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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on August 24th 2019, 4:32 am
Except you seem to have equated Tenebrae being at full power with Tenebrae using Vaylin's absorbed power, which he loses when the Outlander frees her with Dramath's cron. How is Tenebrae at full power when he's literally stated to only have 'cheated death' by attaching to the Outlander when he lets them kill him and grooming the Outlander to become a suitable host for his power across both expansions. He's literally at a major disadvantage here. The only real source of power is what's left of his power as a spirit and what he absorbed from Vaylin. That doesn't mean he's at max nor does it negate the major advantages and boons they had in the battle of wills.

Full-power Tenebrae is the one who tricks the Outlander and Arcann into killing him. Not the spirit fighting for the possession of the Outlander where the Outlander has the holocron and has probably the biggest advantage you could possibly have. It's what got Sheev killed permanently in DE.
The Ellimist
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on August 24th 2019, 10:16 am
@Quorian Debatist interesting arguments

Anyway, in addition to the convincing scaling argument you can use to place Luke above DE Sidious that I put in my SS with ILS on the topic, I think Luke's performance against UnuThul puts him solidly above Valkorion.
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on August 24th 2019, 11:04 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Luke wins via reasons.
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on August 25th 2019, 4:14 am
UnuThul isn't even ~ Tenebrae, lmfao.

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on August 25th 2019, 5:03 am
Azronger wrote:Luke wins since Valkorion dissolves into nothing by virtue of being a spirit. Even if you argue he could sustain himself without an anchor, Luke can banish him with Force harmony.

How can Luke use force harmony on his own?
Master Azronger
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on August 25th 2019, 11:25 am
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
Azronger wrote:Luke wins since Valkorion dissolves into nothing by virtue of being a spirit. Even if you argue he could sustain himself without an anchor, Luke can banish him with Force harmony.

How can Luke use force harmony on his own?

Force light then or whatever it is he used against Abeloth.
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on May 28th 2020, 9:55 am
All out 

Who win
Master Azronger
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on May 28th 2020, 1:36 pm
Merged the threads

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Sheev_sig_3
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on May 28th 2020, 11:14 pm
Valkorion. His feats and scaling implications in KOTET Chapter 9 especially are beyond any feats or scaling I believe Luke possesses. Obviously not a concrete opinion though, I can be convinced either way depending on what the primary scaling for Luke is.

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on May 29th 2020, 12:33 am
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Let's try some lesser-used stuff here in order to answer this. I know Praxis Praxed it with expert Praxcision, but everyone is joining in, including DC's excellent point, so I might as well.

ILS wrote:
@Praxis wrote:Full power Valk is kinda hard to quantify since we never really got to see him in action aside from one-shotting Darth Marr and Arcann so I'm gonna have to go with Luke.
What are the implications of being able to oneshot Marr or Arcann, though? Especially with as little effort as Valk did.

What level do we peg them at?

Marr was quoted to possibly be the strongest Sith in the Empire, bar Vitiate, as of Act 3. On a level with Nox, Emperor's Wrath II, and considerably more powerful than Thanaton or Baras. And Arcann was on a level where he could clearly dominate post-Ziost SWTOR protagonists from any of the 8 classes, in lightsaber combat or with the Force.

And Valk simply oneshots Marr and Arcann like they are nothing.

How many people can claim to be capable of destroying Force users of that calibre so easily?

Another question is how does Luke break through Valk's lightsaber-proof barrier? He could end up in a similar situation to Arcann where he tries, fails, and leaves himself open to a blast.

The problem, of course, is that neither Marr nor Arcann lifted a finger to defend themselves. Marr was fighting guards and just watched the blast come at him without moving, and Arcann was busy recoiling awkwardly in a completely casual stance with one foot in the air.

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Luke on the other hand, likely understands that you don't need to bash against an unarmed opponent/shield like you're trying to knock over a brick wall with a sledgehammer. That overextension to point where you literally bounce off a shield and just stand there without defending yourself is something maybe Force Rage ROTJ Luke would do. Luke doesn't put himself off balance because he understands that it doesn't take much to kill someone with a saber. Arcann, however, swings his saber like Luke trying to kill his dad. Luke has come a long way since then:

The Swarm War:

Lomi Plo's reaction came so suddenly that Luke doubted even she was expecting it. She just came flying at him with both blades flashing, striking high and low from opposite sides in a desperate attempt to finish him off.

Luke, of course, had anticipated this, too. Lomi Plo had no power over him. He simply stepped inside her attack and flicked his wrist twice, first sweeping his blade upward, then whipping it around in a backslash, and she landed at his feet in four parts.

To further cast doubt on Luke getting caught off guard, or hit by lightning, we can look to his scuffle with The Hidden One too. The lightning was so potent it actually slammed Luke into a pillar while throwing him back and still the lightning didn't touch Luke, nor did he drop his defenses.


