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by Master Azronger
on July 20th 2019, 5:40 pm
 
Search in: Finished Suspect Showdowns (SS)
Topic: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)
Replies: 151
Views: 10031

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)

II. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS DARTH KRAYT

Newsflash: Performing Jedi exercises and drills, is not the same as using your Lightsaber in combat…


It doesn’t have to be for it to have the same benefits, because newsflash: Force users improve by doing drills. Or would you argue with a straight face Darth Maul was just naturally  redonkulously skilled with the saberstaff when he first laid his hands on one in 37 BBY and regressed for five years until TPM because he kept doing drills instead of fighting other lightsaber-wielding opponents?

When I complete my basic exercises, I power up my double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers. My body is as strong as durasteel and as fluid as water. I shift from one position of attack to another. I fall on one knee and slash my lightsaber as I imagine cleaving my victim cleanly. I roll away and grip my lightsaber with both hands for a vertical sweep. I leap and twist and come down, leading with my left shoulder. I deliver a death blow and leap away, somersaulting in the air. I perform ten thousand slashes, lunges, attacks.

My lightsaber is no longer a separate weapon, but part of my arm. I move in the time it would take my opponent to blink. I move in the time he would take to raise his weapon. He would only see the space where I had been. He would feel the sudden shock of the blow that would knock him to the floor. I do these maneuvers a hundred times a day. I do them even though my body knows them intimately, even though I have not made a mistake or a misstep in years. I do them until the memory of the movement is part of the muscle itself. The goal of the Sith is to fight without thought.


Star Wars: Episode I Journal - Darth Maul

And… no source has been provided for this, so there is no way for me to know if you’re bullshitting or not. To quote your very own words in your CaV with Ant: “You’ve failed at the simplest, most fundamental facet of empirical debating: presenting evidence for your claims.”


An explicit statement doesn’t have to be provided for every claim. It’s called inductive reasoning. Hett went to Tatooine soon after Order 66 was issued, and lived there as the chieftain of the Tuskens until his match with Kenobi. Who could he possibly have dueled with a lightsaber there, much less frequently enough to keep up his skills?

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That was a generalised summary of the statements. I’m not implying anything.


No. Your statement was “I’d also like to point out that given the fact that Kenobi not having fought in a duel for ages is mentioned alongside a slew of other disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett we can logically infer that it’s intended to be a factor at play.” One of those “disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett” that is listed is ”Hett’s considerable skills with his own weapons.” If it’s an advantage for him, then it must mean you think Hett is more skilled than Kenobi. You can’t back out of this one.

No, it doesn’t lmao. “Fortunate” means “auspicious or favourable” (Source: Google) with “auspicious” meaning “conducive to success” (Source: Google). Conducive means (when postpositive, foll by to) “contributing, leading or tending” (Source Dictionary.com). Then we have “favourable” which means “to the advantage of someone” (Source: Google). All the text is saying, is that Kenobi maintaining his former reflexes was advantageous for him and that it contributed to his success not that it was wholly necessary unlike what you suggest. Ergo, Kenobi being able to defeat Hett at a much lower level and him maintaining his former reflexes being “fortunate” do not conflict, and thus the argument that Kenobi was holding back the whole time is still perfectly viable.


Fair. English is not my native language, so misunderstandings happen from time to time.

I was talking about his reflexes not having slowed. That doesn’t preclude his technical skill from having decreased though.


You mention “former prowess” in a general sense without specifying anything about reflexes exclusively. And had Kenobi’s technical skill decreased, he explicitly wouldn’t have maintained his former prowess.

The feat is impressive but not as good as it seems. Ben was stated to be running faster than any previous Force User when he reached 165m per second, and incredibly weak characters like Traitor Jacen, for example, have been able to outdo this. In New Jedi Order: Traitor Jacen runs 100m in an eyeblink (6). An eye takes roughly a third of a second to blink, meaning in a second Jacen could have run 300m which tops the speed Kenobi was running at. Kenobi was in no way “super amped”. You have almost no proof that Kenobi’s power increased to any significant degree.


This is a red herring.* Jacen Solo is an irrelevant factor here, not to mention you baselessly state he is “incredibly weak” in what I’m guessing is a lame attempt to bait your brother.**

*FALLACY COUNTER: 7
**BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 5

Seeing as you don’t buy Mustafar Vader being above base Anakin, meaning you don’t think Kenobi stalemating him puts him any higher than he was against Dooku, you probably think base Kenobi is still fodder to the Count. So when his power hasn’t “increased to any significant degree,” how is he able to bridge the gap between not only himself and Dooku but also Dooku and Palpatine by running faster than the latter? One moment you’re arguing base Kenobi is gets stomped by Dooku yet your argument here necessitates base Kenobi being relative to Sidious. Which is it? This is a blatant double standard.*

*FALLACY COUNTER: 8

Yes, but it stops Kenobi from launching a serious offensive.


Not really. All he has to eschew is hitting the vitals, which is common enough among Jedi. Doesn’t mean they’re always holding back.

Perhaps, the only credible point you’ve made so far. Credit where credit is due.


CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 1

The difference is Anakin is an entirely different character from Kenobi. He’s constantly afraid and is much more susceptible to shit which is in actuality incredibly unlikely to affect him. Kenobi, on the other hand, has a much more logical and stable mind, and any worries he may have about the battle are more than likely legitimate concerns.


So Hett’s ”considerable skills with his own weapons” was a “legitimate concern”? This is the second time now you’ve admitted Hett’s nearly as if not more skilled than Kenobi.

I wouldn’t say Kenobi’s age was a factor, in all honesty, but merely something that could have come into play like the environment but didn’t end up doing so.


So it is a factor as I defined it. If Kenobi’s age is “a legitimate concern” and “could have come into play like the environment” then things would be exactly like I described in my second post: “In fact, age has never mattered unless the combatants didn’t have excessive Force reserves to draw on or if they were exceedingly close. If we treat this as an actual factor, I can’t see Hett as anything but a near-equal of Kenobi since for the latter’s age to come into play, his Force reserves would have to be depleted, and if Hett can do that he is obviously Kenobi’s peer.” So you’ve basically just conceded Hett must be close to Kenobi. In fact, in your own words, you conceded Kenobi can’t stomp Hett:

In short, while this fight definitely proves Kenobi can’t stomp Hett or anything of that nature.


Your own vague definition of what being on the same tier constitutes is irrelevant. That clause right there is what matters. So, concession accepted.*

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 2

The fact that Kenobi didn’t end up killing Hett, doesn’t preclude him from having tried to in the last few moments of the duel. By this logic, Dooku wasn’t trying to kill Kenobi in ROTS when he threw him across the room, because Kenobi ended up knocked out rather than dead.


False equivalency.* Kenobi was in a position to end Hett’s life and chose not to. Dooku’s clear attempt to kill Kenobi simply failed.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 9

Speed also played into this “stomp,” (Force pushing Hett before he could raise a defence) which is entirely dependent on augmentation. So, no, this victory can be called a “stomp” rather than simply “opportunistic”.


The speed thing is debunked, so all my points about Kenobi’s victory stand.

III. DARTH KRAYT VS KARNESS MUUR


You haven’t proven either decrease was significant. The fact that Krayt was afraid that he would die soon, because his hold over the coral seeds was beginning to weaken doesn’t mean he’d decreased in power. As for his bout with Cade Skywalker, all you’ve proven is that he decreased afterward not that he did so significantly, and by all evidence the decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #2 shouldn’t be significant as I’ll detail below.


I have proved the decreases were significant: Krayt going from RotS Yoda+ to being challenged by Morne-Muur is proof in itself. That’s no different from your attempt to prove the decreases were miniscule: analyses of his showings. An explicit statement doesn’t have to be provided for everything.

Also, you blatantly don’t understand how the coral seeds function. They drain Krayt’s Force connection, and he holds off the infestation with the Force. So the more the infestation spreads, the lesser Krayt’s ability to ward it off becomes, and so he has to devote a bigger portion of his reserves to keep it at bay to prevent it from spreading faster. So not only is his Force power lesser 7 years after Legacy # 1, but his ability to use that power in combat is also lesser.

As you’ve detailed here, during Legacy Krayt and Cade have a fight, where Krayt is hard pressed and forced to go into stasis (10). Throughout the rest of Legacy, and most of Legacy: War Cade does not complete his Jedi training and does very little which would cause any kind of significant increase in power. All evidence of a power increase is absent, and in fact, there is evidence suggesting otherwise with Cade consistently, struggling with Darth Talon (11). Towards the end of Legacy: War, however, he achieves new mastery over the Force and stomps Darth Talon in their final duel (12) before finally engaging with Krayt (13). Krayt upon being reborn increases significantly in power and has now completely healed himself from the coral seeds killing him. The two engage each other, and then the comic cuts away. Krayt and Cade then duel for a significant period of time off screen, while the comic focuses on Antares and the rest of the Imperial Knights. When it cuts back Krayt finishes off Cade with Dark Transfer. Cade holds out against it for an extended period of time (Krayt has a really long speech) despite Krayt using his full power and attempting to kill him. The fact that Cade duels Krayt for an extended period of time, and resists his Dark Transfer for so long indicates he’s comparably powerful to Reborn Krayt. By all available evidence, Cade and Krayt are relative as of Legacy: War and Legacy which means Krayt’s increase in power can be gauged to be around the same as Cade’s. Given that the gap between Legacy #31 Krayt and Reborn Krayt is significantly greater than the gap between Legacy #1 Krayt and Legacy #31 Krayt, we can logically deduce that Cade’s power increase in the last few issues of Legacy is greater than Krayt’s decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #31. Am I to presume, that Cade somehow gaining new mastery over the Force jumped him from sub-Morne+Muur to Yoda tier? It’s highly doubtful, because of the hilarious gaps between the two (see my first post for details), and given that Anakin (despite having far greater potential than Cade and undergoing a similar process) didn’t increase in power nearly that much in ROTS during his transition between the LS and the DS despite having crushed his fears and removed all his mental barriers.


Prove to me Krayt was remotely serious in his last match with Cade. He begins by contemptuously tossing Cade aside with telekinesis and ragdolls his ass around as indicated by the blue trail his hand leaves. He sends a few sparks of lightning Cade’s way which, from what we see, don’t even touch Cade, so there is no way to know how Cade dealt with them. Then the fight goes on off-panel, meaning we have no idea what transpired during that time; your assertion that Cade and Krayt “duel for a significant period of time” is baseless.* All we see is that they are dueling after it; they could have started as soon as Krayt got done with the lightning or only a few seconds before we resume on their duel. It’s impossible to tell. For all we know, Krayt could have been ragdolling him some more.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 6

Regardless, when we do resume, we see that Krayt hasn’t even drawn his second lightsaber. Why do you expect me to believe he’s going all-out when he doesn’t even bother utilizing his primary fighting style against Cade? And he still beats him in two panels, via speedblitz nonetheless. He’s barely within striking range, yet instantly closes the distance and pins Cade to the ground before the latter can react despite even signalling that the attack was coming with the glow in his hand. Cade literally got Agen Kolar’d. And what’s this about Cade “resisting” dark transfer? Guy looks completely helpless and can’t even hold onto his lightsaber. How do you know Krayt wasn’t simply killing him slowly because he was giving his speech?*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7

Cade then has the vision as he dies, and Krayt tells him to revive himself, which he does, and then cheap-shots Krayt.

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All in all, I see no evidence Krayt was going all-out or that Cade is anywhere near him. Krayt doesn’t even bother drawing his second blade yet still speedblitzes Cade and thrashes him around with telekinesis. Cade only wins via a cheap-shot. In short, you can’t curtail Vong Krayt as of Legacy # 1 near Vector Krayt because you can’t prove the latter is near Reborn Krayt.

That’s great and all but once again even in combination with Krayt’s decrease, it doesn’t remotely compensate for the hilarious disparity between Yoda and Muur. Celeste is demonstrably comparably powerful to Muur using your logic as he takes over her body several times during the issues of Legacy they appear in (14), and she admits she is losing control over him (15). Hell, we can even use Krayt to prove that Muur is somewhat comparable. Celeste is weaker than a significantly weakened Krayt per your own words yet we know she is comparably powerful to Krayt (per the quote I provided) with Muur’s help, meaning Muur has to bridge the gap between her and Krayt, showing that at the very least there isn’t a gargantuan disparity between him and Morne.


I don’t see the point of this paragraph.

1% is a hilarious exaggeration. Anyway, Krayt not getting fried by Muur’s power doesn’t prove he’s uber powerful and greater than Morne+Muur or whatever, given that the blast was omnidirectional meaning he would have been hit by the barest fraction of the power of the blast. Please quantify the extent of Krayt’s weakness and the amount of power he withstood so we can compare the two. If you can’t we have a completely unquantifiable showing which doesn’t prove anything.


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That’s not an omnidirectional attack. Simply because Morne-Muur encased themselves in a lightning cocoon and tossed everyone else briefly aside with telekinesis doesn’t mean the bulk of the attack wasn’t focused on Krayt, which it was. Morne-Muur’s hand gestures, and the fact that they kept on bombarding Krayt even after everyone else, including Azlyn, was out of the picture give it away. Karness Muur after more than doubling his power couldn’t kill a 1% Vong Krayt with his most powerful attack, and Krayt even managed to negate the worst of the lightning as I explained in my second post.

Yes, but the fact that it proposes such a possibility indicates the obvious intent is that Muur is comparably powerful to Krayt. There would be absolutely no reason to hype up Muur as better than Krayt if he’s in actuality far weaker him.


“Yes” - so you concede your original argument? Good.* The rest of the sentence is irrelevant as I was only contesting the idea the quote definitively proves Muur is more powerful than Krayt.

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 3

Except the quote is literally talking about the events before Cade and the others try to kill Krayt so it can’t be referring to Krayt’s death and Muur threatening to possess Cade: “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”


It’s an advertisement for the whole comic. It can absolutely refer to the ending without overtly alluding to it to avoid spoiling it to the reader. Like, what ”another Sith” would they ”join” prior to Muur threatening to possess Cade?

Chee doesn’t think any quotes are absolute or 100% binding (e.g. quotes from Sourcebooks and the like), yet we still accept them for the purposes of the debate so I don’t see why we shouldn’t hold a Publisher’s Summary to the same standard.


I’ve discussed the merits of what Chee has said with other members in talks unrelated to this debate, and going off of those, I must say this is actually a fair point. I’ll concede it.

Also, it’s irrelevant anyway given Insider states that Muur possessed powers which “outshone” Krayt’s.


That’s irrelevant too. It doesn’t mean Muur was more powerful than Krayt, merely that he ”outshone” everyone else when he blasted Krayt off the cliff: “But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.” Muur would definitely shine the brightest at the moment of his victory, but since said victory was achieved through a cheap-shot, it doesn’t mean he’s ultimately stronger than Krayt.

CONCLUSION

Now time to address your rather weak rebuttals to my scaling chain.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Meanwhile I have provided actual accolades and feats (see the final section of my second post) which prove Dooku has what it takes to win this battle.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

You have provided me with nothing to suggest Krayt is comparably powerful to Dooku.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

Your rebuttals to the Kenobi vs Dooku fight were less than adequate,


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability

and you didn’t even begin to justify how Krayt could possibly be comparable to Yoda when he’s weaker than Muur+Morne as of Legacy #31.


Topics tagged under 1 on Suspect Insight Forums Kill_y10
by AA3
on June 22nd 2019, 10:07 pm
 
Search in: Finished Suspect Showdowns (SS)
Topic: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)
Replies: 151
Views: 10031

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)

Dooku vs Krayt: The Finale


1) Dooku vs Kenobi


A) Can Dooku ragdoll Kenobi?


Or perhaps my goal was never to refute the feat in the way that it wouldn’t exist, but merely to refute the belief that it proves Dooku is vastly more powerful than Kenobi?


Well, you’ve done a rather poor job at that. There’s a reason why we don’t see characters on the same tier/near equals in power ragdolling each other constantly, and that’s simply because they lack the speed and skill to hit their opponent before they can react. Dooku’s ragdolling of Kenobi, while under unfavorable circumstances, proves he’s far more powerful than Kenobi, as he had to hit Kenobi before he could raise a barrier which requires him to be significantly faster and have better reflexes both of which are directly correlated with Force Power via physical augmentation. In essence, Dooku is more powerful than Kenobi to a significant degree whether Kenobi raised a barrier to deflect his attack or not, which was my premise.

Something that, given your lack of rebuttal to that idea, I appear to have been rather successful at.


Well, given that you didn’t seem to understand the premise of my response, I’m not exactly sure I can call your rebuttal to the feat a success.

Indeed, the only rebuttal of yours is built on a strawman*: that my premise was “given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a good fight against Dooku,” which isn’t stated anywhere in my opener.


That was a generalised summary of your argument, given that I don’t think it is possible for characters on the same power level to be able to stomp each other so I replaced your, “same power level” phrase, with, “given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a good fight against Dooku.” The two are interchangeable in my mind.

What I, in actuality, was arguing for was that Hett’s fight with Kenobi puts him on the same power level as Dooku: Whether he can or cannot put up a good fight against Dooku is irrelevant as his power level is the only thing required for my case to adequately function.


You cited speed and skill feats to put Kenobi on the same power level as Dooku, and then for some reason didn’t take the ragdolling which I complimented as a showing of speed and skill as indicative of power superiority on Dooku’s part, and instead tried to play it off like I hadn’t refuted the feat. Double standards much?

On top of that, your argument is also reliant on a hasty generalization.* You’ve taken Darth Tyranus managing to catch Obi-Wan without active Force barriers on and tossing him aside once, and concluded he will be successful every time.


Well, yes, because he was heavily disadvantaged and was dealing with another incredibly powerful combatant in Anakin. It’s not far fetched to assume that Dooku proving significantly faster and more skilled than Kenobi under such circumstances leaves a wide chasm between them on neutral ground. Just to emphasise how weakened Dooku was, take a look at this (1). The relevant parts are underlined. Dooku is so drained he’s barely sensing his surroundings, and his Force Reserves are all but fully depleted.

It should go without saying that singular instances do not create rules in such circumstantial cases.


I mean, given that all of the circumstances put Dooku at a disadvantage I’d say that this “singular instance” does prove Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi. Moreover, this isn’t even a singular instance. Dooku hits Kenobi with TK early in the fight and sends him flying into a wall which knocks Kenobi out (2).

You say that “If Dooku can hit Kenobi with TK before the latter can react while being hard pressed by Anakin then he most certainly will do so under normal circumstances” but have you considered that Anakin’s presence may actually have been the reason for Obi-Wan’s mishap there? That perhaps he thought Anakin sufficient to distract Tyranus, making an active Force defense a frivolous waste of energy in that moment?

Per the above excerpt that I also posted in my opener, that is exactly what Obi-Wan’s thought process is: “Dooku is focused on Anakin, so he can’t attack me simultaneously, so I’ll just sneak up behind him and we’ll take him down together from different angles.” Alas, he was wrong, and his lack of protection resulted in his incapacitation, but nothing thus far proves Kenobi would get demolished every time Dooku decides to lift a finger.


Kenobi may not be expecting an attack from Dooku when he ran up the stairs to confront The Count, but he should have been more than ready for one by the time Dooku ragdolled him, given that he and Dooku clash blades before the ragdolling (link ), and Dooku alters his position to both Kenobi and Skywalker are in front of him. Any thoughts such as the one you posted would have been disregarded by Kenobi the moment he and Dooku clashed blades, as he would have realised he was mistaken in his assumption that The Count was unable to deal with both him and Anakin at the same time, meaning he most certainly wasn’t caught off guard and should have been expecting an attack from Dooku.

B) Kenobi and Skywalker vs Dooku: TCW S6


This duel takes place over five months before Revenge of the Sith (link). No clue why you’re using it as evidence.


Because it’s highly unlikely Kenobi grew that much in 5 months (to the point where he could go from fodder to Dooku to Dooku’s equal) when he’s literally never displayed growth like this before…

C) Kenobi’s speed and skill feats


Kenobi was tired as well (link). You treating this as some sort of unfair disadvantage for the Count while ignoring Kenobi’s situation is a double standard.*


https://youtu.be/qEE2QOlGoB4?t=47

I truly am disappointed Az. Your entire rebuttal is based on a faulty premise and your inability to pay attention to the dialogue in the scene. Dooku’s tiredness is noted before this line in the novelization: “Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.” In the script, on the other hand, it’s noted that as the duel progresses after the aforementioned dialogue Kenobi and Dooku are tired. In other words, it is impossible to assert when in the duel Kenobi became tired. All we know is that he tired at some point in the duel.

Not attempting to land a killing blow from the onset in no way prevents the Count from going all-out when on the defensive nor does it mean he was holding back with regards to Force augmentation or blade maneuvering at any point.


Dooku’s obviously going to be less inclined to strike at Kenobi’s blinding defence when he has a smaller target to hit which would obviously be the case as he’s trying to avoid killing Kenobi as he can’t aim for the head, heart, etc.

