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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)

II. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS DARTH KRAYT

Newsflash: Performing Jedi exercises and drills, is not the same as using your Lightsaber in combat…

It doesn’t have to be for it to have the same benefits, because newsflash: Force users improve by doing drills. Or would you argue with a straight face Darth Maul was just naturally  redonkulously skilled with the saberstaff when he first laid his hands on one in 37 BBY and regressed for five years until TPM because he kept doing drills instead of fighting other lightsaber-wielding opponents?

When I complete my basic exercises, I power up my double-bladed lightsaber and practice maneuvers. My body is as strong as durasteel and as fluid as water. I shift from one position of attack to another. I fall on one knee and slash my lightsaber as I imagine cleaving my victim cleanly. I roll away and grip my lightsaber with both hands for a vertical sweep. I leap and twist and come down, leading with my left shoulder. I deliver a death blow and leap away, somersaulting in the air. I perform ten thousand slashes, lunges, attacks.

My lightsaber is no longer a separate weapon, but part of my arm. I move in the time it would take my opponent to blink. I move in the time he would take to raise his weapon. He would only see the space where I had been. He would feel the sudden shock of the blow that would knock him to the floor. I do these maneuvers a hundred times a day. I do them even though my body knows them intimately, even though I have not made a mistake or a misstep in years. I do them until the memory of the movement is part of the muscle itself. The goal of the Sith is to fight without thought.

And… no source has been provided for this, so there is no way for me to know if you’re bullshitting or not. To quote your very own words in your CaV with Ant: “You’ve failed at the simplest, most fundamental facet of empirical debating: presenting evidence for your claims.”

An explicit statement doesn’t have to be provided for every claim. It’s called inductive reasoning. Hett went to Tatooine soon after Order 66 was issued, and lived there as the chieftain of the Tuskens until his match with Kenobi. Who could he possibly have dueled with a lightsaber there, much less frequently enough to keep up his skills?

That was a generalised summary of the statements. I’m not implying anything.

No. Your statement was “I’d also like to point out that given the fact that Kenobi not having fought in a duel for ages is mentioned alongside a slew of other disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett we can logically infer that it’s intended to be a factor at play.” One of those “disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett” that is listed is ”Hett’s considerable skills with his own weapons.” If it’s an advantage for him, then it must mean you think Hett is more skilled than Kenobi. You can’t back out of this one.

No, it doesn’t lmao. “Fortunate” means “auspicious or favourable” (Source: Google) with “auspicious” meaning “conducive to success” (Source: Google). Conducive means (when postpositive, foll by to) “contributing, leading or tending” (Source Dictionary.com). Then we have “favourable” which means “to the advantage of someone” (Source: Google). All the text is saying, is that Kenobi maintaining his former reflexes was advantageous for him and that it contributed to his success not that it was wholly necessary unlike what you suggest. Ergo, Kenobi being able to defeat Hett at a much lower level and him maintaining his former reflexes being “fortunate” do not conflict, and thus the argument that Kenobi was holding back the whole time is still perfectly viable.

Fair. English is not my native language, so misunderstandings happen from time to time.

I was talking about his reflexes not having slowed. That doesn’t preclude his technical skill from having decreased though.

You mention “former prowess” in a general sense without specifying anything about reflexes exclusively. And had Kenobi’s technical skill decreased, he explicitly wouldn’t have maintained his former prowess.

The feat is impressive but not as good as it seems. Ben was stated to be running faster than any previous Force User when he reached 165m per second, and incredibly weak characters like Traitor Jacen, for example, have been able to outdo this. In New Jedi Order: Traitor Jacen runs 100m in an eyeblink (6). An eye takes roughly a third of a second to blink, meaning in a second Jacen could have run 300m which tops the speed Kenobi was running at. Kenobi was in no way “super amped”. You have almost no proof that Kenobi’s power increased to any significant degree.

This is a red herring.* Jacen Solo is an irrelevant factor here, not to mention you baselessly state he is “incredibly weak” in what I’m guessing is a lame attempt to bait your brother.**

*FALLACY COUNTER: 7
**BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 5

Seeing as you don’t buy Mustafar Vader being above base Anakin, meaning you don’t think Kenobi stalemating him puts him any higher than he was against Dooku, you probably think base Kenobi is still fodder to the Count. So when his power hasn’t “increased to any significant degree,” how is he able to bridge the gap between not only himself and Dooku but also Dooku and Palpatine by running faster than the latter? One moment you’re arguing base Kenobi is gets stomped by Dooku yet your argument here necessitates base Kenobi being relative to Sidious. Which is it? This is a blatant double standard.*

*FALLACY COUNTER: 8

Yes, but it stops Kenobi from launching a serious offensive.

Not really. All he has to eschew is hitting the vitals, which is common enough among Jedi. Doesn’t mean they’re always holding back.

Perhaps, the only credible point you’ve made so far. Credit where credit is due.

CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 1

The difference is Anakin is an entirely different character from Kenobi. He’s constantly afraid and is much more susceptible to shit which is in actuality incredibly unlikely to affect him. Kenobi, on the other hand, has a much more logical and stable mind, and any worries he may have about the battle are more than likely legitimate concerns.

So Hett’s ”considerable skills with his own weapons” was a “legitimate concern”? This is the second time now you’ve admitted Hett’s nearly as if not more skilled than Kenobi.

I wouldn’t say Kenobi’s age was a factor, in all honesty, but merely something that could have come into play like the environment but didn’t end up doing so.

So it is a factor as I defined it. If Kenobi’s age is “a legitimate concern” and “could have come into play like the environment” then things would be exactly like I described in my second post: “In fact, age has never mattered unless the combatants didn’t have excessive Force reserves to draw on or if they were exceedingly close. If we treat this as an actual factor, I can’t see Hett as anything but a near-equal of Kenobi since for the latter’s age to come into play, his Force reserves would have to be depleted, and if Hett can do that he is obviously Kenobi’s peer.” So you’ve basically just conceded Hett must be close to Kenobi. In fact, in your own words, you conceded Kenobi can’t stomp Hett:

In short, while this fight definitely proves Kenobi can’t stomp Hett or anything of that nature.

Your own vague definition of what being on the same tier constitutes is irrelevant. That clause right there is what matters. So, concession accepted.*

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 2

The fact that Kenobi didn’t end up killing Hett, doesn’t preclude him from having tried to in the last few moments of the duel. By this logic, Dooku wasn’t trying to kill Kenobi in ROTS when he threw him across the room, because Kenobi ended up knocked out rather than dead.

