Darth Krayt vs Exar Kun

Oh You know not casually leaking a doc that take months to make just for the act of trolling yeah very good AP!

LadyKulvax wrote:You literally came into the thread and attacked me for daring to reference Leland Chee, who we all know you hate. So how about you actually bring up a point worth my time or stop wasting it.

I haven't cried or whined, you turned into Karen. I'm here stomping Krayt, as it always should be.

What are you bro, one of them coloured hair feminists? I didn't attack jack shit. Not my problem if you get offended so easily

And please do explain, for whom I feel such hatred for

I haven't cried or whined, you turned into Karen. I'm here stomping Krayt, as it always should be.

I didn't object to your efforts of "stomping Krayt" and don't give a fuck about such a lame character

Your arms are just too short to box with this God.

Whatever you say bro, I am sure authors don't see it that way though

LadyKulvax wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

You couldn't form a single coherent, individual opinion if you were forced to represent yourself in a North Korean death sentence trial.

Not Even sure if to take You seriously or not besides got better shit to do that dealing with mindless beasts.

LadyKulvax wrote:You legit just insulted me, lmfao. Are you actually senile?

since when fair suggestions are insults?

the only insult that I made was comparing you to ISV, which was due to your aggresions bro

Good chat

Sorry about the late response, but work and school makes it difficult to free up time. Also, your post brushes up on some topics I've discussed extensively on discord and have been wanting to discuss on forum, mainly regarding methodologies, so I felt I shouldn't rush what I have to say. With that said...

[size=37]Vader's having his estimations of his own power inflated by Muur during that scene. That's Muur trying to convince Vader to take the amulet, when Muur's literally just going to dominate him so he can break free and live again.[/size]

Muur is tempting Vader with prospects of destroying Sidious yes. But this doesn't mean Vader suddenly forgets how powerful his own abilities are lol. Vader knows his limitations and he isn't suddenly going to believe he's far more powerful than he actually is, just because a sith spirit(Vader at this point is well aware of the treachery of the sith) says so. In fact, this line of thought runs contradictory to Muur's designs. Muur wants Vader to use the power being offered to him, and you don't do that by inflating Vader's sense of power. You do that by making the help that's being offered seem integral to the cause, so if there was any power inflation going on there, it'd be Muur's, not Vader's. But then, if Muur was gassing himself up in an attempt at manipulating Vader, doesn't this also hurt my argument? Not really, because fundamentally, we're discussing a universe where individuals can sense each other's power. So Vader would only legitimately consider Muur's offer if he deemed the power he was sensing from Muur to be great enough to defeat Sidious, should he add it to his own. With this in mind, let's suppose for a moment, that spirit Muur is indeed weaker than physical muur, who we can both agree is vastly below Malak, who's in turn vastly below RotS Sidious. Do we really think it's plausible for Vader to sense the power of a dude Sidious can wrist-flick and conclude "brao, if me and this guy linked up, Sidious is fucked". To me, the logical answer is no. Vader's ability to sense Muur's power, coupled with Vader at this point being massively inferior to people Sidious can handwave, necessitates Spirit Muur being with RotS Sidious. And the big thing for me is that nothing you've provided precludes spirit Muur growing stronger over the millennia. Even if the "growing more dangerous" quote didn't exist, my stance would be the same. SW is a universe where countless authors, each with their own individual(and often differing) opinions and intent, produce content that gets stitched together to form something that is meant to resemble a cohesive narrative. This process will inevitably lead to unintended consequences, but those consequences are necessary if the narrative is to remain cohesive. So Muur growing over the course of the millennia doesn't need to be explicitly stated, as long as nothing prevents it from being the case, it's fair game.

Regarding chee, the first scan you provided tells us all we need to know really. The question is regarding a general goat sith debate, with Sidious' name being brought in as an example. Chee might latch onto Sidious as an example, but he's still answering the general question of, to paraphrase, "if a source states X(with Sidious being used as the example) is the goat sith, does that end the debate?" Which makes sense if you look at just what Chee says in his response. He's telling us ALL supremacy quotes remain disputable because such a quote might be referring to factors beside force power, and then mentions possible factors at play with a Sidious supremacy quote because Sidious was the example given by the questionnaire. 

The second scan vindicates my analysis. Some person says "there's no hard and facts list" of most powerful sith, and that the term "most powerful" has many variables to take into account. This person then concludes by saying continuity people(IE Chee) don't have absolute stances regarding the power levels of characters. Chee then AGREES with this person and says he doesn't deal in absolutes. Chee doesn't even mention Sidious in this scan, he's just agreeing with a guy who's talking generally, about all supremacy quotes.

The third scan does refer to Palpatine specifically, but that doesn't preclude Chee also believing it generally, as demonstrated in the first 2 scans you so nicely provided.


