Top Fifteen Tournament - New and Updated Format

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:ROTJ sheev > FOTJ luke... goddamn son

Legit true, ROTJ Sheev can travel way faster than Light speed, the only version of Luke that can do that is Crucible Luke after receiving his massive buff that allowed even non force users to use TK

How can you have RotJ Sidious on the same level as JA Kun but above FotJ Luke?

DE Luke was in no way comparable to DE Sheev, Sheev is magnitudes beyond Luke at this point, Crucible Luke is the only version of Luke that could have potentially surpassed Sidious

Sidious was only capable of dominating DE Luke through telepathy, exploiting Luke's fragile emotional state during his time under the darkside.

That is not at all a reason to knock Sheev, The reason he can only manifest himself through his storms is because he is no longer defined by his physical form, he is literally too powerful to be contained in a physical body he is a "Chaotic Nexus of dark energy that swell and burst open the fabric of space" even ROTJ Sidious would be above FOTJ Luke

I'm not knocking Sidious, I'm saying unlike Luke or even Krayt he can't manifest all his power through conventional force powers.

Sheev's physical form was a tiny fraction of his full power and even then Luke only managed to defeat him with Leia's Battle Med which was "Unlocking Lukes potential" while also amped by the presence of Sheev's nexus and Byys, two of the strongest Dark Side Nexi ever!

Ignoring that Sheev was also amped by Byss.

Nope, the TCW quote would not apply to the future, this is not the quote that puts Palpatine above Krayt

everything here is present tense, Take the other quote for example (the one that does lock Palpatine above Krayt)


Everything in this Quote is past tense except that one line, its the combination of "Modern times" and the quote being past tense that indicates the meaning of this quote that Sidious is the most powerful practitioner of Sith ways spanning up to up to the Legacy Era, whereas "Modern Times" by its self like in the TCW quote doesn't span up to Legacy, the "Modern Times" in the TCW quote refers to TCW times as Modern, not Legacy.

Modern times meaning it spans until Palpatine's time.  So up until his death he is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith.  There is no implication it is referring to Legacy era.

Yeah a couple of C-Canon sources, children's books and Author opinions that don't have authority over G-Canon whatsoever

It was actually by Lucas himself  

Yes in the biggest cheap shot ever that would have been suicide for anyone that was not a Cyborg, Jinn genuinely pressed Maul pretty hard to where Maul was struggling

Jinn wasn't pressing Maul at all:

He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily. It was bad luck and chance that had led to his death, a combination that even the power of the dark side could not always overcome.

Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Novel

Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack,at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.

Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Novel

Having expected a greater challenge from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, he felt even more disgusted by them.

Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul

Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you.

Source: The Wrath of Darth Maul

The only time Jinn remotely pressed Maul is when Maul was caught off guard by Jinn's meditation amp which granted him a "fresh reserve of strength."  Even then all Maul had to do to gain the advantage again was flip across the melting pit "giving himself some space in which to recover, gaining just enough time to assume a new battle stance."

Jinn and Vader's performance was virtually identical, as Maul toyed with both of them.

Well yeh obviously, the quote is from the Jedi's perspective and the Jedi did not know of Sheev and Plagueis, only Maul, he was the only one that was "Back" unlike Sheev and plag who remained hidden, so the Quote doesn't include them

I know I just thought you were trying to say Maul> Sheev or Hego, my fault

KingKopecz wrote:How can you have RotJ Sidious on the same level as JA Kun but above FotJ Luke?

Not JA Kun, post ritual Kun who is stronger. and because ROTJ Sidious covered thousands of light years in one year from Endor to Byys

ROTJ Sheev is faster than Light speed



Only FOTJ Luke achieves similar speeds

FOTJ wrote:"Luke raised his lightsaber and grasped the sith in the force intending to bring him tumbling into an ignited blade then felt something catch him across the ankles he had no time to be astonished barely even the nanosecond required to realize abeloth survived her fall into the cleft."