"This is no experiment." The Hidden One was suddenly on his feet, his voice raised in a shrill shout, his anger so potent that all present except Luke and Ben took a step backward. "It is our way, and it will continue to be our way, and it is time for you to be silent and obey."

"Like the dead." Sorrowfully, Ithia shook her head. "No, Master."

The Hidden One stood on his platform, breathing hard, and then stepped down to the stone floor. "I see. I cannot let these humans remain among us even for the time it would take them to suffocate. Their influence is too strong." He raised his hands. Little crackles of electricity flickered between them. "I will show you life. I will show you the Force."

"Ben," Luke whispered. "Stand back."

It happened all at once: the Hidden One gesturing toward Luke, Ben leaping away, lightning flashing from the Hidden One's hands. It was not the purplish lightning of Emperor Palpatine, which had so nearly cost Luke his life nearly forty years before; it was all brilliant whiteness.

Luke had his lightsaber activated and up in time. The lightning crackled against his glowing blade. The strength behind the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head.

But the lightning did not reach him. His blade kept it at bay. And, bracing himself with the Force, Luke took a step forward.

The Hidden One tossed his head. It was not just a gesture of anger; Luke felt the motion as a ripple in the Force. The air in the chamber responded, a wind springing up and roaring around the walls of the chamber, gaining speed and strength. It tattered the robes of the Kel Dors near the walls as it went. It veered from the wall over the throne and howled down at Luke, engulfing him, trying to drive him backward.

Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself. Then, against the might of both wind and lightning, he took another step forward.

The Hidden One's eyes widened. His head rolled around on his shoulders, and the roar of air across Luke intensified. It tore at his robes, causing them to stand out from his body, shudder, and snap in the wind.

Luke took another step forward. It was slow going, for the Hidden One's power was great, but Luke now felt sure in his footing and in his own strength.

Out of the corner of his eye, he saw Kel Dors retreating, some of them streaming out through the blast door, Ben waving them onward.

The Hidden One's face, flushed fully red, was contorted in a mask of anger. He flicked his fingers and the lightning ceased. He moved his now freed hands in circular gestures. Luke felt the wind increase in ferocity. Most of it still whirled around the chamber before battering at him, but some, a diverted flow, spun in a tight circle directly in front of the Hidden One. As Luke watched, that errant stream of air swallowed up dust from the floor and walls, defining its outlines as a miniature funnel cloud, a few centimeters wide at its base and broadening to two meters at the ceiling. It writhed like a mortally wounded serpent.

With a gesture, the Hidden One sent the whirlwind straight at Luke.

Luke lunged at it, visualizing it, wrenching at it with the Force. His exertion was like a physical blow as he stepped into it. He felt the wind intensify for a bare moment, and then his telekinetic attack flung the whirlwind free. It rocketed off to the side and hammered into a pillar to Luke's left.

Luke took another step forward. He was more than halfway to the Hidden One now. He deactivated his lightsaber. He could turn it on again swiftly enough if the Hidden One brought forth his lightning a second time.

The whirlwind moved from pillar to pillar as if leaping. When it was directly behind Luke, it lingered there. Luke kept his senses, both the physical ones and that of the Force, alert to its movements. It hammered at the pillar itself, and Luke could hear and feel the permacrete mounting at the summit begin to crack.

The mounting at the base broke, too, and the pillar toppled toward Luke. He heard Ben's warning cry. He raised his left hand backward, using the same exertion he'd made a moment earlier against the whirlwind itself, and the pillar stopped, frozen in midfall. He gestured again and it reversed direction, toppling onto the empty floor.

And Luke took another step forward.

The Hidden One's howl of outrage was like that of his own wind. The stone throne behind him rocked and rattled on its platform.

Luke made a sweeping gesture, bringing his rear hand forward, and with it came the toppled pillar, flying forward like a spear. As the throne launched itself toward him, the pillar met it in midair, shattering the stone scat into a dozen pieces, some smooth-cut and some broken.

Luke let the pillar fall to the floor. With a wave of his hand, he sent it rolling toward the Hidden One, who leapt sideways over it as it neared him.

Luke was already in motion as the Hidden One jumped. The Kel Dor's concentration was broken, his control over the wind diminished, and Luke was able to race forward three steps in the time it took the Hidden One to clear the rolling pillar. As the Baran Do Master came down again, Luke kicked out, a spinning kick that caught the Kel Dor in the gut, throwing him backward. The Hidden One smashed up against the platform's front, crushing in its wooden front panel.

Remarkably, he stood up from the impact, raised his hands for another attack . . . and collapsed, falling onto his face.

The wind died. The rolling pillar fetched up against one that was still upright and stopped. All sounds died except that of the Hidden One's strained, frantic breathing.

Luke has known how to deflect lightning to some degree as well for around 38 years as well.

The Last Command:

The blast caught Mara square in the chest, throwing her backward to slam into the guardrail behind her. "Stop it!" Luke shouted, getting in front of her and igniting his lightsaber. C'baoth ignored him, firing a second burst. Luke caught most of it on his lightsaber blade, grimacing as the part he missed jolted through his muscles. C'baoth fired a third burst, and a fourth, and a fifth.

