Exar Kun vs Darth Maul (TCW Season 7)

VictreebelVictr wrote:Relying on a plot tool quote that has absolutely zero support via feats is sorta screwed up in my vision.

Maul is incredible, don't get me wrong, but there is no way he is surface planetary level, like Nihilus, which you describe.

According to your idea Vaelias, Ahsoka should be > Vader. It just doesn't add up from a purely logical standpoint.

Asoka is > Vader lol

Vaelias wrote:

VictreebelVictr wrote:Relying on a plot tool quote that has absolutely zero support via feats is sorta screwed up in my vision.

Maul is incredible, don't get me wrong, but there is no way he is surface planetary level, like Nihilus, which you describe.

According to your idea Vaelias, Ahsoka should be > Vader. It just doesn't add up from a purely logical standpoint.

Asoka is > Vader lol

VictreebelVictr wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

VictreebelVictr wrote:Relying on a plot tool quote that has absolutely zero support via feats is sorta screwed up in my vision.

Maul is incredible, don't get me wrong, but there is no way he is surface planetary level, like Nihilus, which you describe.

According to your idea Vaelias, Ahsoka should be > Vader. It just doesn't add up from a purely logical standpoint.

Asoka is > Vader lol

disprove me!

@Mysteryman06

Then that would mean Legends Ahsoka is above Kun too which doesn't add up at all

I still haven't watched any of TCW S7 - including Ahsoka's fight with Maul - so I have no clue whether this is true or not. However, even if it is true, I see no issue with Ahsoka being above Kun - give me one reason why she can't be.

NotAA3 wrote:@Mysteryman06

Then that would mean Legends Ahsoka is above Kun too which doesn't add up at all

I still haven't watched any of TCW S7 - including Ahsoka's fight with Maul - so I have no clue whether this is true or not. However, even if it is true, I see no issue with Ahsoka being above Kun - give me one reason why she can't be.

Because she has shown absolutely nothing to prove that she is.

Traya>Ahsoka, and Kun>>>Traya.

Still not seeing anything but appeals to vague deadliness, Kun stomps.

Kun scales far above 2 characters with planet level (possibly even star level) feats. A padawan like Ahsoka being above him is absurd lmao.

Ahsoka galaxy buster confirmed.

Kun semi- to solidly

@VictreebelVictr

Because she has shown absolutely nothing to prove that she is.

...but her contending with TCW Darth Maul would prove that she is - given that he's confirmed as better than Kun. I asked for reasons why Ahsoka can't be above Kun, her not showing power on that level doesn't preclude her from being that high: it just makes her power level unknown. You need to provide proof she's not on that level to contradict the quote.

Traya>Ahsoka, and Kun>>>Traya.

Citation needed.

NotAA3 wrote:Citation needed.

I wasn't using any sources to support this, only that Traya's feats far surpass anything Ahsoka has ever done. Considering Kun's absolute superiority over Traya, it is simply ludicrous to think that Ahsoka would come remotely close to beating him.

NotAA3 wrote:...but her contending with TCW Darth Maul would prove that she is - given that he's confirmed as better than Kun. I asked for reasons why Ahsoka can't be above Kun, her not showing power on that level doesn't preclude her from being that high: it just makes her power level unknown. You need to provide proof she's not on that level to contradict the quote.

I personally take that quote with a huge grain of salt. The sources themselves aren't great, it is likely a plot tool, and there is no evidence whatsoever that backs them up.

Maul's greatest force feat is the hyperdrive scene in TCW season 7, which can be easily replicated by Sith Lords that have come before Maul. For example, Nihilus held the entire Ravager together (which is about 12 times larger than a Star Destroyer might I add).

It's almost as if feats are fallible and relative, accolades aren't absolute and author statements are unreliable, allowing people to cherrypick not only evidence but what type of evidence they like to use if and when it suits their agenda.

The Sith triumvirate is sub Ludo Kressh who in turn is vastly sub Kun. You could’ve used that as your evidence.

Ahsoka>>Exar Kun>Sith Triumvirate

Yeah not sure why people think this is debatable. TCW Maul's got more up to date supremacy accolades, better personal feats of things like TK/augmentation, better scaling chains thanks to stuff like TFU/OCW/Banite scaling, better Force mastery thanks to Banite Force knowledge accolades (taught all the ways of the dark side by Sheev etc and benefiary of the best possible training/teachings from objectively the most advanced, powerful and knowledgeable Sith Order in galactic history), better dueling skills and power than TPM Maul whose dueling skills > anyone during and before TPM, and also TPM Maul > any pre-Banite Sith in a combative context.

I mean with Kun being buried under the Malak quote he's essentially fucked here. And if you want to throw out supremacy quotes in order to alleviate that and get rid of Maul's supremacy quotes it becomes a feats war, where Maul benefits from scaling to beings with TK in the millions of tons range, and also having the best augmentation feats in the mythos up to his time which is an indication of Force power.