Note: I know this somewhat affects my rebuttal about Dooku trying a strike later, given that he obviously was trying to kill Kenobi later in the exchange, but honestly it shouldn’t be relevant given Dooku was far more depleted by the time of Kenobi’s stonewalling than he was here.

I don’t see why Dooku being surprised and losing his composure (meaning his calmness) would diminish his bladework in any significant fashion.


Dooku being surprised is incredibly relevant. The duo has suddenly massively increased the tempo of their attack, which Dooku was not ready for (as shown in the quote I provided) and now has to adapt to. We’ve seen similar examples of this in AOTC where both Kenobi and Skywalker are able to make Dooku retreat when they upped the intensity of their attack and caught him off guard (3) (in these instances he wasn’t tired either). We know neither is a match for him though, as Skywalker (the superior of the two) (4) is pushed back once Dooku collects himself, and the fight is described as “no contest,” by the script. Unless you want to seriously entertain the notion that AOTC Kenobi is comparable to Dooku, then I see no reason for you to take these passages as an indication ROTS Kenobi is comparable to Dooku.

As for Dooku losing his composure, once again it’s relevant. A scared and surprised Dooku, is obviously going to be less inclined to strike against Kenobi than a calm and collected Dooku.

The text states Kenobi’s velocity was “so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike,” meaning the reason he didn’t strike was because of how fast it was; nothing about his composure is mentioned.


Things don’t have to be explicitly stated for them to have relevance.

And the reason Dooku performed better against Anakin later is because he had replenished his Force reserves: “He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe.”


Lmao. One cannot simply replenish all of their lost reserves at will. For example, not even GM Luke can do that (5) and you think Dooku can…? The quote doesn’t make note of the fact that:

A) Dooku replenished himself fully, which indeed wouldn’t make sense as I’ve just explained.

B) Dooku actually recovered any lost reserves. All it notes is that Dooku gathered his strength and threw Kenobi into a wall with TK...

Moreover, this isn’t even the instance I was referring to. I was talking about their final confrontation, where Skywalker finally gains true mastery over his power and learns to turn his fear and anger into a weapon.

I don’t see how Dooku thinking Kenobi was using Ataru is relevant.


Because if he knew Kenobi were using Soresu he wouldn’t be solely striking at Kenobi’s legs…

And Kenobi has two legs, so they weren’t all aimed at the same point, and Dooku can attack from multiple angles, plus his curved hilt adds even more variety to his thrusts.


Yes, but that doesn’t refute the idea that it’s significantly easier to parry someone’s strikes when they’re not even striking at a large percentage of your body, as you only have to concentrate on defending a certain area.

Kenobi not only negating his precision but his speed entirely, being able to remain stationary and only move his arms is a feat from which it is entirely valid to derive parity between them.


The fact that you ignored over half my rebuttal should speak to how utterly nonsensical this is. You are literally trying to derive parity between Kenobi and Dooku via him blocking a few strikes from Dooku when the latter had just depleted a significant portion of his reserves holding off Skywalker… Even if my first point about Dooku only striking at Kenobi’s legs is adequately addressed in your next response to my post you still haven’t addressed either of these points, so it’s basically impossible for me to take your Dooku~Kenobi arguments remotely seriously.

D) Anakin Skywalker scaling


Now, let’s talk about Anakin Skywalker for a bit.


Yes, let’s.

Once he goes all-out, he beats a fresh Dooku in 12 seconds per the movie, and the novelization basically describes it as a complete stomp.


By this point in the duel, Dooku was utterly exhausted. He had depleted the vast majority of his reserves, holding off Kenobi and Skywalker’s earlier assault, then Skywalker’s attack and finally ragdolling Kenobi while kicking Skywalker. The common rebuttal is this quote which supposedly states Dooku recovered his Force reserves:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization


But it doesn’t state that at all… First off, it falls under my earlier rebuttal that even if Dooku did recover lost reserves I doubt it was his full strength, as not even GM Luke can fully recover lost Force Reserves on a whim, and indeed it doesn’t make sense for someone to be able to gain more Force Reserves by using the Force. Secondly, the text makes no mention of Dooku actually recovering any Force Reserves only that he uses the Force to physically augment himself making his age and physical tiredness irrelevant. Overall, given his fight with Yoda, Dooku should do much better than he did here if he has his full reserves to draw upon.

After his fall to the dark side, his power grows even further, leading up to his confrontation against Obi-Wan on Mustafar where he is noted by multiple sources to be better than his Jedi self who is already a Dooku-stomper, and George Lucas’ tier system has Mustafar Vader as a 9, which he only attained by drawing on the dark side, meaning his Dooku-stomping Jedi self is still only an 8.


Seriously…? Dooku stomping Anakin is only an 8...? You have provided no sources which state such. You are correct in asserting that Gillard says that Anakin starts ROTS as an 8 when he’s not embracing his fury and that when he uses the Dark Side he becomes a 9. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Anakin was using the Dark Side in his fight with Dooku:

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene. "Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question.

[...]

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization


All the relevant parts are underlined. Anakin is unleashing his fury and fear and ignoring his Jedi training and restraint. Dooku already described Anakin as half Sith already, when Anakin wasn’t unleashing his full fury so when his full fury was released he should surely be a full on DS user. The fact that the words fear, terror and rage etc are mentioned so many times should paint a clear picture that Anakin is using the Dark Side, meaning by this point he is a 9. Plain and simple.

Obi-Wan Kenobi then emptying himself of all his emotional baggage elevated himself to a level on par Mustafar Vader. So even if you don’t want to accept the Invisible Hand comparison, Kenobi outgrows Dooku immensely by the end of Revenge of the Sith regardless.


Lmao. Mustafar Vader is not superior to Invisible Hand Anakin, despite your insistence that he is. Anakin as of the start of ROTS is incredibly fearful. According to his Jedi teachings, he has to suppress this fear when he is fighting or it will distract him or cause him to hold back. However, when he ignores his teachings and turns his fear into anger he is able to clear his mind and fight to the fullest. Though, in emotionally charged situations Anakin’s anger can feed his fear which consumes his mind. For example on Tatooine and Aargonar, “Smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter” (Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelization) which also happened to him on Mustafar: “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision” (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide). Basically, Anakin gets overwhelmed by fear and anger, and is unable to utilise his full power against Obi-Wan so him possessing “newfound powers” for example is totally irrelevant. To summarise, Anakin in this state is not stronger than Anakin when he stomped Dooku, (not that the stomp was legitimate in the first place) and thus Kenobi’s performance against Vader on Mustafar is completely useless for the purposes of this debate.

2) Hett vs Kenobi


A) Was Kenobi post-prime?


How does Kenobi not having fought anyone in two years mean his technical skill declined when ”he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine” (newsflash: “Jedi exercises” involves lightsaber practise)?


Newsflash: Performing Jedi exercises and drills, is not the same as using your Lightsaber in combat…

Even were you correct, Hett hadn’t fought anyone either, so you treating it as some sort of unfair disadvantage for Kenobi while ignoring Hett’s situation is a double standard.


And… no source has been provided for this, so there is no way for me to know if you’re bullshitting or not. To quote your very own words in your CaV with Ant: “You’ve failed at the simplest, most fundamental facet of empirical debating: presenting evidence for your claims.”

Also, you describe the list of things going through Kenobi’s head as “disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett,” so seeing as one of the factors listed alongside Ben’s lack of recent combat experience, his age, and Hett’s desert fighting experience is “Hett’s considerable skills with his own weapons,” are you implying Hett was more skilled than Kenobi? I don’t see why else his skill would be an advantage for him and/or a disadvantage for Ben.


That was a generalised summary of the statements. I’m not implying anything.

B) Was Kenobi going all out?


I already explained this in my opener. You’re not refuting anything, just demonstrating you can’t understand the text. But let me help out the confusion: Kenobi retaining his former prowess being “fortunate” implies being on RotS Kenobi’s level is a relevant factor in a fight against Hett. If Obi-Wan could have stomped Hett any time like you argue, him being on par with his RotS self would be unnecessary and irrelevant rather than ”fortunate”; he could still feasibly beat Hett while operating at a much lower level if he could stomp him at full strength. Ergo, the fact that Kenobi retaining his former prowess is a relevant factor indicates he can’t defeat Hett when holding back to the point he could in reality stomp Hett, and therefore we can infer he was going all-out.


No, it doesn’t lmao. “Fortunate” means “auspicious or favourable” (Source: Google) with “auspicious” meaning “conducive to success” (Source: Google). Conducive means (when postpositive, foll by to) “contributing, leading or tending” (Source Dictionary.com). Then we have “favourable” which means “to the advantage of someone” (Source: Google). All the text is saying, is that Kenobi maintaining his former reflexes was advantageous for him and that it contributed to his success not that it was wholly necessary unlike what you suggest. Ergo, Kenobi being able to defeat Hett at a much lower level and him maintaining his former reflexes being “fortunate” do not conflict, and thus the argument that Kenobi was holding back the whole time is still perfectly viable.

And you just said Kenobi’s technical skill decreased, yet your statement “Of course, it’s fortunate Kenobi maintained his former prowess because otherwise he would have been killed due to slow reactions and would have been unable to overpower Hett” implies you believe he is on the level of his RotS self. Which is it?


I was talking about his reflexes not having slowed. That doesn’t preclude his technical skill from having decreased though.

My argument is that Kenobi was already motivated by Luke’s survival throughout the entire fight, not just at the last second. This is affirmed by the novelization where, once he finds out about the Tuskens’ rampage, the very first thing he thinks of is Luke:

In contrast, your argument is essentially Ben going in his head “Oh shit, I just remembered this is the farm where Anakin’s son is living. I better try a bit harder against this guy” as if he hadn’t once thought of the possibility that bloodthirsty Tuskens would kill Luke. Just think for two seconds which stance is more reasonable here.


I never claimed that Ben wasn’t motivated by Luke, throughout the whole fight though. Absolutely nowhere is that stated, in my second post. Once again you’re strawmanning me. My actual argument was that Ben didn’t want to kill Hett and only stopped holding back against Hett because he thought the fight could go on “indefinitely” and wanted it to end to protect Luke and knew that the only way to do so was to cut loose with the restraint.

However, you do raise an interesting point in that “The text specifically attributes Ben knowing he was fighting for Luke as the reason for his victory.” Admittedly I hadn’t considered this before, but Luke is an external motivator here; Obi-Wan didn’t have Luke to spur him on in his duels against Darth Maul, Count Dooku, General Grievous, or Darth Vader. Ergo, if an external motivator is cited as the reason for Obi-Wan’s victory, it can be inferred he was operating at a higher level than usual when he defeated Hett.


Or it could be inferred that he simply cut loose in the final stages of the duel due to Luke being endangered which is what the text supports? It notes that given that Kenobi was holding back the two could keep on fighting “indefinitely” and then goes onto state that Kenobi is motivated by Luke and thus will win the duel. The logical way to interpret this (given Kenobi was motivated by Luke’s survival the entire fight) is that Kenobi’s desire to protect Luke overrode his restraint, he and cut loose hence the fight that could have been indefinite came to a rather conclusive end.

For example, consider the following feat:  When motivated by Luke’s safety, Kenobi is able to run faster than any Force user in history to the point where his atoms are literally coming apart.


The feat is impressive but not as good as it seems. Ben was stated to be running faster than any previous Force User when he reached 165m per second, and incredibly weak characters like Traitor Jacen, for example, have been able to outdo this. In New Jedi Order: Traitor Jacen runs 100m in an eyeblink (6). An eye takes roughly a third of a second to blink, meaning in a second Jacen could have run 300m which tops the speed Kenobi was running at. Kenobi was in no way “super amped”. You have almost no proof that Kenobi’s power increased to any significant degree.

Again, trying not to kill doesn’t prevent him from seriously attempting to block Hett’s attacks.


Yes, but it stops Kenobi from launching a serious offensive.

C) Environmental Factors


The full paragraph reads: “Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.” Per your logic, the reason Hett has more desert fighting experience is that he’s never going to relent, which makes no sense. Two sentences back-to-back doesn’t in itself mean causation, so Hett’s desert fighting experience being the cause of Ben’s struggle to block his strikes isn’t necessarily the case. The sentences are independent statements that collectively reinforce the idea of Kenobi being worried about Hett outlasting him, but there is no causative interrelation between them.


I never said that two sentences back to back means they have to be related. In the quote I posted, we can logically infer that Hett’s experience at fighting in the sand and the desert heat is related to the previous sentence. The passage is describing, how the fight is playing out and then mentions Hett’s greater desert fighting experience. There would be no reason for the passage to note Hett’s desert fighting experience if it had no relevance to the current events in the fight. Especially since just prior to the quote I posted Hett abused his greater desert experience utilising the environment to his advantage: “Hett grunted, but he didn’t go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill.”

Good point: “the sand can be a disadvantage if the opposing fighter is using it effectively against you.” Kenobi presumably knew this, and thus it’s included in the list of things that could potentially be detrimental to him. But given Hett only exploited the environment once, the sand didn’t disturb Kenobi’s dueling at all, and again, “something as trivial as sand beneath their boots isn't going to boost their precognition, augmentation, reflexes or clarity of mind - far more pertinent factors in a lightsaber duel than simple technique or raw skill” - the desert ground probably wasn’t a factor at all in the actual blade-to-blade fencing that took up the majority of the duel.


Perhaps, the only credible point you’ve made so far. Credit where credit is due.

In fact, now that I think about it, the entire fight is from Kenobi’s perspective. Looking at the paragraph again - “It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.” - it reads as if Ben is simply reminding himself not to have any doubts about the fight, not necessarily that these are actual, active factors contributing to it, similar to Anakin against Dooku: “Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith— But Palpatine’s words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.” None of these are real concerns for Anakin but thinking about them would nonetheless ”freeze away his strength,” the same as Kenobi knowing ”that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.”


The difference is Anakin is an entirely different character from Kenobi. He’s constantly afraid and is much more susceptible to shit which is in actuality incredibly unlikely to affect him. Kenobi, on the other hand, has a much more logical and stable mind, and any worries he may have about the battle are more than likely legitimate concerns.

Note: Just to clarify, while I have acknowledged that the desert probably wasn’t a major factor I’m mainly refuting this because it also somewhat serves as a rebuttal to Kenobi’s comments about him not having fought in combat recently.

For example, why would Kenobi being Hett’s senior by only ten years be relevant? That didn’t hinder him against Vader. In fact, age has never mattered unless the combatants didn’t have excessive Force reserves to draw on or if they were exceedingly close. If we treat this as an actual factor, I can’t see Hett as anything but a near-equal of Kenobi since for the latter’s age to come into play, his Force reserves would have to be depleted, and if Hett can do that he is obviously Kenobi’s peer. And if we don’t treat it as a factor, then Hett’s experience in the desert also wouldn’t have mattered beyond the possibility of him exploiting the ground against Kenobi, which he briefly did only once.


I wouldn’t say Kenobi’s age was a factor, in all honesty, but merely something that could have come into play like the environment but didn’t end up doing so.

D) Final Thoughts


To me it looks like Kenobi still isn’t going for the kill here:


The fact that Kenobi didn’t end up killing Hett, doesn’t preclude him from having tried to in the last few moments of the duel. By this logic, Dooku wasn’t trying to kill Kenobi in ROTS when he threw him across the room, because Kenobi ended up knocked out rather than dead.

Multiple times now you’ve professed your belief that a dearth of fatal intent means one is holding back, but here you say Kenobi went all-out even though he wasn’t aiming to kill. This is the second time you’ve contradicted yourself now.


As I explained above there is no contradiction.

And let’s look at this “stomp” again: “Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm.” That’s far too opportunistic of a victory for me to call it a stomp. All he did was Force push Hett and take his arm when he was open. Yes, he created that opening himself, but it wasn’t through overwhelming power or sheer skill with the blade, just a good mix of craftiness and timing.


Speed also played into this “stomp,” (Force pushing Hett before he could raise a defence) which is entirely dependent on augmentation. So, no, this victory can be called a “stomp” rather than simply “opportunistic”.

Also, rethinking it I’m not sure this fight can be used to draw definitive parity between Kenobi and Hett. They clash blades, only a few times at the start of the duel before Hett floors Kenobi with a kick. This is not enough to draw definitive parity between the two, as we’ve seen in the lore that weaker Force User have been able to land lucky hits on far stronger ones, such as when Shaak Ti hit Galen in the TFU comic prior to Galen severely wounding her with an omnidirectional TK attack while weakened (7), or Barriss landing a TK attack on Anakin prior to him telekinetically dominating her in TCW S5 (8), or Aurra Sing landing a kick on Jacen Solo in Legacy of the Force: Tempest despite the fact that Jacen was capable of one-shotting her with Force Lightning (9). The next hit Hett lands is a direct a direct continuation of the first attack with him attacking Kenobi while the latter had barely gotten back on his feet. From that moment onwards, Kenobi displays decisive superiority. He responds to Hett’s physical strikes in kind by kicking him in the stomach, blocks Hett’s blows despite the latter abusing the environment and then finishes him with a Force Push. In short, while this fight definitely proves Kenobi can’t stomp Hett or anything of that nature it doesn’t prove Hett’s on his tier.

Good. Darth Krayt (Legacy # 1) >>>> A’Sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi (amped) > Obi-Wan Kenobi (standard) = Darth Vader (pre-suit) > Anakin Skywalker >>> Count Dooku. The feats you brought up for the Count are irrelevant and not in need of addressing as Krayt scales massively above them anyway.


Completely and utterly false. Now time to address your rather weak rebuttals to my scaling chain.

3) Karness Muur vs Darth Krayt


A) Krayt’s Weakness


Darth Krayt had been ignoring the coral seeds devouring him for the past seven years since Legacy # 1, but could not longer afford to do so, indicating his ailment was worsening. He captures Cade Skywalker, hoping he could heal him, but Cade escapes his clutches. Legacy # 27 reveals that “Cade’s escape has left the Emperor weakened”, and he found his body “disintegrating”. Said escape happened in Legacy # 19. In between the two issues, Krayt rejuvenates his body in a stasis chamber and by feeding on the terror of the Mon Calamari population. Yet he is still “weakened” - this means it’s permanent. So in his fight with Muur, he’s had two major decreases in power since Legacy # 1, the severity of which is highlighted by Krayt’s comments on his condition at the start of the series compared to them from just prior to his encounter with Muur: “My body fails me, Wyyrlok [...] How long have I fought this thing which threatens to take me over and make me not myself? How much longer can I keep it at bay? A decade or two perhaps… not more.” vs. “My time is running out, Wyyrlok. I can feel it. My… control of the coral seeds the Yuuzhan Vong planted within me wanes. Soon I will be a mindless thing. Or a corpse.”


You haven’t proven either decrease was significant. The fact that Krayt was afraid that he would die soon, because his hold over the coral seeds was beginning to weaken doesn’t mean he’d decreased in power. As for his bout with Cade Skywalker, all you’ve proven is that he decreased afterward not that he did so significantly, and by all evidence the decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #2 shouldn’t be significant as I’ll detail below.

As you’ve detailed here, during Legacy Krayt and Cade have a fight, where Krayt is hard pressed and forced to go into stasis (10). Throughout the rest of Legacy, and most of Legacy: War Cade does not complete his Jedi training and does very little which would cause any kind of significant increase in power. All evidence of a power increase is absent, and in fact, there is evidence suggesting otherwise with Cade consistently, struggling with Darth Talon (11). Towards the end of Legacy: War, however, he achieves new mastery over the Force and stomps Darth Talon in their final duel (12) before finally engaging with Krayt (13). Krayt upon being reborn increases significantly in power and has now completely healed himself from the coral seeds killing him. The two engage each other, and then the comic cuts away. Krayt and Cade then duel for a significant period of time off screen, while the comic focuses on Antares and the rest of the Imperial Knights. When it cuts back Krayt finishes off Cade with Dark Transfer. Cade holds out against it for an extended period of time (Krayt has a really long speech) despite Krayt using his full power and attempting to kill him. The fact that Cade duels Krayt for an extended period of time, and resists his Dark Transfer for so long indicates he’s comparably powerful to Reborn Krayt. By all available evidence, Cade and Krayt are relative as of Legacy: War and Legacy which means Krayt’s increase in power can be gauged to be around the same as Cade’s. Given that the gap between Legacy #31 Krayt and Reborn Krayt is significantly greater than the gap between Legacy #1 Krayt and Legacy #31 Krayt, we can logically deduce that Cade’s power increase in the last few issues of Legacy is greater than Krayt’s decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #31. Am I to presume, that Cade somehow gaining new mastery over the Force jumped him from sub-Morne+Muur to Yoda tier? It’s highly doubtful, because of the hilarious gaps between the two (see my first post for details), and given that Anakin (despite having far greater potential than Cade and undergoing a similar process) didn’t increase in power nearly that much in ROTS during his transition between the LS and the DS despite having crushed his fears and removed all his mental barriers.