False equivalency.* Kenobi was in a position to end Hett’s life and chose not to. Dooku’s clear attempt to kill Kenobi simply failed.

*FALLACY COUNTER: 9

Speed also played into this “stomp,” (Force pushing Hett before he could raise a defence) which is entirely dependent on augmentation. So, no, this victory can be called a “stomp” rather than simply “opportunistic”.

The speed thing is debunked, so all my points about Kenobi’s victory stand.

III. DARTH KRAYT VS KARNESS MUUR

You haven’t proven either decrease was significant. The fact that Krayt was afraid that he would die soon, because his hold over the coral seeds was beginning to weaken doesn’t mean he’d decreased in power. As for his bout with Cade Skywalker, all you’ve proven is that he decreased afterward not that he did so significantly, and by all evidence the decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #2 shouldn’t be significant as I’ll detail below.

I have proved the decreases were significant: Krayt going from RotS Yoda+ to being challenged by Morne-Muur is proof in itself. That’s no different from your attempt to prove the decreases were miniscule: analyses of his showings. An explicit statement doesn’t have to be provided for everything.

Also, you blatantly don’t understand how the coral seeds function. They drain Krayt’s Force connection, and he holds off the infestation with the Force. So the more the infestation spreads, the lesser Krayt’s ability to ward it off becomes, and so he has to devote a bigger portion of his reserves to keep it at bay to prevent it from spreading faster. So not only is his Force power lesser 7 years after Legacy # 1, but his ability to use that power in combat is also lesser.

As you’ve detailed here, during Legacy Krayt and Cade have a fight, where Krayt is hard pressed and forced to go into stasis (10). Throughout the rest of Legacy, and most of Legacy: War Cade does not complete his Jedi training and does very little which would cause any kind of significant increase in power. All evidence of a power increase is absent, and in fact, there is evidence suggesting otherwise with Cade consistently, struggling with Darth Talon (11). Towards the end of Legacy: War, however, he achieves new mastery over the Force and stomps Darth Talon in their final duel (12) before finally engaging with Krayt (13). Krayt upon being reborn increases significantly in power and has now completely healed himself from the coral seeds killing him. The two engage each other, and then the comic cuts away. Krayt and Cade then duel for a significant period of time off screen, while the comic focuses on Antares and the rest of the Imperial Knights. When it cuts back Krayt finishes off Cade with Dark Transfer. Cade holds out against it for an extended period of time (Krayt has a really long speech) despite Krayt using his full power and attempting to kill him. The fact that Cade duels Krayt for an extended period of time, and resists his Dark Transfer for so long indicates he’s comparably powerful to Reborn Krayt. By all available evidence, Cade and Krayt are relative as of Legacy: War and Legacy which means Krayt’s increase in power can be gauged to be around the same as Cade’s. Given that the gap between Legacy #31 Krayt and Reborn Krayt is significantly greater than the gap between Legacy #1 Krayt and Legacy #31 Krayt, we can logically deduce that Cade’s power increase in the last few issues of Legacy is greater than Krayt’s decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #31. Am I to presume, that Cade somehow gaining new mastery over the Force jumped him from sub-Morne+Muur to Yoda tier? It’s highly doubtful, because of the hilarious gaps between the two (see my first post for details), and given that Anakin (despite having far greater potential than Cade and undergoing a similar process) didn’t increase in power nearly that much in ROTS during his transition between the LS and the DS despite having crushed his fears and removed all his mental barriers.

Prove to me Krayt was remotely serious in his last match with Cade. He begins by contemptuously tossing Cade aside with telekinesis and ragdolls his ass around as indicated by the blue trail his hand leaves. He sends a few sparks of lightning Cade’s way which, from what we see, don’t even touch Cade, so there is no way to know how Cade dealt with them. Then the fight goes on off-panel, meaning we have no idea what transpired during that time; your assertion that Cade and Krayt “duel for a significant period of time” is baseless.* All we see is that they are dueling after it; they could have started as soon as Krayt got done with the lightning or only a few seconds before we resume on their duel. It’s impossible to tell. For all we know, Krayt could have been ragdolling him some more.

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 6

Regardless, when we do resume, we see that Krayt hasn’t even drawn his second lightsaber. Why do you expect me to believe he’s going all-out when he doesn’t even bother utilizing his primary fighting style against Cade? And he still beats him in two panels, via speedblitz nonetheless. He’s barely within striking range, yet instantly closes the distance and pins Cade to the ground before the latter can react despite even signalling that the attack was coming with the glow in his hand. Cade literally got Agen Kolar’d. And what’s this about Cade “resisting” dark transfer? Guy looks completely helpless and can’t even hold onto his lightsaber. How do you know Krayt wasn’t simply killing him slowly because he was giving his speech?*

*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7

Cade then has the vision as he dies, and Krayt tells him to revive himself, which he does, and then cheap-shots Krayt.













All in all, I see no evidence Krayt was going all-out or that Cade is anywhere near him. Krayt doesn’t even bother drawing his second blade yet still speedblitzes Cade and thrashes him around with telekinesis. Cade only wins via a cheap-shot. In short, you can’t curtail Vong Krayt as of Legacy # 1 near Vector Krayt because you can’t prove the latter is near Reborn Krayt.

That’s great and all but once again even in combination with Krayt’s decrease, it doesn’t remotely compensate for the hilarious disparity between Yoda and Muur. Celeste is demonstrably comparably powerful to Muur using your logic as he takes over her body several times during the issues of Legacy they appear in (14), and she admits she is losing control over him (15). Hell, we can even use Krayt to prove that Muur is somewhat comparable. Celeste is weaker than a significantly weakened Krayt per your own words yet we know she is comparably powerful to Krayt (per the quote I provided) with Muur’s help, meaning Muur has to bridge the gap between her and Krayt, showing that at the very least there isn’t a gargantuan disparity between him and Morne.

I don’t see the point of this paragraph.

1% is a hilarious exaggeration. Anyway, Krayt not getting fried by Muur’s power doesn’t prove he’s uber powerful and greater than Morne+Muur or whatever, given that the blast was omnidirectional meaning he would have been hit by the barest fraction of the power of the blast. Please quantify the extent of Krayt’s weakness and the amount of power he withstood so we can compare the two. If you can’t we have a completely unquantifiable showing which doesn’t prove anything.