I wasn't exaggerating when I said:

The Found wrote:Maul kicks a hole through Kun's chest

To be clear:

Kun has no accolades stating he is Sidious level, these are just inferences that dumb people dumbly draw from quotes which don't actually infer that.

Kun has no way out of the Malak quote unless you throw out all accolades.

Kun doesn't have any accolades putting him above the entity known as Celeste Muurne (Morne with Muur's spirit attached to her), seeing as Kun at-best has supremacy quotes over living Muur - he has no actual connection through quotes to dead Muur attached to Celeste Morne.

Kun's supremacy quotes could easily be time-specific (unlike Maul's which are patently out-of-universe and encompassing all of history, such as the deadlier quote, which is also purely combative making it even more clear than a "more powerful" quote because it means Maul straight up is deadlier than any pre-Banite Sith regardless of their power or skills). Which means if you use accolades, you run the risk of Kun's supremacy accolades only putting him above Ulic Qel-Droma, meanwhile Maul's put him above Vitiate, who in turn is way above Malak who is above Kun.

Now, if you want to do something more akin to a meta-analysis where instead of picking feats or accolades over the other, you factor in the totality of evidence, Maul still wins.

And if you want to throw all of those out then feats are subjective and sourcebook statements aren't binding, which means you can't actually choose a winner here.

In which case I will make the contention that Maul actually exists in canon, and has non-relative, non-hyperbolic feats which are frankly comparable to Kun's medium-relative feats anyway (like Maul ripping down that giant apparatus in the recent episode, ripping a giant shuttle from a cliff while running and distracted, not able to be outright ragdolled by Sidious or Vader tier beings who have their own non-relative monstrous TK feats), meanwhile Kun simply does not exist in canon, or at least, he doesn't exist in a non-relative, non-exaggerated capacity (because all of his feats are classed as "legends" which have a dubious level of authenticity in-universe), meaning out of the two, Maul is the only one with accomplishments that aren't canonically dubious, meaning he wins by default.

Whether you choose the meta-analysis viewpoint or the canon-relativity viewpoint, you're forced to admit that while there isn't a 100% confirmed winner, the probability massively favors Maul in a statistical sense since the preponderance of evidence is in his favour.

So doing a meta-meta analysis of all methodologies (feats only, statements only, feats + statements, feats + statements meta analysis, no feats and no statements, or official 2020 canon policy), this means that the best Kun has is either a very low % chance of winning (if you go with the current canon policy methodology), or outright ambiguity (if you throw out all evidence entirely), whereas the best Maul has is outright 100% confirmation of superiority (if you go with any methodology that includes feats and/or accolades), or at least a high % likelihood of superiority based on the preponderance of evidence (any kind of meta-analysis of evidence or all methodologies).

Happy holidays!

The Found wrote:Yeah not sure why people think this is debatable.

I know right? Kun stomps. Only a moron would think otherwise.

The Found wrote:TCW Maul's got more up to date supremacy accolades,

He hasn't got any besides a possibly OOU deadlier quote from 1999.

The Found wrote:better personal feats of things like TK/augmentation,

Nice to know Force-pushing Kenobi is better than soloing the Jedi Order's combined attack. Also, Jedi Kun's augmentation on Dxun is compared to 4ABY post-ROTJ Luke, so that's not going to happen.

The Found wrote:better scaling chains thanks to stuff like TFU/OCW/Banite scaling,

Kun has ancient Sith scaling that begins with Adas >\~ prime Jinn, so have fun with that.

The Found wrote:better Force mastery thanks to Banite Force knowledge accolades (taught all the ways of the dark side by Sheev etc and benefiary of the best possible training/teachings from objectively the most advanced, powerful and knowledgeable Sith Order in galactic history),

Kun has knowledge that a Luke who was taught everything Vader knew, including the Banite knowledge, and far more, was utterly defenseless against. Try again.

The Found wrote:better dueling skills and power than TPM Maul whose dueling skills > anyone during and before TPM, and also TPM Maul > any pre-Banite Sith in a combative context.

Given Kun has legitimate claims to fame such as being > ROTJ Vader over-all as a mere Jedi or better yet, being able to teach the likes of Gantoris lightsaber skills that astonished Luke Skywalker, who is > DE Sheev as a duelist. How about no?

The Found wrote:I mean with Kun being buried under the Malak quote he's essentially fucked here.

He was never buried under anything to do with Malak, in fact Malak is buried under Kun:

Korriban, Star Wars the Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:Sith acolytes spill blood and prove their strength in the mausoleums of history's most powerful and legendary Sith Lords.

The Found wrote:where Maul benefits from scaling to beings with TK in the millions of tons range, and also having the best augmentation feats in the mythos up to his time which is an indication of Force power.