B) Celeste Morne and Karness Muur


The Muur Talisman is an item Karness Muur uses as an anchor for his spirit to remain in the physical realm. The Talisman is capable of tying itself to a victim and allowing Muur to possess them if their will is lesser than his, and manifest his power through them: “The Talisman has always sought out a powerful Force user so that Muur would have access to Force powers through them.” Should the victim’s will be stronger than Muur’s, they can retain control of their body, but still be able to draw on Muur’s power to bolster their own: “I can feel you tapping into Muur’s dark power to fight me, Jedi.” The strong-willed victim can also lend their body over to Muur while retaining their consciousness and individuality, to the result of combining the powers of themselves and Muur: “Your power will be mine and my power will be yours.”

Celeste Morne resisted Karness Muur for 136 years. Willpower has been stated by Darths Plagueis, Sidious, and Wyyrlok III to be the main factor in Force power, so it should be a reliable indicator of a Force user’s overall strength. Thus, Morne keeping Muur at bay for such a long time demonstrates she is at least as powerful as he, if not more so. This is corroborated when Muur states she is “a suitable host,” meaning her body can house his spirit, and when the two combine their powers, her body endures fine, demonstrating her midi-chlorian count is well in excess of Muur’s original body.


That’s great and all but once again even in combination with Krayt’s decrease, it doesn’t remotely compensate for the hilarious disparity between Yoda and Muur. Celeste is demonstrably comparably powerful to Muur using your logic as he takes over her body several times during the issues of Legacy they appear in (14), and she admits she is losing control over him (15). Hell, we can even use Krayt to prove that Muur is somewhat comparable. Celeste is weaker than a significantly weakened Krayt per your own words yet we know she is comparably powerful to Krayt (per the quote I provided) with Muur’s help, meaning Muur has to bridge the gap between her and Krayt, showing that at the very least there isn’t a gargantuan disparity between him and Morne.

C) The Fight Itself


I don’t have any complaints with your analysis regarding most of the fight, but I feel the need to address the end as it could be used to potentially prove that Krayt is more powerful than Celeste amped Muur.

Yet Krayt still lives despite all these factors and was even able to negate the worst of Morne-Muur’s lightning as his skin is as it used to be versus Azlyn’s being scorched, and after that still had the Force reserves to break his 100-meter-fall. Muur, whose power had more than doubled, couldn’t kill 1% Vong Krayt with his most powerful attack that was also mostly mitigated by Krayt, and you think a non-amped Muur is stronger than a fresh Krayt?


1% is a hilarious exaggeration. Anyway, Krayt not getting fried by Muur’s power doesn’t prove he’s uber powerful and greater than Morne+Muur or whatever, given that the blast was omnidirectional meaning he would have been hit by the barest fraction of the power of the blast. Please quantify the extent of Krayt’s weakness and the amount of power he withstood so we can compare the two. If you can’t we have a completely unquantifiable showing which doesn’t prove anything.

D) The Publisher Summary


The quote proposes a possibility, not declare Karness Muur is definitively more powerful than Darth Krayt. “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”


Yes, but the fact that it proposes such a possibility indicates the obvious intent is that Muur is comparably powerful to Krayt. There would be absolutely no reason to hype up Muur as better than Krayt if he’s in actuality far weaker him.

At the end of the issue, Krayt is seemingly killed and Muur threatens to possess Cade Skywalker - that’s an entirely plausible setup to tease the following: “But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”


Except the quote is literally talking about the events before Cade and the others try to kill Krayt so it can’t be referring to Krayt’s death and Muur threatening to possess Cade: “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”

From the comic itself, we know that in a combative context, Muur is weaker than Krayt at the brink of death. And regardless, as a publisher’s summary, it has the same veracity as a blurb at the back of a book: not objective evidence per Leland Chee.


Chee doesn’t think any quotes are absolute or 100% binding (e.g. quotes from Sourcebooks and the like), yet we still accept them for the purposes of the debate so I don’t see why we shouldn’t hold a Publisher’s Summary to the same standard.

Also, it’s irrelevant anyway given Insider states that Muur possessed powers which “outshone” Krayt’s.

4) Conclusion


You have provided me with nothing to suggest Krayt is comparably powerful to Dooku. Your rebuttals to the Kenobi vs Dooku fight were less than adequate, and you didn’t even begin to justify how Krayt could possibly be comparable to Yoda when he’s weaker than Muur+Morne as of Legacy #31. The only points in your post that were remotely convincing were the ones you made on the Kenobi vs Hett fight, but even then you didn’t fully manage to convince me the two are relative. Meanwhile I have provided actual accolades and feats (see the final section of my second post) which prove Dooku has what it takes to win this battle.

5) Sources


1:

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization


2:

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization


3a:

OBI-WAN takes a deep breath, gets a fresh grip on his lightsaber and comes in again. For a moment, he drives COUNT DOOKU back.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Script


3b:

And ANAKIN charges at COUNT DOOKU. The force of his attack catches the Count slightly off balance. Anakin's lightsaber flashes. COUNT DOOKU draws back, putting a hand to his arm. He takes the hand away and looks at the smear of blood whee Anakin has nicked him.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Script


4:

“Of course, he's the chosen one," whispered Gillard. "The audience will want to see that manifest itself. There needs to be flashes of brilliance. He's more skilled than Obi-Wan. Anakin always attacks. He's better and he knows it, which means he's brash on occasion."

5:

He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones. He wondered if the same was true of Abeloth.

Credit: Fate of the Jedi: Conviction


6:

“Count on it.” Jacen burst into a sprint; the Force lent wings to his heels, driving him inhumanly fast, and faster, and faster still. He covered the hundred meters in an eyeblink, and found Anakin still well ahead, still looking back, beckoning, urging him onward.

Credit: NJO: Traitor


7:

A , B , C , D , E , F , G .

8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6_0Y4nnylA

9:

Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.
The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.
Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.

"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."

She kicked again.

"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his lightsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.

A fiery blur continued to blind one eye, and his sight in the other was still splashed with crimson blotches. But he could see clearly enough to be worried. Sing had landed near the refresher where Allana was hiding-close enough to fulfill her contract, if she was willing to risk Jacen attacking her from behind.

Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.

That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."
Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.
Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

But Allana suddenly appeared on the other side of Sing, charging forward with her dark brows lowered and what looked like a small recording rod clutched in her hands.

"Allana, no!"

Allana kept coming.

Determined to keep Sing from striking out at his daughter with any of her weapons, Jacen Force-leapt backward, dragging the assassin away from his daughter. Allana took two more steps and raised the silver rod over her head . . . then dived.

Sing raised her uninjured leg, cocking her foot to kick Allana with the stubby knife in the toe of her boot.

Jacen screamed and whipped Sing's arm around, twisting her away from his daughter. Her lightsaber flashed by so close he nearly lost an ear, but the assassin's legs spun around with her body, and the kick-knife flashed past half a meter above Allana's head.
Allana landed on Sing's other leg and jammed the silver rod into her injured knee. The hiss of an autoinjector sounded from its tip, and Sing cried out in astonishment.

"You little shrew!"

Sing drew her leg back again to kick . . . then let it drop to the floor. Her eyes widened in anger-or perhaps it was fear. She craned her neck around, staring at Allana, and began to convulse. Jacen quickly pulled Sing's lightsaber from her unresisting hand, then held the still-ignited tip to the assassin's neck.

Credit: LOTF: Tempest


10:

A , B , C .

“Get me to the stasis chamber. The battle with Skywalker has cost me.”

-Star Wars: Legacy 27: Into the Core (Darth Krayt)


11:

A) I , II , III , IV , V , VI , VII , VIII , IX , X .

B) I , II , III , IV , V , VI , VII , VIII , IX .

C) I , II , III , IV , V , VI .

12:

A , B , C .

13:

A , B , C , D , E , F .

14:

http://suspectinsight.forumotion.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-ArkhamAsylum3/morne-says-she-lost-control-of-muur-pic_256.htm
by Haggis
on May 4th 2019, 6:42 pm
 
Search in: Archives: Star Wars Versus
Topic: Kyp Durron vs Qui-Gon Jinn
Replies: 27
Views: 1271

Kyp Durron vs Qui-Gon Jinn

Certainly.

Kyp's primary advantage over Jinn is his Force power, which I beleive he has in spades more than Jinn.

Kyp "within days has surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook) after arriving at Luke Skywalker's Jedi Praxeum and proved "almost immediately to be the greatest of the apprentices gathered there" (I,Jedi) and was stated to be "easily the most powerful" (StarWars.com Databank Archive Kyp Durron) with his growth being "nothing shy of incredible" and surpassing the other students "by light-years" (I, Jedi).

Indeed, "Kyp's power dwarfed that of Gantoris" (I,Jedi). Gantoris, prior to Kyp's own arrival at the Praxeum, had proved "himself to be a talented and dedicated student" and "shown the most progress, the most inner strength". Moreover, "he {Gantoris} knew he was the best of the students" (Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice). Gantoris could utilise the Force from an early age and used it to "sense impeding earthquakes" (Jedi Academy I - Jedi Search) and "once miraculously survived an avalanche that killed all the other children in his play group" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook). Furthermore, he used his "innate talent with the Force to keep a small group of forgotton colonists alive" (Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice). These colonists were on the planet Eol Sha, a planet noted as: "A volcanic world whose surface was covered with scalding geysers and bubbling lava fissures (home of the dangerous lava fireworm)" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclodia). Thus, Gantoris would need to have considerable Force talents, while having no training in the practice, to be the one keeping a small society alive on such a harsh planet.

Then we have the students in which Gantoris, and by extension Kyp, scale above. The main two I'm going to look at initially will be Kam Solusar and Streen. Prior to his Jedi training on Yavin, Kam Solusar "became one of Palpatine's seven Dark Side Adepts" (The New Essential Guide to Characters) or Dark Side Elite: "The planet later served as the headquarters of the dark side Executor Sedriss and the Emperor's elite force of Dark Jedi, including Kam Solusar" (StarWars.com Databank Archives - Vjun). These Adepts, likely including Palpatine's Elite Corps, are noted for their power:

Handbook Volume III - Dark Empire wrote:While some were merely yes-men, cronies barely fit to be footstools in the Imperial Court, others possessed tremendous strength in the Force. Coupled with maniacal lust for power, or merely psychotic, these dark side adepts were some of the most dangerous Force users in the galaxy short of the Emperor himself.


Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:While none of them were permitted to advance far compared to Palpatine’s own level of power, they did become quite powerful indeed.


These adepts were "capable sorcerers in their own right" and were "powerful Dark Side magicians" (Dark Empire Endnotes). They were capable of "spawning living monstrocities - beasts and intelligent entities, some unspeakably ugly, some full of malevolent charm and symmetry, all utterly permeated by the power of the Dark Side" (Dark Empire Endnotes). Sorzus Syn herself notes that the use of alchemy on the living is "suited only for masters" (Book of Sith) and that "the most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith." (Dark Side Sourcebook). Thus, to be a member of the Elite, Solusar would likely have had to have known such abilties, or at least be powerful enough to be equal to or exceed the power of Sidious' adepts who did.

While Kyp as of his training wouldn't possess those abilties himself, his power would at least be greater than those that can which is noteworthy when one observes that a Force user needs to be at least moderately powerful to perform them.

Then there's Streen whom who could generate whirlwinds that could have one "crash thousands of feet" if caught up in it and managed to catch Leia and have her "thrown through the air, flying like an insect toward the stone walls" (Jedi Academy III - Champoins of the Force). He also countered Exar Kun's choke hold over the Jedi Praxeum by pushing air into their lungs (Jedi Academy III - Champions of the Force).

When Kyp fell under Kun's sway he was promised to "study the dark side" (Dark Side Sourcebook). Judging by the fact that Gantoris, who was previously swayed toward Kun, had allegedly learned "new forbidden power" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook) and "he could draw on the energy he required using different methods, secrets he had been taught that the other students did not suspect" (Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice). I point this out because it is likely also the case that Kun taught Kyp extra abilities, something made clear in the novels:

Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice wrote:Insects and small biting creatures buzzed and scuttled around them, but none bothered Kyp. He consciously exuded a shadow of uneasiness around him so that lower creatures had no incentive to come nearer. Exar Kun had taught him that trick too.


Kyp had "brashly used a Sith technique to generate an unappetizing aura around himself" (Jedi Academy III - Champions of the Force). Not to mention the fact that when he returns to confront Luke Skywalker on Yavin Kyp also knows lightning when he previously didn't, having "blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force" (Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice). And lastly we have Kyp raising dark side tendrils in his and Exar's confrontation against Luke:

Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice wrote:Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force.


I say Kyp because as the book notes that the tendrils attacked Luke before "the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force."
I raise these points, less so due to the abilities themselves, and more so to highlight that Kyp learned new abilities and knowledge under Kun's tuteledge. Typically, when a Force user expands their wealth of knowledge, their power also increases with it. For example,  Dooku when he began studying the dark side. Thus it likely the case the Kyp experienced another growth in power, thus exceeding that of his Jedi Trainee self whom was already above the other students.

By 12 ABY, Kyp maintained his position above the other students with Luke noting that he was "his own finest student" (Children of the Jedi) and "greatest student" (Jedi Academy: Leviathan #1).
Thus, Kyp maintians superiority over the students who at this point can throw boulders and rocks at Tie Fighters with enough force to penetrate them:

Darksaber wrote:Three TIE fighters roared in, laser cannons shooting continuously as they approached in a triangular formation. The warrior woman Kirana Ti stood out in the open near the piles of rubble the Jedi trainees had so meticulously removed from the ruins. The TIE fighters saw her and fired. Ignoring her own danger, she gestured with her hand and, using the Force as a sling, she snatched one of the squarish boulders cut by Massassi slaves thousands of years before-and hurled it with all her Jedi strength.

The stone flew through the air and smashed one of the TIE fighter's flat power arrays. It careened to one side, and the pilot could not regain control. The ship exploded in the trees on the far side of the temple.

Kam Solusar stood on the other side of the clearing and, using the Force, he, too, began hurling rocks at the remaining two TIE fighters. The boulders battered the Imperial ships, smashing through the cockpits. All the Jedi trainees had the idea now, and a blast of sharp rock shards hammered the two fleeing ships out of the sky. Both exploded in midflight to the cheers of the embattled Jedi students.


Streen who managed to use alter-environment to slam four Ties together:

Darksaber wrote:Streen, however, did not pick up rocks or other weapons with the Force. He used the air itself, moving molecules in the atmosphere to summon storm currents and scramble the air attack line with a wall of wind that achieved hurricane strength. The gusting currents buffeted the TIE fighters right and left, forcing the pilots to concentrate on simply flying and not allowing them to fire a single shot.

Streen looked up into the sky, his eyes wide and bloodshot, his hair wafting about his head. He held his trembling fingers outstretched and then brought his hands together symbolically, slamming his hands of wind so that the heavy crosscurrents smashed the four TIE fighters together. They crashed into a single knot of molten wreckage that tumbled out of the air.


And Dorsk 81, who on pure instinct, destroyed an AT-ST with TK:

Darksaber wrote:Dorsk 81 froze for just an instant. He saw what was going to happen-but he couldn't allow it. In an instinctive gesture, he released the Force; he did not restrain him-self, did not channel or direct the flow, merely releasing his fear and his wish to get the scout walker away from his friend.

A wall of invisible force slammed into the AT-ST, flattening its cockpit and crushing the walker backward into a tree.


And then there is Kyp one-shotting a Leviathan with alter-environment:

Topics tagged under 1 on Suspect Insight Forums 59221510

In the interim between 12 ABY and 25 ABY as he recovered from the Exar Kun incident, Kyp grew into one of the strongest and most powerful Jedi, implying he grew in power during this period:

The Official Star Wars Factfile - #40 wrote:He recovered, however, becoming one of Luke’s strongest and most loyal students.


The Official Star Wars Factfile - #115 wrote:A Restored Reputation: Following his fall to the dark side, Kyp Durron worked hard to restore his reputation as a Jedi. Under the guidance of Luke Skywalker, Kyp restrained and quickly became a very powerful Jedi and his help was vital during the Yuuzhan Vong invasion.


During the Vong war and after, Kyp has feats like ragdolling shuttles:

New Jedi Order - Star by Star wrote:The corvette lashed out with plasma cannons and magma missiles, and Anakin’s display filled with streaks of red energy. Nothing wrong with Big Eye’s sensor package. Kyp had destroyed the shuttle … how? The Force? It didn’t seem possible. Only the most powerful Jedi could use it that way


And casually moving the Jade Shadow:

Legacy of the Force IV: Exile wrote:"No." He glanced to the left, where the nearby Jedi Temple was clearly visible just past the Jade Shadow's stern. "Unless you'd like to save your engines-I can just pick you up and set you down over there." He reached out with his hand, palm up, an overly dramatic gesture, and the Jade Shadow vibrated for a moment, moving under the pressure he exerted with the Force.


I'm too lazy to get into the Dovin Bassal feat as this post is long enough.

However, to sum up. Vong War (and likely onward) Kyp > 12 ABY Kyp =/> 11 ABY Dark Side Kyp > 11 ABY Jedi Trainee Kyp >>> Gantoris > The Jedi Students.

To conclude, I think Kyp's scaling, innate ability and breadth of powers far outstrips that of Jinn's own and depending on how he approaches this fight he should be able to utilize this advantage to garner an easy win. Jinn's saving grace in this fight is perhaps his level of skill, but if he does outstrip Kyp in this regard I do not believe it is by a massive degree, but again I can't be arsed getting into it just now. If yourself or someone else responds, perhaps we can get the ball rolling on that.[/quote]
by The Lost
on May 3rd 2019, 11:42 pm
 
Search in: Finished Suspect Showdowns (SS)
Topic: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)
Replies: 57
Views: 6360

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

Sidious and Maul returned to Mustafar. For fourteen days, Sidious put Maul through a series of grueling physical tests. Maul defended himself against lightsaber-wielding droids in the training room. Blindfolded, he threw daggers at robotic targets, which threw the daggers back at him. He was blindfolded again before he climbed into a starship flight simulator wired with disciplinary electrodes. He wore a sensory-deprivation suit when he ran through a maze that was lined with razor-edged walls, and also when he was deposited into a previously unexplored Mustafarian cove. In locked chambers, he was exposed to extreme temperatures and deprived of food. For each test, he drew strength from the dark side of the Force.

When the fourteen days were over, Maul was exhausted. His entire body ached as he stood before Sidious in the meeting room. Not only had he passed every test, he had destroyed every test. However, his Master always expected more from him, so he was not entirely surprised when Sidious said, "Because you have survived the preliminaries, you may proceed to the actual test to become a Sith Lord,"

Maul willed his body to remain standing.

'"I am sending you to a planet in the Outer Rim" Sidious continued. "It is made up of three kinds of terrain. Desert, swamp, and mountains. You will have at least three matches on each terrain. I have sent a fleet of assassin droids to attack you. Each is programmed with different strategies. Some will work together. Some will work alone. They are all programmed to kill."

Maul turned to face his Master. Although Maul remained silent, the fire in his eyes betrayed his surprise. And his excitement.

Sidious noticed Maul's reaction. "That is correct. I am prepared to lose what I most value. So must you be to become a Sith. You must be prepared to lose your own life in order to win."

Maul nodded. "I understand, my Master."

"You will have to survive for a month." Sidious added. "You will have only a survival pack."

Despite his exhaustion. Maul felt exhilarated. He was determined to prove he was the best apprentice in the history of the Sith.
[...]
The assassin droids were relentless. Programmed to fight to the death, they had blasters built into their chests and hands. No matter how hard Maul tried to conceal himself or his desperately improvised camps, the droids found him. They never slept, never allowed Maul to sleep for very long, never hesitated before they pounced. When Maul did manage to rest and recover, he fell asleep knowing he would be awakened by an attack.

The droid drove him into the frozen mountains and across the burning deserts. Maul's survival pack was torn from his back and lost in one battle. And after twenty days, Maul realized he was at risk of losing something else. His mind.

Because the attacks never stopped.

Maul was beyond paranoid. He had reason to believe that every sound, every shape, and every shadow on Hypori was a potential threat.

He grew thin and his strength began to ebb. He foraged for food when he could. Life was scarce on Hypori, but he found a few small animals, killed them, and ate them raw, because he dared not risk building a fire that would attract more droids.

It was while he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages.

The wound festered. The pain was blinding. He listened for approaching droids but heard none. The days blurred, but Maul was almost certain that a full month had passed since he had arrived on Hypori. As he fell into and out of restless sleep. Maul began to wonder if his Master had forgotten him.

His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mount of the cave.
[...]
Sidious moved into the cave. He came to a stop near Maul. Smiling as he looked down at his apprentice, he said. "Now it is time for your final battle."