That’s not an omnidirectional attack. Simply because Morne-Muur encased themselves in a lightning cocoon and tossed everyone else briefly aside with telekinesis doesn’t mean the bulk of the attack wasn’t focused on Krayt, which it was. Morne-Muur’s hand gestures, and the fact that they kept on bombarding Krayt even after everyone else, including Azlyn, was out of the picture give it away. Karness Muur after more than doubling his power couldn’t kill a 1% Vong Krayt with his most powerful attack, and Krayt even managed to negate the worst of the lightning as I explained in my second post.

Yes, but the fact that it proposes such a possibility indicates the obvious intent is that Muur is comparably powerful to Krayt. There would be absolutely no reason to hype up Muur as better than Krayt if he’s in actuality far weaker him.

“Yes” - so you concede your original argument? Good.* The rest of the sentence is irrelevant as I was only contesting the idea the quote definitively proves Muur is more powerful than Krayt.

*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 3

Except the quote is literally talking about the events before Cade and the others try to kill Krayt so it can’t be referring to Krayt’s death and Muur threatening to possess Cade: “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”

It’s an advertisement for the whole comic. It can absolutely refer to the ending without overtly alluding to it to avoid spoiling it to the reader. Like, what ”another Sith” would they ”join” prior to Muur threatening to possess Cade?

Chee doesn’t think any quotes are absolute or 100% binding (e.g. quotes from Sourcebooks and the like), yet we still accept them for the purposes of the debate so I don’t see why we shouldn’t hold a Publisher’s Summary to the same standard.

I’ve discussed the merits of what Chee has said with other members in talks unrelated to this debate, and going off of those, I must say this is actually a fair point. I’ll concede it.

Also, it’s irrelevant anyway given Insider states that Muur possessed powers which “outshone” Krayt’s.

That’s irrelevant too. It doesn’t mean Muur was more powerful than Krayt, merely that he ”outshone” everyone else when he blasted Krayt off the cliff: “But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below.” Muur would definitely shine the brightest at the moment of his victory, but since said victory was achieved through a cheap-shot, it doesn’t mean he’s ultimately stronger than Krayt.

CONCLUSION

Now time to address your rather weak rebuttals to my scaling chain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Meanwhile I have provided actual accolades and feats (see the final section of my second post) which prove Dooku has what it takes to win this battle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

You have provided me with nothing to suggest Krayt is comparably powerful to Dooku.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

Your rebuttals to the Kenobi vs Dooku fight were less than adequate,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_disability

and you didn’t even begin to justify how Krayt could possibly be comparable to Yoda when he’s weaker than Muur+Morne as of Legacy #31.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Krayt (Azronger) vs Darth Tyranus (ArkhamAsylum3)

Dooku vs Krayt: The Finale

1) Dooku vs Kenobi

A) Can Dooku ragdoll Kenobi?

Or perhaps my goal was never to refute the feat in the way that it wouldn’t exist, but merely to refute the belief that it proves Dooku is vastly more powerful than Kenobi?

Well, you’ve done a rather poor job at that. There’s a reason why we don’t see characters on the same tier/near equals in power ragdolling each other constantly, and that’s simply because they lack the speed and skill to hit their opponent before they can react. Dooku’s ragdolling of Kenobi, while under unfavorable circumstances, proves he’s far more powerful than Kenobi, as he had to hit Kenobi before he could raise a barrier which requires him to be significantly faster and have better reflexes both of which are directly correlated with Force Power via physical augmentation. In essence, Dooku is more powerful than Kenobi to a significant degree whether Kenobi raised a barrier to deflect his attack or not, which was my premise.

Something that, given your lack of rebuttal to that idea, I appear to have been rather successful at.

Well, given that you didn’t seem to understand the premise of my response, I’m not exactly sure I can call your rebuttal to the feat a success.

Indeed, the only rebuttal of yours is built on a strawman*: that my premise was “given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a good fight against Dooku,” which isn’t stated anywhere in my opener.

That was a generalised summary of your argument, given that I don’t think it is possible for characters on the same power level to be able to stomp each other so I replaced your, “same power level” phrase, with, “given Hett can put up a good fight against Kenobi he can thus put up a good fight against Dooku.” The two are interchangeable in my mind.

What I, in actuality, was arguing for was that Hett’s fight with Kenobi puts him on the same power level as Dooku: Whether he can or cannot put up a good fight against Dooku is irrelevant as his power level is the only thing required for my case to adequately function.

You cited speed and skill feats to put Kenobi on the same power level as Dooku, and then for some reason didn’t take the ragdolling which I complimented as a showing of speed and skill as indicative of power superiority on Dooku’s part, and instead tried to play it off like I hadn’t refuted the feat. Double standards much?

On top of that, your argument is also reliant on a hasty generalization.* You’ve taken Darth Tyranus managing to catch Obi-Wan without active Force barriers on and tossing him aside once, and concluded he will be successful every time.

Well, yes, because he was heavily disadvantaged and was dealing with another incredibly powerful combatant in Anakin. It’s not far fetched to assume that Dooku proving significantly faster and more skilled than Kenobi under such circumstances leaves a wide chasm between them on neutral ground. Just to emphasise how weakened Dooku was, take a look at this (1). The relevant parts are underlined. Dooku is so drained he’s barely sensing his surroundings, and his Force Reserves are all but fully depleted.

It should go without saying that singular instances do not create rules in such circumstantial cases.

I mean, given that all of the circumstances put Dooku at a disadvantage I’d say that this “singular instance” does prove Dooku can ragdoll Kenobi. Moreover, this isn’t even a singular instance. Dooku hits Kenobi with TK early in the fight and sends him flying into a wall which knocks Kenobi out (2).

You say that “If Dooku can hit Kenobi with TK before the latter can react while being hard pressed by Anakin then he most certainly will do so under normal circumstances” but have you considered that Anakin’s presence may actually have been the reason for Obi-Wan’s mishap there? That perhaps he thought Anakin sufficient to distract Tyranus, making an active Force defense a frivolous waste of energy in that moment?

Per the above excerpt that I also posted in my opener, that is exactly what Obi-Wan’s thought process is: “Dooku is focused on Anakin, so he can’t attack me simultaneously, so I’ll just sneak up behind him and we’ll take him down together from different angles.” Alas, he was wrong, and his lack of protection resulted in his incapacitation, but nothing thus far proves Kenobi would get demolished every time Dooku decides to lift a finger.

