SoD Maul vs Count Dooku

@Quorian Debatist let's go through it then. I not only think my points have merit, but I also don't believe there is enough evidence from the comic to suggest that Talzin and Sidious were stalemating, or that there is any indication that there was so much time between Maul and Dooku's contributions that it went from a stalemate to a wtfstomp as quickly as some have suggested. Also, I'm not sure if you're conflating my argument with something killbilly has said, because this has been my basic stance since SoD came out. So that might be leading to some confusion.

"He won't survive this."
"Mother will be whole soon, but the process could weaken her. I'll make sure her chambers are ready."  
"Mother sacrificed much of her own form to resurrect me. [...] "For her, a complete and permanent return to the physical realm requires great sacrifice. Through your blood a new power will rise from the roots of Dathomir"- notice that Maul is still talking about what will happen, and how they expect not only Dooku to die but Talzin to rest after. Immediately following Maul saying this the draining is ended prematurely and Talzin instead possesses Dooku.




Just as an added note here, when Maul himself was first resurrected, he took a bit of time getting used to doing normal things again such as TKing a lightsaber to his hand. He wasn't immediately ready to jump into a fight. So I imagine being dead and then suddenly thrust into someone else's or your own body could cause a similar problem. However, since the comic doesn't explicit state this, we don't have to take it as a fact, just a suggestion. Next Sidious blasts Talzin's spirit out of Dooku's body, which would obviously weaken Dooku: I'm unsure if it would weaken Talzin.


And I'll grant you that she says "I am whole, I have returned" - whether that negates what was said above I'm unsure. Whole compared to what? Her former full power? Or being dead? Could be part of why Viscus suggested she will need to rest?

Now for the fight:
So page one, they are as good as stalemating. On the second to last panel on page 2 you could argue that it looks like Sheev is winning - the angle of the middle panel simply shows Sheev shooting out lightning, whereas the following panel unintentionally or otherwise is showing Talzin as being on the losing end of the beam struggle, with Sheev's lightning getting closer to her - and if it was a stalemate at this point why would it show Sheev's lightning encroaching on Talzin in her panel, the angle being not from her perspective but looking towards her from the direction Sheev's lightning is coming from, opposed to Sheev who is simply blasting lightning in his panel? In the panel immediately following, Talzin's hands for the first time go from pointing outward to indicate lightning, to palms up to suggest she's holding a barrier. At this point Maul gives her strength. Third page, Dooku at what could easily be the same time as Maul adds his lightning to the mix. Talzin then is fully losing and is clearly holding up a barrier.




You certainly could argue that it was a perfect stalemate until the precise moment Dooku added his lightning, at which point it became a rout, and that interpretation isn't exactly easy to disprove due to the fact it's couched in a comic with extremely streamlined fight scenes where everything happens very quickly. But it's not exactly made clear either, so I'm unsure why it's an interpretation people defend with such vigor, aside from the wank.

Anyway, just to make my point clear, let's compare what Talzin looks like during a close up when she's shooting lightning and when she's holding up a barrier.

Lightning:


Barrier:



And this is the position of her hands before/as Maul adds his power to the fight (perhaps indicating he thought she needed it???). Not to mention, you see a clear difference between the energy effects in the image above where she is shooting lightning at the start (straight jagged lines) and the panel below where the energy is more smooth and curved like a barrier or shield, with the energy appearing more as a flat wall than lightning moving forward.


So yeah, I think it's entirely possible that Sheev was just better than Talzin, that she wasn't even at her full power going into the fight, and that she was already losing as Maul and Dooku added their powers. And as I mentioned before, if you have two tier 9s fighting, and tier 8s helping them, one of the tier 9s being weakened or inferior is going to count for more than one of the tier 8s being weakened.

And on the incredikillbilly angle, does that not work in reverse? Are we to believe that Talzin would need anything less than full power to tackle Sheev? You feel comfortable in assuming that we're ignoring the possibility that Sheev is just outright more powerful, indicating that this is the more logical approach, so why can't it be that Talzin had to be at full power to engage him? Her being weakened was only a possibility afterall that he seemed to think would be combated with rest afterwards. Yet when she regained her form, we had no indication that she was actually weakened. All she said was that she were "Whole" and proceeded to engage in a lengthy force battle with the most powerful Sith Lord of all time. Surely she didn't seem weakened in that instance. And it wasn't fact at the time either, just like Dooku didn't have to die to make her whole again. Again, not definitive enough.

On the contributions angle, you're thinking of it like mega TOR/DBZ scaling and that you need overwhelming power to overpower a beam - mind you, not sure how that helps you in that case - and that the side characters are irrelevant because they're not as powerful as the main. To put this theory to the test, who would win these force battles if they engaged in a "beam struggle?"

Obi-Wan/Yoda vs Yoda
Sheev/Xanatos vs Sheev
Maul vs TPM!Kenobi/Maul
Dooku vs Dooku/Ahsoka

Would it be a perpetual stalemate or would one side edge or stomp the other? Surely these characters aren't that infinitesimal that their contributions would be only 0.0 percents. Let alone Dooku/Maul.