Maul wondered if he had heard correctly. He knew his Master must have been able to see plainly that he was not fit to stand. And yet he also knew his Master never tolerated weakness of any kind. Maul scrabbled at the cave's walls and pulled himself up. His balance was off. Searing pain shot through his leg as he lurched forward.

Sidious handed Maul a lightsaber. Maul fumbled with the weapon and activated it. The cave's walls shimmered with light.

Maul did not realize how parched his throat was until he rasped, "Where is the assassin droid, Master?"

Stepping back from Maul, Sidious drew his own lightsaber and ignited its red blade. "I will be your opponent."

Maul stared at his Master with disbelief. And then his disbelief changed to anger. He summoned up the dark side of the Force. He felt a burning sensation flicker and grow within him, a trickle of strength. He took a step toward his Master.

Sidious sneered. "You cannot be as pathetic as you look." He raised his lightsaber and attacked.

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to hinge at empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.

Sidious said from behind Maul. "You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."

Maul's anger turned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow. He fell against the opposite wall and gasped for breath.

Sidious howled with laughter. "I expected your failure. I saw your weaknesses long ago. Your doubts in your own abilities. Your lack of faith in my teaching. Your inability to embrace the dark side. And that is why, over these long years, I have secretly trained another apprentice."

Maul stared hard at Sidious.

"Oh, poor Maul. All he ever wanted was a friend. Does it please you to know I have another apprentice? Does it make you feel less alone?"

Still trying to catch his breath. Maul said. "More than one apprentice... is against the rules of the Sith."

"You are right," Sidious said with a grin. "A spark of intelligence, at last." He gestured to the mouth of the cave. "My second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He only sustained a flesh wound. He is healthy. He is strong. Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me."

Maul realized his opponents had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master.

Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.

Sidious snickered. "Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?"

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master's blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

Sheev only fought defensively with a training saber and didn’t want to kill Maul - but it doesn’t change the fact Maul pushed Sheev back with blows he barely deflected, and came close to killing him.

Days later Maul recovered his strength and felt “stronger than ever before.”
"From this day forward." Sidious said," you are a Sith Lord. You have chosen a path of darkness, the path of power. You are Lord Maul. You are my instrument."
[...]
Sidious and Maul returned to Coruscant, where a medical droid tended to Maul’s injuries. Maul had felt drained by his trials on Hypori, but within several days he felt stronger than ever before. Now that he was a Sith Lord, he was empowered by a sense of purpose.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

Also, in his journal, Maul states he was "only beginning to taste the dark power of a Sith" shortly after this fight (still at the age of 17).
My Master points to the entry. "This will be your weapon, Lord Maul. In order to serve me well, you must be invincible. "

He tells me I must build it myself so that I know it intimately. It shall be fitted to my hand, balanced for my stroke. I shall train with it until it is part of me. And then I will join him on the greatest mission of all.

"What is that, Master?" I dare to ask.

"The domination of the entire galaxy, " he tells me.

That day, I feel a savage exhilaration close to the joy I feel in battle. I am involved in great things. Domination. Control.

I am only beginning to taste the dark power of a Sith.

―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul spent any free time he had meditating and training, which always left him feeling stronger than before.
When Maul finished with the tree, he reluctantly returned the lightsaber lo his Master. Sidious said, "Now, it is time for you to meditate."

"Yes, Master." Maul turned and walked out of the grove, heading into the neighboring field. Sidious had trained him to relax his mind and body by closing his eyes and visualizing a dark, comfortable nothingness, leaving himself open to the power of the Force. Maul enjoyed meditating. It always left him feeling stronger.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul
"Take the Infiltrator and your combat droids and return to your former home. There, train and meditate until I recall you."

―Darth Sidious (Darth Plagueis)
Maul’s entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Maul also grew in strength in response to tribulation and injury.
“Jagannath,” he said. “You’re looking surprisingly well, all things considered.”
Maul said nothing. In the twelve hours since his last fight, he’d recovered almost completely from the wounds that the Wampa had inflicted on him. His face still bore the blood-encrusted slash marks from its claws, but he’d regained full use of his arm, and his strength actually seemed to have intensified in response to the attack, like an organism that had thrived from being pruned down close to the taproot.

―Maul: Lockdown

Sheev observed Maul’s power constantly growing because of his rage alone, “anger that was constantly sweltering inside his apprentice, fermenting as Maul’s power continued to intensify. Locked in unswerving allegiance to their cause, the Zabrak’s heart was a reactor of pure, distilled rage.”
The Sith Lord harbored no delusions about his apprentice’s ambition or pride, or how closely those elements were linked to the anger that was constantly sweltering inside his apprentice, fermenting as Maul’s power continued to intensify. Locked in unswerving allegiance to their cause, the Zabrak’s heart was a reactor of pure, distilled rage.

―Maul: Lockdown

Plagueis instructed Sheev to allow Maul’s anger and hatred to fester.
"I agree with you that he should bear witness to the Yinchorri attack on the Jedi Temple."

"I will tell him. He already thinks of the Jedi as abominations. The sight of their sanctuary being violated will quicken his blood."

"Even so, hold him back. Let his anger and hatred fester."

―Darth Plagueis

It’s stated that the Sith continued expanding their dark powers up until the point they revealed themselves to the Jedi.
"Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunity to seize control of the galaxy."

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #1

Maul in his fight with Jinn and Kenobi, up to that point, had never fought better. His particular hatred for the Jedi drove him further, but even without that, he was better than he ever was before.
Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. He had worked and trained all his life for this moment, for a chance to meet a Jedi Knight in combat. It was an added bonus that he was able to engage two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win. He was focused in a way that Qui-Gon recognized at once-a Jedi's focus, mindful of the present, locked in on what was needed in the here and now. Qui-Gon saw it in his mad eyes and in the set of his red and black tattooed features. The Sith Lord was a living example of what the Jedi Master was always telling Obi-Wan about how best to hear the will of the Force.

―The Phantom Menace

Even at the climax of the battle he seemed “fresh as ever” - Maul can summon more power in TPM, without tapping deeply into his reserves, than at any point prior including when he “nearly bested” 37BBY Sheev, back when he was “only beginning to taste the dark power of a Sith.”
The Sith Lord attacked Obi-Wan relentlessly, backing him around the melting pit. All Obi-Wan's efforts could not break through his guard. And Obi-Wan was tiring, while his opponent seemed as fresh as ever.

―The Phantom Menace Junior Novelisation

Circa TPM, Sheev casually twirling a lightsaber was fast enough to be untraceable to Maul’s senses.
"The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead."

―Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

Sheev’s power intensified between TPM and TCW because of his apotheosis after killing Plagueis, his study of the Force, his training of Dooku, and the growth of the dark side.
A tremor took hold of the planet.

Sprung from death, it unleashed itself in a powerful wave, at once burrowing deep into the world’s core and radiating through its saccharine atmosphere to shake the stars themselves. At the quake’s epicenter stood Sidious, one elegant hand vised on the burnished sill of an expansive translucency, a vessel filled suddenly to bursting, the Force so strong within him that he feared he might disappear into it, never to return. But the moment didn’t constitute an ending so much as a true beginning, long overdue; it was less a transformation than an intensification—a gravitic shift.

A welter of voices, near and far, present and from eons past, drowned his thoughts. Raised in praise, the voices proclaimed his reign and cheered the inauguration of a new order. Yellow eyes lifted to the night sky, he saw the trembling stars flare, and in the depth of his being he felt the power of the dark side anoint him.

Slowly, almost reluctantly, he came back to himself, his gaze settling on his manicured hands. Returned to the present, he took note of his rapid breathing, while behind him the room labored to restore order. Air scrubbers hummed—costly wall tapestries undulating in the summoned breeze. Prized carpets sealed their fibers against the spread of spilled fluids. The droid shuffled in obvious confliction. Sidious pivoted to take in the disarray: antique furniture overturned; framed artwork askew. As if a whirlwind had swept through. And facedown on the floor lay a statue of Yanjon, one of four law-giving sages of Dwartii.

A piece Sidious had secretly coveted.

Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.

And now dead.

Or was he?

Uncertainty rippled through Sidious, rage returning to his eyes. A tremor of his own making, or one of forewarning? Was it possible that the wily Muun had deceived him? Had Plagueis unlocked the key to immortality, and survived after all? Never mind that it would constitute a petty move for one so wise—for one who had professed to place the Grand Plan above all else. Had Plagueis become ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness, victim of his own engineering, his own foibles?

If he hadn’t been concerned for his own safety, Sidious might have pitied him. Wary of approaching the corpse of his former Master, he called on the Force to roll the aged Muun over onto his back. From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier: smooth, hairless cranium; humped nose, with its bridge flattened as if from a shock-ball blow and its sharp tip pressed almost to his upper lip; jutting lower jaw; sunken eyes still brimming with menace—a physical characteristic rarely encountered in a Muun. But then Plagueis had never been an ordinary Muun, nor an ordinary being of any sort.

Sidious took care, still reaching out with the Force. On closer inspection, he saw that Plagueis’s already cyanotic flesh was smoothing out, his features relaxing.

Faintly aware of the whir of air scrubbers and sounds of the outside world infiltrating the luxurious suite, he continued the vigil; then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone.

Wry amusement narrowed his eyes.

The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest. But in the end—though he could save others from death—he had failed to save himself.

A sense of supreme accomplishment puffed Sidious’s chest, and his thoughts unreeled.

Well, then, that wasn’t nearly as bad as we thought it might be...

Rarely did events play out as imagined, in any case. The order of future events was transient. In the same way that the past was reconfigured by selective memory, future events, too, were moving targets. One could only act on instinct, grab hold of an intuited perfect moment, and spring into action. One heartbeat late and the universe would have recomposed itself, no imposition of will sufficient to forestall the currents. One could only observe and react. Surprise was the element absent from any periodic table. A keystone element; a missing ingredient. The means by which the Force amused itself. A reminder to all sentient beings that some secrets could never be unlocked.

Confident that the will of the dark side had been done, he returned to the suite’s window wall. Two beings in a galaxy of countless trillions, but what had transpired in the suite would affect the lives of all of them. Already the galaxy had been shaped by the birth of one, and henceforth would be reshaped by the death of the other. But had the change been felt and recognized elsewhere? Were his sworn enemies aware that the Force had shifted irrevocably? Would it be enough to rouse them from self-righteousness? He hoped not. For now the work of vengeance could begin in earnest.

His eyes sought and found an ascending constellation of stars, one of power and consequence new to the sky, though soon to be overwhelmed by dawn’s first light. Low in the sky over the flatlands, visible only to those who knew where and how to look, it ushered in a bold future. To some the stars and planets might seem to be moving as ever, destined to align in configurations calculated long before their fiery births. But in fact the heavens had been perturbed, tugged by dark matter into novel alignments. In his mouth, Sidious tasted the tang of blood; in his chest, he felt the monster rising, emerging from shadowy depths and contorting his aspect into something fearsome just short of revealing itself to the world.

The dark side had made him its property, and now he made the dark side his.

Breathless, not from exertion but from the sudden inspiration of power, he let go of the sill and allowed the monster to writhe through his body like an unbroken beast of range or prairie.

Had the Force ever been so strong in anyone?

Sidious had never learned how Plagueis’s own Master had met his end. Had he died at Plagueis’s hand? Had Plagueis, too, experienced a similar exultation on becoming a sole Sith Lord? Had the beast of the end time risen then to peek at the world it was to inhabit, knowing its release was imminent?

―Darth Plagueis
Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

―The Complete Visual Dictionary
Strong, this Sith Lord is, Yoda thought as their lightsabers whirled and clashed and whirled again. It should not have been a surprise. With the strength of the dark side growing, the Sith must, logically, have grown stronger, too.

―Revenge of the Sith junior novelization
To Mace's Force perception, the world crystallized around them, becoming a gem of reality shot through with flaws and fault lines of possibility. This was Mace's particular gift: to see how people and situations fit together in the Force, to find the shear planes that can cause them to break in useful ways, and to intuit what sort of strike would best make the cut. Though he could not consistently determine the significance of the structures he perceived—the darkening cloud upon the Force that had risen with the rebirth of the Sith made that harder and harder with each passing day—the presence of shatterpoints was always clear.

―Revenge of the Sith novelization
Only the Jedi were not surprised. For on Geonosis, Obi-Wan Kenobi and his Padawan apprentice, Anakin Skywalker, had learned that Count Dooku had turned to the dark side of the Force — and the power of the dark side had been growing for years. The Jedi knew that defeating the Separatists would be neither quick nor easy with a Dark Lord of the Sith aiding them.

―Revenge of the Sith junior novelization
"Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunity to seize control of the galaxy."

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #1
The Sith spent a thousand years evolving by studying all aspects of the Force, remaking themselves, whereas the Jedi spent a thousand years training to refight the last war against the Sith.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

―Revenge of the Sith

In TCW, Sheev fought harder against Maul than ever before (“But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.”) Yet Maul is able to respond to his blows, and no mention is made of Sheev being too fast to follow or track at this stage.
Maul sprang to his feet and ignited his lightsaber. Savage did the same. The two Zabraks stared grimly at the hooded figure. Sidious retrieved a pair of elegant-looking lightsabers from within the depths of his robes and ignited them. The blades turned his pale face a hellish red.

Maul and Savage didn’t waste time seeking an advantageous position. They simply charged, blades shimmering, trying to overpower Sidious with the animal ferocity of their attack. Sidious caught their sabers on his, the weapons howling and crackling where they touched. Maul saw that Savage was startled by the seemingly frail man’s enormous strength. Maul stared at his Master’s face. He saw the strain as Sidious called upon the Force to keep the brothers at bay. But there was something else there, too—a terrible pleasure. Sidious began to grin.
[...]
The three-pronged duel between Sidious, and Maul and Savage had moved, like some deadly ballet, from the throne room to the steps of the palace. Sidious’s lightsabers twirled swiftly and elegantly, turning aside the furious blows Maul and Savage rained down upon him as the three Sith leapt and spun.

Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he’d been in Sidious’s presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Unbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

Savage knew the dangers of facing the Sith Lord alone, and pressed his attack before Sidious draw his hand back from Force-shoving Maul into the wall. Teeth bared, Savage windmilled his double saber, hoping to disarm Sidious or force him to give ground. If he did, that would allow the yellow-and-black Zabrak to follow his initial attack with a lightning-quick thrust that would penetrate Sidious’s defenses and wound or even kill him.

Maul tried to shake off his attack, rocketing up from the floor. Sidious neatly side-stepped Savage’s assault, drawing back as the massive Zabrak raised his double-bladed saber high to try to pummel him with it. Savage didn’t think Sidious was fast enough to take advantage of the brief opening in his defenses, but he was wrong.

Sidious rammed one of his blades through Savage’s black armor, the glowing crimson tip of the saber appearing between his shoulder blades. Savage gasped, his saber tumbling from his grasp. Sidious yanked his weapon back and Savage seemed to hang suspended for a moment, as if he were being levitated by with the Force. Then he crashed to the ground.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Sheev then ramps up his attack even further, “flying” at Maul. Sheev’s sabers only then became a “blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma”. Maul countered some blows, danced away from one, avoided another, and then parried the final blows which “were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.” After meeting each of these strikes Maul was disarmed.
Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Maul fought better against a faster, more powerful Sheev with lethal intent. A decade prior he completely bewildered his perceptions with casual lightsaber movements and outclassed him in “mere training exercises.”

TCW Maul is quite noticeably faster than TPM Maul and should overall outclass his former self.

Sheev killed Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar, two of the most celebrated Jedi duelists in history, before they could react.
A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu's fist. "Don't try to resist."

The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor.

"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"

He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin-you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?"

Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk.

Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor.

Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"

The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.

"It doesn't . . ." Agen Kolar swayed.

His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head.

". . . hurt . . ."

He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.

Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire.

―Revenge of the Sith
Which would leave Mace and Agen Kolar-both among the greatest bladesbeings the Jedi Order had ever produced-here on Coruscant in case Sidious did indeed take this opportunity to make a dramatic move.

―Revenge of the Sith
"I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."

"What about Skywalker? The chosen one."

"Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth."
[...]
"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

―Revenge of the Sith
Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

―Revenge of the Sith
Saesee's flying practise also helped to hone his Force abilities. By the time he arrived at the Jedi Temple, he was already adept at channeling his Force connection. As he progressed in the Order, he was acknowledged as having one of the strongest Force abilities of all the Jedi.

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #114

Yes, Sheev had the element of surprise to an extent over Tiin, but that only goes so far in explaining how he blitzed them. Sheev flew across the room and gutted them before they could react, despite them looking at him, knowing he is the Sith Lord and expecting a fight.

Sheev similarly "flew" at Maul immediately after he was finished holding his dying brother, so Maul wasn’t in a better position than Tiin to defend from Sheev.

In any case, SW.com has already confirmed that he killed them before they could react.
Before the Jedi could react, Palpatine sprang into action and killed all of them except Mace Windu.

―Taken from starwars.com, Palpatine Biography Gallery, Image 26 of 29

This also scales Maul much higher than Fisto, who died shortly after Kolar even with Face Windu aiding him.
Green fans, sheets of purple-And crimson flame.

He was too late.

The green fire faded and winked out; now the lightning was only purple and red.

―Revenge of the Sith

It is stated by Dave Filoni (and is self-evident) that Savage, who is Maul’s inferior, put up a better fight against Sheev than the Jedi trio combined.
"You know, getting taken out by Sidious is pretty good, ranks up there. He puts up a better fight than the Jedi Council did, I'll say that much for him"

―Dave Filoni from Wrath of the Sith, an installment of “Clone Wars Download” on starwars.com
https://www.starwars.com/video/wrath-of-the-sith

It’s stated Sheev “stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard” and that upon creating an opening in Maul’s guard that “was the smallest stumble, easily corrected”, “Sidious saw it-and pounced before Maul could draw himself back.”, Indeed, Sheev “Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall.”
The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.
[...]
But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

—Shadow Conspiracy

Maul’s Force Defences cannot be ripped through even by Sheev without an opening. Sheev had to engineer the "smallest" chink in Maul’s armor, "pounce" on it and “snarl” as he blasted him.

Arcann is not doing shit with TK. He lacks the skill to create the necessary opening in Maul’s guard and he lacks the power to brute force Maul’s defences. Maul is more skilled and more powerful than Arcann, so he could even crush Arcann’s windpipe ala Obi-Wan if he doesn’t gut him first.

The fact skillz went as far as to suggest Arcann would shit on Maul is laughable. With all of the feats/scaling for Venamis, Tenebrous, Plagueis and Sheev outlined, Maul pushing back and nearly killing 37BBY!Sheev before a huge increase in power by TPM, and another profound increase by TCW wherein he performed admirably against CW Sheev… this is simply better than anything you could possibly outline for Arcann.

Arcann nor anyone he has beaten has a single strength, speed or TK feat that matches up to Maul - thus far all he really has is beating the HoT, which pales in comparison.

Skillz tacitly conceded depth and breadth of Force knowledge, training quality, lightsaber skill and accolades of any description to TPM Maul without resistance by ignoring my first post. He made his methodology clear:
Skillz wrote:Ultimately, however, it’s simply too loose a comparison to analyze characters in terms of an arbitrary force potential/knowledge/experience ratio, as this relationship is not consistent or static across all cases, but actually extremely inconsistent, volatile and dynamic (as shown by Kenobi, Anakin, Luke, and their relative potential to training ratios, along with incalculably many others). [b]It’s much more productive to analyze what Maul actually accomplished and compare it to what Arcann actually accomplished.[/b] Arcann gets no bonus points in the end results for inheriting Valk-Senya genes and training, and neither should Maul for possessing Talzin genes and Sidious training.


Maul also has better feats, which is the only leg Skillz has to stand on. Even if I use Skillz’ own methodology, Maul still wins.

Rebuttal

I am ignoring any "preemptive counters" Skillz made as I did not make any of those arguments. My 1st post only contains facts, so there is nothing to refute. I don’t want anyone to finish reading believing that Skillz made a single salient point which was not countered here - if it was not addressed it is because it was irrelevant.

The above scans display Arcann using the force numerous times in conjunction with his lightsaber skills to overcome the HoTlander over the course of their fight, (the significance of which I will elaborate on shortly,) but I believe this is one of the primary reasons Arcann will actually win the fight beyond just a comparison of their sheer force power, in which Arcann is in vast excess of Maul, but because Arcann possesses a lightsaber and force defense so robust that, in conjunction with his offensive force usage, will keep Maul at bay indefinitely until he makes a mistake or Arcann simply overpowers him.

Prove it.

First and foremost, the Fact File quote you provided to indicate that Yoda and Windu are the most powerful jedi in history by TPM is in-universe, meaning it’s far more subject to scrutiny and interpretation than an out of universe quote

There is no reason to doubt the veracity of the "Fact" Files, which per the article I linked are said to contain "Facts" and "Information". So this argument without evidence is dismissed.