Luke traveling at a nanosecond, the speed of light is one foot in a nano second, and even that isn't as impressive as Sheev's feat

ROTJ Sheev >/~ FOTJ Luke

Wat

...

KingofBlades wrote:Wat

lol yeah, more or less

@iamthatguy

Sidious was only capable of dominating DE Luke through telepathy, exploiting Luke's fragile emotional state during his time under the darkside.

Citation Needed

I'm saying unlike Luke or even Krayt he can't manifest all his power through conventional force powers.

Yes because "all his power" is literally too much for a physical body to handle, the power manifested through his physical body is literally, the max amount of power the body will let him accomplish, which is still incredible and much more powerful than ROTJ Sheev, who's power I outlined in my other post.

Ignoring that Sheev was also amped by Byss.

Well yeh but its possible he wasn't or at least the Nexus wouldn't have done much seeing as he himself is a far more potent Nexus, but even if he was amped, Luke is amped to high heaven in this duel and Sheev was in an unstable clone body.

Modern times meaning it spans until Palpatine's time. So up until his death he is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith.

for the TCW quote yes.

There is no implication it is referring to Legacy era.

Yes there is notice the OOU and the past tense, you literally just said...

iamthatguy wrote:Than TCW Sidious is > Nyax if we go by the "modern times" quotes

It was actually by Lucas himself

Citation needed, Lucas has always portrayed Vader as a cripple and a damaged fraction of his former self, even Sidious says this in TFU

Jinn and Vader's performance was virtually identical, as Maul toyed with both of them.

Maul didn't toy with Jinn tho




They r equals from higher levels of Canon, those Maul > Jinn quotes still exist so I would give Maul an edge but they are close

Tatooine Showdown wrote:Returning from Mos Espa with Anakin Skywalker, Qui-Gon is ambushed by a figure in flowing dark robes - it is the evil Darth Maul. Ordering Anakin to the ship, Qui-Gon matches his awesome Jedi skill against the Sith Lord's sinister power. Both escape with their lives, but it would not be their last meeting.

-Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul wrote:He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.

Quigon "Matches" Maul, doesn't toy with him at all, but i would agree Maul is still slightly more powerful

I know I just thought you were trying to say Maul> Sheev or Hego, my fault

No probs

hmm, maul was prepared to fight vader specifically iirc, he had an agility advantage, a weapon advantage, AND may have been amped, AND may have been fodder to vader in the force all along. but no, yeah, lucas quote gg ez

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:hmm, maul was prepared to fight vader specifically iirc, he had an agility advantage, a weapon advantage, AND may have been amped, AND may have been fodder to vader in the force all along. but no, yeah, lucas quote gg ez

Maul was confirmed to not be amped, Vader as well was confirmed that it was an empty threat. Further proven by the fact that Vader was willing to use the force during the fight but couldn't use it directly on Maul.

Don't know why Maul having an agility advantage is supposed to be a contributing factor to why Maul won, I mean yeah, Maul is more agile, so what? And Maul was actually at a weapon disadvantage with the double blade, shown since when he switched to Jar'Kai he put Vader on his ass in like 2 panels.

Citation Needed

Wait, so you're going to ask me for a citation yet claimed DE Sidious dominated Luke in combat? Did you even read the DE trilogy?

Yes because "all his power" is literally too much for a physical body to handle, the power manifested through his physical body is literally, the max amount of power the body will let him accomplish, which is still incredible and much more powerful than ROTJ Sheev, who's power I outlined in my other post.

Because his potential isn't on the level of Luke's, who Krayt is called a peer of.

Well yeh but its possible he wasn't or at least the Nexus wouldn't have done much seeing as he himself is a far more potent Nexus, but even if he was amped, Luke is amped to high heaven in this duel and Sheev was in an unstable clone body.

I assume you're referring to Leia's amp?? Luke wasn't amped in the duel, he was only amped when trying to fight Sheev's force storm.

for the TCW quote yes.

