Galen Marek vs Darth Vader (Deathstar)

Just curious to hear the different interpretations of the fight. I personally think they are even until Galen makes Vader fight sloppy with a taunt and "finds a better way to kill"

They were evenly matched until Galen let go of his hate and embraced the Light Side, whereupon he ragdolled Vader.

SithArchaeologist wrote:They were evenly matched until Galen let go of his hate and embraced the Light Side, whereupon he ragdolled Vader.

Interesting so you would agree It's fair to give Vader all of Galen's feats up to that point, since him reaching that enlightenment only ever happened during that fight, thus Vader can tear an ISD out of the sky?

Vader was only able to stalemate Galen when he had the psychological edge. As soon as Galen gained the clarity of mind necessary he ragdolled Vader like a child.

DC77 wrote:Vader was only able to stalemate Galen when he had the psychological edge. As soon as Galen gained the clarity of mind necessary he ragdolled Vader like a child.

Citation needed.

DC77 wrote:Vader was only able to stalemate Galen when he had the psychological edge. As soon as Galen gained the clarity of mind necessary he ragdolled Vader like a child.

Did he? As I recall in the Novel he had to throw an explosive at Vader then "finally some real blood was flowing" from that point on he held the distinct advantage and blasted him out a window, but you are practically misinforming the thread to imply he steamrolled Vader. The the wii version he has to fight him for minutes leveraging his speed and agility to the fullest and then he ragdolls him (though I would like to see the prima guide for TFU to confirm the ragdoll as legitimate) In the x box version It requires Galen dropping several pillars on Vader tearing them off, then Vader gets up is hounded once more by Galen [he would obviously be weakened by this point] he gets slashed across his right leg prosthesis, then when Vader is on one knee, he performs 3 overhand strikes from an advantageous position before finally taking Vader's helmet off, then as if it wasn't enough already he slams Vader against an energy shield generator picks him up spins him and blasts him out the observation window into a pillar finally Koing him. Now the comic is a different story in the comic as I recall galen does not ragdoll Vader at all, Instead he just drops two fucking pillars on him crushes him. So while I agree Vader was simply outclassed at a certain point, I would liken it to how Dooku deals with KFV in the ROTS Film, sure ge gets overwhelmed but he puts up a bit of a fight.

Both are severely weaker than AotC Anakin.

Jakes shitposting aside, I would really like DC to respond seeing as how he always harasses me about conceding [not responding] he should at least back up his own views...

I'll write something out on the fight after my rebuttal to SA.

You always say you'll "write something out" but never do.

I'm aware, it's a busy time IRL and I'm lazy. Don't worry though, I'll get to you (And everyone else I owe posts to), it's soon to be the Summer Holidays (I haven't forgotten about the Outlander thread btw) so I'll have plenty of time.

You have my word, for whatever that's worth.

DC77 wrote:You have my word, for whatever that's worth.

Jack shit?

@Azronger

Can't be bothered to type anything out so here you go:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=7

This pretty much summarises my thoughts though I can more in-depth if you'd like.

Scroll down to post 9 and read RE: A HINT OF NOTHING.

Krayt Dies wrote:@Azronger

Can't be bothered to type anything out so here you go:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=7

This pretty much summarises my thoughts though I can more in-depth if you'd like.

Scroll down to post 9 and read RE: A HINT OF NOTHING.

Yeah, no.

1. I've never seen any real proof for this supposed idea that Force users are tapping into their dormant potential whenever they push themselves to their limits for an extended period of time. The only argument for this that I've seen is Anakin's theta storm feat, but as I've explained before, that argument is a non-sequitur; that "Obi-Wan believed Yoda couldn't replicate the theta storm feat" can't be used by itself to conclude "all Force users can access their locked Force potential if they try hard enough" - the argument requires more than one premise to function. I don't see why that explanation is more plausible than, for example, Obi-Wan simply being ignorant of the full depth and scope of Yoda's abilities.