And even if we suppose that Chee really was only talking about Sidious specifically in all 3 scans, there's no rational reason why Chee's reasoning can't be extrapolated to apply to all sith supremacy quotes, or just supremacy quotes in general. If you want to appeal to Chee, or any author type figure for that matter, you should also be forced to take their logic, aka their methodology, to their conclusions. Why should we do this? Well, imagine a methodology as the laws that govern a universe, with the conclusions drawn from said methodology acting as the calculations to particular problems in physics or mathematics. Now imagine taking data derived from a universe with a different set of laws to our own and implementing said data into our universe. You're going to get wonky and incorrect answers. "What's that Siddharth? The speed of light is 5 m/s in that other universe? Well let's use that to calculate the frequency of visible light in our universe...where the speed of light is 300,000,000 m/s. Yeah that will work... To bring this back to Chee and methodologies, to use his opinions while simultaneously ignoring the logical reasoning said opinions are derived from, will lead to wonky conclusions. If you want to use Chee fine, but be consistent, and don't avert your eyes from where his logic takes you.

[size=37]'Truly live again' as Ostrander puts it, denotes that this is in fact Muur's endgame. To gain a host he can dominate, become more powerful, and return to his living form:[/size]

Muur wanting a body doesn't preclude him growing more powerful. Which makes sense since despite growing, he can't effectively manifest it without a body.

[size=37]If you seriously need a quote for JA Kun being inferior to TOTJ Kun then you're only proving how little information your argument is really based on.[/size]

[size=37]First of all, Kun's power is extinguished by the combined power of the Jedi Order:[/size]

I didn't ask because I was unaware of what supposed evidence existed, I asked so that you would be the one to show it. That way I won't be accused of strawmanning your argument when I tear it down. Anyways...

Spirit Kun's power being extinguished by the WoL doesn't preclude the power he had gained from the ritual prior to the WoL being exponentially above Physical TotJ Kun. And here I suspect you'll say something along the lines of "Nothing says the ritual increased Kun's power. But as I said earlier regarding Muur's growth as a spirit, this isn't a case where explicit textual confirmation is necessary in order for my case to stand. Malak, Maul, and lesser incarnations of Sidious all possess quotes that restrict physical TotJ Kun to immensely below his JA level, which necessitates growth once he became a spirit. I posit that the ritual must have been the catalyst for such insane growth, but that isn't necessary. One doesn't need to know why something has happened to deduce that something has happened. The ritual growth theory is there simply to help people like you sleep at night. But if you can't do that, tough. 

Regarding the author quote you provided...

Firstly, I'm confused as to why you're using an author quote as evidence for someone who clings to Chee like a LFL addict. Authors are in no way shape or form binding under LFL, so if we operate under that methodology I can just handwave these author quotes. But given that I don't operate under LFL I'll explain to you why we shouldn't care about them when it comes to power levels without appealing to LFL:

The reason is two fold: one, authors operate under methodologies that are completely different to vs debaters. And as I discussed earlier in my physics analogy, mixing methodologies doesn't work. You shouldn't cite an author's opinion on power levels while simultaneously using scaling chains if that author would look at our scaling chains and think our whole community is autistic. The second reason is that as soon as an author's work becomes a part of the wider EU, their intent becomes just one of dozens, with each author having their own agendas and opinions. I won't deny that Veitch thinks that Kun was more powerful in physical form than as a spirit, but his opinion stopped mattering as soon as his works became apart of the same universe that has authors who believe TPM Maul>Kun. Kun growing as a spirit might not have been intended, but it's a consequence that's necessitated by the Malak quote as well as Maul and Sidious' supremacy quotes. 

To summarize: 
1.You never provided evidence that precludes Muur growing more powerful as a spirit, leaving my Krayt>RotS Sidious scaling intact.
2.Chee's thinks supremacy quotes aren't binding in general, both explicitly and through extrapolating his logic
3. Chee fact checking a source that contains a power level statement is not proof of Chee endorsing said power level statement
4. Any theoretical power level stance Chee may have shouldn't matter
3. You provided no evidence, aside from an author quote, that precludes spirit Kun>Living Kun, which leaves my RotS Sidious>>>Malak>>>physical TotJ Kun scaling intact
4. Author quotes on power levels don't matter, with or without LFL.

As I've said before, Krayt ragdolls

Would you mind copy pasting those arguments I supposedly ignored. Me not quoting your entire post doesn't mean I didn't address your whole post

Krayt wins.

Seturna wrote:Krayt wins.

No he doesn’t

Good fight for both.

Although some members are of the view that Darth Krayt will find Exar Kun easy to defeat - I disagree with this view because the latter is packing surprises of his own (excellence in Sith Sorcery). Kun's fight with Luke Skywalker is instructive in this regard - same Luke who managed to defeat Darth Vader and substantially grew in power afterwards, to the point of manipulating gigantic constructs in ways unheard of and even out-dueled Palpatine in one encounter, but he could not produce a counter to Kun's Sith Sorcery. Kun is also exceptionally skilled with a lightsaber.

Both might find a way to defeat each other subject to how the two gauge each other. Kun does not play games with an opponent though.

Vaelias wrote:

Seturna wrote:Krayt wins.

No he doesn’t

Why doesn’t he?

Kun r1. Krayt r2.

Seturna wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

Seturna wrote:Krayt wins.

No he doesn’t

Why doesn’t he?

Scroll up I explained

Vaelias wrote:

Seturna wrote:

Vaelias wrote:

Seturna wrote:Krayt wins.

No he doesn’t

Why doesn’t he?

Scroll up I explained

Must’ve missed it. Where?

Exar Kun wins.