If we can judge two characters to be equal powers purely off beam struggles, then we can judge one side to be more powerful based off of winning said struggle, no? If Talzin and Sheev are stalemating and Maul helps Talzin and a weakened Dooku helps Sheev, we would expect both parties to continue the stalemate if they were of equal powers, no? In that event it seems more like it's a case of Maul vs Dooku to me, and who can contribute more to the ongoing stalemate.

Sheev vs Talzin = stalemate
Sheev/Dooku vs Talzin/Maul = Talzin put entirely on the defensive to a point where she stops getting Maul to help and throws him away so he lives

You're not actually wrong about most of what you're saying here, the issue is that your argument - that Dooku changed a stalemate to a rout - is rested entirely on the idea that Talzin was perfectly stalemating Sheev and was not ever going to lose, or indeed, that the comic did not indicate she was losing. But as I pointed out above, it does appear she was losing, and that's hardly an unreasonable interpretation given that Talzin was likely to be weakened even if the draining ritual wasn't interrupted. Again, it required a "great sacrifice" and they expected Dooku to die from it, but it was interrupted. Talzin's accoladed in a vacuum, pre-SoD as being able to go "toe to toe" with Sidious, so if she is weakened, then that indicates she would be in an inferior position going into this fight.

Besides, I'm not aware if it's clear how any of these mechanics work anyway. Is Maul adding his strength to Talzin seemingly to reinforce her barrier more or less useful than Dooku blasting Talzin with lightning? Is it easier or harder to block lightning with a barrier or tutaminis than it is to simply shoot lightning? Is being on the defensive easier or harder than being on the offensive?

If we dip into other sources, 1. Blocking lightning with tutaminis is meant to be "almost impossible", granted that is a legends source, and 2. It's always been a theme that the dark side is a shortcut to power, easier and quicker, whereas Jedi have to work harder to achieve the same power. They are using less violent tools and a more difficult means of achieving power to achieve the same results, as seen in the Yoda-Sidious case. So with that being the case, and it seeming pretty likely from the comic art that Talzin had already transitioned to using a barrier at the moment Maul lent her strength, then is it not also fair to think that Talzin's job got even harder from this point on while she was already losing? A bad situation getting worse? And if that is the case, Maul reinforcing her barrier is a less profitable expenditure of energy than blasting with lightning? We could go further into quotes talking about how magicks are inferior to the arts the Jedi and Sith use, but I don't think that's necessary and I can't really remember the quotes, but maybe someone particularly passionate about this could go dig them up. And that is important because if Maul was empowering a witch using an inferior brand of the Force then his contribution would count for less even if it was equal to Dooku's.

However, Mace Windu after getting EFFORTLESSLY held off by Darth Maul - when he had Aayla on his side - still thought Dooku was the master in the Maul relationship. Which would help reinforce that Dooku was indeed a bit above Maul.

That's fine. As I have already said, I have Dooku a bit above Maul already. And it's obvious why Mace would jump to that conclusion - Dooku is Maul's senior, so being the more experienced of the two by like 50+ years it makes sense he would be the one training him if they have no other leads to go on. And if Dooku is a bit more powerful than Maul then that also allows for that. But that doesn't have to create as big a gap between them as your argument seems to be suggesting, it simply requires Dooku to be marginally more powerful and knowledgeable, which he probably is. It doesn't suggest they are a tier apart, in the Gillardian sense or otherwise, and I don't think you think that either.

ILS wrote:@Quorian Debatist let's go through it then. I not only think my points have merit, but I also don't believe there is enough evidence from the comic to suggest that Talzin and Sidious were stalemating

ILS wrote:So page one, they are as good as stalemating.

ILS wrote:You certainly could argue that it was a perfect stalemate until the precise moment Dooku added his lightning

The Process COULD weaken her.

It was a possibility, not a fact. They were preparing for her to rest after to heal naturally in case of such an occurrence. It was never stated that she needed to rest; they just had it prepared for her in case of such an event.

Not only that but the need to rest in your chambers implies that you would show signs of exhaustion that you need to go sleep it off. Had she been just slightly weaker or tired, there would be no need to sleep immediately as there were no plans in her immediate future. This would imply some visible physical exhaustion to a point where she needed to be rushed to her chambers immediately. It'd be the difference between carrying on with perpetual essays while tired vs needing help sitting up because you need sugar water for your childhood diabetes.

However, when Talzin was revived, we saw no telltale signs of physical exhaustion. We saw no mention of her being exhausted. She even felt confident against Sheev. More importantly than that, she was stalemating Sheev. You keep trying to write it off as she was weakened, therefore she wasn't stalemating him, but we're discussing that event right now and even you admit there's some merit to that notion. Even if she weren't exactly stalemating him perfectly even, she would have still been holding up Sheev's lightning for an appreciable amount of time. Which, if she were weakened, that would be even more questionable, no? This means Talzin in a weakened state was fighting evenly with Sheev, or Talzin in a weakened state was holding off Sheev for a decent length of time. Both options are still incredible, would you agree? What weakened being was capable of staving off Sheev's Force lightning in a raw power battle? You can add all the context you want, but that's what that amounts to. Either Talzin was at full power, or at a weakened level, and it still doesn't make the showing go away. All the incredikillibillity in the world doesn't simply allow us to pile on enough context to erase it.

