TFU 1 Galen Marek vs Count Dooku

Okay, so we have the referenced para here:

The "such" in “Dark side powers enabled Sith Lord Darth Tyranus to manipulate the Force at will, hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack.” refers to "hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts,” the totality of which the source describes as “an attack.” This is reinforced by far weaker Jedi than Yoda surviving “single Force attacks from Dooku,” such as 22 BBY Anakin deflecting Dooku’s Force lightning (link) and 22 BBY Obi-Wan quickly recovering from Dooku’s telekinesis (link), despite Dooku fighting to kill. So, per the quote, only Yoda could let Dooku stand there and unleash his full potency for sixty seconds without fighting back. Mace wouldn't have to "survive such an attack" because he wouldn't let Dooku employ such a prolonged barrage. Thus, the quote doesn't place Dooku above Mace.

This is worded specifically to counter the claim that Dooku one-shots anyone below Yoda in power. I'm using the quote as defining a rough power level for Dooku - a power level that isn't matched by Galen anywhere. That's the burden of proof for you to provide that.

NotAA3 wrote:This does nothing to address my point (in fact it further strengthens it)... My point was that despite the enormous power disparity between Sidious and Maul Sidious can't breach Maul's defences mid-combat without abusing openings Maul gives him. I never claimed Maul and Sidious were close which is what you seem to be insinuating. You missed the point entirely.

My point is that Sidious was toying, and wasn't even using his full power during the entirety of the duel. So we can't compare Maul to baseline Sidious to be honest.

NotAA3 wrote:What about these feats makes Vader a tier 7?

Vader has nothing by TFU to prove he's even superior to TPM Maul, let alone a tier 8 in his own right. Consider also that Insider has Vader and Kenobi as shadows of their former selves.

Dooku.

Dooku

@Meatpants

This is worded specifically to counter the claim that Dooku one-shots anyone below Yoda in power. I'm using the quote as defining a rough power level for Dooku - a power level that isn't matched by Galen anywhere. That's the burden of proof for you to provide that.

If you're not using it as Az did then I don't see the relevance tbh. Galen is not going to let Dooku unleash his power at him and solely defend for a minute. Moreover, I'm not convinced any Jedi as of AOTC who Dooku can overwhelm with his power are on par with Galen who has immense feats like re-directing a falling ISD. This is also ignoring the fact that Galen has defended against Lightning from a significantly more powerful being than Dooku in Palpatine for like 20 seconds so I honestly can't see Dooku overwhelming him.

My point is that Sidious was toying, and wasn't even using his full power during the entirety of the duel. So we can't compare Maul to baseline Sidious to be honest.

Tell me MP is Sidious not using his full power based on anything other than conjecture? Plus, it doesn't even matter if he wasn't. He was clearly still significantly beyond Maul+Savage even while not using his full strength yet couldn't ragdoll either of them without abusing openings.

Vader has nothing by TFU to prove he's even superior to TPM Maul, let alone a tier 8 in his own right. Consider also that Insider has Vader and Kenobi as shadows of their former selves.

There are quotes saying Vader is more powerful than his Mustafar self as of ANH. Given that Vader didn't grow much from TFU to TFU 2 as can be seen by the fact that Galen in had the measure of Vader's abilities in TFU 2 from experiencing his power in the first Death Star duel and the fact that TFU 2 takes place in the same year as ANH it would be illogical to assume Vader grew massively more powerful by ANH. So, in essence Galen ragdolled a ROTS tier Kenobi combatant. Note that Vader's combative feats don't mean shit due to the fact that he's limited by his cybernetics and as the the feat I cited is a Force power feat no anti-feats related to duelling can be brought up to lowball Vader.

TFU Vader tier 7 is lolworthy. Some of his best feats come from before TFU.

Dooku

Not sure why people are saying Dooku. Galen massacres

“There are quotes saying Vader is more powerful than his Mustafar self as of ANH.”


And a metric fuckton saying he isn’t. Including several from GL

Yeah, not giving HP a response after that, lol

Galen is portrayed to be someone above Dooku's paygrade, yet people say Dooku wins.
PT wank can die.

It doesn’t matter how flashy he is. Did you actually read what’s in the thread?

@Greysentinel365

And a metric fuckton saying he isn’t. Including several from GL

Care to post any of these?

@Meatpants

Yeah, not giving HP a response after that, lol

Why?

NotAA3 wrote:If you're not using it as Az did then I don't see the relevance tbh.

The relevance is to establish Dooku's power level, which is well above Galen has ever demonstrated.

NotAA3 wrote:This is also ignoring the fact that Galen has defended against Lightning from a significantly more powerful being than Dooku in Palpatine for like 20 seconds so I honestly can't see Dooku overwhelming him.