There are other problems with this argument specifically in the context of Galen Marek as well. Anakin was performing his feat for an hour while Marek exerted himself for a few minutes at best for his greatest feats. At what point is the Force user going from his actualized power into his potential power? After 30 seconds? Two minutes? 30 minutes? There are some unsupported assumptions being made that are then used to unfairly curtail Vader when nothing in the lore even remotely indicates these ring true. We even see Marek using his ISD-level strength in combat when he powers up the cannon with his lightning that then tears a hole through the hull of a Star Destroyer and brings down a megastructure larger than the Executor. Again, he does that in a hurry, and his power doesn't skyrocket or seem to fluctuate at all for feats where he exerts himself for minutes on end.

2. The psychological advantage thing is also BS. "Galen may be able to defeat any opponent, but the sheer thought of being comparable to Vader in power never seems to even cross Galen’s mind until he frees himself from Vader’s control" - this is blatantly untrue: when rescuing PROXY from the clutches of the Core after bringing down the Star Destroyer, Galen asks himself "What was the point of being stronger than Darth Vader if he couldn't save his best friend?" He already believes himself to be more powerful than Vader long before their duel, hence why, when the fight starts, "He thought he was ready - and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise." He went in there to kick Vader's ass with the belief he could kick Vader's ass. Galen's not surprised or amazed that he can match his former Master as an equal like Ant claims; rather, he's surprised that Vader can match him as an equal.

That Marek found "a better way to kill" and gained "a new strength of his own" goes uncontested by me, but this notion he was mentally handicapped specifically against Vader previously in the fight does. There's nothing in the text indicating such. Marek doesn't note any decrease in power on his part; as the battle is about to start, "The apprentice knew exactly what to expect […] He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles. He thought he was ready - and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise." Galen acknowledges the psychological abuse he had endured at Vader's hands, but thinks he can beat Vader regardless. Ergo, he's already past that. His only surprise comes from how powerful Vader actually is, and so he concludes Vader must have always held back, but that doesn't prove he had some sort of psychological deficiency that disadvantaged him; he even states Vader would see his "true potential" as he's fighting, before he has any thoughts about "a better way to finish the job."

To add to Az's point He notes that in all previous sparring sessions "Vader either held back or he himself had capitulated." Which implies he doesn't even know where his power stands in comparison to Vader let alone only thinking of himself as a slave even after they exchange the first blows.

Excellent post, shame everyone will be ‘too busy’ to counter it for the next few months.

Nah I'll respond later tonight.

Apologies I wasn't able to get back to this today. Will finish my response to you tomorrow.

Needed an extension 

Not the most familiar with SK, but that Vader defence is actually the best I’ve seen in a long time.

@Azronger

I'm gonna skip over the start part of it as I don't feel it's really relevant to the duel itself and more just discussing how applicable SK's feats are to Vader. Anyway onto my actual rebuttal.

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Your entire case seems to be based on tiptoeing around Ant's actual argument and not actually addressing it. For starters, you quote SK's internal thoughts about the duel and also some long before it to indicate he's already past his mental condition at Vader's hands. You are correct in asserting that SK finally believed himself to be better than Vader after ripping the ISD out of the sky and also began to have independent thoughts etc but the fact that SK was past his psychological trauma is not indicated anywhere in the passages you posted (only that he is beginning to break Vader's hold over him). All he thinks is that he can beat Vader regardless of these issues (as he has gained some mental clarity) not that he is totally free of them which per his own inner monologues he is not:

He still couldn't think of himself that way. He had been nothing but an apprentice for all his conscious life. It might be years before he was completely free of his Master's taint, if he survived that long.

Credit: The Force Unleashed Novelization

Galen is even as of the end of the novel still struggling to see himself as anything other than Darth Vader's apprentice and notes it may be years until he's free of his master's taint. Does that sound like someone who's completely broken free of their psychological hinderances?