So, I'm not entirely sure why you're doubling down on her being weakened. She was weakened enough to where she can still hold off Sheev? Really? Usually, a showing like that would fly in direct opposition to the notion that she's weakened, at least to me anyway.

"You're too weak to accomplish this"
And then you do it.
Proving you wrong not by words, but by your actions.

Basically there's nothing after her revival that would indicate she was weakened. Nor does "I am whole" help either. Her being "whole" was in reference to her draining enough power to regain her physical body. That indicates she needs to hit a threshold before she can create a permanent body out of thin air that she can funnel mega power through. Whole implies a fullness, and again the context shows this when it did something that Exar Kun couldn't do.  



That being said, I do actually understand why you're doubling down. I just don't think it works in this context and circumstances.

You think that her being weakened allows you to argue Sheev overpowered her without direct evidence showing this. She's weakened so naturally, she wasn't stalemating him the entire time. The problem here is that you admit they were stalemating:

Now for the fight:
So page one, they are as good as stalemating. On the second to last panel on page 2 you could argue that it looks like Sheev is winning - the angle of the middle panel simply shows Sheev shooting out lightning

What you're simultaneously arguing is that Talzin was weakened, but her raw power was capable of meeting Sheev's head on and halt it in a complete stalemate for an entire page and change. Does this not denote equal power? How was she capable of stalemating him IN YOUR WORDS if she was only equal to him at her full power? It's not like we have evidence he was playing around and then ramped up later on (what I touched upon earlier). So, we have Talzin after immediate revival capable of instantly summoning up enough power to STONEWALL Sheev for over a page, while weakened. This would put her raw power somewhere on par with him at worst, above him at best. I'm not ready for that, and I doubt you are either.

I don't think arguing she was weakened and stalemating him works. It kind of just disproves the weakened argument on its own. She was so weakened that she'd need immediate bed rest but she can summon up enough raw power to meet Sheev head-on when Maul couldn't even summon his lightsaber after his healing. You could argue stamina I guess, but that seems like a straw grasp if you argue she wasn't weakened in raw power but only in stamina. "She was weakened, just her power wasn't actually lowered any until she ran out of stamina." Which wouldn't exactly divorce her from the possibility in a normal fight either, nor was it shown in the comic until they were pounding at her barrier, maybe.

On that note, Maul was crazy and out of touch with the Force for like 12 years. The only thing he used the Force for was to hold his legs together - which is probably a greater feat than summoning a saber, and you can see pieces floating around his legs too so it seems like he's always doing it... but I digress - while Talzin was actively doing high-level shit the entire time she was "dead." If we're to believe she gave up her body after Daka died, then she performed the Maul ritual and fought Mace while summoning a saber-proof sword instantly without her real body. I'm a little confused about what level of canon we're arguing here, but I will use some canon and Legends sources here, but I'll make a note when diving into canon.

Canon source - iirc it was uploaded right after the comic came out on the original site, but they kept it on the canon site - on the ritual states that Talzin was looking for more power than she originally lost.  Another canon source says she got to full power. And some canon sources stating she was a spirit the whole time.






This would make sense considering the Mace episode where she was looking for more power than any Jedi or Sith with the spirit shit. I haven't rewatched the episode in a while so I'll stave off guesswork here until I'm forced to watch it.

Basically even with everything intact, it's still very much within the realm of possibility that she returned to her original power without "completing" the ritual.





Back to Legends sources. As you well know it was stated she was in her heart of power. Dathomir was a unique place in the Force as well.







The importance of this is that very much like a Jedi, she can commune with the spirits to heal herself, so even if she were weakened, she can sustain herself with her magic. Much like a Jedi, this isn't ideal in the long term - hence bed rest - but in the short term, it would mitigate any possible weakness which would then in turn conceivably allow her to test her raw power against Sheev. Imagine if such a thing happened.




So in addition to her being at her most powerful on Dathomir, her being in her heart of power, her being able to stave off weakness, her stating she was whole, and her stalemating Sheev for a decent length of time, it's very possible that was her max normal power on Dathomir.

ILS wrote:Now for the fight:
So page one, they are as good as stalemating. On the second to last panel on page 2 you could argue that it looks like Sheev is winning - the angle of the middle panel simply shows Sheev shooting out lightning, whereas the following panel unintentionally or otherwise is showing Talzin as being on the losing end of the beam struggle, with Sheev's lightning getting closer to her - and if it was a stalemate at this point why would it show Sheev's lightning encroaching on Talzin in her panel, the angle being not from her perspective but looking towards her from the direction Sheev's lightning is coming from, opposed to Sheev who is simply blasting lightning in his panel? In the panel immediately following, Talzin's hands for the first time go from pointing outward to indicate lightning, to palms up to suggest she's holding a barrier. At this point Maul gives her strength. Third page, Dooku at what could easily be the same time as Maul adds his lightning to the mix. Talzin then is fully losing and is clearly holding up a barrier.


You certainly could argue that it was a perfect stalemate until the precise moment Dooku added his lightning, at which point it became a rout, and that interpretation isn't exactly easy to disprove due to the fact it's couched in a comic with extremely streamlined fight scenes where everything happens very quickly. But it's not exactly made clear either, so I'm unsure why it's an interpretation people defend with such vigor, aside from the wank.