Regarding Dooku, I think it’s a bit misleading to imply that him growing more powerful under Sidious’ tutelage is indicative of how Maul must have achieved a similar level of superior growth and power. Dooku joined Sidious whilst already having been an immensely well-learned and old/wise Jedi Master, but he had never dabbled in the dark side to nearly the extent that the Banite archives had to offer, and [1]in possession of an aptitude of the force far superior to that of Maul, along with an enormous base of knowledge that had already been developed as a Jedi, [2]would allow him to rapidly develop his abilities upon being introduced to new dark side knowledge. [3]Maul doesn’t have an overall depth of knowledge even approaching that of Dooku given the latter’s decades upon decades of learning and training in the jedi arts, which easily could have supplemented his tutelage under Sidious.

1. It’s an assumption that Dooku had "an aptitude of the force far superior to that of Maul"
2. Dooku "rapidly developing his abilities" was attributed to what Sheev taught him, per earlier quotes. Dooku having prerequisite attributes which enhanced the rate at which he grew is conjecture.
3. The Banites delved into all aspects of the Force including the Jedi arts, and Maul was trained by Sheev to push his "Force abilities to the extreme.", to be "strong in every way", trained in "all forms of the Sith arts"/"all types of Sith ways"/"trained in [Sidious'] likeness" and as a legitimate Banite Sith who could temporarily break the Rule of Two. The idea Maul’s "depth of knowledge" is not "even approaching that of Dooku" then, is laughable.

To get a rough idea of the level Arcann is operating at circa mid-KOTFE, It’s important to note just how powerful the HoTlander is during this point in time. By the end of Act 1/start of Act 2 he (1) is already the most powerful jedi in the galaxy, above the likes of Barsen’thor and Satele Shan

Character opinions are fallible, so there is no proof HoT is superior to every Jedi, and you didn’t show feats for any of these Jedi.

and (2) from the end of Act 2 to the start of Act 3 goes from stalemating Lord Scourge (3)

Just because for a time they fought to a “standstill” does not mean they are equals, any more than this quote proves Jinn and Maul were equal:
Stroke for stroke, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither.

Then the Sith Lord parried a downstroke, whirled swiftly to the right, and with his back to the Jedi Master, made a blind, reverse lunge. Too late, Qui-Gon recognized the danger. The blade of the Sith Lord's lightsaber caught him directly in the midsection, its brilliant length burning through clothing and flesh and bone.

―The Phantom Menace

Scourge taking a knee after the fight proves he lost.

to being too powerful for Vitiate to TP in the heart of the Dark Temple after fighting through swarms of elite Imperial Guards, (4) whereas Scourge “cannot resist [Vitiate’s] direct influence” per his own admission:
Keep in mind that Vitiate was “no match” for the Hero of Tython (despite being capable of mindraping Scourge with his direct influence) despite the fact that the Hero “dissipated his energy saving the weak”: in this case Vitiate is referring to the Hero giving him extra time to gather his energy while the Hero saved his apprentice in the midst of a monumentally powerful dark side nexus.

You gave zero feats for Scourge. This doesn’t stack up to Maul, not even close. Also, Vitiate’s skills as a fighter are woeful, which no doubt helped the HoT win the fight aside from a simple power comparison. HoT only needed to be strong enough to resist Vitiate’s powers and close the gap, which really says nothing about the HoT’s abilities outside of his ability to do just that. Vitiate was “no match” because he lost, that’s all.

Between the events of Act 2 and Act 3, Scourge marvels at the sheer power and potential that the Hero of Tython possesses, so much so that he believes had the Hero fully embraced and been trained in the dark side he would be the most powerful force user in Galactic History:
What is important about this quote is that it falls in line with Scourge’s aspirations that the HoT’s son would become an unprecedented power in the galaxy, he is synonymously equating their potential to wield a never-before seen level of power:

I do not give a shit about Scourge’s opinion on HoT’s potential, and you can’t prove how much of it is actualised. Nothing in my first post mentioned Maul’s potential and also you yourself disparaged the idea that potential is a worthwhile metric to use - everything you just said is meaningless per both our standards.

Even by the End of Act 3, we have indications that the Hero of Tython is implied to be every bit the prodigy that Darth Maul is and then some: a prophesied champion of light, wielding potential arguably unrivalled in Galactic History at that point, (at least for what is known by Scourge, which would include Revan, the Dread Masters, and hundreds of Dark Council members and other prodigies across centuries) destined to overcome the Galaxy-wiping threat that is Tenebrae.

I see no reason to think the HoT is "every bit the prodigy that Darth Maul is", your unsourced tangent noted. Darth Maul was selected and trained by Sheev to be an heir to the Banites, and unlike Scourge, Sheev had the ability to judge potential with more accuracy than the "crude" midichlorian tester which the Jedi used. He knew Maul was strong enough to inherit his mantle and trained him accordingly. Darth Bane and Darth Venamis, whose feats I can/have detailed at length, were said by Plagueis to be "anachronisms", so let’s just say that even if we want to play the "potential" game, which my argument is not reliant on, Maul would still win easily.
Among the ship's crew, the Togruta, Captain Lah, had been the strongest in the Force, but she was beyond his help by the time he reached her. Had it not been for sloppiness on his part, owing to fatigue and blood loss, and lightning-fast reflexes on hers, the lightsaber might simply have pierced her neck and cervical spinal cord. But she had spun at the moment of impact, and the crimson blade had all but decapitated her. The Zabrak, too, had a slightly higher-than-normal midi-chlorian count, but not high enough to make him Force-sensitive. How different it had been to observe the behavior of the Zabrak's midi-chlorians compared with those of Darth Tenebrous, only two days earlier!

The Jedi routinely performed blood tests to verify the midi-chlorian counts of prospective trainees, but Plagueis had passed beyond the need for such crude measurements. He could not only sense the strength of the Force in another but also perceive the midi-chlorians that individualized Forceful beings. It was that dark side ability that had allowed generations of Sith to locate and initiate recruits. The dispersal of midi-chlorians at the moment of physical death was, for lack of a better term, inexorable. Analogous to his fated confrontation with the Woebegone crew, the moment of death appeared to be somehow fixed in space and time. According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis's gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away.

―Darth Plagueis
Blood analysis had revealed a high midi-chlorian count, which to Plagueis was further indication that a being could have great potential in the Force and yet still be inept. He wondered: was it Venamis he had felt through the Force after the murder of Tenebrous? A Jedi would have made for a more interesting experimental subject, but a Dark Side Adept was perhaps better suited to his purposes. And soon enough the adjacent bacta tank would contain a Force-resistant Yinchorri, as well.

Immediately following the contest on Sojourn, Plagueis had commanded members of the Sun Guard to locate the starship that had allowed Venamis to infiltrate the Hunters' Moon, then move it and the poisoned Bith to Aborah. Larsh Hill and the other Muuns had been apprised that an intruder had been captured and disposed of, but no more than that. An investigation of the ship had yielded data that might have surprised even Darth Tenebrous, who had provided the ship. It seemed that well before he had confronted Plagueis or learned of his Master's fate, Venamis himself had been scouting for potential apprentices. Plagueis could not help being impressed, though begrudgingly. The young Bith would have done well in Bane's era. Now, however, he was an anachronism, and by extension, Tenebrous also.

―Darth Plagueis

After this point, there is a comparable, if not greater time gap between the end of Act 3 and KOTFE Chapter 1 than the gap between Act 2 and Act 3, and as such the HoT experienced tremendous growth during this time, going toe to toe with galactic threats such as Soa, The Terror From Beyond, the Dread Masters, and Revan Reborn. After these events, he is named the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order

Time gaps do not indicate growth. You have not given a source for any on the HoT’s part. Him being a battlemaster is an accolade on par with titans such as Drallig, Katarn and Kas’im, so there’s that?

and performs his most impressive feat yet during the Civil War on Ziost: Defeating Emperor Vitiate while his spirit was focused/honed in on one vessel, as opposed to dividing his attention and energies across multiple:
We know that the Emperor was only inhabiting one body while fighting the Hero of Tython because it is stated that Vitiate “limited his direct involvement” to the area around the Hero: the city of New Adasta and its immediate surroundings. The Hero of Tython’s objective stated by Lana is to ”get all of [Vitiate’s] pawns --every last soldier, Jedi, and Sith -- to stop their slaughter and chase you into the Heart of New Adasta.” the Hero then essentially leads them all to the electrostatic weapon (set to non-lethal levels) in the center of New Adasta, knocking them all unconscious sans Master Surro, Vitiate’s primary host. We see this play out in the above link.

Your claim: “Emperor Vitiate focused all his power in one vessel, remotely, and this possessed host had a level of power worth giving a shit about”

Your evidence: Conjecture based on what Lana wanted HoT to do, the asinine idea that Vitiate focusing on an entire city somehow limits his attention to one host, and the implication that Vitiate had no other pawns to possess or objectives to split his attention other than the dozen or so soldiers that ran into the room with Surro? And the unsupported assumption that Vitiate was channelling a relevant amount of his undivided power into this vessel? Why is it not possible that Vitiate did not or could not manifest even close to his full power in this vessel? We do not know how powerful the Surro vessel was and you have no way to quantify its power.

Ziost Vitiate is operating at ludicrous levels of power, as even at the start of Ziost Vitiate is able to mind dominate and possess hundreds, if not thousands of Sith and Imperial troops, continuously feeding on their energy to grow more powerful, along with the Sixth line (recognized as “an elite cadre of militaristic Jedi” in the SWTOR codex) and the entire Republic Fleet Saresh sends to Ziost (which was large enough to incite planet-wide conflict). Shortly after Vitiate gains the power to conjure hordes of monoliths on the side, which are described as follows:
So Vitiate was powerful enough (while multitasking) to conjure hordes of dark side monstrosities that transcend the alchemical efforts of all prior force users, thus displaying a superiority of intellect, knowledge, fortitude, and power to all prior Sith Lords/alchemists. This is further corroborated by the codex making it clear that monoliths ”plainly illustrate the immeasurable power” of Vitiate, and he only grew stronger in the events leading up to his defeat at the hands of the Hero of Tython.

Anything here that isn’t sourced is dismissed. If Vitiate is conjuring hordes of monoliths, this hurts your conjecture that he gave undivided focus when fighting through Surro.

Shortly after these events and Vitiate’s consumption of Ziost, KOTFE rolls around and the Hero of Tython is dubbed Valkorion’s “most powerful opponent,” an emphatic accolade if applied to the most powerful opponents Valkorion has ever faced, including the likes of Revan Reborn, though this isn’t really necessary to cement the HoTlander’s status.

The syntax does not necessitate that the Outlander is Valk’s "most powerful opponent [ever]", it just says that he is his most powerful opponent. Also the Outlander can be a non-Force user, which begs the question what it means by "most powerful" - certainly not Force power.

The HoTlander undergoes an unquantifiable amount of growth between KOTFE Chapter 2 and 8, at which point he finally faces Arcann, Emperor of the Eternal Throne. As shown at the beginning of my post, Arcann completely overwhelms the Outlander, ragdolling him repeatedly and generally having the upper hand the entire fight. If the HoTlander rejects Valkorion’s assistance, Arcann casually force pulls the Outlander and impales him, as shown here:

Source for this growth? Also, Arcann chaining Force attacks into combat and finding openings is not the same as penetrating one’s Force defences outright, and by the end of a losing duel where one’s reserves are wearing thin it becomes easier to penetrate those defences. Arcann did not "casually" pull the Outlander onto his blade, he did so after wearing him down.

Even if HoTlander accepts Valkorion’s boon of power, Arcann is able to defend against the ensuing lightning tsunami for an extended period of time and is relatively unphased upon being struck by it and sent plummeting hundreds if not thousands of feet to the ground. As I mentioned in my introduction, a much more nuanced analysis of the impressiveness of this feat will take place in a later post.

It’s good that you plan to explain properly why we should care about Arcann, because from where I’m sitting, I don’t see how his skill with blocking lightning is going to help him survive against Maul, who never chooses to employ the ability.

1. Arcann’s fighting style is perfectly suited to counter Maul’s, as his ability to chain powerful force attacks in combat combined with his impenetrable defense will serve as a perfect counter to Maul’s aggressive assault, mainly because Arcann has a sizeable power edge over Maul.

Proof?

2. The HoTlander is an unprecedented prodigy with unrivalled force power in Scourge’s eyes, putting his potential on par with or above the likes of Revan, the Dread Masters, and any other force prodigy Scourge came across over the course of 3 centuries, and has feats and lines of scaling that arguably rival or exceed Maul’s to boot.

The former has been addressed, and the latter remains unproven.

3. Arcann in the middle of KOTFE is capable of completely outmaneuvering and overpowering the HoTlander, and is able to block the energies of HoTlanderkorion for an extended period of time and tank the impact of the attack and subsequent fall with no visible injury.

Not that beating the Outlander or surviving Valk’s lightning stream does anything to support your argument.
by The Lost
on May 3rd 2019, 11:42 pm
 
Search in: Finished Suspect Showdowns (SS)
Topic: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)
Replies: 57
Views: 6360

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

Strength

Maul drags a dragon-slug’s tail and uses it to tie the creature into a knot with its own body, as it was trying to kill him.
But the dragon-slug didn't pass. It slithered around the stalagmite, found Maul's concealed position, and opened its maw. Maul knew he would have to defend himself. He ran toward the creature, jumped over its back, and wrapped his arms around the end of its tail. As the dragon-slug twisted to bite his attacker, Maul dragged the dragon-slug's tail toward its stomach and tricked the creature into forming a loop. Before the dragon-slug realized what was happening, Maul pulled the tail around its looped body. The creature was instantly tangled by its own elongated form.

Maul left the writhing dragon-slug to untie itself and advanced through the cave.

―Episode I Adventures 3: The Fury of Darth Maul

Dragon slugs are giant creatures, over 20 meters long, towering over normal humanoids.
https://imgur.com/a/ibu2SV8
―Shadow Stalker

Maul kicks a “mammoth spider”/”giant spider” hard enough to injure it, then, while hanging from a ceiling and with one arm, yanks the spider from its position on the ceiling.
Maul was considering whether to jump the chasm or scale the ceiling when he noticed a mammoth spider clinging to the cavern wall behind him.

The spider had nine long, powerful legs. It appeared to be asleep, with its thick, hair-covered abdomen slowly rising and falling with each breath. Still, Maul kept his eyes on it as he clambered up the chamber wall to the stalactites. Maul gripped a stalactite, then swung to grip another. The conical deposits were moist from dripping mineral water, and Maul was careful not to lose his grip on the slippery formations. He was halfway over the chasm when the giant spider suddenly scurried up the wall and across the vaulted ceiling. It was not sleeping after all. The spider was not even tired. The spider's mouth opened and closed, revealing many rows of sharp teeth. Darth Maul had no doubt the creature wanted him for dinner. He also knew if he let go of the stalactites he would fall into the chasm. As the spider crawled closer, Maul felt his fingers begin to lose their grip. When the spider was within range, Maul swung both of his legs forward and kicked the creature in the head.

The injured spider screeched and sprayed a thick web at Darth Maul. The Sith Lord released his right hand, grabbed the sprayed strand, and gave a sharp pull. The spider did not sever its connection to the web in time and suddenly found itself being torn from the ceiling by Maul's tug.

Maul let go of the strand and watched the spider plummet into the chasm.

―Episode I Adventures 3: The Fury of Darth Maul

Maul dominated a Vong warrior, choking it until its tendons began to give out, with blood streaming from its eyes and mouth, without actively drawing on the Force.
Close enough now that he could smell the corpse-stink pouring off it like rotten meat, he fell into a reflexive series of moves. Both hands shot out and grabbed the creature by its throat, hoisting it up over his head and squeezing until he felt the deep tendons of its neck beginning to give and weaken in his grip. There was a wet, muffled click from somewhere inside the thing’s chest and a sudden glut of warm, thick, sticky fluid began spurting up from its throat.

Blood.

Jet black.

The sight of it gave Maul no satisfaction, only the vaguely annoying realization that it never should have taken him this long to turn the battle to his advantage. Still, ending his opponent’s life quickly would restore a certain necessary balance to the encounter—if not honor, at least vindication. He tightened his grip, and the screaming sound got louder, becoming a broken, birdlike squawk. More blood leapt up, inky black and viscous, and started pouring from its mouth and eye sockets.
Enough.

Executing a perfectly balanced spin, Maul swung the creature around and slammed it to the floor with a sharp clang, connecting hard enough that he felt the steel plates reverberate under his feet. The thing’s head drooped on its broken neck, lolling sideways to expose the throbbing vessels beneath its gray flesh.

―Maul: Lockdown

Maul grew stronger from that fight and others like it.
“Jagannath,” he said. “You’re looking surprisingly well, all things considered.”
Maul said nothing. In the twelve hours since his last fight, he’d recovered almost completely from the wounds that the Wampa had inflicted on him. His face still bore the blood-encrusted slash marks from its claws, but he’d regained full use of his arm, and his strength actually seemed to have intensified in response to the attack, like an organism that had thrived from being pruned down close to the taproot.

―Maul: Lockdown

Maul decapitated a Varactyl in one jerk without actively using the Force.
“A varactyl?”
“Intriguing creatures, have you seen them, brother? Fifteen meters long.” The Chadra-Fan grinned. “You see, it’s a fascinating thing, the way the sinuses in their armor-plated skulls are designed to funnel and amplify sound, to create a certain specific type of noise when the air passes through—”
Maul nodded. “It’s done.”
[...]
“What if—” he began. But that was as far as he got before the hatchway to his immediate right exploded off its hinges.
Strabo leapt back with a cry of surprise. What he saw defied all expectation—an orange-skinned Deathspine varactyl, four meters high, came bursting forth into the concourse, its tail thrashing and whipping the air. The bird-lizard was shrieking and hooting wildly, slamming its body against the far wall, and immediately Strabo understood why. The Zabrak, Jagannath himself, was sitting astride its back, clutching its beaked face with both hands, jerking it right and left.
[...]
Directly in front of him, the bird-lizard bucked and swung itself 180 degrees around, braying all the louder as it tried to throw Jagannath from his perch. Its hind leg came forward, hooking one clawlike foot into the Zabrak’s torso and slashing his skin. But the red-skinned inmate hung on with a kind of brute-force determination that Strabo had never seen before in any species.
[...]
A blur of activity snapped Strabo’s attention forward again. Jagannath had managed to grip the varactyl by its crest and wrenched its armor-plated skull hard to the right, slamming it directly into one of the steam pipes along the far wall.
The creature shrieked again—a wailing mournful cry that turned out to be its swan song. The steam pipe burst apart, shooting a thick, scalding blast of focused heat directly into the thing’s face, boiling its flesh and scalding its eyeballs in their sockets. The effect was immediate. Strabo’s nostrils stung with the stench of burned feathers and flash-fried skin as the varactyl’s flesh peeled back to expose the thickly plated vault of its cranium. Its body collapsed with the Zabrak still astride it.
[...]
In front of him, Jagannath had taken hold of the varactyl’s boiled skull. With a final jerk, he snapped it completely free from its neck and yanked it upward. The scorched gray rag of the thing’s tongue tumbled free and dangled from its mandible like a limp rag of surrender.
Silence fell through the hallway. Dismounting, the Zabrak hoisted its massive skull up over his head, the inmates and even some of the guards taking a step back as he carried the grisly trophy forward down the length of the concourse.

―Maul: Lockdown

Varactyls are 15 meters long, weighing 1150 kilograms, with armor-plated skulls. The force needed to rip the skull off of a human being is extremely superhuman, so doing so to a varactyl without Force enhancement denotes freakish strength.
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Maul shatters Mighella’s lightsaber-proof sword.
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Maul destroys durasteel droids with his body as lethally as with his lightsaber.
Just arrived on the Hunters' Moon, Sidious studied Plagueis as the Sith Lord and his droid, 11-4D, viewed a holorecording of a black-robed Zabrak assassin making short work of combat automata in his home on Coruscant, some hovering, some advancing on two legs, others on treads, and all firing blasters.
[...]
Plagueis spent a long moment observing the holorecording. The Zabrak's fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding.

―Darth Plagueis

Over a vast distance, Maul threw a spear with such power it killed a clone trooper before Obi-Wan could react.
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Maul effortlessly deflected Savage Opress’ blows.
https://imgur.com/HIAo1nv
Savage’s saber howled as he flung himself at his brother in a brutal attack. The assault would have ended with most opponents cut in two and lying on the deck in lifeless halves. But Darth Maul was not most opponents. He parried Savage’s slash effortlessly, their red saber blades sparking and chattering where they came in contact with each other. Then Maul twitched his wrists and spun Savage’s saber out of his hands. A moment later Savage was lying on the deck, pinned by Maul’s metal foot.

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Savage has thrown Dooku through the air with a strike , and has thrown Obi-Wan and Anakin around like ragdolls. He performed these feats before his fight with Maul, at a time where Dooku could feel Savage’s strength growing daily.
“I can sense him, Grievous.