Kenobi may not be expecting an attack from Dooku when he ran up the stairs to confront The Count, but he should have been more than ready for one by the time Dooku ragdolled him, given that he and Dooku clash blades before the ragdolling (link), and Dooku alters his position to both Kenobi and Skywalker are in front of him. Any thoughts such as the one you posted would have been disregarded by Kenobi the moment he and Dooku clashed blades, as he would have realised he was mistaken in his assumption that The Count was unable to deal with both him and Anakin at the same time, meaning he most certainly wasn’t caught off guard and should have been expecting an attack from Dooku.

B) Kenobi and Skywalker vs Dooku: TCW S6

This duel takes place over five months before Revenge of the Sith (link). No clue why you’re using it as evidence.

Because it’s highly unlikely Kenobi grew that much in 5 months (to the point where he could go from fodder to Dooku to Dooku’s equal) when he’s literally never displayed growth like this before…

C) Kenobi’s speed and skill feats

Kenobi was tired as well (link). You treating this as some sort of unfair disadvantage for the Count while ignoring Kenobi’s situation is a double standard.*

https://youtu.be/qEE2QOlGoB4?t=47

I truly am disappointed Az. Your entire rebuttal is based on a faulty premise and your inability to pay attention to the dialogue in the scene. Dooku’s tiredness is noted before this line in the novelization: “Your moves are clumsy, Kenobi . . . too predictable. You'll have to do better.” In the script, on the other hand, it’s noted that as the duel progresses after the aforementioned dialogue Kenobi and Dooku are tired. In other words, it is impossible to assert when in the duel Kenobi became tired. All we know is that he tired at some point in the duel.

Not attempting to land a killing blow from the onset in no way prevents the Count from going all-out when on the defensive nor does it mean he was holding back with regards to Force augmentation or blade maneuvering at any point.

Dooku’s obviously going to be less inclined to strike at Kenobi’s blinding defence when he has a smaller target to hit which would obviously be the case as he’s trying to avoid killing Kenobi as he can’t aim for the head, heart, etc.

Note: I know this somewhat affects my rebuttal about Dooku trying a strike later, given that he obviously was trying to kill Kenobi later in the exchange, but honestly it shouldn’t be relevant given Dooku was far more depleted by the time of Kenobi’s stonewalling than he was here.

I don’t see why Dooku being surprised and losing his composure (meaning his calmness) would diminish his bladework in any significant fashion.

Dooku being surprised is incredibly relevant. The duo has suddenly massively increased the tempo of their attack, which Dooku was not ready for (as shown in the quote I provided) and now has to adapt to. We’ve seen similar examples of this in AOTC where both Kenobi and Skywalker are able to make Dooku retreat when they upped the intensity of their attack and caught him off guard (3) (in these instances he wasn’t tired either). We know neither is a match for him though, as Skywalker (the superior of the two) (4) is pushed back once Dooku collects himself, and the fight is described as “no contest,” by the script. Unless you want to seriously entertain the notion that AOTC Kenobi is comparable to Dooku, then I see no reason for you to take these passages as an indication ROTS Kenobi is comparable to Dooku.

As for Dooku losing his composure, once again it’s relevant. A scared and surprised Dooku, is obviously going to be less inclined to strike against Kenobi than a calm and collected Dooku.

The text states Kenobi’s velocity was “so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike,” meaning the reason he didn’t strike was because of how fast it was; nothing about his composure is mentioned.

Things don’t have to be explicitly stated for them to have relevance.

And the reason Dooku performed better against Anakin later is because he had replenished his Force reserves: “He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe.”

Lmao. One cannot simply replenish all of their lost reserves at will. For example, not even GM Luke can do that (5) and you think Dooku can…? The quote doesn’t make note of the fact that:

A) Dooku replenished himself fully, which indeed wouldn’t make sense as I’ve just explained.

B) Dooku actually recovered any lost reserves. All it notes is that Dooku gathered his strength and threw Kenobi into a wall with TK...

Moreover, this isn’t even the instance I was referring to. I was talking about their final confrontation, where Skywalker finally gains true mastery over his power and learns to turn his fear and anger into a weapon.

I don’t see how Dooku thinking Kenobi was using Ataru is relevant.

Because if he knew Kenobi were using Soresu he wouldn’t be solely striking at Kenobi’s legs…

And Kenobi has two legs, so they weren’t all aimed at the same point, and Dooku can attack from multiple angles, plus his curved hilt adds even more variety to his thrusts.

Yes, but that doesn’t refute the idea that it’s significantly easier to parry someone’s strikes when they’re not even striking at a large percentage of your body, as you only have to concentrate on defending a certain area.

Kenobi not only negating his precision but his speed entirely, being able to remain stationary and only move his arms is a feat from which it is entirely valid to derive parity between them.

The fact that you ignored over half my rebuttal should speak to how utterly nonsensical this is. You are literally trying to derive parity between Kenobi and Dooku via him blocking a few strikes from Dooku when the latter had just depleted a significant portion of his reserves holding off Skywalker… Even if my first point about Dooku only striking at Kenobi’s legs is adequately addressed in your next response to my post you still haven’t addressed either of these points, so it’s basically impossible for me to take your Dooku~Kenobi arguments remotely seriously.

D) Anakin Skywalker scaling

Now, let’s talk about Anakin Skywalker for a bit.

Yes, let’s.

Once he goes all-out, he beats a fresh Dooku in 12 seconds per the movie, and the novelization basically describes it as a complete stomp.

By this point in the duel, Dooku was utterly exhausted. He had depleted the vast majority of his reserves, holding off Kenobi and Skywalker’s earlier assault, then Skywalker’s attack and finally ragdolling Kenobi while kicking Skywalker. The common rebuttal is this quote which supposedly states Dooku recovered his Force reserves:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

But it doesn’t state that at all… First off, it falls under my earlier rebuttal that even if Dooku did recover lost reserves I doubt it was his full strength, as not even GM Luke can fully recover lost Force Reserves on a whim, and indeed it doesn’t make sense for someone to be able to gain more Force Reserves by using the Force. Secondly, the text makes no mention of Dooku actually recovering any Force Reserves only that he uses the Force to physically augment himself making his age and physical tiredness irrelevant. Overall, given his fight with Yoda, Dooku should do much better than he did here if he has his full reserves to draw upon.