I certainly don't think so and it's reflected in his duel with Vader as well. After the initial exchange where Vader catches him off guard with his strength and puts him on the back foot (similarly to how Bane does to Zannah in DoE) Galen loses his confidence and thinks he and Vader are "equals" as Ant kindly quoted. In fact, you've completely ignored Ant's entire argument and have instead elected to needlessly quibble whether Galen viewed himself as better than Vader or not before the fight which is entirely irrelevant to the fact that Galen does view himself as equal to Vader after the initial exchange of the fight where he's finally seen Vader's full strength (they obviously aren't equals as can be seen in the final exchange). All of the quotes you've posted about Galen viewing himself as better are before the fight by which point he hasn't seen Vader's full strength and underestimates his master. You've not refuted the idea that Galen would be hindered by his thoughts of equality with Vader nor have you refuted the fact that the thoughts existed within the fight and thus your argument essentially might as well have been a concession given that it doesn't refute any of the core points being discussed.

Anyway to reiterate, after the initial exchange, Galen slowly begins to regain his confidence and makes jabs at Vader and as soon as he decides Vader should lose Vader does. The novel paints a very decisive picture of Galen's superiority.

Now that we've been over the novel I'd like to draw attention to the fact that you haven't refuted the comic version of the fight at all. While it obviously doesn't take precedence over the novel it should nonetheless be a reliable indicator of the thematic intentions of TFU and can simply reflect another plausible set of events which could occur if the characters acted differently in certain scenarios. In the comic as Ant explained Galen stomped Vader in a few panels and resisted his master's attempts to place control over him. So yeah every relevant depiction of the fight depicts Galen beating Vader once he's removed his mental hindrances.

There's more stuff I could get into regarding Galen's mental state but I don't feel the need to as of yet given that your rebuttal to Ant's post wasn't exactly a smashing success and I'm lazy.  

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@Flunky Cyborg

Did he? As I recall in the Novel he had to throw an explosive at Vader then "finally some real blood was flowing" from that point on he held the distinct advantage and blasted him out a window, but you are practically misinforming the thread to imply he steamrolled Vader.

Well, he did... The fact that Galen slashing Vader a couple of times with his lightsaber and picking him up with TK didn't damage Vader is expected given Vader's incredible durability. That doesn't mean he wasn't steamrolling Vader lmao. Just for a verbal depiction of what happened in the final exchange: Galen threw Vader back with a TK attack, pushed him back in lightsaber combat (he was pressuring Vader so much the latter couldn't even disengage), slashed him several times and then ragdolled him. What about that is not a stomp?

The the wii version he has to fight him for minutes leveraging his speed and agility to the fullest and then he ragdolls him (though I would like to see the prima guide for TFU to confirm the ragdoll as legitimate)

Evidence for the fight in the Wii version being minutes long? Anyway, I've not seen anything indicating the ragdolling wasn't legitimate.

In the x box version It requires Galen dropping several pillars on Vader tearing them off, then Vader gets up is hounded once more by Galen [he would obviously be weakened by this point] he gets slashed across his right leg prosthesis, then when Vader is on one knee, he performs 3 overhand strikes from an advantageous position before finally taking Vader's helmet off, then as if it wasn't enough already he slams Vader against an energy shield generator picks him up spins him and blasts him out the observation window into a pillar finally Koing him.

See my rebuttal to your account of the novel. Nothing here indicates Galen can't stomp Vader all it indicates is that Vader is extremely durable.

Now the comic is a different story in the comic as I recall galen does not ragdoll Vader at all, Instead he just drops two fucking pillars on him crushes him.

After stomping him in sabers.

So while I agree Vader was simply outclassed at a certain point, I would liken it to how Dooku deals with KFV in the ROTS Film, sure ge gets overwhelmed but he puts up a bit of a fight.

Dooku got stomped in ROTS...