That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes…

―Count Dooku (The Clone Wars)

Maul and Savage together were able to strain Sheev by pressing their blades down on his.
Maul stared up at his Master’s face. He saw the strain as Sidious called upon the Force to keep the brothers at bay. But there was something else there too – a terrible pleasure. Sidious began to grin.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Yoda, Sheev’s peer, casually carries a giant artillery gun from village to village. Yoda shows no strain doing this. If Maul provided even 20-40% of the strength needed to strain a Yoda-tier being it means he is packing literally tons of strength.
https://imgur.com/a/T34LRCi

Speed

Maul travels through Lommite Limited’s headquarters, avoiding security patrols, skylights and motion detection lasers, with such speed any trace of him caught on a security camera would need to be put in slow motion in order to even see him.
Maul waited until the moon was low in the sky before he went to Lommite Limited's headquarters at the base of the escarpment. The incidents of sabotage had caused the complex of buildings to be placed on high alert. Armed sentries, some accompanied by leashed beasts, patrolled, and powerful illuminators cast circles of brilliant light over the spacious grounds. A five-meter-high electrified stun fence encompassed everything.

Maul spent an hour studying the movements of the sentries, the periodic sweeps of the illuminators, the towering fence, and the motion detector lasers that gridded the broad lawn beyond.
[...]
When he was satisfied that he had committed the results of his reconnaissance to memory, he shrugged out of his cloak and leapt straight up over the fence, landing precisely where some of the rocks he had tossed rested. Then he sprang to a series of other sites that ultimately carried him to the wall of the principal building, moving with such speed the entire time that whatever holorecordings were being made wouldn't show him unless they were played in slow motion.

He reached one of the doors and found it locked, so he began to work his way around the building, testing other doors and windows, all of which were similarly secured.

―Darth Maul: Saboteur

Maul moves faster than a droid’s photoreceptor can follow.
The droid soared toward the ceiling but regained control before impact and flew back toward the Sith. Maul leaped aside, moving faster than the droid's photoreceptor could follow.

―Episode I Adventures 3: The Fury of Darth Maul

Telekinesis

Maul at 15 could have loosed a Force scream that would “bring the [Orsis] barracks down around him.”
Merely imagining it set his fingers trembling, and abruptly the tool slipped from its tenuous hold in the socket and stabbed deeply into the palm of his opposite hand, opening a small wound and bursting the dam of his pent-up emotion. Maul’s clenched right hand slammed down on the table, shattering its surface, and the vibroblade took flight, nearly impaling itself in his head. Straightening, he bared his filed teeth and tensed his body, close to loosing a scream that would have brought the barracks down around him.

―Restraint

The barracks has 500 students along with staff. The students have high-grade accommodation, they share rooms of two, the barracks have stations for mechanical work, and the instructor’s quarters has a fireplace - a huge facility.
"Right now." Trezza said, "we have just over five hundred cadets
[...]
Maul opened the door and stepped into the office. Trezza was seated behind his massive desk. Kilindi stood before him. And Meltch Krakko stood on the far side of the room, near an open fireplace.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul
He was picking up the pieces of his short-lived fit—collecting the knife and the far-flung tools—when two of his fellow trainees entered the barracks.

The taller and older of the pair, Kilindi Matako, scanned the room, taking in the dismantled vibroblade, the table’s crazed top, and the fresh blood dripping from Maul’s punctured left hand.

―Restraint

Maul notes that “most of the [500] cadets would already be asleep in the barracks,” and he goes from room to room killing them, which suggests he isn’t going from building to building - the barracks is one large building.
He moved quickly and quietly through the courtyards and buildings. First, he killed the Academy's sentries, and then the security guards posted outside the training rooms and barracks. He used the Force when it was most efficient, and his bare hands whenever it pleased him. Knowing that most of the cadets would already be asleep in the barracks, he went noiselessly from one darkened room to the next, leaving a trail of death.

He entered the room shared by Kilindi and Daleen. Kilindi's bunk was empty. Daleen's wasn't. Daleen was snoring lightly. A moment later, her life had ended, and Maul was moving out the door. He took no comfort from Kilindi's absence. He knew he would find her.

When he arrived upon the sleeping forms of the Rodians Hubnutz and Fretch, he woke them before he broke their necks.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

After the "Gora", a week-long survival challenge he completed just after the barracks feat, “He felt he was one with the dark side of the Force.”
Night had long fallen by the time be reached the Academy's perimeter, and he felt very different from the cadet he had been when he left to begin the Gora. Now, his education seemed ages behind him. He felt he was one with the dark side of the Force.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

Over two years, Maul’s power in the Force grew - he sensed his control over his Force powers were “close to perfect."
Maul moved with Sidious to Coruscant, where Sidious had long kept a secret lair in a skyscraper in an industrial area. Maul spent the next two years carrying out a series of secret missions for his Master. The missions were conceived to help Sidious gain power without others ever knowing of his existence. By the end of those two years, Maul had repeatedly proven that he was as strong as he was fast, and that he would never break. He also sensed that his control of the darkness that fueled the Force was close to perfect.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul
So it is not my age that tells my Master I am ready, but my abilities. I know I am strong and fast and I never break. My control of the darkness that fuels the Force is close to perfect.

―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

There is already a power gap between Orsis!Maul and 17yo!Maul.

Refer to the next section for the gap between 17yo!Maul and TPM Maul.

Refer to TCW Maul section of post #1 for the gap between TPM and TCW Maul.

Maul drags a large shuttle across the ground and off of a cliff.
https://imgur.com/a/O1bUhna
Maul and Savage found themselves surrounded by laser blasts flying in from all angles. The pirates were firing for all they were worth, eager to brag about the day they’d taken down two Sith. Maul and Savage spun their lightsabers in continuous arcs, deflecting bolts in all directions. But there were too many pirates, too many blasters. They couldn’t possibly block them all. A bolt got through Maul’s defenses, crumpling one of his mechanical legs.

Maul growled, then reached desperately out in the Force, turning his fury into a command. The Jedi shuttle tumbled off the ridge with a groan, crashing down on the landing pad and scattering the pirates.

—Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Focus is needed for TK, and Maul’s focus was split between deflecting omnidirectional blaster fire, running and dealing with an amputated leg. Maul’s connection to this leg went beyond mere prosthesis, because 1. Maul howls in pain when he is shot, and 2. In Death Sentence, Maul is stabbed in his alchemical lower abdomen, is noted as being injured and eventually collapses.

Yes, Sith can turn pain into power, but with all of these mitigating factors, Maul was not close to his peak.

Maul tears down a tunnel after being stabbed.
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Maul breaks through a combat-ready Obi-Wan’s defences and dominates him with TK several times.
“Savage howled in agony, retreating toward Maul as his brother shoved Obi-Wan backward with a blast of Force power.”

—Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=281
https://imgur.com/a/qi5Ne

Strength, Speed + TK - Scaling

Plagueis + Venamis in 67BBY:

The droid 11-4D can track the trajectories of blaster bolts and respond instantaneously to danger, yet, it viewed Plagueis’ movements as a blur or gust of wind.
The face-off tableau in the cabinspace had endured for only a moment when Wandau, who had served as a bodyguard for a celebrated Hutt, leapt into action, drawing and firing his blaster even as he raced for cover behind one of the bulkheads. A split second behind, Maa Kaap raised his weapon and fired a continuous hail of blaster bolts at the Muun. In the same instant Zuto and PePe, crouched low to the deck, sprang forward in an attempt to outflank their opponent and place him at the center of a deadly crossfire.

From the passageway that led to the cockpit came the rapid footfalls of the pilot, Blir', and the ship's Dresselian navigator, Semasalli. 11-4D knew that they had been monitoring cam feeds of the cargo bay, and thought it likely that they had witnessed whatever sentence the Muun had levied on Captain Lah.

The Muun's reaction to the barrage of bolts that converged on him required almost more processing power than the droid had at its disposal. By employing a combination of body movements, lightsaber, and naked right hand, the agile sentient evaded, deflected, or returned every shot that targeted him. Slowly surrendering energy, the bolts caromed from the deck and bulkheads, touching off alarms, prompting a switch to emergency illumination, and unleashing cascades of fire-suppressant foam from the ceiling aerosols. No sooner had the Balosar and the Dresselian entered the cabinspace than hatches sealed the corridors, preventing any escape from the melee. Only 11-4D's ability to calculate trajectories and react instantaneously to danger kept it from being on the receiving end of any of the numerous ricochets.

―Darth Plagueis
The woebegone had just reverted to realspace when 11-4D’s audio sensors registered unusual sounds from aft: an activation click, a prolonged hiss of energy, a dopplering slash, a stuttering exhalation of breath. The sounds were followed by a sudden outpouring of heat from the corridor that accessed the cargo bays and what might have been interpreted as a gust of wind. Only by adjusting the input rate of its photoreceptors was the droid able to identify the blur that raced into the cabin space as a male Muun dressed in a hooded robe, trousers, and softboots that reached his shins.

―Darth Plagueis

Plagueis and Venamis’ fight would have appeared like lightning flashing through a forest, in other words, as if they were rapidly teleporting despite the rough obstacle-ridden terrain.
The contest took them backward and forward through the trees, across narrow streams, and up onto piles of rocks that were the ruins of an ancient sentry post. Plagueis took a moment to wonder if anyone at the fort was observing the results of the contest, which, from afar, must have looked like lightning flashing through the forest's understory.

―Darth Plagueis

Plagueis smashes transparisteel.
When he tried springing the hatch, however, he found that it wouldn’t budge. He was ultimately able to gain entry to the cockpit by assailing the transparisteel canopy with a series of Force blows.

―Darth Plagueis

With a kick Plagueis sends a Zabrak across a cabin snapping his spine and crushing his chest.
The Muun caught the lightsaber, but instead of bringing it to bear against Maa Kaap, he danced and twirled out of reach of the vibroblade and commenced parrying the Zabrak's martial kicks and punches, a side-kick to the thorax drove Maa Kaap clear across the cabin and slamming into the bulkhead. OneOne-FourDee’s audio pickups registered the snap of the Zabrak’s spine and the bursting of pulmonary arteries.d

―Darth Plagueis
He remained by the Quara’s side for a few moments, then moved quickly to Maa Kaap, from whose crushed chest cavity blood bubbled with each shallow breath.

―Darth Plagueis

The gap between Plagueis + Tenebrous in 67BBY:

Plagueis had to call deeply on his reserves to keep up with Tenebrous, conceded he could not defeat him, Venamis thought it impossible Plagueis could defeat him, Tenebrous did not train Plagueis properly and viewed him as pitiful.
Nearly knocked over by the swiftness of Tenebrous's departure, Plagueis had to call deeply on the Force merely to keep up.

―Darth Plagueis
His success in bringing the ceiling down on Tenebrous was proof enough that the Bith had grown sluggish and expendable. Otherwise, he would have divined the true source of the danger he had sensed, and Plagueis would be the one pressed to the floor of the grotto, head cracked open like an egg and chest cavity pierced by the pointed end of a fallen stalactite.

―Darth Plagueis
Darth Venamis likewise concluded it impossible for someone of Plagueis’ caliber to defeat Tenebrous in battle.

“I knew I could draw you out, Darth Plagueis,” the Bith said.

Plagueis dropped all pretence and faced him squarely. “You’re well trained. I sensed the Force in you, but not the dark side.”

“I’ve Darth Tenebrous to thank for it.”

“He made you in his image. You’re a product of Bith science.”

The Bith laughed harshly. “You’re an old fool. He found and trained me.”

Plagueis recalled the warning Tenebrous had nearly given voice to before he died. “He took you as an apprentice?”

“I am Darth Venamis.”

“Darth?” Plagueis said with disgust. “We’ll see about that.”

“Your death will legitimize the title, Plagueis.”

Plagueis cocked his head to the side. “Your Master left orders for you to kill me?”

The Bith nodded. “Even now he awaits my return.”

“Awaits...” Plagueis said. As astonishing as it was to learn that Tenebrous had trained a second apprentice, he had a surprise in store for Venamis. Inhaling, he said, “Tenebrous is dead.”

Confusion showed in Venamis’s eyes. “You wish it were so.”

Plagueis held his lightsaber off to one side, parallel to the ground. “What’s more, he died by my hand.”

“Impossible.”

―Darth Plagueis
Tenebrous was by far the most powerful Force-user whose death Plagueis had the opportunity to observe, and he had known all along that his apprentice would apply all his physical, mental, and Force capabilities - pitiful as they might be - to witness each slightest detail.

―The Tenebrous Way
Instead of actually training his doltish apprentice, Tenebrous had flattered Plagueis' mysticism while pricking his insecurities, sending him off on one useless, doomed-to-fail mission after another.
[...]
Hmm - perhaps he should have invested some time in actually training the foolish Muun.

―The Tenebrous Way

52BBY Sheev + Plagueis:

For 600 years leading up to 54BBY, the Banite Sith undertook the Kursid rite of having the Sith Master and apprentice non-lethally defeat hundreds of Kursid warriors with force pikes. The Kursids evolved marginally in terms of tech over the years. Each repetition of this rite would become marginally more impressive.

A Banite Master and apprentice 600 years before 54BBY Plagueis can onetap hundreds without being hit. Sheev and Plagueis also did this.
The location of the planet known to the Sith as Kursid had been expunged from the Republic records in distant times, and for the past six hundred years had been reserved for use as a place of spectacle. Masters and apprentices of the Bane lineage had visited with enough regularity that a cult had come into being in that part of the world based on the periodic return of the sky visitors. The Sith hadn't bothered to investigate what Kursid's indigenous humanoids thought about the visits—whether in their belief systems the Sith were regarded as the equivalent of deities or demons—since it was unlikely that the primitives had yet so much as named their world. However, visiting as apprentice and—more often than not—as Master, each Sith Lord had remarked on the slow advancement of Kursid's civilization. How, on the early visits, the primitives had defended themselves with wooden war clubs and smooth rocks hurled from slings. Two hundred years later, many of the small settlements had grown to become cities or ceremonial centers built of a crude sort, and magical guardian symbols had been emblazoned on the sloping sides of defensive walls. At some point previous to Darth Tenebrous's visit as an apprentice, replicas of the Sith ships had been constructed in the center of the arid plateau that served as a battleground, and enormous totemic figures—visible only from above—had been outlined by removing tens of thousands of fists-sized volcanic stones that covered the ground. On Plagueis's first visit, some fifty years earlier, the warriors he and Tenebrous had faced had been armed with longbows and metal-tipped lances.

That the Sith had never demanded anything other than battle hadn't kept the primitives from attempting to adopt a policy of appeasement, leaving at the ships' perpetual landing site foodstuffs, sacrificial victims, and works of what they considered art, forged of materials they held precious or sacred. But the Sith had simply ignored the offerings, waiting instead on the stony plain for the primitives to deploy their warriors, as the primitives did now with Plagueis and Sidious waiting. Announcing their arrival with low runs over the city, they had set the ship down and waited for six days, while the mournful calls of breath-driven horns had disturbed the dry silences, and groups of primitives had flocked in to gather on the hillsides that overlooked the battleground.

"Do you recall what Darth Bane said regarding the killing of innocents?" Plagueis had asked.

"Our mission," Sidious paraphrased, "is not to bring death on all those unfit to live. All we do must serve our true purpose—the preservation of our Order and the survival of the Sith. We must work to grow our power, and to accomplish that we will need to interact with individuals of many species across many worlds. Eventually word of our existence will reach the ears of the Jedi."

To refrain from senseless killing, they wielded force pikes rather than lightsabers. Meter-long melee weapons used by the Echani and carried by the Senate Guard, the pikes were equipped with stun-module tips capable of delivering a shock that could overwhelm the nervous systems of most sentients, without causing permanent damage.

"The next few hours will test the limits of your agility, speed, and accuracy," Plagueis said, as several hundred of the biggest, bravest, and most skilled warriors—their bodies daubed in pigments derived from plants, clay, and soil—began to separate themselves from the crowds. "But this is more than some simple exercise in our rise to ultimate power, and therefore servants of the dark side of the Force. Centuries from now, advanced by the Sith, they might confront us with projectile weapons or energy beams. But then we will have evolved, as well, perhaps past the need for this rite, and we will come instead to honor rather than engage them in battle. Through power we gain victory, and through victory our chains are broken. But power is only a means to an end."

To the clamorous beating of drums and the wailing of the onlookers, the warriors brandished their weapons, raised a deafening war cry, and attacked. A nod from Plagueis, and the two Sith sped across the plain to meet them, flying among them like wraiths, evading arrows, gleaming spear tips, and blows from battle-axes, going one against one, two, or three, but felling opponent after opponent with taps from the force pikes, until among the hundreds of jerking, twitching bodies sprawled on the rough ground, only one was left standing. That was when Plagueis tossed aside the stun pike and ignited his crimson blade, and a collective lament rose from the crowds on the hillsides.

―Darth Plagueis

Plagueis and Sheev took turns orbiting and defending eachother as they deflected omnidirectional blaster fire from a series of concentric rings of droids numbering 200. The droids were of a wide variety of models, boasting a wide variety of blaster types.
On Hypori they were the prey, standing back-to-back in their black zeyd-cloth hooded robes at the center of concentric rings of droids, retrofitted by Baktoid Armor to function as combat automata. Two hundred programmed assailants—bipedal, treaded, some levitated by antigrav generators—armed with a variety of weapons, ranging from hand blasters to short-barreled burst-rifles. Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal. Made for delicate, long-fingered hands—as much a work of art as a weapon—the lightsaber thrummed as he waved the blade from side to side in front of him.

"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."

Plagueis put his words into action as the first ring of droids began to converge on them, staggering the attack and triggering bursts at random. Orbiting Sidious, the Muun's blade warded off every volley, returning the bolts to their sources, or deflecting them into the facades of the faux buildings surrounding them or into other droids. At other times Plagueis made no attempt to redirect the attacks, but simply torqued his rangy body, allowing the bolts to miss him by centimeters. Around the two Sith, the automata collapsed one after the next, gushing lubricants from holed reservoirs or exploding in a hail of alloy parts, until all were heaped on the ferrocrete floor.

"The next ring is yours," Plagueis said.

Rugged, uninhabited Hypori belonged to the Techno Union, whose Skakoan foreman, Wat Tambor, owed his seat in the Republic Senate to Damask Holdings. In exchange, the bionic humanoid had made Hypori available as a training ground for members of the Echani Sun Guard and provided the necessary battle droids. Calling in another favor, Hego Damask had requested a private session in the fabricated cityscape, so that Plagueis and his apprentice could be free to employ lightsabers—though only for the purpose of deflecting bolts rather than dismemberment or penetration.

When it came Sidious's turn to demonstrate his skill, Plagueis spoke continuously from behind him, adding distraction to the distinct possibility of inadvertent disintegration.

"A being trained in the killing arts doesn't wait for you to acquire him as a target, or establish him or herself as an opponent, as if in some martial arts contest. Your reactions must be instantaneous and nothing less than lethal, for you are a Sith Lord, and will be marked for death."

The droids continued to converge, ring after ring of them, until the floor was piled high with smoking husks. Plagueis issued a voice command that brought the onslaught to an abrupt end and deactivated his lightsaber. The pinging of cooling weapons, the hiss of escaping gas, the unsteady whir of failing servomotors punctuated the sudden silence. Alloy limbs spasmed and photoreceptors winked out, surrendering their eerie glow. The recycled air was rotten with the smell of fried circuitry.

―Darth Plagueis

While half-dead, Plagueis snaps necks, smashes skulls and put his fists through armoured torsos.
The closest of the assassins swung to him with raised vibroblades and rushed forward, only to be flung backward off the canted stage and against the room’s curved walls. Others Plagueis felled with his hands by snapping necks and putting his fists through armored torsos…

…In blinding motion his hands and feet smashed skulls and wind-pipes.

―Darth Plagueis

Sheev only a few years prior to the two above exercises was even allowed to use a lightsaber, meanwhile, Plagueis was a Banite with over a human lifetime’s worth of experience. Sheev muses Plagueis’ powers were beyond his understanding:
Plagueis hadn't allowed his young apprentice to wield a lightsaber until a few years earlier, but Sidious was brandishing one now, self-constructed of phrik alloy and aurodium, and powered by a synthetic crystal.

―Darth Plagueis
Palpatine hadn't been attempting to flatter Plagueis when he had called him wise-not entirely, at any rate. The Muun was powerful beyond Palpatine’s present understanding.

―Darth Plagueis

Sheev and Plagueis between 54BBY and 32BBY grew dramatically.