After his fall to the dark side, his power grows even further, leading up to his confrontation against Obi-Wan on Mustafar where he is noted by multiple sources to be better than his Jedi self who is already a Dooku-stomper, and George Lucas’ tier system has Mustafar Vader as a 9, which he only attained by drawing on the dark side, meaning his Dooku-stomping Jedi self is still only an 8.

Seriously…? Dooku stomping Anakin is only an 8...? You have provided no sources which state such. You are correct in asserting that Gillard says that Anakin starts ROTS as an 8 when he’s not embracing his fury and that when he uses the Dark Side he becomes a 9. However, you seem to be ignoring the fact that Anakin was using the Dark Side in his fight with Dooku:

Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury. And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene. "Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question.

[...]

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

All the relevant parts are underlined. Anakin is unleashing his fury and fear and ignoring his Jedi training and restraint. Dooku already described Anakin as half Sith already, when Anakin wasn’t unleashing his full fury so when his full fury was released he should surely be a full on DS user. The fact that the words fear, terror and rage etc are mentioned so many times should paint a clear picture that Anakin is using the Dark Side, meaning by this point he is a 9. Plain and simple.

Obi-Wan Kenobi then emptying himself of all his emotional baggage elevated himself to a level on par Mustafar Vader. So even if you don’t want to accept the Invisible Hand comparison, Kenobi outgrows Dooku immensely by the end of Revenge of the Sith regardless.

Lmao. Mustafar Vader is not superior to Invisible Hand Anakin, despite your insistence that he is. Anakin as of the start of ROTS is incredibly fearful. According to his Jedi teachings, he has to suppress this fear when he is fighting or it will distract him or cause him to hold back. However, when he ignores his teachings and turns his fear into anger he is able to clear his mind and fight to the fullest. Though, in emotionally charged situations Anakin’s anger can feed his fear which consumes his mind. For example on Tatooine and Aargonar, “Smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter” (Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelization) which also happened to him on Mustafar: “The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision” (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide). Basically, Anakin gets overwhelmed by fear and anger, and is unable to utilise his full power against Obi-Wan so him possessing “newfound powers” for example is totally irrelevant. To summarise, Anakin in this state is not stronger than Anakin when he stomped Dooku, (not that the stomp was legitimate in the first place) and thus Kenobi’s performance against Vader on Mustafar is completely useless for the purposes of this debate.

2) Hett vs Kenobi

A) Was Kenobi post-prime?

How does Kenobi not having fought anyone in two years mean his technical skill declined when ”he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine” (newsflash: “Jedi exercises” involves lightsaber practise)?

Newsflash: Performing Jedi exercises and drills, is not the same as using your Lightsaber in combat…

Even were you correct, Hett hadn’t fought anyone either, so you treating it as some sort of unfair disadvantage for Kenobi while ignoring Hett’s situation is a double standard.

And… no source has been provided for this, so there is no way for me to know if you’re bullshitting or not. To quote your very own words in your CaV with Ant: “You’ve failed at the simplest, most fundamental facet of empirical debating: presenting evidence for your claims.”

Also, you describe the list of things going through Kenobi’s head as “disadvantages for him/advantages for Hett,” so seeing as one of the factors listed alongside Ben’s lack of recent combat experience, his age, and Hett’s desert fighting experience is “Hett’s considerable skills with his own weapons,” are you implying Hett was more skilled than Kenobi? I don’t see why else his skill would be an advantage for him and/or a disadvantage for Ben.

That was a generalised summary of the statements. I’m not implying anything.

B) Was Kenobi going all out?

I already explained this in my opener. You’re not refuting anything, just demonstrating you can’t understand the text. But let me help out the confusion: Kenobi retaining his former prowess being “fortunate” implies being on RotS Kenobi’s level is a relevant factor in a fight against Hett. If Obi-Wan could have stomped Hett any time like you argue, him being on par with his RotS self would be unnecessary and irrelevant rather than ”fortunate”; he could still feasibly beat Hett while operating at a much lower level if he could stomp him at full strength. Ergo, the fact that Kenobi retaining his former prowess is a relevant factor indicates he can’t defeat Hett when holding back to the point he could in reality stomp Hett, and therefore we can infer he was going all-out.

No, it doesn’t lmao. “Fortunate” means “auspicious or favourable” (Source: Google) with “auspicious” meaning “conducive to success” (Source: Google). Conducive means (when postpositive, foll by to) “contributing, leading or tending” (Source Dictionary.com). Then we have “favourable” which means “to the advantage of someone” (Source: Google). All the text is saying, is that Kenobi maintaining his former reflexes was advantageous for him and that it contributed to his success not that it was wholly necessary unlike what you suggest. Ergo, Kenobi being able to defeat Hett at a much lower level and him maintaining his former reflexes being “fortunate” do not conflict, and thus the argument that Kenobi was holding back the whole time is still perfectly viable.

And you just said Kenobi’s technical skill decreased, yet your statement “Of course, it’s fortunate Kenobi maintained his former prowess because otherwise he would have been killed due to slow reactions and would have been unable to overpower Hett” implies you believe he is on the level of his RotS self. Which is it?

I was talking about his reflexes not having slowed. That doesn’t preclude his technical skill from having decreased though.

My argument is that Kenobi was already motivated by Luke’s survival throughout the entire fight, not just at the last second. This is affirmed by the novelization where, once he finds out about the Tuskens’ rampage, the very first thing he thinks of is Luke:

In contrast, your argument is essentially Ben going in his head “Oh shit, I just remembered this is the farm where Anakin’s son is living. I better try a bit harder against this guy” as if he hadn’t once thought of the possibility that bloodthirsty Tuskens would kill Luke. Just think for two seconds which stance is more reasonable here.

I never claimed that Ben wasn’t motivated by Luke, throughout the whole fight though. Absolutely nowhere is that stated, in my second post. Once again you’re strawmanning me. My actual argument was that Ben didn’t want to kill Hett and only stopped holding back against Hett because he thought the fight could go on “indefinitely” and wanted it to end to protect Luke and knew that the only way to do so was to cut loose with the restraint.

However, you do raise an interesting point in that “The text specifically attributes Ben knowing he was fighting for Luke as the reason for his victory.” Admittedly I hadn’t considered this before, but Luke is an external motivator here; Obi-Wan didn’t have Luke to spur him on in his duels against Darth Maul, Count Dooku, General Grievous, or Darth Vader. Ergo, if an external motivator is cited as the reason for Obi-Wan’s victory, it can be inferred he was operating at a higher level than usual when he defeated Hett.

