SoD Maul vs Count Dooku

Matt Martin clarified that the Legends quote? When you said Legends did you mean that Chronicles quote or the AEYNK list?

Latham2000 wrote:Matt Martin clarified that the Legends quote? When you said Legends did you mean that Chronicles quote or the AEYNK list?

the list. the ranking.  martin said that TPM Maul > Tyranus.

i am not using this as a source in this debate.  i am using it to help clarify the Chronicles quote because the Chronicles quote seems to cause consternation.

The list in of itself is from a different continuty though, so it's not worth using to clarify the Legends quote.

@ILS The quote is grammatically unclear. As far as I understand, both interpretations can be correct. The hypothetical example you provided reads and can be interpreted the same way as the Maul quote. I don't see a reason why your take should be favored over the other one. But perhaps someone more well-versed in the English language could clear the waters here.

Azronger wrote:@ILS The quote is grammatically unclear. As far as I understand, both interpretations can be correct. The hypothetical example you provided reads and can be interpreted the same way as the Maul quote. I don't see a reason why your take should be favored over the other one. But perhaps someone more well-versed in the English language could clear the waters here.

and i cleared it up with martin's quote.  it is a current quote, and i am not using it as a source.  i am using it to add clarification.

SW debating is at its most annoying when it become a game of semantics, so I'm not sure how to interprete the Chronicles quote.

Latham2000 wrote:The list in of itself is from a different continuty though, so it's not worth using to clarify the Legends quote.

I just replied to this and didn't allow the page to redirect me, and I now can't find my reply.  I'll answer again, and if it ends up being a double reply, then I'll delete the previous one.  or this one.  one of these.

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iirc, i asked what was the difference in continuity of maul's character?  tcw maul was resurrected and insane - healed by talzin for the most part, but he was hell bent on revenge against kenobi.  disney brought him back and he is basically the very same character except now maul has added sidious to his revenge list because sidious killed his mother and brother...in legends.  what differences do you see in maul in rebels and solo that differ from tcw maul?  or sod maul?  other than age.

@azronger grammatically, you can interpret the sentence in more than one way, but ILS' interpretation is just as fair as anyone's.  however, we do have a source for clarification, and it also fits into the legends history/bio of darth maul.  as of tpm, maul was definitely at least one of the greatest force combatants and duelists.  maul  definitely had the potential to surpass sidious.  maul and vader are very similar characters, only anakin's potential was greater, however, sidious did not know of anakin until tpm.  sidious thought maul was the best there was in the galaxy to be his apprentice.  he never tried to turn dooku to become his apprentice until events of tpm (even in reading darth plagueis).  in tpm novelization, sidious was sans apprentice when maul supposedly died, and in legends, this novel should have more authority than other books, any in c canon.  sidious was sick when he thought maul had died.  in other books sidious would get sick or have anxiety attacks when he thought maul had died or that maul had to die.  reason?  because he had put so much effort into maul becoming his successor.  maul *had* to be all sidious was and more in order to do that.  sidious was sure maul could.  dooku would never have been able to unseat sidious. not in his wildest dreams.  dooku was already dealing with fatigue issues (rots novel), whereas we never see this in sidious.  dooku was going downhill and fast regardless of what type duelist he was.  the fact of the matter is that tpm maul and tyranus were exceedingly similar.

even lucas has placed them on some type level together, which he did in the 2005 rolling stones interview.  he said that when kenobi cut down vader on mustafar that vader was now like dooku and maul.  this would have been rots dooku and tpm maul, i would think because lucas said this a month after rots was released.  <-- there.  that is your legends source for clarification of the Chronicles quote, @latham2000.  this puts maul and dooku relatively equal.  this should help somewhat with the word "perhaps".  and now we move forward to SOD maul, who only increased in power.  tpm maul = rots dooku (or above in canon).  sod maul > tpm maul.  ergo sod maul > rots dooku.

Latham2000 wrote:The list in of itself is from a different continuty though, so it's not worth using to clarify the Legends quote.

this was using TCW images, etc.  pretty much same continuity in many regards, and not in others.  however, the maul character was brought back and was canon at the time and now legends.  argue all you want to.  it's pretty evident.  i honestly see little difference in the legends maul and canon maul.  legends maul was resurrected and insane.  his mind was never the same again because all he focused on was revenge.  same for disney canon.  what is inherently different in tcw maul and rebels maul except for age?  he's still badass and powerful, but he's lost in his own head searching for revenge.  oh ok.  one difference is that now the sith are added to his list for revenge because sidious killed his mother and brother...in legends.

