and other wank:

Sub-Maw wrote:So its unreasonable for a direct comparison of two characters to bind one character over another, but it is reasonable to use a blanket quote to bind Ventress over a ton of characters who in every other source, stats, feat comparison, etc all outshine her?

Sub-Maw wrote:Them helping people isn't the same as being open to being mentally destroyed. Likewise, the Bane quote that I had provided clearly shows that one can defend against such tricks even as they are occuring. To assume that they won't defend themselves is asinine.

Sub-Maw wrote:I am not convinced that Luke is a genuine threat there, due to how badly Luke is injured when he has a large amount of assistance against Abeloth.

Caedus:

Sub-Maw wrote:Clearly you don't understand my point. Her status as an alchemist and creator means squat for power within the One Sith.

Nihl and Maladi:

Sub-Maw wrote:Nat being worse than Kol doesn't make Kol a god. None of the quotes that you've provided are relevant to my point. The vast majority of Kol's life, training, experience is an unknown, and likewise we hear squat about his war participation.

War:

Sub-Maw wrote:This doesn't change the fact that KOTOR as an era is being written as > Legacy as an era, and thus if we lowered KOTOR we would also lower Legacy. This is not a change that would exclusively impact KOTOR.

NJO and Legacy:

STATS:

Sub-Maw wrote:My scaling is explicitly in the use of sorcery. Within this area, Zannah performs far greater than she does in blades. Likewise, Bane performs far worse in this area than he does in blades. As such, comparing how they perform in blades is not the same as how they'd perform in sorcery. Likewise, part of the gap there is the orbalisks, not Bane's own power/skill.

Dueling:

Sub-Maw wrote:This is in regards to a cultist, not Andeddu.

I wrote:As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”, performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well.

Sub-Maw wrote:Wyyrlok muses the possibility of driving them insane. The fact he doesn't would suggests that it would take far more out of him to do, while on a nexus, and while fighting self trained plebs.

Sub-Maw wrote:Bane fought for far longer and against FAR more of them, and still viewed them as "no real threat".

Sub-Maw wrote:We are even told that Orbalisk Bane would casually demolish all of Andeddu's cultists.

Sub-Maw wrote:Because nowhere are the IKs named, Ostrander suggests that they are average, and Lord Melicoste is a high ranked figure in a more impressive era.

Sub-Maw wrote:GF is as relevant as Sith Showdown! DR > Krayt! I love that miniatures has a druggie Cade (who is still working as a bounty hunter) as a more cost-expensive character than K'Kruhk. Likewise, Talon is closer to this Cade..

Bounty Hunter Cade (scans from Legacy 10 to War).:

Miniatures ranking according to CL:

Cost Level Sucks:

Attack and Defense Count Supremacy:

Sub-Maw wrote:Mandalore the Ultimate is close to Krayt in mini.

Mandalore vs Krayt:

Sub-Maw wrote:One interesting thing to note is the Sith Triumvirate's closeness to Krayt in minis.

Fanon vs Official:

Traya is not even in the game:

The Shit Triumvirate vs the Chad One Sith Emperor (Sion sub-Talon ):

Things Sub-Maw guy agrees to use in a formal debate:

DR vs Traya (Green means DR is better, Red is equal between the 2, and Blue means Kreia is better):

DARTH REVAN: SLAYER OF TRAYA:

Sub-Maw wrote:Issues that I see are Malak, who is held highly against DR elsewhere, and the Exile, who is likely pre-prime due to being below the triumvirate in mini.

Sub-Maw wrote:Darth Revan > Vong Krayt >> K'Kruhk

Krayt:

Sith Showdown:

Sub-Maw wrote:Scourge is irrelevant and we've already seen prime Meetra get her ass stomped by a DC member from the Empire 300 years before its prime.

Nexus:

Conclusion

Conclusion

Plag wrote:Aayla failed to dismiss my chains regarding Fulminiss, Ekkage, Traya, Satele, etc. Fulminiss shows that pre-ToC Baras is a powerhouse. Ekkage shows a DC member admitting inferiority to a pre-ToC Baras.

What I wrote:

Plag wrote:The vast majority of my scaling focuses on things that are relevant to Baras’ scaling as of the ToC. SWTORE and Codex both imply that Baras was a Darth by that point, and regardless, him and Angral were ~ at that point, with Angral bossing other Darths (in Malgus) around.

Plag wrote:It is irrelevant if Luke thinks that he is capable of fighting Abeloth on his own, if not long after he gets the shit beat out of him and is placed on the verge of death, while having a massive amount of assistance against her. Clearly his belief is proven incorrect.

Plag wrote:Sidious fears the aid that Ventress would bring Dooku in a fight, not on her own.

Plag wrote:I will fully admit that I made an error with miniature stats and should’ve double checked there. Regardless, there still exists the SE stat anchor that I provided, which has higher LFL vetting.

Aayla’s point with SE would just mean that we internally raise Revan, it doesn’t lower Traya or make her stats disappear.

Plag wrote:There is still more to miniature stats than just attack and defense, there is obviously a strong correlation to cost and the writer’s perceived power of a character in the game. Aayla’s argument with miniatures should instead be that miniatures sucks as an anchor, but that would kill his K’Kruhk ~ Cade ~ Reborn Krayt argument.

Plag wrote:Sith Showdown still binds Issue 1 Krayt. Likewise, miniatures holds Vong Krayt over K’Kruhk and Cade.

Plag wrote:Bane being “exhausted” by a power that Wyyrlok never shows or claims to be capable of doing is irrelevant. This is apples vs oranges.

Plag wrote:Aayla provided very little info to substantiate Kol’s war participation and degree of training, compared to a character like Satele.

Plag wrote:Aayla ignored my feat comparison of Scourge vs Wrath II, and then to Wrath II vs Baras. And the hype comparisons of DC members such as Vengean and Ekkage.

Conclusion 2

I. Plag's Arguments

A) Fulminiss Scaling

B) Shan Scaling

C) Malgus Scaling

D) Ekkage Scaling

II. Aayla's Argument

III. Conclusion