Re: Darth Vader (RoTJ) vs Jaina Solo Fel (FoTJ)

February 27th 2020, 10:17 am

ILS wrote:

IG wrote:Jaina black lightning oneshots.

Does she have POTENT feats with it? Vader holding up to 'killers lightning somewhat after adding insulation to his armor is pretty damn insane.

I was kidding lol.

February 27th 2020, 11:04 am

I have no affiliation with the people saying Vader stomps, it is not my intention to challenge NJO post DE material until I understand more about it

February 27th 2020, 11:16 am Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

BoD wrote:Vader's feats and power growth over short periods of time impress me more than Jaina.

Jaina’s growth has not been outlined yet but I think a comparison can be made which points to rather huge levels of growth between invincible and apocalypse. In the former, and injured Jaina is completely unable to withstand Caedus’ casual attacks (Caedus himself was in terrible shape), Jaina in fact thinks Caedus can downright kill her with one such attack and is shown completely unable to counter his attacks in any meaningful way.

Invincible wrote:All she needed was to get past his lightsaber and attack the armless side of his body-before she collapsed herself, or he recovered enough to kill her with one last Force blast.

This goes in stark contrast to this the quote that has been presented before, I’ll post it again for reference:

Apocalypse wrote:Abeloth's hand flicked and Jaina found herself tumbling down the duct backward. She saw the rectangle of a stack-head flash beneath her; she slammed down and rolled twice before she could finally use the force to bring herself to a stop.”

While Jaina does get her force barrier penetrated (she could have even been taken off-guard) the fact that she’s able to take the worst of it and ultimately bring herself to a stop is a notable achievement, even more so when you consider that she was in bad state physically. I think you’ll agree that even a casual attack from Abeloth would contain immense amounts of power, certainly more than Caedus. And this is the Korelei avatar of Abeloth, the one who, you know, went on to force Luke to go all-out to defeat her. It’s also notable that Abeloth’s intent was to knock out Luke’s party, as evident when she literally one-shots Corran with a bolt of lightning:

Apocalypse wrote:Korelei—or whoever, whatever she was—raised an arm, and a powerful bolt of Force lightning crackled down the run. Taken by surprise, Corran screamed and went down, then lay on the duct floor convulsing and shaking, swaddled in dancing forks of blue energy and unable to free himself.

Granted, this is not to say that Jaina is equally as powerful as Luke or even comparable, but this feat does point to a pretty insane growth rate and cements her as a high tier in force power, and I’m not even sure that Vader can replicate it. It’s your job to prove that Vader’s growth is comparable.

BoD wrote:He also has better mastery of the Force and more knowledge of it, including of more esoteric abilities.

Iirc Vader has rarely made use of said esoteric abilities, in most cases it was circumstantial. Regardless, Jaina has them too, see the back lightning which have proven effective against the force-resistant Vong.

BoD wrote:He should also be more technically skilled

I doubt it. As I already said, there is indication Jaina might be approaching Luke in this regard (Two quotes in the same book).

BoD wrote:While "stomp" is an exaggeration due to Jaina's better speed and agility, he should still win fairly handily on account of him possessing virtually every other advantage, from strength and durability to raw Force power and knowledge.

Jaina’s physical abilities are not to be discounted either. Luke, who has seen Vader in his youth, is impressed by a padawan who can perform feats of speed and control, and likens him to Jaina at her same age (the passage is from crucible)

Spoiler:

This is all the more impressive when one considers Jaina’s growth in power from her young age all he way up to apocalypse, which should be insane and I think she comes out as better than Vader.
Does Vader have more raw power feats? sure. However, Jaina comes out looking better as soon TK feats against a single opponent come into play.

February 27th 2020, 12:40 pm Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

The fact that you have to reach this much to get Jaina anything says it all really.

February 27th 2020, 12:47 pm

Also your text is gigantic. No clout for you Cilghal, but please decrease text size

February 27th 2020, 1:05 pm

It should be alright now, sorry for the inconvenience. To my defense, I typed it on Mobile.

February 27th 2020, 1:14 pm

HeartoftheForce wrote:The fact that you have to reach this much to get Jaina anything says it all really.

Grey ragdolling. Top class argumentation here.