You're completely missing the point of what I was saying. Yes TCW and TCW exists in both continuities, but neither continuities are one and the same. You can't use a 2015/2019 canon book that's unrelated to a 2005 Legends book, to clarify what it's saying about Maul in relation to Dooku, because the AEYTK book isn't a commentary on the Chronicles book, and the Chronicles book is specifically referring to TPM era, the best case scenario is for that book is that TPM Maul is better than TPM Jedi Dooku, but it doesn't include AotC/RotS Dooku. This line of thought xan also be used against Maul because there are at least 3 Legends sources outright saying that Dooku is better than TPM Maul, then we have a mess of contradictions to deal with, and this it isn't even a composite thread anyway. This site doesn't do composite thread unless the OP says so, standard rules are that we are debating Legends. If you want to do composite, then creating a new thread is the way o go

Latham2000 wrote:You're completely missing the point of what I was saying. Yes TCW and TCW exists in both continuities, but neither continuities are one and the same. You can't use a 2015/2019 canon book that's unrelated to a 2005 Legends book, to clarify what it's saying about Maul in relation to Dooku, because the AEYTK book isn't a commentary on the Chronicles book, and the Chronicles book is specifically referring to TPM era, the best case scenario is for that book is that TPM Maul is better than TPM Jedi Dooku, but it doesn't include AotC/RotS Dooku. This line of thought xan also be used against Maul because there are at least 3 Legends sources outright saying that Dooku is better than TPM Maul, then we have a mess of contradictions to deal with, and this it isn't even a composite thread anyway. This site doesn't do composite thread unless the OP says so, standard rules are that we are debating Legends. If you want to do composite, then creating a new thread is the way o go

You missed part of what all I said.  Besides the fact that I said I was not using Martin's statement as a source, I did end up saying forget it and instead used a quote from Lucas made prior to, a decade prior to, the Disney purchase.  

Also, you are the one who said there was a break in continuity.  I just asked how the character changed out of curiosity.  I *do* understand what you were saying.  I do *not* misunderstand you.  

We have a reference book (BtS - and the saber stats were superseded) that outright places TPM Maul > ROTS Tyranus in raw power *and* Force skill.  However, that doesn't even matter because the OP is about SOD Maul.  TPM Maul only became more powerful and over the years, and Dooku wouldn't have the stamina (ROTS)  to stand up to SOD Maul even if they were equal.  Regardless of this, it doesn't matter what Legends sources say what, and it doesn't matter who is referenced in Chronicles book, because they are all C canon.  Lucas said TPM Maul and ROTS Dooku are...roughly... the same, or he implied it in 2005 when he said that Vader was now on level with them.  George canon >> C canon.

Heathen wrote:You missed part of what all I said.  Besides the fact that I said I was not using Martin's statement as a source, I did end up saying forget it and instead used a quote from Lucas made prior to, a decade prior to, the Disney purchase. 

Fine by me.

Heathen wrote:Also, you are the one who said there was a break in continuity.  I just asked how the character changed out of curiosity.  I *do* understand what you were saying.  I do *not* misunderstand you. 

The break in continuity is that there are Legends sources saying that Dooku is better than TPM Maul, whereas the AEYNTK list saying that TPM Maul is better than Dooku is a Canon source, there's the difference. Blending in both continuities that disagree with each other on Dooku in relation to TPM Maul is a dead end.

Heathen wrote:We have a reference book (BtS - and the saber stats were superseded) that outright places TPM Maul > ROTS Tyranus in raw power *and* Force skill.  However, that doesn't even matter because the OP is about SOD Maul.  TPM Maul only became more powerful and over the years, and Dooku wouldn't have the stamina (ROTS)  to stand up to SOD Maul even if they were equal.  Regardless of this, it doesn't matter what Legends sources say what, and it doesn't matter who is referenced in Chronicles book, because they are all C canon.  Lucas said TPM Maul and ROTS Dooku are...roughly... the same, or he implied it in 2005 when he said that Vader was now on level with them.  George canon >> C canon.

I can see why TPM Maul would be better than RotS Dooku in raw power because he has Sidious+ level potential, but raw power and actualised power are not one and the same. Force skill and actualised power are not one and the same either, and we have a quote saying that Dooku is more powerful than TPM Maul anyway. And George Lucas doesn't imply that TPM Maul and RotS Dooku are roughly the same, and the context of the quote is about how Vader's injuries weaken him to the point he's not as strong as the Emperor, but is like Dooku or Maul, who are weaker than the Emperor. Vader, Dooku and Maul can all be weaker than the Emperor, they don't have to be roughly on the same level to be weaker than the Emperor. So the Lucas quote doesn't contradict the C Canon sources at all unless if you're dealing in absolutes and forcing contradictions that don't really exist in the first place.