Or it could be inferred that he simply cut loose in the final stages of the duel due to Luke being endangered which is what the text supports? It notes that given that Kenobi was holding back the two could keep on fighting “indefinitely” and then goes onto state that Kenobi is motivated by Luke and thus will win the duel. The logical way to interpret this (given Kenobi was motivated by Luke’s survival the entire fight) is that Kenobi’s desire to protect Luke overrode his restraint, he and cut loose hence the fight that could have been indefinite came to a rather conclusive end.

For example, consider the following feat:  When motivated by Luke’s safety, Kenobi is able to run faster than any Force user in history to the point where his atoms are literally coming apart.

The feat is impressive but not as good as it seems. Ben was stated to be running faster than any previous Force User when he reached 165m per second, and incredibly weak characters like Traitor Jacen, for example, have been able to outdo this. In New Jedi Order: Traitor Jacen runs 100m in an eyeblink (6). An eye takes roughly a third of a second to blink, meaning in a second Jacen could have run 300m which tops the speed Kenobi was running at. Kenobi was in no way “super amped”. You have almost no proof that Kenobi’s power increased to any significant degree.

Again, trying not to kill doesn’t prevent him from seriously attempting to block Hett’s attacks.

Yes, but it stops Kenobi from launching a serious offensive.

C) Environmental Factors

The full paragraph reads: “Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.” Per your logic, the reason Hett has more desert fighting experience is that he’s never going to relent, which makes no sense. Two sentences back-to-back doesn’t in itself mean causation, so Hett’s desert fighting experience being the cause of Ben’s struggle to block his strikes isn’t necessarily the case. The sentences are independent statements that collectively reinforce the idea of Kenobi being worried about Hett outlasting him, but there is no causative interrelation between them.

I never said that two sentences back to back means they have to be related. In the quote I posted, we can logically infer that Hett’s experience at fighting in the sand and the desert heat is related to the previous sentence. The passage is describing, how the fight is playing out and then mentions Hett’s greater desert fighting experience. There would be no reason for the passage to note Hett’s desert fighting experience if it had no relevance to the current events in the fight. Especially since just prior to the quote I posted Hett abused his greater desert experience utilising the environment to his advantage: “Hett grunted, but he didn’t go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill.”

Good point: “the sand can be a disadvantage if the opposing fighter is using it effectively against you.” Kenobi presumably knew this, and thus it’s included in the list of things that could potentially be detrimental to him. But given Hett only exploited the environment once, the sand didn’t disturb Kenobi’s dueling at all, and again, “something as trivial as sand beneath their boots isn't going to boost their precognition, augmentation, reflexes or clarity of mind - far more pertinent factors in a lightsaber duel than simple technique or raw skill” - the desert ground probably wasn’t a factor at all in the actual blade-to-blade fencing that took up the majority of the duel.

Perhaps, the only credible point you’ve made so far. Credit where credit is due.

In fact, now that I think about it, the entire fight is from Kenobi’s perspective. Looking at the paragraph again - “It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.” - it reads as if Ben is simply reminding himself not to have any doubts about the fight, not necessarily that these are actual, active factors contributing to it, similar to Anakin against Dooku: “Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith— But Palpatine’s words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.” None of these are real concerns for Anakin but thinking about them would nonetheless ”freeze away his strength,” the same as Kenobi knowing ”that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.”

The difference is Anakin is an entirely different character from Kenobi. He’s constantly afraid and is much more susceptible to shit which is in actuality incredibly unlikely to affect him. Kenobi, on the other hand, has a much more logical and stable mind, and any worries he may have about the battle are more than likely legitimate concerns.

Note: Just to clarify, while I have acknowledged that the desert probably wasn’t a major factor I’m mainly refuting this because it also somewhat serves as a rebuttal to Kenobi’s comments about him not having fought in combat recently.

For example, why would Kenobi being Hett’s senior by only ten years be relevant? That didn’t hinder him against Vader. In fact, age has never mattered unless the combatants didn’t have excessive Force reserves to draw on or if they were exceedingly close. If we treat this as an actual factor, I can’t see Hett as anything but a near-equal of Kenobi since for the latter’s age to come into play, his Force reserves would have to be depleted, and if Hett can do that he is obviously Kenobi’s peer. And if we don’t treat it as a factor, then Hett’s experience in the desert also wouldn’t have mattered beyond the possibility of him exploiting the ground against Kenobi, which he briefly did only once.

I wouldn’t say Kenobi’s age was a factor, in all honesty, but merely something that could have come into play like the environment but didn’t end up doing so.

D) Final Thoughts

To me it looks like Kenobi still isn’t going for the kill here:

The fact that Kenobi didn’t end up killing Hett, doesn’t preclude him from having tried to in the last few moments of the duel. By this logic, Dooku wasn’t trying to kill Kenobi in ROTS when he threw him across the room, because Kenobi ended up knocked out rather than dead.

Multiple times now you’ve professed your belief that a dearth of fatal intent means one is holding back, but here you say Kenobi went all-out even though he wasn’t aiming to kill. This is the second time you’ve contradicted yourself now.

As I explained above there is no contradiction.

And let’s look at this “stomp” again: “Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm.” That’s far too opportunistic of a victory for me to call it a stomp. All he did was Force push Hett and take his arm when he was open. Yes, he created that opening himself, but it wasn’t through overwhelming power or sheer skill with the blade, just a good mix of craftiness and timing.

Speed also played into this “stomp,” (Force pushing Hett before he could raise a defence) which is entirely dependent on augmentation. So, no, this victory can be called a “stomp” rather than simply “opportunistic”.

Also, rethinking it I’m not sure this fight can be used to draw definitive parity between Kenobi and Hett. They clash blades, only a few times at the start of the duel before Hett floors Kenobi with a kick. This is not enough to draw definitive parity between the two, as we’ve seen in the lore that weaker Force User have been able to land lucky hits on far stronger ones, such as when Shaak Ti hit Galen in the TFU comic prior to Galen severely wounding her with an omnidirectional TK attack while weakened (7), or Barriss landing a TK attack on Anakin prior to him telekinetically dominating her in TCW S5 (8), or Aurra Sing landing a kick on Jacen Solo in Legacy of the Force: Tempest despite the fact that Jacen was capable of one-shotting her with Force Lightning (9). The next hit Hett lands is a direct a direct continuation of the first attack with him attacking Kenobi while the latter had barely gotten back on his feet. From that moment onwards, Kenobi displays decisive superiority. He responds to Hett’s physical strikes in kind by kicking him in the stomach, blocks Hett’s blows despite the latter abusing the environment and then finishes him with a Force Push. In short, while this fight definitely proves Kenobi can’t stomp Hett or anything of that nature it doesn’t prove Hett’s on his tier.