February 27th 2020, 4:20 pm

Only got a few minutes so will reply quickly:

Jaina’s growth has not been outlined yet but I think a comparison can be made which points to rather huge levels of growth between invincible and apocalypse. In the former, and injured Jaina is completely unable to withstand Caedus’ casual attacks (Caedus himself was in terrible shape), Jaina in fact thinks Caedus can downright kill her with one such attack and is shown completely unable to counter his attacks in any meaningful way.

Would you mind elaborating on this? What growth, exactly?

This goes in stark contrast to this the quote that has been presented before, I’ll post it again for reference:

Apocalypse wrote:Abeloth's hand flicked and Jaina found herself tumbling down the duct backward. She saw the rectangle of a stack-head flash beneath her; she slammed down and rolled twice before she could finally use the force to bring herself to a stop.”

Based on how this reads:
Abeloth flicks Jaina away with the Force.
Jaina's sent flying.
It takes her a fair few seconds to bring herself to a stop, and I doubt she instantly stopped in place, more like slowed then stopped. Obviously it's still impressive, but it's basically Jaina accelerating the weakening of the force that knocked her away, not directly countering the blast.

While Jaina does get her force barrier penetrated (she could have even been taken off-guard)

Wasn't this a combat situation? Would be a bit weird for Jaina not to have her defences up against a being who mostly uses Force attacks.

the fact that she’s able to take the worst of it

Note that it says "Abeloth's hand flicked". It's a sudden, dismissive gesture, suggesting that she didn't put much effort into it and still sent Jaina flying.

and ultimately bring herself to a stop is a notable achievement, even more so when you consider that she was in bad state physically. I think you’ll agree that even a casual attack from Abeloth would contain immense amounts of power,

Totally agree. It's a solid feat, but not really a good benchmark for an argument against Force users that will focus on her.

certainly more than Caedus.

Depends. If she focused, then sure. If she just went like this:

Darth Vader (RoTJ) vs Jaina Solo Fel (FoTJ) - Page 2 Giphy

It's such a dismissive, effortless exertion of energy that unless she's done a similar action and it's seriously injured or killed other beings (Force users and non-Force users alike), I don't see how it can be quantified. It's like trying to quantify the strength of finger flicking a crumb and knocking it away just by watching it.

And this is the Korelei avatar of Abeloth, the one who, you know, went on to force Luke to go all-out to defeat her.

She clearly didn't consider Jaina much of a threat if she felt a flick of her wrist was enough to dispatch her or at least remove her from the fight. Again, you'd have to quantify exactly how much energy and power Abeloth was exerting here.

It’s also notable that Abeloth’s intent was to knock out Luke’s party, as evident when she literally one-shots Corran with a bolt of lightning:

Apocalypse wrote:Korelei—or whoever, whatever she was—raised an arm, and a powerful bolt of Force lightning crackled down the run. Taken by surprise, Corran screamed and went down, then lay on the duct floor convulsing and shaking, swaddled in dancing forks of blue energy and unable to free himself.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Would you mind elaborating?

Granted, this is not to say that Jaina is equally as powerful as Luke or even comparable, but this feat does point to a pretty insane growth rate and cements her as a high tier in force power,

But why does it? You haven't quantified the power of Abeloth's "flick" beyond referencing Luke going all-out against her, which is a false equivalence.

and I’m not even sure that Vader can replicate it.

Replicate the slowing himself down over a few seconds after being basically flicked away by a dismissive Abeloth? Why not?

It’s your job to prove that Vader’s growth is comparable.

But you haven't provided solid proof or evidence for Jaina's growth.

Iirc Vader has rarely made use of said esoteric abilities, in most cases it was circumstantial.

True. I was more suggesting it as something he could fall back on if he absolutely had to.

Regardless, Jaina has them too, see the back lightning which have proven effective against the force-resistant Vong.

Hasn't all Force lightning proven effective against the Vong? Krayt did it, Luke did it, Jaina did it, and iirc some other Sith did it. I wouldn't class it as especially "esoteric".

I doubt it. As I already said, there is indication Jaina might be approaching Luke in this regard (Two quotes in the same book).

Sorry to ask, but could you find them?