Anyway, just to make my point clear, let's compare what Talzin looks like during a close up when she's shooting lightning and when she's holding up a barrier.

Lightning:


Barrier:


And this is the position of her hands before/as Maul adds his power to the fight (perhaps indicating he thought she needed it???). Not to mention, you see a clear difference between the energy effects in the image above where she is shooting lightning at the start (straight jagged lines) and the panel below where the energy is more smooth and curved like a barrier or shield, with the energy appearing more as a flat wall than lightning moving forward.

Her appearing to be "losing" was just a perspective trick. To me it looks like everything is just the same "stalemate" at various angles and stages throughout said Force battle. There's no emphasis on her losing, or the wave advancing on her besides the perspective. Sheev's lightning was simply closer to the reader and that's why it looked bigger. That's it.


Those hands look the same to me. There's even lightning coming out of her fingers here.



There were energy effects surrounding her hands the entire time as well. A close up that had "curved lines" would be an odd choice for the artist to show that the lightning was... hitting her barrier lightning? Using a face shot to display her losing with no other emphasis seems very unlikely.

Yes, hard to disprove, or in other words the most likely interpretation with the information available. This is the problem with some mediums though. What you want to see is not available to examine fully. You then ask yourself if there was simply something left out because it couldn't possibly mean this, maybe a mistake was made? It can't be that, we're just missing something, etc. As wonderful as comics are, they are also very constricting with action scenes; as proven by the entire series feeling like it's being sped along by a bullet train. What we were given however in this instance certainly seemed to read how I read it though. I think this the most likely scenario, and you think it's possible. If you understand why it's possible then you would also understand why people defend it with such vigor. They think they're right, and sometimes thinking you're right is the only justification you need to fight to the e-death. Sometimes wank and thinking you're right coalesce into an unfortunate nightmare like many creatures here. No need to name names as I'm sure we can think of quite a few names that fit this mold off the top of our head.

In my case, Maul is one of my top 3 favorite characters. It's just that I don't think your reasons are enough to change the perceived narrative I view the comic under. Maybe some vigor IDK. I threw myself for a loop next post though and enjoyed it very much in any case.

ILS wrote:So yeah, I think it's entirely possible that Sheev was just better than Talzin, that she wasn't even at her full power going into the fight, and that she was already losing as Maul and Dooku added their powers. And as I mentioned before, if you have two tier 9s fighting, and tier 8s helping them, one of the tier 9s being weakened or inferior is going to count for more than one of the tier 8s being weakened.

Well, those two tier 8s are still incredibly powerful, and no matter what your interpretation is, they still play a big role in the events. Are we looking at this as TOR ragdoll tier gaps, or are we looking at this in the media it was based on - The Clone Wars/Movies to where the gaps weren't as exaggerated? I believe you don't think Sheev is powerful enough to casually ragdoll Maul through his barriers, so why wouldn't you think he could turn the tables in an even Force battle? You evidently think he's fairly potent, so I don't really follow writing him off like this. He wouldn't be overpowering Sheev, he'd just be supplying enough power to allow Sheev to overpower Sheev. Dooku would be there to counteract this.

ILS wrote:You're not actually wrong about most of what you're saying here,

I am aware.  

ILS wrote:Talzin's accoladed in a vacuum, pre-SoD as being able to go "toe to toe" with Sidious, so if she is weakened, then that indicates she would be in an inferior position going into this fight.

It's actually funny you bring up the accolade of her being able to go toe-to-finger with Sheev. That actually came from Barlow who was very vaguely foreshadowing and almost describing the scene without spoiling it. He touted that Talzin can go toe-to-toe with Sheev, and then wrote it happening. What he stated here was a better description of the fight than most 2nd hand sources are on fights ironically enough.




So yes, Talzin's accolade in a vacuum has her being able to go toe-to-toe with Sheev, and then the same writer wrote that happening. Casts doubt on her being weakened to me. Her accolade is actually about her role in the comic.

ILS wrote:Besides, I'm not aware if it's clear how any of these mechanics work anyway. Is Maul adding his strength to Talzin seemingly to reinforce her barrier more or less useful than Dooku blasting Talzin with lightning? Is it easier or harder to block lightning with a barrier or tutaminis than it is to simply shoot lightning? Is being on the defensive easier or harder than being on the offensive?

If we dip into other sources, 1. Blocking lightning with tutaminis is meant to be "almost impossible", granted that is a legends source, and 2. It's always been a theme that the dark side is a shortcut to power, easier and quicker, whereas Jedi have to work harder to achieve the same power. They are using less violent tools and a more difficult means of achieving power to achieve the same results, as seen in the Yoda-Sidious case. So with that being the case, and it seeming pretty likely from the comic art that Talzin had already transitioned to using a barrier at the moment Maul lent her strength, then is it not also fair to think that Talzin's job got even harder from this point on while she was already losing? A bad situation getting worse? And if that is the case, Maul reinforcing her barrier is a less profitable expenditure of energy than blasting with lightning? We could go further into quotes talking about how magicks are inferior to the arts the Jedi and Sith use, but I don't think that's necessary and I can't really remember the quotes, but maybe someone particularly passionate about this could go dig them up. And that is important because if Maul was empowering a witch using an inferior brand of the Force then his contribution would count for less even if it was equal to Dooku's.