Good. Darth Krayt (Legacy # 1) >>>> A’Sharad Hett < Obi-Wan Kenobi (amped) > Obi-Wan Kenobi (standard) = Darth Vader (pre-suit) > Anakin Skywalker >>> Count Dooku. The feats you brought up for the Count are irrelevant and not in need of addressing as Krayt scales massively above them anyway.

Completely and utterly false. Now time to address your rather weak rebuttals to my scaling chain.

3) Karness Muur vs Darth Krayt

A) Krayt’s Weakness

Darth Krayt had been ignoring the coral seeds devouring him for the past seven years since Legacy # 1, but could not longer afford to do so, indicating his ailment was worsening. He captures Cade Skywalker, hoping he could heal him, but Cade escapes his clutches. Legacy # 27 reveals that “Cade’s escape has left the Emperor weakened”, and he found his body “disintegrating”. Said escape happened in Legacy # 19. In between the two issues, Krayt rejuvenates his body in a stasis chamber and by feeding on the terror of the Mon Calamari population. Yet he is still “weakened” - this means it’s permanent. So in his fight with Muur, he’s had two major decreases in power since Legacy # 1, the severity of which is highlighted by Krayt’s comments on his condition at the start of the series compared to them from just prior to his encounter with Muur: “My body fails me, Wyyrlok [...] How long have I fought this thing which threatens to take me over and make me not myself? How much longer can I keep it at bay? A decade or two perhaps… not more.” vs. “My time is running out, Wyyrlok. I can feel it. My… control of the coral seeds the Yuuzhan Vong planted within me wanes. Soon I will be a mindless thing. Or a corpse.”

You haven’t proven either decrease was significant. The fact that Krayt was afraid that he would die soon, because his hold over the coral seeds was beginning to weaken doesn’t mean he’d decreased in power. As for his bout with Cade Skywalker, all you’ve proven is that he decreased afterward not that he did so significantly, and by all evidence the decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #2 shouldn’t be significant as I’ll detail below.

As you’ve detailed here, during Legacy Krayt and Cade have a fight, where Krayt is hard pressed and forced to go into stasis (10). Throughout the rest of Legacy, and most of Legacy: War Cade does not complete his Jedi training and does very little which would cause any kind of significant increase in power. All evidence of a power increase is absent, and in fact, there is evidence suggesting otherwise with Cade consistently, struggling with Darth Talon (11). Towards the end of Legacy: War, however, he achieves new mastery over the Force and stomps Darth Talon in their final duel (12) before finally engaging with Krayt (13). Krayt upon being reborn increases significantly in power and has now completely healed himself from the coral seeds killing him. The two engage each other, and then the comic cuts away. Krayt and Cade then duel for a significant period of time off screen, while the comic focuses on Antares and the rest of the Imperial Knights. When it cuts back Krayt finishes off Cade with Dark Transfer. Cade holds out against it for an extended period of time (Krayt has a really long speech) despite Krayt using his full power and attempting to kill him. The fact that Cade duels Krayt for an extended period of time, and resists his Dark Transfer for so long indicates he’s comparably powerful to Reborn Krayt. By all available evidence, Cade and Krayt are relative as of Legacy: War and Legacy which means Krayt’s increase in power can be gauged to be around the same as Cade’s. Given that the gap between Legacy #31 Krayt and Reborn Krayt is significantly greater than the gap between Legacy #1 Krayt and Legacy #31 Krayt, we can logically deduce that Cade’s power increase in the last few issues of Legacy is greater than Krayt’s decrease between Legacy #1 and Legacy #31. Am I to presume, that Cade somehow gaining new mastery over the Force jumped him from sub-Morne+Muur to Yoda tier? It’s highly doubtful, because of the hilarious gaps between the two (see my first post for details), and given that Anakin (despite having far greater potential than Cade and undergoing a similar process) didn’t increase in power nearly that much in ROTS during his transition between the LS and the DS despite having crushed his fears and removed all his mental barriers.

B) Celeste Morne and Karness Muur

The Muur Talisman is an item Karness Muur uses as an anchor for his spirit to remain in the physical realm. The Talisman is capable of tying itself to a victim and allowing Muur to possess them if their will is lesser than his, and manifest his power through them: “The Talisman has always sought out a powerful Force user so that Muur would have access to Force powers through them.” Should the victim’s will be stronger than Muur’s, they can retain control of their body, but still be able to draw on Muur’s power to bolster their own: “I can feel you tapping into Muur’s dark power to fight me, Jedi.” The strong-willed victim can also lend their body over to Muur while retaining their consciousness and individuality, to the result of combining the powers of themselves and Muur: “Your power will be mine and my power will be yours.”

Celeste Morne resisted Karness Muur for 136 years. Willpower has been stated by Darths Plagueis, Sidious, and Wyyrlok III to be the main factor in Force power, so it should be a reliable indicator of a Force user’s overall strength. Thus, Morne keeping Muur at bay for such a long time demonstrates she is at least as powerful as he, if not more so. This is corroborated when Muur states she is “a suitable host,” meaning her body can house his spirit, and when the two combine their powers, her body endures fine, demonstrating her midi-chlorian count is well in excess of Muur’s original body.

That’s great and all but once again even in combination with Krayt’s decrease, it doesn’t remotely compensate for the hilarious disparity between Yoda and Muur. Celeste is demonstrably comparably powerful to Muur using your logic as he takes over her body several times during the issues of Legacy they appear in (14), and she admits she is losing control over him (15). Hell, we can even use Krayt to prove that Muur is somewhat comparable. Celeste is weaker than a significantly weakened Krayt per your own words yet we know she is comparably powerful to Krayt (per the quote I provided) with Muur’s help, meaning Muur has to bridge the gap between her and Krayt, showing that at the very least there isn’t a gargantuan disparity between him and Morne.

C) The Fight Itself

I don’t have any complaints with your analysis regarding most of the fight, but I feel the need to address the end as it could be used to potentially prove that Krayt is more powerful than Celeste amped Muur.