Jaina’s physical abilities are not to be discounted either. Luke, who has seen Vader in his youth, is impressed by a padawan who can perform feats of speed and control, and likens him to Jaina at her same age (the passage is from crucible)

His counterattacks came in whirling bursts of blade and boot, with enough power and misdirection to impress “even the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker.
Always, the egg remained safe. As Luke watched, one of the pursuers, a sixteen-year-old human female, dropped into a tangle of maboo cane. Her hand rose to deliver a Force shove, but the Togorian was already pirouetting past her slender Bith partner, delivering a powerful hip check that knocked the fellow into the path of her attack. The Bith flew off the log backward, his thin limbs flailing wildly as his oversize cranium led the way toward the rocky ground.
The young woman’s eyes brightened in panic, and when she reached out in the Force to cushion her partner’s fall, a sly grin crossed the Togorian’s boxy snout. He waited half a heartbeat for her to bring the Bith under control, then tossed the egg into the air so he could switch to a two-handed lightsaber grip and deflect two of the sniper’s stun bolts into her flank.
The young woman collapsed in a heap, leaving her partner to hit the ground at a safe speed. By then the Togorian had caught his egg and was holding his lightsaber with a single-handed grip.
[…]
“His combat skills are impressive,” said Jaina Solo. Han and Leia’s last surviving child, Jaina was approaching thirty-six. She looked a lot like her mother at the same age, but she wore her dark hair longer, and she had more steel in her eyes than fire. “There’s no doubt of that.”
“There certainly isn’t,” agreed Corran Horn. A short, fit man in his sixties, Corran had wise green eyes, a weathered face, and a gray-streaked goatee. “In fact, I’d say that Bhixen is as good as you were at that age, Master Solo.
He is,” Luke agreed. “And he knows it.

I already acknowledged Jaina's agility edge, but it should be evened out by Vader's sheer strength, durability and power. Applicable technical skill is harder to judge, I'll grant you, but I haven't seen anything from base Jaina comparable to matching rage amped ROTJ Luke for a while before his Zonakin style mega-amp or stalemating SK.

This is also Jaina when she's six. This seems to be just a normal training exercise, so I'm not sure why this is particularly noteworthy. Anakin also had this sort of training, and while Vader isn't as agile as he once was, he's far stronger and far more skilled than he was when he was a kid.

This is all the more impressive when one considers Jaina’s growth in power from her young age all he way up to apocalypse, which should be insane and I think she comes out as better than Vader.

But none of these are indicative of any massive power growth. They're either vague attempts to quantify clearly effortless Force attacks or scaling and logic you claim makes her a match for Vader that I can't quite follow

Does Vader have more raw power feats? sure. However, Jaina comes out looking better as soon TK feats against a single opponent come into play.

Why? Vader uses his TK a lot to subdue his opponents, including attacking them from multiple directions simultaneously. Even a couple of months post-Mustafar Vader did this against Roan Shryne, a Jedi swordsmaster. How does Jaina's single showing against a casual Abeloth attack make her TK feats against a single opponent > Vader's?

February 27th 2020, 9:31 pm

Basically what bod said

February 28th 2020, 12:27 am

@BoD

I haven't seen anything from base Jaina comparable to matching rage amped ROTJ Luke for a while before his Zonakin style mega-amp or stalemating SK.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong? Vader never "matched rage amped ROTJ Luke" he was explicitly equal to Luke's base self, and as per the comic as well as other sources, when Luke was enraged "the advantage shifted to him". He never stalemated SK either, he held his own against an exhausted Starkiller in TFU 2 who is clearly far beyond him while not exhausted given that, that iteration of SK overpowered an army that could have "easily" beaten him. Oh, and in TFU 1 he got stomped. Darth Vader (RoTJ) vs Jaina Solo Fel (FoTJ) - Page 2 228124001

Darth Vader (RoTJ) vs Jaina Solo Fel (FoTJ) - Page 2 228124001

February 28th 2020, 12:30 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

BoD wrote:Would you mind elaborating on this? What growth, exactly?

It’s what I’ve tried to explain in the entire post , you’ve missed the point. It’s not a growth that is referenced in the books, but it’s based on a comparison that does hold some value for sure. Jaina thinks Caedus at his weakest (missing an arm, with a stabbing wound and several other debilitating injuries) could kill her and she gets dismissed several times effortlessly (link for all the quotes). she doesn’t even consider the option of defending against such an attack.

BoD wrote:Wasn't this a combat situation? Would be a bit weird for Jaina not to have her defences up against a being who mostly uses Force attacks.

It’s impossible to say for sure, hence why I said may. However, the fact that Jaina was able to use the force only at the end means that she was not given time to muster up a defense before, which supports my idea.

BoD wrote:It's a sudden, dismissive gesture, suggesting that she didn't put much effort into it and still sent Jaina flying.