For both quotes.

Yes there is notice the OOU and the past tense, you literally just said...

iamthatguy wrote:Than TCW Sidious is > Nyax if we go by the "modern times" quotes

Again, modern times meaning until Palpatine's death. Also pretty sure that quote came out before Legacy era was a thing lol.

Citation needed, Lucas has always portrayed Vader as a cripple and a damaged fraction of his former self, even Sidious says this in TFU

Fraction of his former self as in his potential, not actualized power. You don't lose power when you get injured, just potential.

George Lucas: "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

Source: Rolling Stone Interview (2005)

Maul didn't toy with Jinn tho

They r equals from higher levels of Canon, those Maul > Jinn quotes still exist so I would give Maul an edge but they are close

Retconned, the same way Dooku and Yoda being "peers" in AOTC was retconned.

Even if you want to say Maul wasn't toying with Jinn based on the original intent, there's still this from the novelization which puts Maul vastly above Jinn:

He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily. It was bad luck and chance that had led to his death, a combination that even the power of the dark side could not always overcome.

Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Novel

Tatooine Showdown wrote:Returning from Mos Espa with Anakin Skywalker, Qui-Gon is ambushed by a figure in flowing dark robes - it is the evil Darth Maul. Ordering Anakin to the ship, Qui-Gon matches his awesome Jedi skill against the Sith Lord's sinister power. Both escape with their lives, but it would not be their last meeting.

-Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul wrote:He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.

Quigon "Matches" Maul, doesn't toy with him at all, but i would agree Maul is still slightly more powerful

That is quote the misconception there lol. Qui-Gon "matches" his skills against Maul's, meaning he is fighting Maul. Doesn't mean he is matching Maul. It's also quite clearly contradicted by the movie and novelization where Maul is hastily besting Jinn despite being injured.

No probs

iamthatguy wrote:Again, modern times meaning until Palpatine's death.  Also pretty sure that quote came out before Legacy era was a thing lol.

That particular quote originated with the now-defunct pre-Disney StarWars.com databank:



That same databank directly references Darth Krayt:



In other words, the same source that proclaims Sidious the most powerful practitioner of modern times also directly mentions the most modern reigning Dark Lord.

Wait, so you're going to ask me for a citation yet claimed DE Sidious dominated Luke in combat? Did you even read the DE trilogy?

When did I claim he dominated Luke? An I'm still gonna need that Citation lol

Because his potential isn't on the level of Luke's, who Krayt is called a peer of.

Sheev reached power FAR beyond his potential, plus what is to say Luke has reached his potential in any of the material we have
and the Krayt quote does NOT mean he is on Luke's level at all he was just the current Dark Lord

I assume you're referring to Leia's amp?? Luke wasn't amped in the duel, he was only amped when trying to fight Sheev's force storm.

He was delving into darkside teachings and was officially a Sith he was 100% amped by the Nexi (Byys and Sheev) on top of Leia's amp which unlocked parts of his potential/Unknown Resources 

For both quotes.

No did you not read a word I said when I debunked that notion for you

Again, modern times meaning until Palpatine's death. Also pretty sure that quote came out before Legacy era was a thing lol.

Even though the same source notes Legacy Sith Lords and the legacy era in general, so yes Modern times as of that source + the past tense means Modern times = Legacy. 

Fraction of his former self as in his potential, not actualized power. You don't lose power when you get injured, just potential.

Oh deary me, yes you do look at Vader, the force speaks through Midichlorians, Midichlorians exist in living tissue, when that tissue is gone so are the Midichlorians thus loss of power. literally makes 0 sense for it to not affect power as well an potential 

GL wrote:

George Lucas: "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

yes that supports my point, when he was "no longer as strong as the Emperor" I've already debunked your stupid notion that this is referring to potential in the other thread

Retconned, the same way Dooku and Yoda being "peers" in AOTC was retconned

:lol:how is it retconned that is G-Canon and so is Dooku=Yoda in AOTC, C-Canon cant retcon G-Canon lol, your sources are retconned by this 

He had been more than the equal of the Jedi Knights he had faced and should have been able to defeat them easily. It was bad luck and chance that had led to his death, a combination that even the power of the dark side could not always overcome.