Yet Krayt still lives despite all these factors and was even able to negate the worst of Morne-Muur’s lightning as his skin is as it used to be versus Azlyn’s being scorched, and after that still had the Force reserves to break his 100-meter-fall. Muur, whose power had more than doubled, couldn’t kill 1% Vong Krayt with his most powerful attack that was also mostly mitigated by Krayt, and you think a non-amped Muur is stronger than a fresh Krayt?

1% is a hilarious exaggeration. Anyway, Krayt not getting fried by Muur’s power doesn’t prove he’s uber powerful and greater than Morne+Muur or whatever, given that the blast was omnidirectional meaning he would have been hit by the barest fraction of the power of the blast. Please quantify the extent of Krayt’s weakness and the amount of power he withstood so we can compare the two. If you can’t we have a completely unquantifiable showing which doesn’t prove anything.

D) The Publisher Summary

The quote proposes a possibility, not declare Karness Muur is definitively more powerful than Darth Krayt. “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”

Yes, but the fact that it proposes such a possibility indicates the obvious intent is that Muur is comparably powerful to Krayt. There would be absolutely no reason to hype up Muur as better than Krayt if he’s in actuality far weaker him.

At the end of the issue, Krayt is seemingly killed and Muur threatens to possess Cade Skywalker - that’s an entirely plausible setup to tease the following: “But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”

Except the quote is literally talking about the events before Cade and the others try to kill Krayt so it can’t be referring to Krayt’s death and Muur threatening to possess Cade: “Darth Krayt may finally be captured and defeated in the trap set by Cade Skywalker and Jedi Master of old Celeste Morne. But Emperor Krayt might no longer be the most powerful Sith lord in the galaxy. Will Cade and Celeste have another Sith to defeat . . . or join?”

From the comic itself, we know that in a combative context, Muur is weaker than Krayt at the brink of death. And regardless, as a publisher’s summary, it has the same veracity as a blurb at the back of a book: not objective evidence per Leland Chee.

Chee doesn’t think any quotes are absolute or 100% binding (e.g. quotes from Sourcebooks and the like), yet we still accept them for the purposes of the debate so I don’t see why we shouldn’t hold a Publisher’s Summary to the same standard.

Also, it’s irrelevant anyway given Insider states that Muur possessed powers which “outshone” Krayt’s.

4) Conclusion

You have provided me with nothing to suggest Krayt is comparably powerful to Dooku. Your rebuttals to the Kenobi vs Dooku fight were less than adequate, and you didn’t even begin to justify how Krayt could possibly be comparable to Yoda when he’s weaker than Muur+Morne as of Legacy #31. The only points in your post that were remotely convincing were the ones you made on the Kenobi vs Hett fight, but even then you didn’t fully manage to convince me the two are relative. Meanwhile I have provided actual accolades and feats (see the final section of my second post) which prove Dooku has what it takes to win this battle.

5) Sources

1:

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

2:

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Credit: Revenge of the Sith Novelization

3a:

OBI-WAN takes a deep breath, gets a fresh grip on his lightsaber and comes in again. For a moment, he drives COUNT DOOKU back.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Script

3b:

And ANAKIN charges at COUNT DOOKU. The force of his attack catches the Count slightly off balance. Anakin's lightsaber flashes. COUNT DOOKU draws back, putting a hand to his arm. He takes the hand away and looks at the smear of blood whee Anakin has nicked him.

Credit: Attack of the Clones Script

4:

“Of course, he's the chosen one," whispered Gillard. "The audience will want to see that manifest itself. There needs to be flashes of brilliance. He's more skilled than Obi-Wan. Anakin always attacks. He's better and he knows it, which means he's brash on occasion."

5:

He felt weary. Well, wearier. That last fight on Almania had stolen a lot of his strength. Keeping himself going despite his injury had taken more. And now this. What he had sacrificed he would eventually regain, after rest and food and meditation, but for now he felt tired to his bones. He wondered if the same was true of Abeloth.

Credit: Fate of the Jedi: Conviction

6:

“Count on it.” Jacen burst into a sprint; the Force lent wings to his heels, driving him inhumanly fast, and faster, and faster still. He covered the hundred meters in an eyeblink, and found Anakin still well ahead, still looking back, beckoning, urging him onward.

Credit: NJO: Traitor

7:

A, B, C, D, E, F, G.

8:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6_0Y4nnylA

9:

Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.
The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.
Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.

"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."

She kicked again.

"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his lightsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.

A fiery blur continued to blind one eye, and his sight in the other was still splashed with crimson blotches. But he could see clearly enough to be worried. Sing had landed near the refresher where Allana was hiding-close enough to fulfill her contract, if she was willing to risk Jacen attacking her from behind.

Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.

That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."
Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.
Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

But Allana suddenly appeared on the other side of Sing, charging forward with her dark brows lowered and what looked like a small recording rod clutched in her hands.

"Allana, no!"

Allana kept coming.

Determined to keep Sing from striking out at his daughter with any of her weapons, Jacen Force-leapt backward, dragging the assassin away from his daughter. Allana took two more steps and raised the silver rod over her head . . . then dived.

Sing raised her uninjured leg, cocking her foot to kick Allana with the stubby knife in the toe of her boot.

Jacen screamed and whipped Sing's arm around, twisting her away from his daughter. Her lightsaber flashed by so close he nearly lost an ear, but the assassin's legs spun around with her body, and the kick-knife flashed past half a meter above Allana's head.
Allana landed on Sing's other leg and jammed the silver rod into her injured knee. The hiss of an autoinjector sounded from its tip, and Sing cried out in astonishment.

"You little shrew!"

Sing drew her leg back again to kick . . . then let it drop to the floor. Her eyes widened in anger-or perhaps it was fear. She craned her neck around, staring at Allana, and began to convulse. Jacen quickly pulled Sing's lightsaber from her unresisting hand, then held the still-ignited tip to the assassin's neck.

Credit: LOTF: Tempest

10:

A, B, C.

“Get me to the stasis chamber. The battle with Skywalker has cost me.”

-Star Wars: Legacy 27: Into the Core (Darth Krayt)

11:

A) I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX, X.

B) I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII, IX.

C) I, II, III, IV, V, VI.

12:

A, B, C.

13:

A, B, C, D, E, F.

14:

http://suspectinsight.forumotion.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-ArkhamAsylum3/morne-says-she-lost-control-of-muur-pic_256.htm