Never did I claim it wasn’t, even if the presence of a hand gesture doesn’t make it entirely effortless. My point is that an attack from Abeloth, specifically an avatar which Luke notes has “powers beyond comprehension”, casual or not, would contain much more power than an even more effortless one from Caedus, the difference being than in this case Jaina is able to recover as soon as she’s able to use the force, whereas against Caedus she could not. Abeloth wanted to knock Luke’s party out, which she achieved against Corran. It is also quite interesting that as soon as Jaina recovers from the attack Abeloth decides to escape.

BoD wrote:Totally agree. It's a solid feat, but not really a good benchmark for an argument against Force users that will focus on her.

My point is that I don’t think Vader can replicate it, especially when one considers that Jaina was exhausted at the time, and “felt her body burning inside out”

BoD wrote:It's such a dismissive, effortless exertion of energy that unless she's done a similar action and it's seriously injured or killed other beings (Force users and non-Force users alike), I don't see how it can be quantified. It's like trying to quantify the strength of finger flicking a crumb and knocking it away just by watching it.

Abeloth has been able to ragdoll Ben Skywalker, Dyon Stadd, Ahri Raas and Vestara Khai with even more effortless exertions. In the Ben’s case specifically, he was knocked unconscious, and by the same avatar that Jaina faced.

Apocalypse wrote:The order came to a strangled end as he felt himself flying back into the arcade. His shoulders hit a pillar dead-center, folding so far backward that both shoulder blades touched stone. Then a tremendous crack sounded inside his skull, and his head exploded into dark pain. He felt himself sliding down the pillar toward the cobblestones below, and the last thing he saw was Vestara retreating toward the Font of Power, disappearing into the yellow steam with the avatar close behind

By contrast, against Jaina she did not succeed and opted to escape.

BoD wrote:She clearly didn't consider Jaina much of a threat if she felt a flick of her wrist was enough to dispatch her or at least remove her from the fight. Again, you'd have to quantify exactly how much energy and power Abeloth was exerting here.

See above.

BoD wrote:Sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Would you mind elaborating?

Of course. My argument is that, just like with Corran, I believe Abeloth’s attack was released with a lethal intent or at least meant to knock out Jaina. After all, Luke was a clear threat and soon as Korelei is left facing Jaina and Luke together she decides to escape.

BoD wrote:But you haven't provided solid proof or evidence for Jaina's growth.

Addressed above

BoD wrote:True. I was more suggesting it as something he could fall back on if he absolutely had to.

With circumstantial I mean in the presence of a nexus, but that’s fair.

BoD wrote:Hasn't all Force lightning proven effective against the Vong? Krayt did it, Luke did it, Jaina did it, and iirc some other Sith did it. I wouldn't class it as especially "esoteric".

Jaina’s black lightning is an unusual power, though to be fair they can be classified as simple lightning of a different color. Hat said, considering that it took force users of that caliber to defeat the Vong with lightning it does speak to Jaina’s power. If she decides to use them, Vader is screwed.

BoD wrote:Sorry to ask, but could you find them?

Of course.

Apocalypse wrote:All Luke's team had to do was take out that shield generator.
On most days, that would have been an easy job for two Jedi Masters and Jaina Solo, who, as the Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and time again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order."
[…]
"Maybe Luke had sensed the danger and forced the issue--or maybe he had been their true target all along. Perhaps they feared Luke Skywalker that much.

And that was a mistake.

Luke Skywalker was not the Sword of the Jedi. Jaina was, and now the Sith had trapped themselves inside a locked Temple with her."

Both quotes are likely part of the narration and are said around the same moment in which Luke decides to give Jaina the rank of master, and right before the feat we’ve been discussing takes place. Interesting, isn’t it?

BoD wrote:I already acknowledged Jaina's agility edge, but it should be evened out by Vader's sheer strength, durability and power. Applicable technical skill is harder to judge, I'll grant you, but I haven't seen anything from base Jaina comparable to matching rage amped ROTJ Luke for a while before his Zonakin style mega-amp or stalemating SK.

The feat we’ve been discussing before is more than enough for me. Unfortunately Jaina has always suffered from a lack of feats, but I think by Apocalypse it seems obvious where they were going with her. Also, Vader wasn’t really matching enraged Luke, but that is a discussion for another time.

BoD wrote:This is also Jaina when she's six. This seems to be just a normal training exercise, so I'm not sure why this is particularly noteworthy. Anakin also had this sort of training, and while Vader isn't as agile as he once was, he's far stronger and far more skilled than he was when he was a kid.