So nothing that Kun hasn't demonstratably surpassed. Cool.

The Found wrote:I wasn't exaggerating when I said:

The Found wrote:Maul kicks a hole through Kun's chest

You should've been because he's objectively inferior to Kun.

The Found wrote:To be clear:

That'd be a first.

The Found wrote:Kun has no accolades stating he is Sidious level, these are just inferences that dumb people dumbly draw from quotes which don't actually infer that.

Ah so eight canon statements are dumb because ILS doesn't like them.

The Found wrote:Kun has no way out of the Malak quote unless you throw out all accolades.

Yes, he does. It's 2021 catch up.

The Found wrote:Kun doesn't have any accolades putting him above the entity known as Celeste Muurne (Morne with Muur's spirit attached to her), seeing as Kun at-best has supremacy quotes over living Muur - he has no actual connection through quotes to dead Muur attached to Celeste Morne.

Ignoring the plethora of reasons why Kun dwarfs Muur into absurdity, Kun's comparisons to Sheev make it pretty obvious that the Muurne Luke encountered in Vector is laughably sub-Kun and probably Ragnos.

The Found wrote:Kun's supremacy quotes could easily be time-specific

I like how you've proved that, not even once.

The Found wrote:(unlike Maul's which are patently out-of-universe and encompassing all of history,

The DK one is literally IU and the other one might be too.

The Found wrote:such as the deadlier quote, which is also purely combative making it even more clear than a "more powerful" quote because it means Maul straight up is deadlier than any pre-Banite Sith regardless of their power or skills).

Given the many reasons why Kun's lightsaber skills, power, knowledge and augmentative abilities dwarf Maul's. As seen above. I'm gonna say your one quote doesn't beat the vastly more amounts of quotes that contradict it.

The Found wrote:Which means if you use accolades, you run the risk of Kun's supremacy accolades only putting him above Ulic Qel-Droma,

The literal author of TCSWE stated that it means Kun's the most powerful up until that point in the timeline. His indications are infinitely more relevant than what your biased agenda wants it to mean.

The Found wrote:meanwhile Maul's put him above Vitiate,

Have fun with proving that Maul is a planet wiper.

The Found wrote:who in turn is way above Malak

Which is irrelevant when Maul isn't.

The Found wrote:who is above Kun.

Answered above.

The Found wrote:Now, if you want to do something more akin to a meta-analysis where instead of picking feats or accolades over the other, you factor in the totality of evidence, Maul still wins.

Nice proof you've shown there, oh wait...

The Found wrote:And if you want to throw all of those out then feats are subjective and sourcebook statements aren't binding, which means you can't actually choose a winner here.

Well we don't need to because Kun Crados Maul.

The Found wrote:In which case I will make the contention that Maul actually exists in canon, and has non-relative, non-hyperbolic feats which are frankly comparable to Kun's medium-relative feats anyway (like Maul ripping down that giant apparatus in the recent episode, ripping a giant shuttle from a cliff while running and distracted, not able to be outright ragdolled by Sidious or Vader tier beings who have their own non-relative monstrous TK feats), meanwhile Kun simply does not exist in canon, or at least, he doesn't exist in a non-relative, non-exaggerated capacity (because all of his feats are classed as "legends" which have a dubious level of authenticity in-universe), meaning out of the two, Maul is the only one with accomplishments that aren't canonically dubious, meaning he wins by default.

This was the stupidest argument I've seen in months, and I've been debating LeGenD.

The Found wrote:Whether you choose the meta-analysis viewpoint or the canon-relativity viewpoint, you're forced to admit that while there isn't a 100% confirmed winner, the probability massively favors Maul in a statistical sense since the preponderance of evidence is in his favour.

None of the evidence is in his favor. Kun still massacres him just like he massacres Krayt.

The Found wrote:So doing a meta-meta analysis of all methodologies (feats only, statements only, feats + statements, feats + statements meta analysis, no feats and no statements, or official 2020 canon policy), this means that the best Kun has is either a very low % chance of winning (if you go with the current canon policy methodology), or outright ambiguity (if you throw out all evidence entirely), whereas the best Maul has is outright 100% confirmation of superiority (if you go with any methodology that includes feats and/or accolades), or at least a high % likelihood of superiority based on the preponderance of evidence (any kind of meta-analysis of evidence or all methodologies).

This is mind-bogglingly absurd. The totality of evidence suggests Kun was the most powerful Sith in the mythos when TPM Maul was a thing and Sheev only contended that afterwards. Maul's counter accolade, which there's only one of, is out-dated 1999 vs Kun's which is 2002 and thus retconned, as well as straight up far from the definitive claim you want to appeal to.

The Found wrote:Happy holidays!

Thanks for coming, and proving how inadequate Maul is in this fight with your half-hearted, non-sourced mental vomit.

