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Azronger
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:21 am
Darth Tenebrous's protégé faces off against Darth Sidious's myrmidon. Who prevails?

Round 1: TPM Maul

Round 2: TCW Maul
MasterCilghal
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:22 am
With tpm Maul it could go either ways, TCW Maul wins imo
Azronger
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:25 am
@mastercilghal wrote:With tpm Maul it could go either ways, TCW Maul wins imo

Why be that?
SithSauce
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:25 am
Maul wins
Azronger
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:29 am
@Azronger wrote:
Why be that?
MasterCilghal
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:30 am
@Azronger Venamis wasn’t really a match for Plagueis, at least not after the latter started to get serious. Tpm Maul was blitzed by a Sidious who should be a bit more powerful than that version of Plagueis.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:43 am
Maul. All Venamis really has is a contextual fight with Plagueis whereas Maul has actual feats.
xolthol
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 9:48 am
It mainly depend on how you rank Maul in comparison to early Plagueis. To my point: Venamis win.
Azronger
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:08 am
@mastercilghal wrote:@Azronger Venamis wasn’t really a match for Plagueis, at least not after the latter started to get serious. Tpm Maul was blitzed by a Sidious who should be a bit more powerful than that version of Plagueis.

So because Maul was blitzed and stomped far harder by Sidious than Venamis was by Plagueis, Maul wins? I'm afraid I don't follow you.

You're incorrect about Venamis being insufficient to challenge Plagueis, regardless: the Muun was serious from the get-go and concluded that engaging Venamis conventionally would have perpetuated the engagement "indefinitely." His shift in tactics was done in response to Venamis' indomitable swordplay.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:10 am
Venamis likely wins. He was trained for two decades as a full Banite Sith, and was extra-dedicated to lightsaber combat as well, like Tenebrous.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:13 am
ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Maul. All Venamis really has is a contextual fight with Plagueis whereas Maul has actual feats.

That fight is a feat in itself. And Venamis is likely to be the figure Plagueis sensed possessing "near-equal power" to himself.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:14 am
@xolthol wrote:It mainly depend on how you rank Maul in comparison to early Plagueis. To my point: Venamis win.

You're the first person to favor Venamis. What gives him the win over Maul in your opinion?
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LOTL

Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:21 am
At that point, Plagueis is considerably below Tenebrous obviously. There is no way to exactly gauge how high the gap between them is, so TPM Sidious could be much much better than Venamis or he could be considerably better but not enough to stomp him. Basically we can't compare TPM Maul because the parameters are too ambiguous

Unless Az has a method to compare 52 BBY Palpatine to that version of Plagueis, because TPM Maul should be superior to that version of Palpatine

TCW Maul beats him though, based on his battle against Sidious, even though it was a stomp, Maul still managed to hold on for some amount of time( like Anakin enraged vs Count Dooku)

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LOTL

Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:24 am
That and the combined strength of Maul and Savage actually proved enough to somewhat strain him( though not to a properly established degree), but it still should put him beyond Venamis, someone I consider much much inferior to ROTS Sidious
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LOTL

Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:28 am
Hold on, how long was Venamis trained for exactly?
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:28 am
For both say Venamis.

People say Darth Plagueis was pre-prime which was true but forget that this the same Plagueis that had already gone through his first powergrowth from his master's death and the same version that performed his Canted Circle feats - while critically injured and near death no less. Venamis was evidentially powerful and skillful enough not to get telekentically dominated by a fresher version of the same Plagueis that "all but atomized" 12 armored maladians in one sustained Force wave while in critical condititon.

Plagueis was impressed with his skills such as levitating in mid-air after the branch he was standing on was severed - "no mean feat in it of itself" according to Plagueis.

Another thing is to consider is Venamis's potential. Sith apprentices are chosen for their potential to surpass their masters. Venamis was a firm beliver in the old Bane tradition, meaning he would have challenged his master in a fair duel when the time was right. When Zannah realized she had surpassed Bane she started looking for a new apprentice. We know from later in the book that Venamis was secretly looking for new apprentices. This is a good indication Venamis was already close to his peak and prepering to challenge Tenebrous for the title of Dark Lord of the Sith. Venamis being equal or at least near equal to Tenebrous therefore may not be that much of a stretch to sudgest.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:28 am
@LOTL

Two decades IIRC, which is one of the primary reasons he beats TPM Maul at least.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:30 am
@Kilius