Well, her barrier held out better than her lightning did, so I'm not sure why we'd question the power of her barrier now? If her barrier required a higher expenditure of energy than her lightning, yet can stave off the lightning, then wouldn't it make sense for her to continue the lightning assault? Especially when she can fire lightning through her barrier easily? Falling into defense entirely with no risk of offense seems more like the last case scenario to me. At least in Yoda's case - actual tutaminis - he was absorbing the energy, whereas all she seemed to be doing is creating a barrier that Grievous could walkthrough for whatever reason. You really do not want to fall into pure defense with no offense in a fight. All she could do is stave it off at that point in time, not put Sheev on the backfoot. It is always a bad situation when you forgo any threat of offense entirely and your survival depends on how long you can last. That's not exactly unique to her specific situation. You can assume that without the understanding of barriers.

That being said, we don't know the ins and outs of how her barrier works. However, she put more effort into it than she did to create Savage's weapon or when she pulled the sword out of thin air that could block Mace's saber in spirit form off Dathomir. It also uh... blocked Sheevku's lightning whereas you're arguing her own failed against Sheev pre-Dooku. It's obviously very potent, so I'm not seeing reasons why it would be... weaker than lightning... ?

Even if it requires more power at a base level, there's nothing stopping her from applying that same effort into lightning. Nor would that mean it was weaker either. It would just require more stamina to maintain in that case. We saw they couldn't pierce it so there's no reason to question the power of the barrier. Had she unlimited stamina at the level Maul boosted her at, then it's possible she lasted until someone decided to walk through her barrier sans Grievous. If what you're saying applies, then just think of it as an unbreakable barrier at the level she was boosted that requires a bunch of stamina.

I see where you're going; Maul boosted a lesser power to match a superior power in perfect STONEWALLING and therefore it shows his power more than Dooku's. Neat little twist I'll admit to try and at least throw it into ambiguity. The issue is this assumes she put up her barrier the second Maul touched her shoulder, which I doubt for reasons stated as above so below, and it's also assuming her barrier is inferior just because we liken it to a Jedi technique when she can use both sides of the Force and spirits. We don't have a basis for her specific barrier to fail, and we know she can do some absolutely crazy things with less effort. It was her last-ditch effort that worked for an appreciable amount of time. It worked even with Maul being tossed away, so I'd say it's quite the power tbh.

Again, just seems like not enough info for you to try and lower it like that.



Well, you just said Talzin - who's entire thing is manipulating this "inferior" brand of the Force - was capable of going toe-to-toe with Sheev, was capable of stalemating him while weakened, could create a barrier that was weaker than her lightning to hold of Deevku, amongst other things. I think it's a little late to question how powerful her brand of the Force is.

Not only that, but she states she is literally ripping spirits out of Beyond Shadows and understands that her power is directly connected to Mortis, and applies different aspects to the Son or Daughter. If anything it's a higher understanding with different utilizations of the Force. It's just that she might be a lot shittier off of Dathomir/planets with a lesser connection to spirits. She relies on the spirits to fuel her cool shit, but her power is obviously very potent.

She can manipulate spirits into super durable objects, so I'm not sure why we should question how she could utilize Maul explicitly giving her power? Lest we forget that Talzin was the reason Savage became so powerful in the Force in the first place, or that she empowered Maul with Nightsister magic when she remade him. There doesn't seem to be any loss of efficiency when she's giving or taking from the Force/spirits. Hell if anything her utilization seems to be far more efficient than what she's using to fuel it. Imagine someone using the spirit of weather to fuel a barrier for example. Probably a pretty shitty barrier on paper, but hers evidently was not.







The deeper summoning part was attributed to flying before it gets said. Talzin could do all three acts seemingly pretty effortlessly.

ILS wrote:That's fine. As I have already said, I have Dooku a bit above Maul already. And it's obvious why Mace would jump to that conclusion - Dooku is Maul's senior, so being the more experienced of the two by like 50+ years it makes sense he would be the one training him if they have no other leads to go on. And if Dooku is a bit more powerful than Maul then that also allows for that. But that doesn't have to create as big a gap between them as your argument seems to be suggesting, it simply requires Dooku to be marginally more powerful and knowledgeable, which he probably is. It doesn't suggest they are a tier apart, in the Gillardian sense or otherwise, and I don't think you think that either.

All I'm using is the comic. I'm not arguing gaps, just what I feel is the most likely interpretation of the scene.
That being said, they already thought it possible that Maul was the Sith Master by the time Dooku started training in the Darkside. Also on that note is that they would have to assume Dooku was the Master going back to TPM too which I'm not sure his timeline affords him that, but whatever. Dooku's age also flows into his power anyway. Dude was seemingly above Mace before he left the order and then discovered another side of the Force entirely. His age was had a direct correlation to his power, so waving it off due to age still has strong ties to sheer power.

It seems like power to me, and you conceding power to Dooku would only allow this as a greater possibility. If they thought it was due to power - which you agree Dooku is above Maul - then it creates a Master/Apprentice level gap. What you want to argue that is is anyone's guess, but it's still a gap. And the comic backs that up. You have the example, and you have Mace Windu getting flipped over and being worse than both, but he still thinks Dooku was the stronger one.