Source: Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace Novel

Being C-Canon that is retconned by the sources I provided which are G-Canon

Tatooine Showdown wrote:Returning from Mos Espa with Anakin Skywalker, Qui-Gon is ambushed by a figure in flowing dark robes - it is the evil Darth Maul. Ordering Anakin to the ship, Qui-Gon matches his awesome Jedi skill against the Sith Lord's sinister power. Both escape with their lives, but it would not be their last meeting.

-Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul wrote:He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.

Quigon "Matches" Maul, doesn't toy with him at all, but i would agree Maul is still slightly more powerful

That is quote the misconception there lol. Qui-Gon "matches" his skills against Maul's, meaning he is fighting Maul. Doesn't mean he is matching Maul. It's also quite clearly contradicted by the movie and novelization where Maul is hastily besting Jinn despite being injured.

The Movie portrays them as near equals, in sabers anyway as does this quote which is G-Canon and overrides all the sources you provided

Gideon/Tempest wrote:

iamthatguy wrote:Again, modern times meaning until Palpatine's death.  Also pretty sure that quote came out before Legacy era was a thing lol.

That particular quote originated with the now-defunct pre-Disney StarWars.com databank:



That same databank directly references Darth Krayt:



In other words, the same source that proclaims Sidious the most powerful practitioner of modern times also directly mentions the most modern reigning Dark Lord.

 THIS... Here is the proof about what I mentioned  @iamthatguy

When did I claim he dominated Luke? An I'm still gonna need that Citation lol

You didn't claim he dominated him, just that he was vastly above him, assumingly because he TP'd an extremely vulnerable Luke:
"DE Luke was in no way comparable to DE Sheev, Sheev is magnitudes beyond Luke at this point"

Sheev reached power FAR beyond his potential, plus what is to say Luke has reached his potential in any of the material we have

I realize he did, doesn't put him above Luke though.

GL also confirmed Luke reached his potential.

and the Krayt quote does NOT mean he is on Luke's level at all he was just the current Dark Lord

"No one whose help you want," Jacen said. "That's the dark man I saw on the Throne of Balance.”

Source: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse (2012)

Balanced between the powers of the light and dark.  Apoc Krayt~Apoc Luke.

He was delving into darkside teachings and was officially a Sith he was 100% amped by the Nexi (Byys and Sheev) on top of Leia's amp which unlocked parts of his potential/Unknown Resources 

Which I acknowledged.  How does this change anything?

No did you not read a word I said when I debunked that notion for you

I did, not convinced at all.

literally makes 0 sense for it to not affect power as well an potential 

Why would it affect actualized power at all?  All that happened was Anakin's midichlorians were destroyed, meaning he didn't grow as fast anymore.

yes that supports my point, when he was "no longer as strong as the Emperor" I've already debunked your stupid notion that this is referring to potential in the other thread

But it doesn't support you lol.  The entire context of the quote refers to Skywalker potential.  How Anakin was originally supposed to surpass Sidious but failed, then Luke was supposed to surpass Sidious.  It's present tense.

:lol:how is it retconned that is G-Canon and so is Dooku=Yoda in AOTC, C-Canon cant retcon G-Canon lol, your sources are retconned by this [/size]

Because Nick Gillard has ROTS Yoda (who you hold as inferior to AOTC Yoda) as a tier 9, while ROTS Dooku is a tier 8.

