George Lucas Confirms Count Dooku = Master Yoda in Force Power

KelDorianUnit wrote:Bran, did you wipe your arse with that paper?

IG wrote:@Latham2000 Well technically, but unless it’s retconned by Lucas himself, then it doesn’t stand. Irrespectively there’s like a dozen sources calling them equals, so it doesn’t really matter lol.

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:Well the ramifications of this on forum politics and debating as a whole will be interesting to see, to say the least. Here's to a new age: The age of Dooku supremacy over TOR.

Cheers enthusiastically while raising wine glass in celebration.

Azronger wrote:@Latham2000 Also, Lucas listed the Emperor as a 6 as well back then. So going by that, Ben Kenobi is as strong as OT Palpatine, which later lore - Lucas included - retconned.

Azronger wrote:@DarthAnt66 posted the quotes a long time ago. Something about the Emperor being a level 6 (the same as Ben) and wanting to reach level 10. They can probably be found in those old books where they document the making of the films and what ideas George used to have back then.

BoD wrote:@Jake Will get back to you in a bit. Laptop's screwed and going back for maintenance.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:cool cool. idk what to think tbh, since they were never actual equals

Agreed Lorenzo, Dooku is equal to Yoda after fighting off Anakin and Kenobi.

Ziggy wrote:Very Interesting, but this leads me to believe that Yoda wasn't at his peak yet. 

@O-Siri: Nah Yoda's still a level above Dooku. Lucas made that clear in the script:

AotC Script wrote:COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower. YODA attacks! He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat. Wprds are insufficient to describe the range and skill of Yoda's speed and swordplay. His lightsaber his a humming blur of light. Count Dooku's lightsaber is sent cartwheeling from his hand. He staggers back, gasping and spent, against the control panel. YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.     

If Lucas really meant Dooku and Yoda were dead equal in power and not just even enough to not be overpowered, it means his skills were **** compared Yoda and Sidious. 

I'm aware that sourcebook canon doesn't support this - Yoda being weaker with age vs Munturr stones.  But there is some reason to believe that, as per the ROTS novel, that in breaking the veil of the dark side cloud upon discovering and confronting the truth of Sidious, Yoda became stronger than before.  
@O-Siri: Nah he just took Sidious more seriously than Dooku. 
There's too much inconsistency in G-canon otherwise. "To fight this lord Sidious, strong enough you are not.." - Yoda to Kenobi.  But strong enough to fight Dooku's slayer, Kenobi was? While the munchkin Jedi faces his superior?  That despite Anakin being the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi ever at the beginning of the book, yoda is then the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known by it's end?

@O-Siri: Big misconception. The novel prologue isn't OOU, it's putting the reader from the perspective of the besieged Corusanti, reassuring themselves Anakin and Kenobi will save the day. The prologue is describing the reputation of Anakin and Kenobi. Anakin isn't faster than Yoda who can match Sidious's speed who in turn bedazzled Anakin.

Indeed, I think that every one of the protagonists became stronger in ROTS - Mace, Kenobi and Yoda all received some sort of Boon within the book itself. For the two seniors that power might have been a result of realising the Truth.  And for Kenobi, it might be that same factor along with "letting go".

@O-Siri: Mace let go of his Jedi Restraint so yes he became stronger, he always had the capacity though. Kenobi didn't, that's just a bandwagon people jump on to excuse Anakin's lose to a tier 8 opponent who still as per Lucas can't compete with Sidious, he just temporarily unhindered himself. He wasn't anymore powerful than Utapau. After he beat Anakin he went back to feeling guilty for himself just as he was in the beginning of the fight. 
  Though I still maintain that Mustafar Anakin isn't up to scratch with higher incarnations. However, all the Jedi were hindered by the unprecedented saturation of dark side power in the galaxy.

Mustafar Vader is arguably more dangerous than Knightfall Vader. He's more aggressive; more aggressive than even 'Zonakin' and it's stated his power continued to grow after Knightfall. Kenobi beat him because of the favorably style match up and used his superior experience, the latter of which is directly stated by Lucas and Gillard emphasized Anakin's lack of mental mastery. It's as simple as that. He's always been an emotional wreck, his character hinderance isn't situational to Mustafar. 

Latham2000 wrote:As I said earlier, George says you have to be Yoda and Mace to compete with Palpatine in The Making of Revenge of the Sith, so Dooku is leagues below Palpatine, and by extension, Yoda because he is Palpatine's equal. This is very telling of Yoda experiencing power growth between AotC and RotS... unless if you're going to delve into mental gymnastics and argue that Dooku is an exception to this, but that's a horseshit excuse because The Making of Revenge of the Sith is covering the RotS movie time period, and Dooku does appear in the movie itself, so he is by no means exempt from this statement.

SithSauce wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:As I said earlier, George says you have to be Yoda and Mace to compete with Palpatine in The Making of Revenge of the Sith, so Dooku is leagues below Palpatine, and by extension, Yoda because he is Palpatine's equal. This is very telling of Yoda experiencing power growth between AotC and RotS... unless if you're going to delve into mental gymnastics and argue that Dooku is an exception to this, but that's a horseshit excuse because The Making of Revenge of the Sith is covering the RotS movie time period, and Dooku does appear in the movie itself, so he is by no means exempt from this statement.

And this back up by the tiering system. Dooku is just an 8 while Anakin, Mace and Yoda are 9s

Ziggy wrote:Very Interesting, but this leads me to believe that Yoda wasn't at his peak yet. 

I'm aware that sourcebook canon doesn't support this - Yoda being weaker with age vs Munturr stones.  But there is some reason to believe that, as per the ROTS novel, that in breaking the veil of the dark side cloud upon discovering and confronting the truth of Sidious, Yoda became stronger than before.  

There's too much inconsistency in G-canon otherwise. "To fight this lord Sidious, strong enough you are not.." - Yoda to Kenobi.  But strong enough to fight Dooku's slayer, Kenobi was? While the munchkin Jedi faces his superior?  That despite Anakin being the strongest, fastest, most powerful Jedi ever at the beginning of the book, yoda is then the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known by it's end?

Indeed, I think that every one of the protagonists became stronger in ROTS - Mace, Kenobi and Yoda all received some sort of Boon within the book itself.  For the two seniors that power might have been a result of realising the Truth.  And for Kenobi, it might be that same factor along with "letting go".  Though I still maintain that Mustafar Anakin isn't up to scratch with higher incarnations.  However, all the Jedi were hindered by the unprecedented saturation of dark side power in the galaxy.

"Dooku conceded that knowledge of the Force would not decide the contest. Rather, it would be skill with the lightsaber that would separate the two Masters. In this, Dooku was correct. However, he was not to be the victor." -- The Official Star Wars Fact File Issue #103.

> Korriban wrote:Knowledge

SithSauce wrote:If I'm being honest yeh, G-Canon statements makes Star Wars debates less fun