Again, don't care about the gaps, especially with how subjective these gaps get. My personal bias doesn't mean I will change my interpretation of the scene to something I don't believe in though. I feel Dooku is comfortably above Maul in the Force, and this mini only reinforced that to me without a straight forward fight. Being comfortably below Dooku is completely meaningless in the grand scheme of things so I care even less about how that screws with anything.

You're really preaching to the wrong guy in a thread full of "ragdolls" here.

That being said. I can't just leave the "perspective tricks" where I left it, can I? Would you buy that excuse? I don't believe you would, so let's put it in practice.

I know how you enjoy getting really autistic about this, so fret not old pal, here is some grade A stuff to prove my point. Seeing all these toy avatars gave me an idea, so let's keep this in the same vein, shall we?

I found some old toys of mine. Sheev represents Sheev. Jesus represents Talzin. The straw represents lightning. The half-cut possible drug bag represents the little bubble effect from the two blasts hitting each other. Nick Guillard represents Dathomir.





It is perfectly in the middle to prove a point. Looking at it from the side, it's as straight as a floppy bag affords. Much like looking at the blast from the side you likely wouldn't notice the clashing shockwave.



Switching angles, however, you can see the face of the shockwave, much like the comic.






I tried to get the angles as close as I could to Talzin's angle without actually looking at the comic. It looks similar enough I feel.



Why this is important is because with some perspective tricks I can manipulate the picture with small scale stuff to completely play tricks on you. Here are some very crude shops to prove my point. I left the originals so you can do the same if you feel the need.










Keep in mind I'm doing this with no actual effects and without inconsistent art. This is just simple stuff, and yet from a similar perspective to Talzin I can make Jesus look like he's losing worse than you think Talzin was. As we saw from the comic, the distance was greater than the perspective tricks would have you believe:




So, no, I don't think the perspective angle of the last panel shows Talzin was losing. All it was was the same angle as the first panel on the same page but zoomed in more. We saw the perspective had cut the distance drastically in the comic for them to appear closer, and we've seen a professionally shot re-enactment of the scene where the Artist can repeat the same trick of making things appear closer or bigger. Judging from the perspective of Talzin "losing" in her panel, it is still quite a distance away from her personnel as per the examples. At the distance, as we saw in the zoom out, it's very possible it was still midway. If I can repeat or make it worse with a 6-inch straw, then imagine the perspective from a bias angle for Sheev from 12 or so feet.

It doesn't work for me. I don't buy it. It's just a very artistic shot and nothing more. We saw them repeat similar shots from larger distances earlier indicating it wasn't unique to get perspective shots like this. Yet you were agreeing with those being stalemates. Yet all the shot of Talzin "losing" was a zoom-in from a similar angle. That angle plays tricks on your mind. Not my mind though.


So, in summation, she wasn't shown to be losing and her actions don't show her to be weakened.

@Quorian Debatist



Contrast the distance between Talzin and Sidious in panel one and panel four: it's greater. To me this indicates one or both of them moved around during the clash, possibly casting doubt on the perpetual stalemate interpretation. But then again, Sidious was backing away from Yoda in their first exchange but was still strong enough to knock the green man off the podium, so I don't really know what to make of this. Thoughts?

Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus. But Yoda had faced Force lightning before. To deflect the first bolts, he had to stop his intended strike at the Emperor. Once his initial surprise was over, he reached out to the living Force. The lightning bent, arcing back toward the Emperor.

“Destroy you, I will,” Yoda said grimly. “Just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.”

The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack. Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.

Like this?



All of the proportions are similar and if I had a bigger figure I feel I could have matched it more exactly. Talzin for example is about 2mm taller than the distance of the lightning for example per what I measured. Obi-Wan is about 1mm taller than the straw. Etc. Camera tricks.

They could have moved around yes, but that doesn't exactly change the distance the middle was from Talzin per that last angle. It still affords her a large amount of breathing room to where she wasn't at the immediate risk of being overwhelmed last we saw her.

Basically this:


Still allows her lightning to be in the middle of this distance:


It doesn't mean it was of course, but that angle doesn't erase that possibility. This is not proof it was advancing on her in other words.

As for the distance, it could have changed from 12 feet to 100 feet to 1000 feet, but as long as it still stays within the middle it really doesn't matter. We don't have proof anything waned or lost ground until Darth Dooku jumped into the fray. Basically when we have both starts of the beams in the picture, we can approximate that the clash happened in the middle, so the distance doesn't matter. Inconsistent art is also always a factor in comics as well, so keep that in mind.



As for Yoda. That was right after he disarmed Sheev so it would make sense that Sheev wants to get away from the armed Yoda. In the comic he tries to block with his saber as well as opposed to full grabby tutaminis:


In the script it just states he blocked it right after:



Combining the three, we can assume he failed because he tried to block with the saber, or he tried to block with one hand/his saber was still active in that moment and Sheev was backing up due to the saber. When Yoda is saberless and putting full attention into bare handed tutaminis Sheev advances on him until it goes kablooey.
Great feat sure, but not exactly the same context and circumstances.