Sheev’s power increased tenfold between 52BBY and 32BBY. This is in large part due to his intense study of the Sith archives and his training of Maul - as noted training an apprentice promotes growth, and Sheev trained Maul for 20 years.
During the long period between the Gran's sneak attack and the first Gathering of the new era, Sidious had spoken with Plagueis only by holo. Left to progress on his own, he had trained the Zabrak in secret on Mustafar, Tosste, and Orsis, visited several Sith worlds, and spent considerable time studying the Sith texts and holocrons that remained under guard on Aborah.
[...]
Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn't be certain he had learned all of Plagueis's secrets-"his sorcerer's ways," as the Sun Guards referred to them-including the ability to prevent beings from dying. He sometimes wondered: Was he a level behind? Two levels behind? Such questions were precisely what had driven generations of Sith apprentices ultimately to challenge their Masters.

―Darth Plagueis

Plagueis studied the Force sleeplessly for 12 years in order to “wrest a few last secrets from the Force”, delving into the “deepest strata of the Force” (Midichlorians), eventually achieving such feats as destroying the Light Side bubble the Jedi had propagated for nearly a millennium, and also tipping the balance of the Force towards the Dark Side to such an extreme degree it clouded the precognitive abilities of the Jedi Order, being able to revive the dead, to heal any injury, master any known Force power through an act of will and become youthful (functionally immortal). Plagueis then became “drunk on newfound power” and sought to do the “unthinkable” and create a Forceful being (this being around the time Anakin was miraculously conceived). Then over the course of eight years he continued his intense study of Midichlorians, and increased his own midichlorian count.
Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side. Determined never again to be caught off guard, he had trained himself to go without sleep, and had devoted two standard decades to day-and-night experimentation with midi-chlorian manipulation and attempts to wrest a few last secrets from the Force, so that he-and presumably his human apprentice-might live forever. His inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death.

―Darth Plagueis
In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians.

―Darth Plagueis
Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn't owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It's an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The shift had been the outcome of months of intense meditation, during which Plagueis and Sidious had sought to challenge the Force for sovereignty and suffuse the galaxy with the power of the dark side. Brazen and shameless, and at their own mortal peril, they had waged etheric war, anticipating that their own midi-chlorians, the Force's proxy army, might marshal to boil their blood or stop the beating of their hearts. Risen out of themselves, discorporate and as a single entity, they had brought the power of their will to bear, asserting their sovereignty over the Force. No counterforce had risen against them. In what amounted to a state of rapture they knew that the Force had yielded, as if some deity had been tipped from its throne. On the fulcrum they had fashioned, the light side had dipped and the dark side had ascended.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D's processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith's organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn't been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

Drunk on newfound power, then, he had attempted an even more unthinkable act: to bring into being a creation of his own. Not merely the impregnation of some hapless, mindless creature, but the birth of a Forceful being. The ability to dominate death had been a step in the right direction, but it wasn't equivalent to pure creation. And so he had stretched out-indeed, as if invisible, transubstantiated-to inform every being of his existence, and impact all of them: Muunoid or insectoid, secure or dispossessed, free or enslaved. A warrior waving a banner in triumph on a battlefield. A ghost infiltrating a dream.

But ultimately to no end.

The Force grew silent, as if in flight from him, and many of the animals in his laboratory succumbed to horrifying diseases.

Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

But he had yet to inform Sidious of this.

It was more important that Sidious remain as focused on manipulating events in the profane world as Plagueis was intent on dominating the realm of the Force, of which the mundane was only a gross and distorted reflection.

To be sure, the light had been extinguished, but for how long and at what cost?

He recalled a stellar eclipse he had witnessed on a long-forgotten world, whose single moon was of perfect size and distance to blot out the light of the system's primary. The result hadn't been total darkness but illumination of a different sort, singular and diffuse, that had confused the birds and had permitted the stars to be seen in what would have been broad daylight. Even totally blocked, the primary had shone from behind the satellite's disk, and when the moon moved on there had been a moment of light almost too intense to bear.

Gazing into Sojourn's darkening sky, he wondered what calamity the Force was planning in retreat to visit upon him or Sidious or both of them for willfully tipping the balance. Was retribution merely waiting in the wings as it had been on Coruscant twenty years earlier? It was a dangerous time; more dangerous than his earliest years as an apprentice when the dark side might have consumed him at any moment.

For now, at least, his full convalescence was near complete. Sidious was continuing to become more powerful as a Sith and as a politician, his most intricate schemes meeting with little or no resistance. And the Jedi Order was foundering...

Time would tell, and time was short.

―Darth Plagueis

To make it abundantly clear the gap between 52BBY and 32BBY Plagueis, look at how he was “just beginning to learn how to persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax [Midichlorians] into action”, but could only muse over the possibility of one day conquering life and death, or producing a Forceful being, as he did in roughly 42BBY.
As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death-foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years-the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms. That they had never provided the Order with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their influence had been negligible, and had long since faded from the world.

In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians. Plagueis was finally learning to do that, and was just beginning to learn how to persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax them into action. Already he could command them to promote healing, and now he had been successful in enticing them to lower their defenses. If he could compel a murderous Yinchorri to become peaceful, could he-with a mere suggestion-accomplish the opposite by turning a peaceful being into a murderer? Would he one day be able to influence the leaders of worlds and systems to act according to his designs, however iniquitous? Would he one day conquer not only death but life, as well, by manipulating midi-chlorians to produce Forceful beings, even in the absence of fertilization, as Darth Tenebrous might have attempted to do with gene-splicing techniques and computers?

Perhaps.

―Darth Plagueis

In 67BBY it’s outright stated Plagueis “had honed the ability to perceive the actions of midi-chlorians, though not yet the ability to manipulate them.”
Tenebrous was paralyzed and unconscious but not yet dead. Plagueis had no interest in saving him—even if it were possible—but he was interested in observing the behavior of the Bith’s midi-chlorians as life ebbed. The Jedi thought of the cellular organelles as symbionts, but to Plagueis midi-chlorians were interlopers, running interference for the Force and standing in the way of a being’s ability to contact the Force directly. Through years of experimentation and directed meditation, Plagueis had honed an ability to perceive the actions of midi-chlorians, though not yet the ability to manipulate them.

―Darth Plagueis

Plagueis noticed a significant amplification of his powers after killing Tenebrous, but he also noted at the time his midichlorian count had not increased.
Awake in the oppressive heat, he replayed the events of the previous day, still somewhat astounded by what he had done. The Force had whispered to him: Your moment has come. Claim your stake to the dark side. Act now and be done with this. But the Force had only advised; it had neither dictated his actions nor guided his hands. That had been his doing alone. He knew from his travels with and without Tenebrous that he wasn't the galaxy's sole practitioner of the dark side-nor Sith for that matter, since the galaxy was rife with pretenders-but he was now the only Sith Lord descended from the Bane line. A true Sith, and that realization roused the raw power coiled inside him.

―Darth Plagueis
With 11-4D deep in processing mode, Plagueis withdrew a vial of his own blood and subjected it to analysis. Despite the recent amplification of his powers he sensed that his midi-chlorian count had not increased since the events on Bal'demnic, and the analysis of the blood sample confirmed his suspicions.

―Darth Plagueis

Contrast this with actually increasing his midichlorian count amongst all of the other developments he made with midichlorian manipulation.
Regardless, eight long years later, Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.

―Darth Plagueis

And you will see how far more powerful Plagueis was in 32BBY than he was in 54BBY, let alone 54BBY Sheev.

There should also be a big gap between their roughly 42BBY selves and 52BBY, because it was a decade prior to TPM they carried out their meditation against the Force. Certainly by the time of the Force meditation, both Plagueis and Sheev have surpassed Tenebrous.

Maul at the age of 17 in 37BBY, nearly killed Sheev. After 2 weeks of training more intense than anything he had ever done, leaving him exhausted, he was then given the "real test", stranded on Hypori to be hunted by a fleet of assassin droids for a month with limited supplies. He starved, lost muscle and was shot in the leg. The wound festered untreated and became infected, then Maul passed out in a state of hallucinating exhaustion.

Sheev finds him then goads him into a lightsaber duel, telling him he was being replaced and he was to be killed. Maul experiences an unparalleled rage which nearly consumed him, and focused it using "reserves of strength I did not know I had", he believed he could "do anything". He employed "strategy" and "flawless footwork" into an assault that "nearly bested his master", blows Sheev "barely deflected." It was only because Maul’s Force reserves expired prematurely, due to his fatigue and injury, that his assault ended.
Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all the while being hunted by hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test-which, by failing to kill Sidious in the duel, he just had.

Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Hurling himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all. Eventually Maul spent his fury, and Darth Sidious still stood. Maul prepared himself for death-but Sidious only laughed. By giving in to his rage and hatred to kill his own master-by wanting to kill his own master-Maul had in fact passed the final test. Now he was a Sith Lord-Darth Maul, Dark Lord of the Sith.

―Dark Side Sourcebook
For fourteen days, I take a series of physical tests. Lightsaber duels, endurance exercises, fasting. Some tests I take blindfolded or in a sensory-deprivation suit. It is the most grueling fourteen days I can imagine. By the time it ends, I am exhausted.

And I find that the test has not yet begun.

"I am sending you to a planet in the Outer Rim, " my Master tells me. "It is made up of three kinds of terrain: desert, swamp, and mountains. You will have at least three matches on each terrain. I have sent a fleet of assassin droids to attack you. Each are programmed with different strategies. Some will work together, some will work alone. They are all programmed to kill. "

That gets my attention.

"That is correct, " Lord Sidious says quietly. "I am prepared to lose what I most value. So must you be to become a Sith. You must be prepared to lose your own life in order to win. "

I nod. "I understand, my Master. "

"You will have to survive for a month, " Lord Sidious adds. "You will have only a survival pack. "

Despite my exhaustion, I am exhilarated, too. Did I ever imagine it would be easy to become a Sith Lord? The value of anything is measured by effort. I will prove to my Master that I am the best apprentice in the history of the Sith. I shall not only survive, I shall conquer.

I realize now how young I was. I couldn't have known what was ahead of me.

I land on the planet and begin my test. It is infinitely more difficult than my imagination has been able to grasp. The assassin droids are relentless. Again and again I am awakened by an attack. Again and again I fight, move camp, fight again. I am driven into the mountain snows and across the burning desert. I lose my survival pack in a battle and have to kill and forage for food.

Ten days go by. Fifteen. Twenty.

I grow thin and my strength begins to ebb. I have never felt such weakness, even during my fasts. And yet I have to go on. I have to fight, I have to find a place to rest, I have to fight again. I count off the days in my head.

One battle with two assassin droids almost undoes me. I sustain a bad blaster wound to my thigh. I drag myself to a cave to hide. I have no bacta, no bandages. Yet I know I must recover before I fight again.

The wound festers. It is a searing, blinding pain. I am too weak to forage for food. The days blur. I no longer know how long I've been on the planet. Surely it has been more than a month. Has my Master forgotten about me?

I am close to hallucinating when Lord Sidious appears at the mouth of the cave. I am so glad to see him that my bones turn to water. I look at him hopefully.

"Now it is time for your final battle, " he says.

Another battle? I can't even walk.

Yet his power over me is so strong that I rise on my watery legs. The cave walls shimmer in front of my eyes. My balance is off. I fumble for my lightsaber and activate it.

"Where is the assassin droid, Master?" I ask. My voice emerges hoarsely from thick, swollen lips. I need water. I would kill for water.

My Master powers up his lightsaber. "I will be your opponent. "

I take a step toward him. I know this is my final test. I summon up the dark side of the Force. I take all my pain and anger and form it into a tightly packed ball. I set that ball aflame in my chest.

I feel a trickle of strength enter me. That encourages me. I use that strength to stoke the fire inside me.

"You cannot be as pathetic as you look, " my Master says. He raises his lightsaber and attacks.

I parry the blow and reverse, come at him from the opposite side. But he is already gone by the time I am able to make my attack. The lunge throws off my balance. I weave, the cave walls blurring. He laughs.

"I take it back, " he says. "You are that pathetic. "

He tells me I am weak, not worthy of being a Sith Lord. He tells me he has misjudged me. I attempt to attack him. The ball of anger inside me turns to howling rage. It is painfully obvious that he is playing with me. He can kill me in a heartbeat. Yet something in me will not accept this, even from my Master. My life force won't allow it. I struggle on, even in the face of his laughter.

He tells me that he has expected my failure. He saw my weaknesses long ago. Secretly, over the long years, he has trained another apprentice. I have not been alone.

I point out, gasping, that more than one apprentice is against the rules of the Sith.

"You are right, " he says. "A spark of intelligence at last. "

The second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He did not sustain more than a flesh wound. He is healthy and strong.

"Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me, " my Master says.

I realize dully what this means. My opponents had not really been the droids. My opponent had been someone I had never seen. My enemy has been chosen by my Master. He will become a Sith Lord. He will receive the honor I was due. He will reap the glory I had punished my body and disciplined my mind in order to receive.

A slow rage begins to burn through me. It is a terrible anger, no less fierce because it starts as a kernel of disbelief and then builds. I have never felt anything like it. I know it can consume me.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master.

Yes, my Master is now my enemy. He is my betrayer. Hatred sears me, hardens me.

"Can you make the next leap in logic?" Lord Sidious asks me contemptuously. "Try to focus, Maul. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die. Maul?"

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.

With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.

He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.

I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.

"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes, " I grunt.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.

But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

I will not be able to deflect the next blow.

―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul
by The Lost
on April 21st 2019, 3:04 pm
 
Search in: Finished Suspect Showdowns (SS)
Topic: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Maul (ILS)

Maul’s Modus Operandi

Maul is the ultimate Sith Warrior, a killing machine. He “prefers to overwhelm his targets with rapid, agile attacks”, to close down on his opponents in contrast to Dooku who prefers to keep them at bay with Lightning and footwork. He enters a “trance-like state” that allows him to focus solely on lightsaber combat, and with his “utter devotion to Form VII’s physical focus” he tends to desire a “purely physical victory.”
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The Dark Side sourcebook summarises what it means to be a Sith Warrior - the “living embodiment of rage and savagery”.
The Sith warrior combines combat mastery with the power of the dark side to create a living embodiment of rage and savagery. Physical conditioning and punishing discipline make the Sith warrior into a formidable opponent, and facility with the powers of the dark side add a wicked barb to an otherwise deadly weapon. The Sith warrior is dedicated to the conquest and subjugation of any obstacle to the Sith tradition. Throughout history, a single Sith warrior has usually been more than a match for most Jedi.
[...]
The way of the Sith warrior is a constant, unforgiving test of will and ability, honing each into a blade fearsome enough to cut through the heart of the hated Jedi Order. Every Sith warrior dreams of being the one who will destroy this ancient enemy of the Sith.
Where other Sith focus on plots and deceptions, the Sith warrior devotes himself to the art of violence.
[...]
The first Sith warrior identified as such is Darth Maul. By the time he is discovered, he has already made the transition to Sith Lord.

―The Dark Side Sourcebook

Maul is a devoted Juyo Master. The Jedi describe Form VII as giving yourself over to emotion, being swept up in the thrill of the fight. Mace Windu adds that his variation of Form VII is a state of mind that “leads through the penumbra of the Dark Side”, but in Maul’s case he is not merely being lead through the penumbra - he gives himself over to the dark side utterly, using the “Sith style” to enter a “trance-like state”, letting him “experience transcendance. In that moment, you are a perfect being and you cannot be beaten-you are at last embraced within Juyo.”
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From the opening bell, Maul is going to be on Arcann like flies on a pile of s**t. He’s going to swarm him relentlessly until he is dead. Given Arcann’s own propensity as a warrior (see his fights with the Outlander, Vaylin, the KOTFE trailer, and so on), he is likely to meet him head-on, playing to Maul’s greatest strength from the onset.

The Banite Sith

The Banite Sith, culminating with Sidious, had the most advanced understanding of all aspects of the Force of any Force-using tradition in history, rivalling and in many ways surpassing the Jedi Order itself.
The Sith spent a thousand years evolving by studying all aspects of the Force, remaking themselves, whereas the Jedi spent a thousand years training to refight the last war against the Sith.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

―Revenge of the Sith

Each Banite Sith passed along their knowledge and was more powerful than the last, in spite of any setbacks.
"Never again would there be more than two Sith Lords at one time, but members of the order continued expanding their dark powers without the knowledge of the Jedi, waiting for the opportunity to seize control of the galaxy."

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #1
"As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."

―Episode 1: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook
"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with each generation."

―Force and Destiny

This is due to the fact that “many of the most important elements of Sith training” and “real knowledge” is passed from master to apprentice in unrecorded training sessions, opposed to learning from holocrons and other materials.
Sadly he could glean only so much from the texts, crystals, and holocrons stored in the library. Crucial knowledge had been lost during the brief mastery of Darth Gravid, and many of the most important elements of Sith training since had been passed from Masters to apprentices in sessions that had been left unrecorded.

―Darth Plagueis
Sidious remained silent for a long moment. "Am I to be equally distrustful of the lessons contained in Sith Holocrons?"

"Not distrustful," Plagueis said gravely. "But holocrons contain knowledge specific and idiosyncratic to each Sith who constructed them. Real knowledge is passed by Master to apprentice in sessions such as this, where nothing is codified or recorded-diluted-and thus it cannot be forgotten. There will come a time when you may wish to consult the holocrons of past Masters, but until then you would do better not to be influenced by them. You must discover the dark side in your own way, and perfect your power in your own fashion.

―Darth Plagueis

Sidious came to possess all of Plagueis’ secrets before he killed him, including the Sith Archives on Aborah.
The tour began in the outermost rooms, which were appointed with furnishings and objects of art of the highest quality, gathered from all sectors of the galaxy. But Plagueis was neither as acquisitive as a Neimoidian nor as ostentatious as a Hutt; and so the ornamented chambers quickly gave way to data-gathering rooms crowded with audio-vid receivers and HoloNet projectors; and then to galleries filled to overflowing with ancient documents and tomes, recorded on media ranging from tree trunk parchment through flimsiplast to storage crystal and holocron. The Muuns were said to abhor literature and to loathe keeping records of anything other than loan notices, actuarial tables, and legal writs, and yet Plagueis was guardian of the one of the finest libraries to be found anywhere outside Obroa-skai or the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. Here, neatly arranged and cataloged and stored in climate-controlled cases, was a collection of treatises and commentaries accumulated over centuries by the Sith and their often unwitting agents. Ancient histories of the Rakata and the Vjun; texts devoted to the Followers of Palawa, the Chatos Academy, and the Order of Dai Bendu; archives that had once belonged to House Malreaux; annals of the Sorcerers of Tund and of Queen Amanoa of Onderon; biological studies of the ysalimiri and vornskrs of Myrkr, and of the taozin of Va’art. Certain long-lived species, like the Wookiees, Hutts, Falleen, and Toydarians, were afforded galleries of their own.

Deeper in the mountain were laboratories where Plagueis’s real work took place. Confined to cages, stasis fields, bioreactors, and bacta tanks were life-forms brought to Muunilinst from across the galaxy—many from the galaxy’s most remote worlds. Some were creatures of instinct, and others were semisentient. Some were immediately recognizable to 11-4D; others resembled creatures concocted from borrowed parts. Some were newly birthed or hatched, and some looked as if they were being kept at death’s door. More than a few were the subjects of ongoing experiments in what seemed to be vivisection or interbreeding, and others were clearly in suspended animation. OneOne-FourDee noted that many of the animals wore remotes that linked them to biometric monitoring machines, while others were in the direct care of specialist droids. Elsewhere in the hollow of the mountain were sealed enclosures warmed by artificial light, aswirl with mixtures of rarefied gases and luxuriant with flora. And deeper still were test centers crammed with complex machines and glass-fronted cooling units devoted to the storage of chemical compounds, alkaloids derived from both plants and animals, blood and tissue samples, and bodily organs from a host of species.

Plagueis instructed 11-4D to wander about the galleries and laboratories on his own, and then report back to him.

Hours later the droid returned to say: “I recognize that you are involved in research related to species durability and hybridization. But I must confess to being unfamiliar with many of the examples of fauna and flora you have amassed, and few of the arcane documents in your library. Is the data available for upload?”

“Some portion of it,” Plagueis said. “The remainder will have to be scanned.”

“Then the task will require standard years, Magister.”

“I’m aware of that. While there is some urgency, we are in no rush.”

“I understand, sir. Is there specific data you wish me to assimilate first?”

From the breast pocket of his cloak, Plagueis withdrew a storage crystal. “Start with this. It is a history of the Sith.”

―Darth Plagueis
Exiting the turbolift, the first thing to catch Sidious’s eye was the library: rack after rack of texts, scrolls, disks, and holocrons—all the data he had been craving since his apprenticeship began. He ran his hands lovingly over the shelves but barely had time to revel in his excitement when 11-4D ushered him onto a descending ramp that led into what might have been a state-of-the-art medical research facility.

―Darth Plagueis
Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time.