Once again you’re missing the point. It takes a lot to impress Luke in his most powerful incarnation, especially since Luke has seen Vader going all out against him. that’s what I’m trying to say. And Jaina by her legends prime is vastly better than that.

BoD wrote:But none of these are indicative of any massive power growth. They're either vague attempts to quantify clearly effortless Force attacks or scaling and logic you claim makes her a match for Vader that I can't quite follow

I don’t see how that’s reaching. It’s a simple comparison where an exhausted FOTJ Jaina comes out as looking a lot better than a barely injured Invincible Jaina.

BoD wrote:Why? Vader uses his TK a lot to subdue his opponents, including attacking them from multiple directions simultaneously. Even a couple of months post-Mustafar Vader did this against Roan Shryne, a Jedi swordsmaster. How does Jaina's single showing against a casual Abeloth attack make her TK feats against a single opponent > Vader's?

Maybe because Abeloth is a lot more powerful than Vader? Vader as of ANH was outclassed by old Ben Kenobi and I’m not even sure prime Vader is beyond TPM Maul.
Jaina has:
>By far the greater potential, stated to be the same as Jacen’s.
>superior technical skill, as seen against Caedus (I can elaborate if you want) and is even better by Apocalypse.

February 28th 2020, 4:20 am

"Outclassed by Old Ben Kenobi". Even though they fought as equals in ANH and one credible account (the novelization) has Vader legit beating Kenobi in single combat. Out classed my ass

February 28th 2020, 4:27 am

And another source has Ben throwing the fight lol. Chee has Ben > Vader, as does Lucas.

February 28th 2020, 4:44 am

Chee doesn't have Ben > Vader. The tweet you're referring to is Chee echoing someone asking him about the Lucas quote. It's not him making a statement on the matter. In fact he says he doesn't track power levels at all.

February 28th 2020, 4:47 am

IG, just stop involving Chee, you fail miserably at that.

February 28th 2020, 6:24 am

HellfireUnit wrote:IG, just stop involving Chee, you fail miserably at that.

Wow HU, really ragdolling. Great argument, thanks!

February 28th 2020, 6:29 am

HP wrote:SK overpowered an army that could have "easily" beaten him.

Alright, I'll bite. SK's opinion of his clones matters to me why?

February 28th 2020, 6:30 am

Isv wrote:

HP wrote:SK overpowered an army that could have "easily" beaten him.

Alright, I'll bite. SK's opinion of his clones matters to me why?

Easily beaten Vader lol.

February 28th 2020, 6:35 am

IG wrote:

Isv wrote:

HP wrote:SK overpowered an army that could have "easily" beaten him.

Alright, I'll bite. SK's opinion of his clones matters to me why?

Easily beaten Vader lol.

According to the Prima, you turn the clones against him and he ragdolls them...

wouldn't say they can "easily" beat him

February 28th 2020, 8:47 am

HeartoftheForce wrote:Chee doesn't have Ben > Vader. The tweet you're referring to is Chee echoing someone asking him about the Lucas quote. It's not him making a statement on the matter. In fact he says he doesn't track power levels at all.

You are a life saver, I tried to find the full quote in context but the original tweets were deleted!
@IG This is what I meant when I said the quote was pulled out of context on the showdown thread.

February 28th 2020, 9:29 am

Isv wrote:

IG wrote:

Isv wrote:

HP wrote:SK overpowered an army that could have "easily" beaten him.

Alright, I'll bite. SK's opinion of his clones matters to me why?

Easily beaten Vader lol.

According to the Prima, you turn the clones against him and he ragdolls them...

wouldn't say they can "easily" beat him

SK's opinion matters, because he has a gauge on both their power levels - having engaged Vader in the opening stages of the game, and having fought the army of Starkiller clones - there's no reason to discount it. As for you turning the clones against him, you can't turn the whole army against him lmao, making that point totally irrelevant, as SK doesn't comment on individual clones - or even small groups of clones - he only mentions that en masse they could have "easily overpowered" Vader. Moreover, I don't get why you're defering to the Wii game when it depicts an exhausted Starkiller fighting an army of clones and Vader simaltaneously lol.

February 28th 2020, 9:44 am

^ To add to the above - if you read the full context of the passage - you don't get the impression SK is wrong (that's indicated nowhere), and I don't really think that it was the writer's intent.