TCW Maul doesn't have much even if assuming Legends, cause then he's only going to get TCW, TPM, TCW comics/novels. It's a completely separate timeline, he's not going to benefit from any prior 08 material, because none of it adds up. So all of that scaling doesn't apply to him, because TCW Maul doesn't exist in C-Canon. In C-Canon, he's dead as of the duel on Naboo.

@VictreebelVictr

I wasn't using any sources to support this, only that Traya's feats far surpass anything Ahsoka has ever done.

They don't. Ahsoka's fight with Maul far surpasses anything Traya has done, given that Traya's far below Kun who is sub-TPM Maul.

Considering Kun's absolute superiority over Traya, it is simply ludicrous to think that Ahsoka would come remotely close to beating him.

How is it ludicrous? The only thing you've done so far is assert that certain things are true without actually proving them. It doesn't matter if Ahsoka doesn't have a bunch of feats on par with Traya's, because her one feat - which is vastly above all of Traya's - makes it clear she can replicate all of the latter's showings.

Again:

I wrote:Her not showing power on that level doesn't preclude her from being that high: it just makes her power level unknown. You need to provide proof she's not on that level to contradict the quote.

---

I personally take that quote with a huge grain of salt.

I personally don't care about your arbitrary dismissal - you haven't provided any elaboration at all with any of the below claims.

The sources themselves aren't great,

How is the source not that great? The source is C-Canon, and thus, binding - unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

it is likely a plot tool,

What do you mean by a "plot tool"? That sounds like a completely arbitrary description, so you can dismiss quotes that don't fit your bias. Again, the source is C-Canon, and thus, binding - unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

and there is no evidence whatsoever that backs them up.

I don't need evidence to support a stance that is already codified in canon. The quote by itself is evidence - due to it being binding - I don't need any further proof. In fact, you're the one who needs to prove evidence against the quote, rather than arbitrary dismissals that are not backed up by anything in LFL's canon policy.

Maul's greatest force feat is the hyperdrive scene in TCW season 7, which can be easily replicated by Sith Lords that have come before Maul.

Even assuming it can, why should I care? Others who are below Maul being able to replicate the feat doesn't have anything to do with proving they transcend Maul's upper limit unless he strained immensely while exerting himself to the maximum in this feat. And, even then, I'd question the logic because you also have to account for the fact that TCW is an extraordinarily unexaggerated medium - when you factor in Maul's scaling from other (more exaggerated) mediums, you'll see he can perform far better feats than this one.

For example, Nihilus held the entire Ravager together

Avellone confirmed that Nihilus didn't do so on account of any sort of extreme power and that the "feat" was accomplished moreso because of Nihilus's unique ties to the ship:

Conversation with Chris Avellone wrote:Question: "Also, why was Darth Nihilus's ship intact after he died, even though Tobin said he holds the ship together by his power?"

Answer: "Nihilus: Some poetic license was taken with the Ravager – I mostly wanted Nihilus to have a ghost ship in keeping with his personality. It wouldn’t immediately fall apart without Nihilus, but his presence there and his ties to it make minor changes and upkeeps to its function and hull that keep it intact – if barely. When killed, the ship would slowly begin to fall apart into wreckage, although it’s not held together by any sort of super Telekinesis."

---

(which is about 12 times larger than a Star Destroyer might I add).

Uhhhh... what? I'm not an expert on ships, but isn't Nihilus's ship only 1200m long, whereas a Star Destroyer is 1600m long? I'm pretty sure it's not "12 times larger", but if you could provide a citation for this, that'd be great.

Anyway, on a more cheerful note:

The Found wrote:Happy holidays!

The 1999 deadlier than ever quote is vague at best and demonstratably wrong at worst. Not that I'll repeat myself about why. If that quote is literally all Maul has, and evidently it is given ILS's joke above, then Kun can't do anything but stomp.

Exar Kun.

Maul would lose to Thanaton

Sub - Nun Vader-level Maul loses. Kun is too terrifying for him to beat.

KingKopecz wrote:The Sith triumvirate is sub Ludo Kressh who in turn is vastly sub Kun. You could’ve used that as your evidence.

What? who is the triumvirate sub Ludo Kressh ?

So are we all forgetting Maul has saber skills that possibly rival TPM Yoda, meaning his force aug is on a similar level, he was also trained by Sidious to eventually surpass him, and his apprenticeship is impeccable

"Thus far your apprenticeship has been impeccable. You have never wavered in your intent, and you have executed your tasks flawlessly. Your skill as a sword master is peerless."

In many ways Darth Maul was an exemplary acolyte. His loyalty was unquestionable and unshakable; Sidious knew that, if he were to command it, Maul would sacrifice his life without a second’s hesitation. And his skills as a warrior were nonpareil.