―Darth Plagueis
Atop a pedestal alongside the chair sat the holocrons Sidious had asked his apprentice to search out and retrieve from the Jedi archives room. Pyramidal in shape, as opposed to the geodesic Jedi version, the holocrons were repositories of recorded knowledge, accessible only to those who were highly evolved in the use of the Force. Arcane writing inscribed on the holocrons Vader had fetched told Sidious that they had been recorded by Sith during the era of Darth Bane, some one thousand standard years earlier. Sidious didn't have to imagine the content of the devices, because his own Master, Darth Plagueis, had once allowed him access to the actual holocrons. The ones stored in the Temple archives room were nothing more than clever forgeries—Sith disinformation of a sort.

―Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
Chancellor Palpatine spent many years studying ancient Holocrons to learn the secrets of the Sith.

―The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded
“The Bith—Venamis...”
“Dispatched by Tenebrous to test me—to eliminate me had I failed. But Venamis has been a gift; essential in helping me unlock some of the deepest secrets of the Force. Every creature you have glimpsed or sensed here has been a similar blessing, as you will see when I lead you into the mysteries.”

―Darth Plagueis
"Unfortunately, he taught his apprentice everything he knew, then his apprentice killed him in his sleep."

―Chancellor Palpatine, Revenge of the Sith
“My mentor taught me everything about the Force, even the nature of the dark side.”

―Chancellor Palpatine, Revenge of the Sith
Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him.

―Insider #88: Heritage of the Sith

Jedi Dooku

Now let’s look at Jedi Dooku. As of Y:DR, Yoda regards him as “the strongest, wisest and most learned in the ways of the Force”, “the Order’s most gifted apprentice”. He had an understanding of the Force far beyond his peers, would have been a master on par with Yoda had he stayed, and was revered as one of the greatest legends and losses of the Order.
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our greatest student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then dropped. "Our greatest failure."

―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.

―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
The belief that he was better than the other students only seemed to gain further validation when Dooku demonstrated an understanding of the Force far beyond that of his peers.

―Insider #113
Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.

―Insider #113
One of the greatest legends of the Jedi Order, and one of its greatest losses, Dooku was a revered Jedi Master until he abandoned his commission, disillusioned with the direction of both the Jedi and the Republic they served.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Mace Windu and Yoda were the most powerful Jedi Masters to have ever walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple. They were considered to be on equal terms with Dooku as a duelist. Dooku was able to match Windu with a lightsaber, and was reckoned to be second only to Yoda.
Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.

―Star Wars Fact File 11
Yoda took a keen interest in the young Dooku. He assisted in Dooku's combat training and as a result, the Padawan became especially proficient with a lightsaber. Only Masters Yoda and Mace Windu were considered to be on equal terms with him.

―Insider #109
Only Mace himself ever mastered it, and it was reckoned that only Master Yoda and Dooku were ever able to match Windu with a lightsaber.

―The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #25
Dooku had been reckoned one of the foremost duellists in the Jedi Order, second only to Master Yoda.

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #60

Dooku was one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - only eclipsed by Yoda and Windu in all of history.
Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

―The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48
Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.

―The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48

In the history of the Jedi Order, only Yoda and Dooku had ever overcame Windu in battle.
Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

―Power of the Jedi Sourcebook

In other words, in the history of the Jedi Order, Yoda and Mace Windu were the most powerful Masters and the greatest duelists ever circa TPM, and Dooku was regarded as their peer, overcame Windu in duels, and his skill was only eclipsed by them in all of Jedi history - making Dooku the 3rd greatest Jedi in history. Remembering what Yoda had to say about Dooku (that he was the strongest, wisest and most learned student of the Jedi Order), the margins between 1st, 2nd and 3rd must be relatively small.

If you want to question the veracity of the “Fact” Files, read this starwars.com article… nowhere is the idea that the “Fact” Files contain “Facts” and “Information” (“facts provided or learned about something or someone.”) contradicted. Even if the information presented in Fact Files are derived from “in-universe sources”, that does not mean the information itself is not factual. Fact Files do not alter, invent or embellish.
https://www.starwars.com/news/the-official-star-wars-fact-files-return-to-our-galaxy

Darth Tyranus

Now that we understand how knowledgeable Dooku was of the Force, understand that Sidious’ Sith training “introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies”, honed, enhanced and made him more powerful in the Force, and made him a greater Sith Lord than he was a Jedi Master.
Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself.

―Revenge of the Sith novelization
"Powerful you have become, Dooku. The dark side I sense in you."

―Attack of the Clones
He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count's increased ability.

―Attack of the Clones Junior Novelization
"I have spent the last ten years learning to use the power of the Dark Side. It gives me infinitely greater power."

―http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones.html
Count Dooku is a disillusioned former Jedi Knight who lost faith in the Republic and abandoned the Jedi Order. Dooku spent ten years in seclusion honing his Force abilities - and - as a master of the old style of fencing - wields his scimitar-handled lightsaber with consummate grace.

―Count Dooku - Dark Lord (Star Wars SAGA Series, 2002)
This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno:

Once a great Jedi master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.

―Revenge of the Sith
Not even Dooku's Sith-enhanced powers were enough for him to defeat Yoda.

―http://www.starwars.com/count-dooku-biography-gallery

Sidious’ training also, specifically, increased Dooku’s skill as a duelist.
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―The Official Figurine Collection
His prowess was both exceptional and deadly, and many regarded him as one of the greatest warriors in the history of the Jedi Order. However, once Dooku left the Jedi Order to become an apprentice to the Sith Lord Darth Sidious, his skills became even more formidable.

―The Official Star Wars Fact File #68
For ten long years, Count Dooku lived in hiding, honing his Jedi skills and crafting his vision of the galaxy's future.

―Unleashed Collectibles

Dooku was eclipsed by Windu in TPM, but as of Y:DR (shortly before RotS), Yoda believed that “perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal”, and his decided inferior on Vjun’s dark side nexus.
The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light.

―Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Despite Mace being Dooku’s junior by 3 decades, being the greater natural prodigy of the two, and his (slight) superiority circa TPM, Dooku’s training at the age of 70 allowed him to offset both the initial gap between him and Mace, and, Mace’s own growth since TPM and through TCW - Yoda did not know if Mace was even his equal. All of that despite Dooku having trained tirelessly for a standard human lifetime as a Jedi under Yoda himself… at which point he surely would have met diminishing returns on any further power increases he sought.

Darth Sidious

How good of a duelist is Sidious? An ambidextrous master of all lightsaber forms, a master of every weapon and style in the universe, a practitioner of exotic and forbidden martial arts (including Echani which Plagueis’ Sun Guards were masters of). Sidious’ unique fighting style is “constantly changing”, “one in which you will never get the better of him”, “ambiguous”, “shrouded”, guided by a philosophy that seeks “to use everything you had available” to win.
Sidious can appear frail and slow, but the Sith Lord should not be underestimated - he is a master of all forms of lightsaber combat.

―The Clone Wars Episode Guide
"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."

―Nick Gillard, the prequel stunt coordinator
"I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side."

―Darth Sidious, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force
"Every weapon, manufactured by whatever species, has its own properties and peculiarities," Plagueis was saying, his own blade angled toward the ferrocrete floor of the battledome's fabricated cityscape, as if to light a fuse. "Range, penetrating power, refresh rate... In some instances your life might depend on your ability to focus on the weapon rather than the wielder. You must train yourself to identify a weapon instantly—whether it's a product of BlasTech or Merr-Sonn, Tenloss or Prax—so that you will know where to position yourself, and the several ways to best deflect a well-aimed bolt."

―Darth Plagueis
Grievous wasn't the only villain given his own unique lightsaber method. For Episode III Gillard also was tasked with designing an impressive style for a character fans saw fight only briefly (via Force lightning) in Return of the Jedi -- the Emperor.

―The Official Star Wars Website
"It took a really long time for Nick (Gillard) to work out Sidious' fighting style, and he has a style that's constantly changing. His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."

―Nikki Gooley, the prequel makeup supervisor
"His character is so shrouded that his fighting style should be shrouded as well. The Emperor is deadly dangerous."

―Nick Gillard
"I think we've got time for a few more exercises," Skywalker decided, turning back to face her. "That technique of yours is very interesting - Obi-Wan never taught me anything about using the tip of the lightsaber blade."

"The Emperor's philosophy was to use everything you had available," Mara said.

―The Last Command

Darth Sidious was a tier 9 lightsaber duelist on Nick Gillard’s scale which he devised to rank the Prequel Trilogy duelists. At a ranking so high fights were determined by minutiae like fighting style differences and environmental circumstances… Sheev is “in a way” better than Yoda (another tier 9) because he uses the dark side, and is capable of besting “even the greatest Jedi warrior in lightsaber combat” (Yoda).
Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

―The Official Star Wars Website
In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.

―The Official Star Wars Website
"He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side.”

―Nick Gillard
Outwardly frail, Palpatine was in truth a cunning warrior capable of besting even the greatest Jedi warrior in lightsaber combat or by conjuring powerfully destructive Force lightning.

―Star Wars 101: Servants of the Dark Side

Sidious’ abilities are beyond anything we’ve experienced per Gillard, which would include Yoda and Dooku’s fight in AotC. Between the tiers there are Richter scale-esque differences in competency, and even within the tiers themselves there is a “huge difference” - on this point, Gillard outright states that placement within a tier is not based on “how well they fight”, but “how well they learned.”
"Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced."

―Nick Gillard
"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."

―Nick Gillard
"Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned."

―Nick Gillard


TPM Darth Maul

So now that we know how advanced the Banite Sith’s training methods are, and how advanced Sidious’ training methods are - that is to say, unrivalled by anything else in all of galactic history by a country mile - just how thoroughly, with how much devotion did Sidious choose to train Maul from his infancy? “How well did Maul learn?”

Maul has innumerable scars from duels with Sheev where the latter was willing to kill Maul if “he couldn’t stand against his master in a mere training exercise”.
Maul had fought his Master many times, starting when he was little more than a child and continuing through his apprenticeship. His body bore innumerable scars from those duels—lessons in the peril of being too slow or two quick, too weak or too distracted. During Maul’s apprenticeship he had always known that Sidious had been willing to kill him. The Sith had not survived their centuries of exile by being sentimental, and a student who couldn’t stand against his Master in a mere training exercise was worse than useless—he was a waste of valuable resources better used elsewhere. But Maul had never faced his Master when he was actually trying to kill him.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
“As a Sith apprentice, Maul trained against many foes, from combat droids and savage beasts to the toughest adversary of all―Darth Sidious himself.”

―The Clone Wars Campaign Guide

Maul was trained as “a blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the heart of the Jedi Order”, “a perfect Sith weapon”. To Plagueis he was “excellent”, “fearsome”, with “astounding” speed, his body as “lethal as his lightsaber”.
"Where Darth Sidious was a strategist, his fearsome apprentice Darth Maul was a blazing lightsaber aimed directly at the heart of the Jedi Order. A Zabrak born on the world of lridonia, the child who would one day be known as Darth Maul was taken offworld and indoctrinated into the ways of the Dark Side, trained by Darth Sidious in not only Sith lore, but in the Jedi arts. Any display of fear on his part was punished with vicious retribution. Any hint of mercy in his character was rewarded with severe cruelty. One those rare occasions when he relaxed his guard, his master nearly killed him to remind him that a Sith can never afford a moment of rest. After years of this kind of treatment, Darth Maul was absolutely ruthless - a perfect Sith weapon. By the time he reached adolescence, Darth Maul was already a hardened, remorseless killer."

―The Dark Side Sourcebook
"You have made him fearsome," Plagueis remarked without turning from the recording, as the athletic Zabrak cleaved a Colicoid Eradicator droid down the middle and whirled to cut two others in half. The yellow-eyed humanoid's hairless head bore a crown of small horns and geometrical patterns of black and red markings.

"Fearless, as well," Sidious said.
[...]
Plagueis spent a long moment observing the holorecording. The Zabrak's fists and legs were as lethal as his lightsaber, and his speed was astounding.

―Darth Plagueis
“He is a prideful one, the Zabrak, is he not? As excellent as he is in combat, it must be incredibly difficult for him to show restraint in not using the Force.”

―Darth Plagueis (Maul: Lockdown)

Sheev has stated, three times, that Maul’s skill as a warrior is unmatched.
"Thus far your apprenticeship has been impeccable. You have never wavered in your intent, and you have executed your tasks flawlessly. Your skill as a sword master is peerless."

―Darth Sidious (Darth Maul: Saboteur)
Alone in his secret chambers, Darth Sidious meditated on this latest set of circumstances.
In many ways Darth Maul was an exemplary acolyte. His loyalty was unquestionable and unshakable; Sidious knew that, if he were to command it, Maul would sacrifice his life without a second’s hesitation. And his skills as a warrior were nonpareil.

―Darth Sidious (Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter)
“The battle began in the hangar. Darth Maul activated his double-ended lightsaber, a weapon he fashioned himself under my supervision. In his hands this weapon was flawless - or so I thought.”

―Darth Sidious (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul)

He trained him to be “invincible”, with a lightsaber that is “part of” him no different than a limb.
“This will be your weapon, Lord Maul. In order to serve me well, you must be invincible." Pointing to the hologram, he continued, "You must build the lightsaber yourself so that you know it intimately. It will be fitted for your hand, balanced for your stroke. You shall train with it until it is a part of you.”

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

His entire existence consisted of combat training so that he could be the best possible tool of Sheev’s will.
Maul’s entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction. Early in his life, before his voice had deepened, Maul had learned the intricate movements and forms of the teräs käsi fighting style, the patterns of movements based on the hunting characteristics of various beasts throughout the galaxy: Charging Wampa, Rancor Rising, Dancing Dragonsnake, and many more. He had practiced gymnastics in environments ranging from zero-g to gravity fields twice that of Coruscant’s. He had mastered the intricate and dangerous use of the double-bladed lightsaber. And all for one purpose: to be the best possible tool of his master’s will.

―Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Maul performs “ten thousand” attacks “a hundred times a day”. His lightsaber is an extension of his arm. He trains this obsessively, yet he already knows the movements so well he can fight without thought and has not made a single mistake in years.
When I complete my basic exercises, I power up my double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers. My body is as strong as durasteel and as fluid as water. I shift from one position of attack to another. I fall on one knee and slash my lightsaber as I imagine cleaving my victim cleanly. I roll away and grip my lightsaber with both hands for a vertical sweep. I leap and twist and come down, leading with my left shoulder. I deliver a death blow and leap away, somersaulting in the air. I perform ten thousand slashes, lunges, attacks.

My lightsaber is no longer a separate weapon, but part of my arm. I move in the time it would take my opponent to blink. I move in the time he would take to raise his weapon. He would only see the space where I had been. He would feel the sudden shock of the blow that would knock him to the floor.

I do these maneuvers a hundred times a day. I do them even though my body knows them intimately, even though I have not made a mistake or a misstep in years. I do them until the memory of the movement is part of the muscle itself. The goal of the Sith is to fight without thought.

―Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

Maul was trained mercilessly in all forms of the Sith arts, a master of all things foul, pushing his Force abilities to the extreme. He focused all his skills and energy on being the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order.
"A deadly combatant and powerful Sith Lord, Maul spent his entire life in servitude to the dark side of the Force. Taken from his home at a very early age by Darth Sidious, Maul was trained mercilessly in all forms of the Sith arts, becoming the living embodiment of evil."

―Star Wars: Fandex Deluxe Edition
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Per Dave Filoni, who was the main authority behind Maul’s return in TCW (working within Lucas’ framework), Maul is “well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways”, and is trained “in his likeness”.
“Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.”

―Dave Filoni, Director of The Clone Wars
“The root of that though is that if he is a good apprentice to Sidious, Sidious would train him in his likeness really, and teach him what he knows. The Sith by their nature can’t be so overt. He is a deadly weapon because George needed him to be that in Phantom Menace, but he didn’t have the time to get more into who he is.”

―Dave Filoni, Director of The Clone Wars

Sidious trained Maul to “become strong in every way”.
"While you might think that your life is harsh and unpleasant, and that I am sometimes cruel, there is a reason for you to endure such pain. The reason is that you must become strong in every way. You must learn to overcome pain. Someday, you might become stronger than I. You'd like that, wouldn't you? To be stronger than I?"

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

He is proof that the Sith are back and “deadlier than ever”
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He is a weapon forged to ensure victory over the Jedi, pure evil with no personality beyond his devotion to Sheev. His singular goal was to defeat the Jedi.
A weapon forged by the hateful energies of the dark side to ensure the victory of the Sith over the Jedi Order. A creature of pure evil, Maul had no personality beyond his ultimate devotion to his master, Darth Sidious. His goal was singular-to exact revenge upon the Jedi for the decimation of the Sith ranks.

No one knows how Darth Sidious came across his young and deadly apprentice. He was raised from a young age to be a weapon, tempered by harsh, abusive training to become an incredible warrior.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Maul was “an almost unstoppable weapon”, trained to “become stronger, faster and smarter than any adversary could anticipate.” His endurance was trained to its very limits.
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I’ll reiterate here that “many of the most important elements of Sith training” and “real knowledge” is passed from master to apprentice in unrecorded training sessions, opposed to learning from holocrons and other materials.

In training Maul, Sheev followed the Banite tradition, and when Maul took Savage as his apprentice, he temporarily became a rival and broke the Rule of Two.
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TCW Darth Maul

After being cut in half, Maul lived in destitute isolation on the junk world Lotho Minor, where for twelve years he focused a singular hatred for Obi-Wan Kenobi so powerful that it let him defy death and sustain his broken body. This anger drove him to insanity and increased his power.
“My hatred kept my spirit intact even though my body was not. Yet I was lost and became a rabid animal, and such is how you found me, brother, discarded.”

―Darth Maul (The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 22: Revenge)
“You may have forgotten me, but I will never forget you. You cannot imagine the depths I would go to, to stay alive, fueled by my singular hatred of you.”

―Darth Maul To Obi-Wan Kenobi (The Clone Wars Season 4 Episode 22: Revenge)
Maul should have died that day, but his rage and hatred had allowed him to fight back against fate, to summon the Force and survive. He had fallen, but he had lived. Somehow he had survived, making way across the Outer Rim to the junk piles of Lotho Minor. There he had dwelled amid trash and madness remembering only that he’d been ruined and cheated.

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy
Though Maul was horribly maimed in his battle with Kenobi, his unquenchable rage allowed him to survive, even as he was driven half-mad by pain and fury.

―Darth Maul: Death Sentence
In the years following his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the rage that sustained Maul’s body also consumed his sanity.

―The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters
“I still don’t understand how that Sith Lord could even be alive… you cut him in half, Master Kenobi -- not to mention he fell down a reactor shaft.”

“Yes, Tatsu. Only one consumed by the Dark Side of the Force would cling to life so tenaciously. The Sith crave life above all else, Padawan… they wish to control it, dominate it, and thus cling to it with every fiber of their being. I believe Maul’s rage was so powerful, and his knowledge of the Dark Side so great, he simply refused to die…”

―Tatsu & Obi-Wan Kenobi (The Clone Wars: The Sith Hunters)
"Hatred is a hard thing to kill. Darth Maul is a being consumed by hatred. I imagine this hatred -- this rage -- fueled him and kept him alive... and somewhere, somehow, that rage grew. As hard as it is to comprehend, padawan, coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger... and even more dangerous.”

―Jedi Master Salmara (Darth Maul: Death Sentence)

Between season 4 and season 5 of TCW, Savage Opress noted a significant increase in Maul’s power, attributed to his renewed purpose and vision.
“You have grown so powerful.”

―Savage Opress (The Clone Wars: Season 5 Episode 1: Revival) & (Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy)
Savage was right. Maul’s power was growing, because he had a purpose again, and a vision.

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Obi-Wan notes that Maul is “stronger with the Force than he’d been” and “colder and more determined” than in TPM.
“Obi-Wan didn’t know where the Sith had spent the long years since he’d tumbled down the shaft of the Theed generator core, and he couldn’t imagine what Maul had been doing. But whatever it was, Maul was stronger with the Force than he’d been - stronger, but also colder and more determined.”

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Enduring Lotho Minor, training on Umbara, being restored (mentally and physically) by Talzin and training Savage all strengthened Maul, making him a more worthy vessel for the dark side.
Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Umbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

―Darth Maul Shadow Conspiracy

Maul’s training, understanding, depth of knowledge, skill, effectiveness - use any adjective you like - with the Force, as a lightsaber duelist, a martial artist and as an overall fighter is beyond Arcann. He is better in every way.
by Master Azronger
on April 20th 2019, 3:16 am
 
Search in: Archives: Star Wars Versus
Topic: The Tyrannical Ten: Preliminary Opinions
Replies: 22
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The Tyrannical Ten: Preliminary Opinions

This thread is to talk about people's preliminary opinions on the characters featured in The Tyrannical Ten tournament. However, it'd be appreciated if you would refrain from debating them extensively before the tournament has concluded. The characters are as follows:

  • Darth Caedus
  • Darth Vader (ROTJ)
  • Kyp Durron
  • Darth Tenebrous
  • Exar Kun
  • Revan (KOTOR)
  • Darth Krayt (Legacy #1)
  • Darth Tyranus
  • Darth Maul
  • Arcann

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