The Movie portrays them as near equals, in sabers anyway as does this quote which is G-Canon and overrides all the sources you provided

You don't kill an amped near equal in 30 seconds.  Maul killed a meditation amped Jinn in 30 seconds.  Maul was handling Jinn+Kenobi.  They aren't even close to being portrayed as near equals.

iamthatguy wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:hmm, maul was prepared to fight vader specifically iirc, he had an agility advantage, a weapon advantage, AND may have been amped, AND may have been fodder to vader in the force all along. but no, yeah, lucas quote gg ez

Maul was confirmed to not be amped, Vader as well was confirmed that it was an empty threat.  Further proven by the fact that Vader was willing to use the force during the fight but couldn't use it directly on Maul.

Don't know why Maul having an agility advantage is supposed to be a contributing factor to why Maul won, I mean yeah, Maul is more agile, so what?  And Maul was actually at a weapon disadvantage with the double blade, shown since when he switched to Jar'Kai he put Vader on his ass in like 2 panels.

where was it confirmed to NOT be amped, and that it was an empty threat? he used the force to pick up two or so guns to try and shoot maul. luke after 10 minutes of helmet training could deflect some shots lol
hmm yeah, why would maul's agility be a plus? good question. not like we see similar things in pretty much every vader fight. does the enemy jump? vader struggles. does the enemy not jump? vader stomps. its mostly like that. and him having a double bladed saber puts him at a disadvantage because he fared better later on with two individual blades? thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard. maul is literally the most skilled user for the double bladed saber my dude. in fact, id argue that he is better at using a double blader than using individual ones. he won cuz there was no way vader could have fought someone of maul's caliber with two swords at the same time lol

where was it confirmed to NOT be amped, and that it was an empty threat?

Saw it in the Maul vs SK h2h thread. I'll find it later.

he used the force to pick up two or so guns to try and shoot maul. luke after 10 minutes of helmet training could deflect some shots lol

Don't know why you brought this up tbh. All it shows is that Vader was willing to use the force against Maul, but couldn't directly do so.

hmm yeah, why would maul's agility be a plus? good question. not like we see similar things in pretty much every vader fight. does the enemy jump? vader struggles. does the enemy not jump? vader stomps. its mostly like that.

What I'm saying is you can take it away from Maul. It's part of his combative skill set. You're pretty much just asking for stats to be equalized.

Maul didn't need agility when he beat Vader's ass in 2 panels either, he just needed to get serious and stop dancing around him.

and him having a double bladed saber puts him at a disadvantage because he fared better later on with two individual blades? thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard. maul is literally the most skilled user for the double bladed saber my dude. in fact, id argue that he is better at using a double blader than using individual ones. he won cuz there was no way vader could have fought someone of maul's caliber with two swords at the same time lol

Umm, you just agreed with me at the end.

iamthatguy wrote:

where was it confirmed to NOT be amped, and that it was an empty threat?

Saw it in the Maul vs SK h2h thread.  I'll find it later.

he used the force to pick up two or so guns to try and shoot maul. luke after 10 minutes of helmet training could deflect some shots lol

Don't know why you brought this up tbh.  All it shows is that Vader was willing to use the force against Maul, but couldn't directly do so.

hmm yeah, why would maul's agility be a plus? good question. not like we see similar things in pretty much every vader fight. does the enemy jump? vader struggles. does the enemy not jump? vader stomps. its mostly like that.

What I'm saying is you can take it away from Maul.  It's part of his combative skill set.  You're pretty much just asking for stats to be equalized.

Maul didn't need agility when he beat Vader's ass in 2 panels either, he just needed to get serious and stop dancing around him.

and him having a double bladed saber puts him at a disadvantage because he fared better later on with two individual blades? thats the dumbest shit ive ever heard. maul is literally the most skilled user for the double bladed saber my dude. in fact, id argue that he is better at using a double blader than using individual ones. he won cuz there was no way vader could have fought someone of maul's caliber with two swords at the same time lol

Umm, you just agreed with me at the end.

so no scans, me sayin that maul has an advantage is invalid cuz its part of him (or some shit like that, idk), maul used agility in some way or another throughout the whole fight, and me talking about what happened in the actual story somehow means that i agreed with u? um ok, cool beans dawg

@iamthatguy

You didn't claim he dominated him

why did you say this then

iamthatguy wrote:Wait, so you're going to ask me for a citation yet claimed DE Sidious dominated Luke in combat?