That's a bit of a choppy claim. Let's have a look at the novel:

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

He wasn't as much defending against is as just tanking it the damage, and even then Sidious' lightning instantly seared every nerve in his body. He's not going to recover after that.

NotAA3 wrote:Tell me MP is Sidious not using his full power based on anything other than conjecture? Plus, it doesn't even matter if he wasn't. He was clearly still significantly beyond Maul+Savage even while not using his full strength yet couldn't ragdoll either of them without abusing openings.

It's an inferred stance. Sidious factually toyed with Maul during that fight. And please provide proof that he needed openings to ragdoll Savage and/or Maul.

NotAA3 wrote:There are quotes saying Vader is more powerful than his Mustafar self as of ANH.

Okay, let's have a look at a few saying otherwise:

Star Wars Insider 86 wrote:Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.

Inferring that Luke is nowhere near RotS Yoda, the same Luke that is equal to Vader in power and deadliness in the Force, who you claim is more powerful than his Mustafar self, a tier 9 on the same level as RotS Yoda and Sidious. There's more:

Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader wrote: wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

Star Wars Head-To-Head wrote: wrote:An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers.

Anakin is at the peak of his powers before his injuries.

Star Wars Blueprints - The Ultimate Collection wrote: wrote:Although the Dark Lord was entirely dependent on his armor’s life support systems, and his formidable powers were drastically reduced by his injuries, he remained strong with the Force for the rest of his life.

There's more, but there's a few, including statements from George Lucas himelf. Thus, your statement here:

NotAA3 wrote:So, in essence Galen ragdolled a ROTS tier Kenobi combatant.

Is completely wrong. So again, please prove that Vader can beat the likes of TPM Maul, let alone someone like Dooku who can arguably ragdoll the former.

NotAA3 wrote:Note that Vader's combative feats don't mean shit due to the fact that he's limited by his cybernetics and as the the feat I cited is a Force power feat no anti-feats related to duelling can be brought up to lowball Vader.

I mean... okay? Augmentation does generally have a direct link to dueling skill, especially when both combatants are very skilled duelists.

@Meatpants

The relevance is to establish Dooku's power level, which is well above Galen has ever demonstrated.

I mean, you haven't exactly substantiated why Dooku being able to overpower any Jedi not as powerful as Yoda by unleashing his full potency for around a minute puts him above Galen. What feats do these Jedi have which are comparable to Galen:

A) Re-directing a falling ISD.

B) Ragdolling Vader.

That's a bit of a choppy claim. Let's have a look at the novel: He wasn't as much defending against is as just tanking it the damage, and even then Sidious' lightning instantly seared every nerve in his body. He's not going to recover after that.

Given that Sidious was using his full potency, the fact that Marek only suffered from intense pain indicates he defended against the vast majority of the energy (he would have been incinerated if he hadn't). Given this premise, I would say it's definitely plausible he can fully absorb Dooku's lightning or mitigate its effects to the point where it's mostly harmless.

It's an inferred stance. Sidious factually toyed with Maul during that fight. And please provide proof that he needed openings to ragdoll Savage and/or Maul.

A) Proof Sidious toyed with Maul?

B) Shadow Conspiracy notes Sidious was exploiting openings Maul gave him in order to TK him which if he was capable of breaking through Maul's Force Barrier directly he shouldn't have had to do.

Okay, let's have a look at a few saying otherwise:

Yes, let's.

Inferring that Luke is nowhere near RotS Yoda, the same Luke that is equal to Vader in power and deadliness in the Force, who you claim is more powerful than his Mustafar self, a tier 9 on the same level as RotS Yoda and Sidious.

Luke is obviously significantly less powerful than Yoda, but the same is true for MF Vader. His TK stalemate of Obi-Wan in ROTS did not give me the impression he's close to Yoda. His ranking on a Lightsaber tiering system is irrelevant to this.

There's more: Anakin is at the peak of his powers before his injuries.

Yes, Vader was obviously more powerful on Mustafar but due to his mental instability, he couldn't properly manifest those powers properly (I know you're aware of the KF Vader >> MF Vader argument). Any quotes saying he grew weaker from his injuries or was at the height of his powers before MF are irrelevant due to this, as I'm claiming Vader wields greater combat applicable Force Power than his MF self.

There's more, but there's a few, including statements from George Lucas himelf. Thus, your statement here:

Great, tell me when any of these quotes refer to MF Vader's combat applicable power.

Is completely wrong. So again, please prove that Vader can beat the likes of TPM Maul, let alone someone like Dooku who can arguably ragdoll the former.

I don't need to prove anything.

I mean... okay? Augmentation does generally have a direct link to dueling skill, especially when both combatants are very skilled duelists.

This doesn't address anything I've said. Due to his cybernetics, gauging Vader's Force Power based on his duelling feats is basically impossible.