I believe Venamis was looking for an apprentice because Tenebrous had died. I may not remember correctly though.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:32 am
@LOTL wrote:At that point, Plagueis is considerably below Tenebrous obviously. There is no way to exactly gauge how high the gap between them is, so TPM Sidious could be much much better than Venamis or he could be considerably better but not enough to stomp him. Basically we can't compare TPM Maul because the parameters are too ambiguous

Unless Az has a method to compare 52 BBY Palpatine to that version of Plagueis, because TPM Maul should be superior to that version of Palpatine

TCW Maul beats him though, based on his battle against Sidious, even though it was a stomp, Maul still managed to hold on for some amount of time( like Anakin enraged vs Count Dooku)


I do, in fact. It's not rock solid, but it's something. Part I Plagueis muses that the technique of Force drain had been lost, but Part II Sidious is seen employing it against a dying animal. The implication is that Plagueis rediscovered the ability and grew enough in power to be comfortable teaching it to his apprentice without fear of premature usurpation, or that Sidious developed the talent on his own in a little over a decade, displaying an immeasurably greater affinity for the dark side over Plagueis, who failed to grasp the power in over a century.

And I concur with TCW Maul's victory here, for the same reason you gave. It's TPM Maul vs. Venamis I'm unsure of.
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LOTL

Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:33 am
No, in that case Maul beats him. Both versions

Maul has had to endure the harshest training and is labelled the most highly trained Sith in history. That and his potential being Sidious level( and that he too trained for two decades puts him as the likely contender to win, holistically speaking.

There is no other way to compare them. Maul beats him by a country mile in terms of feats and comparisons involving Sidious and Plagueis are loose and ambiguous
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LOTL

Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:33 am
@LOTL wrote:No, in that case Maul beats him. Both versions

Maul has had to endure the harshest training and is labelled the most highly trained Sith in history. That and his potential being Sidious level( and that he too trained for two decades puts him as the likely contender to win), holistically speaking.

There is no other way to compare them. Maul beats him by a country mile in terms of feats and comparisons involving Sidious and Plagueis are loose and ambiguous
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LOTL

Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:34 am
Damm quoting. How do you expose the quoting part? It isn't visible until you scroll over it
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:36 am
@Meatpants wrote:@Kilius

I believe Venamis was looking for an apprentice because Tenebrous had died. I may not remember correctly though.

No he was shocked to hear the news when Plagueis informed him:


The Bith nodded. “Even now he awaits my return.”
“Awaits ...,

” Plagueis said. As astonishing as it was to learn that
Tenebrous had trained a second apprentice, he had a surprise in store for
Venamis. Inhaling, he said,

“Tenebrous is dead.”

Confusion showed in Venamis’s eyes. “You wish it were so.”

Plagueis held his lightsaber off to one side, parallel to the ground.
“What’s more, he died by my hand.”
“Impossible.”
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:36 am
TCW Maul should have this, but I'm not sure about TPM Maul.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

on April 28th 2019, 11:37 am
Kilius wrote:For both say Venamis.

People say Darth Plagueis was pre-prime which was true but forget that this the same Plagueis that had already gone through his first powergrowth from his master's death and the same version that performed his Canted Circle feats - while critically injured and near death no less. Venamis was evidentially powerful and skillful enough not to get telekentically dominated by a fresher version of the same Plagueis that "all but atomized" 12 armored maladians in one sustained Force wave while in critical condititon.

Plagueis was impressed with his skills such as levitating in mid-air after the branch he was standing on was severed - "no mean feat in it of itself" according to Plagueis.

Another thing is to consider is Venamis's potential. Sith apprentices are chosen for their potential to surpass their masters. Venamis was a firm beliver in the old Bane tradition, meaning he would have challenged his master in a fair duel when the time was right. When Zannah realized she had surpassed Bane she started looking for a new apprentice. We know from later in the book that Venamis was secretly looking for new apprentices. This is a good indication Venamis was already close to his peak and prepering to challenge Tenebrous for the title of Dark Lord of the Sith. Venamis being equal or at least near equal to Tenebrous therefore may not be that much of a stretch to sudgest.

Part I Plagueis is not remotely as the same as Part II Plagueis. The latter is leagues ahead of the former. The Canted Circle feats cannot be attributed to Venamis at face value; perhaps if you discount the injuries, but it's ultimately nebulous.

You raise an interesting point about Venamis' search for disciples. I'll have to review that portion of the book to see whether you're onto something, or whether the had an ulterior motive.
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Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul Empty Re: Darth Venamis vs. Darth Maul

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