With Talzin he had no real reason to back up. He had a reason to advance however, but then that creates an assumption that he was just backing up and advancing due to the art being absolute in its distance, so meh. I just go with similar distance the whole way through but either way it doesn't impact the Force clash.

If you're fishing for an answer on whether or not I think Talzin was exactly equal to Sheev and it would have never ended; then I think even if they were equal in power that Sheev would have won due to larger reserves. Or due to his durability. Or due to his saber. The key point is that Sheev was stalemating her with whatever power you want to argue he was using until Dooku came in, so what happens in the possible future largely doesn't matter. Dooku came in before those events came into play.

Either way, Sheev is strong going backwards or forwards or standing still, but that doesn't mean he has to be moving in any direction when spamming lightning. Hell, dude watched Galen Marek walk at him with lightning while he was wanking off.

Canon is being used in addition to Legends.  This should be all that needs to matter considering Matt Martin said The Phantom Maul is the Maul listed above Dooku in the rankings of AEYNtK.

SI threads are Legends only unless if the OP sad otherwise, so it's not a composite thread.

Dooku is one of those characters in which he has accolades that aren't exactly anything to write home about but has feats that rival or maybe even surpass the likes of Sidious, Yoda, Anakin etc. He's a strange one

SithSauce wrote:Dooku is one of those characters in which he has accolades that aren't exactly anything to write home about but has feats that rival or maybe even surpass the likes of Sidious, Yoda, Anakin etc. He's a strange one

You mean accolades such as the best Jedi duelist in the Jedi Order's entire 25,000 year history?

Wat? Dooku was never the best Jedi duelist entire 25,000 year history last time I checked, he has these in fact he has an accolade saying that he's eclipsed by Mace and Yoda, meaning that they're the best and Dooku is not.

Latham2000 wrote:Wat? Dooku was never the best Jedi duelist entire 25,000 year history last time I checked, he has these in fact he has an accolade saying that he's eclipsed by Mace and Yoda, meaning that they're the best and Dooku is not.

I wouldn't be so quick to throw Dooku below those guys and out of his range; 

He was a remarkable teacher and, of all those in the Temple, arguably the most skilled with a lightsaber. 

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #12

His progress was exceptional, and many thought he was the deadliest of all the Jedi in combat.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #12

As for Master Dooku vs Mace Windu; 

“You were never able to defeat me at the Jedi Temple, and you won’t defeat me now.”

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels

Before leaving the Jedi Order, he was known as one of the greatest duelists, a match even for Mace Windu.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Villains Flipbook

In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents have ever overcome Master Windu in battle. One was Master Yoda himself, whom some say is the Jedi Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was Master Dooku.

Star Wars Miniatures Revenge of the Sith Preview 1 Mace Windu, Jedi Master

In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

Star Wars: Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him; Yoda, and Dooku. 

Starwars.com - Mace Windu Databank (Old)

His skills with his purple-bladed lightsaber were the stuff of legend, and it was said that he could be defeated in combat only by Master Yoda and the great swordsman Count Dooku.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #33

If you try to handwave the first quote; Dooku's goal with that statement is to get into Mace's head, so why would he attempt that with something that's just flat out untrue, a lie that would have no oomph at all? This is a comment that Windu can instantly determine is false; Dooku isn't lying about the secret death of a friend or events unknown, it's a reference to the past losses that Mace knows all about. If you try to handwave spars; Episode I Kenobi defeated Mace Windu in the Obi-Wan XBOX game, and this is referenced in The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels;

“Need I remind you Master, I have beaten you before”

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels

Despite this, the Prima Guide and all the above sources still repeat the usual 'only Yoda and Dooku' quote;



This means that sources count only legitimate spars as wins or losses, spars where the combatants are going all-out (at least to the extent you can without inflicting great harm). Master Dooku's wins and draws were against a Mace who isn't pulling every punch in every match, all the time.

With all this, it's hard to argue that Dooku was eclipsed while he was still in the Jedi Temple, so Mace likely surpassed him after he left - which makes sense as he's constantly improving his form. If you don't like that, then Dooku is at least close enough to the big 2 to be in the running for the top spot, "arguably" the most skilled, "possibly" the greatest, and racking up wins as Mace sits on a big, fat 0. [hideedit]

@Jake I wasn't aware of the most of these obscure quotes, but they're nice. I thought Jedi Dooku was slightly beneath TPM Yoda/Mace, IIRC it was an in-universe quote, but your sources outnumber it. Mace takes an L.

al7hough i7 says possibly, i do 7hink 7his has qui7e a bi7 of impac7, in addi7ion 7o ma77 mar7in saying 7he ranking was for 7pm maul.  now maul > mace.

Indeed, that quote says Maul is "perhaps" second only to Sidious, meaning that there is an incertainty. Not to mention, it is talking about TPM era, not the entire PT era, because you're quoting a 2005 source, back then Maul was thought to have died on Naboo, until George decided to retconn Maul's death out of boredom in 2009 or 2010.

it still carries merit, and alongside matt martin's recent comment that the ranking was for TPM maul , which placed maul > dooku, i think we can safely now say that sod maul > dooku.  with all of jake's quotes, we can say maul > yoda, windu, and perhaps even god.  (lower case "g").