?

"DE Luke was in no way comparable to DE Sheev, Sheev is magnitudes beyond Luke at this point"

Yes I stand by that, Luke is nowhere near DE Sheev, not in the slightest, not even nearly close to him
clearly you need to read DE again lol

GL also confirmed Luke reached his potential.

Citation needed, George never spoke on post ROTJ comics and novels at all, and certainly didn't confirm DE Luke was Lukes full potential, again shitting Lucas quotes out your ass 

"No one whose help you want," Jacen said. "That's the dark man I saw on the Throne of Balance.”

Source: Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse (2012)

Balanced between the powers of the light and dark.  Apoc Krayt~Apoc Luke.

Not really, being a dark side counterpart doesn't mean parity at all

Which I acknowledged.  How does this change anything?  

if you cant see how it changes anything then I question your intelligence, your claim was that Luke was comparable to DE Sheev, if you also acknowledge him being amped to the high heavens to compete with a fraction of Sheev's power, how would that not change anything, I do not understand how you can acknowledge that and still conclude he is comparable.

I did, not convinced at all.

How, its clear as day lemme explain it again nice and simple


-TCW Quote: all present tense, speaking from a point of view of the clone wars era, referring to TCW Sidious, modern times clearly means TCW 
- Databank quote: All past tense, talks about Legacy era and Darth Krayt, Modern times clearly means Legacy seeing as that is the period the OOU narration is coming from mentions Krayt


if you are not convinced now then I'm sorry but that's just dumb.

Why would it affect actualized power at all?  All that happened was Anakin's midichlorians were destroyed, meaning he didn't grow as fast anymore.

Bro, do u know what Midichlorians do, I literally explained in my first post lol, Midichlorians are the conduit in which the force speaks to you, if there is less Midichlorians you have less force power because you have less matter for which the force to channel itself through, it has been confirmed millions of times that Vader lost force power because of this and Lucas confirmed ROTJ Vader and Luke are weaker than TPM Jinn and Kenobi 

George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary wrote:Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor

Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

I dont know what on earth your basis is for that retarded claim but this should clear some stuff up

But it doesn't support you lol.  The entire context of the quote refers to Skywalker potential.  How Anakin was originally supposed to surpass Sidious but failed, then Luke was supposed to surpass Sidious.  It's present tense.

Yeh that's not the same quote that is claiming Anakin = Sidious, the one that says Anakin = Sidious is NOT referring to potential. Besides Anakin not surpassing the emperor doesn't preclude them being equals at all 

Because Nick Gillard has ROTS Yoda (who you hold as inferior to AOTC Yoda) as a tier 9, while ROTS Dooku is a tier 8.

Dooku has never been confirmed to be an 8 outside of non binding Emails, ROTS Yoda is a 9 and so is AOTC Yoda. but that isn't even relevant to the what you are responding to, you claimed C-Canon sources overruled Maul and Jinn being equally matched, even though the sources I cited that state they are evenly matched is G-Canon, so no C-Canon does not override G-Canon at all, god you are stubborn, learn to just concede when you are beaten its a lot more respectable than carrying on blabbering about points that are canonically incorrect 

You don't kill an amped near equal in 30 seconds.  Maul killed a meditation amped Jinn in 30 seconds.  Maul was handling Jinn+Kenobi.  They aren't even close to being portrayed as near equals.

Jinn was tiring and not amped, idk where you got that from lol, anyway its a G-Canon quote soooo... 

oh? so we are all still being retards?

The Fallen Warrior wrote:oh? so we are all still being retards?

isnt this site already like that

The Fallen Warrior wrote:oh? so we are all still being retards?

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Isn't onimi banned