Latham2000 wrote:Indeed, that quote says Maul is "perhaps" second only to Sidious, meaning that there is an incertainty. Not to mention, it is talking about TPM era, not the entire PT era, because you're quoting a 2005 source, back then Maul was thought to have died on Naboo, until George decided to retconn Maul's death out of boredom in 2009 or 2010.

But where is the uncertainty? It's saying Maul is second only to Sidious, but the perhaps is about whether he is second to Sidious. If Maul is second only to Sidious, that means he is better than everyone else. The perhaps from what I can tell is just saying that there is ambiguity about whether he is really second to Sidious or even better than him.

I'm open to being wrong about this, I'm just not sure exactly what the quote is saying.

Heathen wrote:it still carries merit, and alongside matt martin's recent comment that the ranking was for TPM maul , which placed maul > dooku, i think we can safely now say that sod maul > dooku.  with all of jake's quotes, we can say maul > yoda, windu, and perhaps even god.  (lower case "g").

I hope this is a joke.

The 2005 quote is referring to TPM era though, even if we take it "perhaps" as certain all it proves is that TPM Maul is better than TPM Jedi Dooku, but it doesn't extend to AotC/RotS Dooku because Dooku becomes a better swordsmanship under Palpatine's tutelage, and we know that AotC/RotS Dooku is better than TPM Maul by other Legends sources. The AEYTK list is a canon source, not Legends source, and this forum doesn't do composite threads unless if the OP says so.

ILS wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:Indeed, that quote says Maul is "perhaps" second only to Sidious, meaning that there is an incertainty. Not to mention, it is talking about TPM era, not the entire PT era, because you're quoting a 2005 source, back then Maul was thought to have died on Naboo, until George decided to retconn Maul's death out of boredom in 2009 or 2010.

But where is the uncertainty? It's saying Maul is second only to Sidious, but the perhaps is about whether he is second to Sidious. If Maul is second only to Sidious, that means he is better than everyone else. The perhaps from what I can tell is just saying that there is ambiguity about whether he is really second to Sidious or even better than him.

I'm open to being wrong about this, I'm just not sure exactly what the quote is saying.

The perhaps from what I can tell is ambiguity about whether he is really is second only to Sidious or below second place.

The quote gives us an indication of Maul's ability in Force combat.  I gave Matt Martin's quote not as proof but as support for the Legend's excerpt.   You guys say there is ambiguity, so I offer clarification.

@bod Take it as you will.  I'm not the one who added the Dooku quotes.

Take it as you will.  I'm not the one who added the Dooku quotes.

Regardless of Jake's contribution, I fail to see how you've drawn the conclusion that Maul > Yoda or Mace.

BoD wrote:

Take it as you will.  I'm not the one who added the Dooku quotes.

Regardless of Jake's contribution, I fail to see how you've drawn the conclusion that Maul > Yoda or Mace.

Me having fun with Jakesters!     I'm sure all of you are getting your panties in twists because I said that! LOL  



BTW, What is the quote about Dooku being the greatest duelist or one of the greatest in the Jedi's 25,000 year history?

Latham2000 wrote:

ILS wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:Indeed, that quote says Maul is "perhaps" second only to Sidious, meaning that there is an incertainty. Not to mention, it is talking about TPM era, not the entire PT era, because you're quoting a 2005 source, back then Maul was thought to have died on Naboo, until George decided to retconn Maul's death out of boredom in 2009 or 2010.

But where is the uncertainty? It's saying Maul is second only to Sidious, but the perhaps is about whether he is second to Sidious. If Maul is second only to Sidious, that means he is better than everyone else. The perhaps from what I can tell is just saying that there is ambiguity about whether he is really second to Sidious or even better than him.

I'm open to being wrong about this, I'm just not sure exactly what the quote is saying.

The perhaps from what I can tell is ambiguity about whether he is really is second only to Sidious or below second place.

Yeah... but why? Let's use a hypothetical example and say it's circa RotS:

"An incredible duelist second only, perhaps, to Darth Sidious, Yoda honed his lightsaber skills through a lifetime of training."

If we had that accolade, do you think we would interpret it as leaving the door open for Mace to be > Yoda? Or rather that it's saying the only person who might be better than Yoda is Sidious?

It's saying Yoda is second only, meaning, the only person he is second to is the one who follows this part of the statement, then, perhaps, meaning that whether he is actually second to this person is uncertain, to Sidious.


It's not saying "Maul is perhaps second only to Sidious", it's saying Maul is "Second only, perhaps, to Sidious." 

Or to put it another way, the former would be like saying "Perhaps the greatest duelist ever", whereas the latter would be like saying "The greatest duelist ever barring, perhaps, Sidious."

Anyway, it's a pretty old quote so I'm not sure what to make of it, and I'm pretty sure Sidious is a better duelist than Maul at the time on the basis of Force power, and I'd assume the same would be true of Plagueis - at the time this quote was published, Plagueis' backstory had not been fleshed out and it was assumed that Sidious killed Plagueis and then took Maul as an apprentice, but we know now that Sidious had taken Maul as an apprentice in violation of the Rule of Two. 

But it would imply Maul is better than Yoda, Mace and Dooku at the time. If that's the case then Jinn is probably pretty comparable to those three if a bit weaker.