And then, abruptly, he lowered his hands. "You will not presume to give me commands, Jedi Skywalker," he said, his voice strangely petulant. "I am the master. You are the servant."

"I'm not your servant," Luke told him, stepping back and throwing a quick look at Mara. She was still pretty much on her feet, clutching the guardrail for support. Her eyes were open but not fully aware, her breath making little moaning sounds as she exhaled between clenched teeth. Laying his free hand on her shoulder, wincing at the stink of ozone, Luke began a quick probe of her injuries.

Lesser members of Luke's Order knew how to reverse and snake the lightning back through their blades as well:


The Jaden-clone deactivated his lightsaber and raised his free hand, fingers spread like a claw. Jaden knew instantly what was coming and braced himself as blue Force lightning filled the distance between them.

Jaden adjusted his blade slightly and the lightning caught in it, snaked around its length, spiraled toward the hilt, hit Jaden's hand, his forearm, his bicep.

The power burned his flesh while turning his spirit cold. He grimaced with pain. Trying to resist, he opened himself fully to the Force, but the clone's power was too much.

He screamed, took his lightsaber hilt in both hands and spun it before him, winding the Force lightning back up along its blade and away from his body. But his focus on the lightning cost him, and a renewed push from the Katarn-clone slammed him against the wall. The side of his face hit the duracrete and he sagged to the floor, struggling to maintain consciousness.

As for Luke's speed, he reacts and changes the direction of an attack mid-swing in an injured state to an Abeloth - who can move fast enough to unwind her tentacles from Luke, strike Vestara, and bind them back to Luke. The only reason he realized she attacked was that he felt her touch:

Vortex wrote:In the next instant, the girl want cartwheeling across the room. The blow had been so quick that Luke did not even realize Vestara had been struck until Abeloth's tentacle retracted and began to twine itself around his forearm.

Vortex wrote:But Abeloth was advancing on his son now; lashing high and low When Ben extended a hand to summon Taalon's lightsaber, her tentacle caught his wrist before it arrived, and she spun him into her grasp.

So Luke extended his hand, summoning the weapon into his grasp and stepping in to attack in the same instant. As the blade crackled to life, it was already descending toward her collarbone.

Abeloth would not be killed so easily. She spun around, swinging Ben like a club. It was all Luke could do to shift his strike and cleave through her shoulder instead of his son's head, and even then Ben's swinging hips caught him under the arms, and Abeloth sent them both tumbling toward the fiery cleft in the stage pit.

Luke caught his son in one arm and grabbed for the front wall with the Force. They came down on the first seating tier, more or less on their feet, and facing Abeloth.

If she had ever been anything but a monster, she did not look it now Her eyes ware blazing pits of silver fire, her wide mouth a gaping cave of fangs. The tentacles on her remaining shoulder ware lashing around her in a wild tempest that was either a defensive pattern or an expression of immortal fury, and she was surrounded by a knee-high ring of shimmering Force energy that seemed to be pouring from her wound.


  • Luke isn't sloppy enough to overexert himself into bashing against a shield repeatedly.
  • Luke's defenses are capable of shielding the full brunt of the attack and can reverse it if need be.
  • Luke is fast enough to react and account for any telegraphed attack or even sudden attack.

I could sit here and try and say he bashes through his shield, but I won't do that. Instead, let's go around it.

Here Luke force pulls Abeloth who just tanked his force push. He also takes an extended lightning blast from her and gets up and starts fighting as soon as he lands after a toss.


With the first rank of Sith only two steps from the other side of the stack-head, he tossed his blaster behind him and extended a hand, grabbing four Sith ankles in a crushing Force grasp. He pulled them toward the pit.

Three of the Sith found themselves suddenly falling into the stack-head. They screamed and twisted, desperately searching for something they could grab-then plummeted out of sight. The fourth Sith managed to Force hurl himself backward and land on his side of the pit. Before Luke could drag him forward, a glass parang left the scabbard hanging from the man's belt and came flying.

Luke redirected the parang with little more than a thought, but by then Korelei and another Keshiri were in the air over the stack-head, their lightsabers ignited and their eyes fixed on Luke. He lit his own weapon and sprang to his feet, at the same time hitting them both with a Force blast that sent the male Keshiri tumbling back across the pit.

Korelei did not even feel it. She merely swung her lightsaber down to block Luke's slash, then planted a stomp kick square in his chest and sent him sailing down the duct backward.

Luke came down five meters away, a crushing pain in his chest. He struggled to draw breath. Korelei was barely two paces away, her fingers already glowing blue with the Force lightning she was about to hurl. With neither the time nor the strength to leap up, Luke merely reached for her in the Force, then turned his lightsaber toward her midsection and pulled.

They came together in a collision that left Luke's head spinning and his bones aching. He knew his lightsaber had struck home because he smelled scorched flesh. The hilt was wobbling against his hand as Korelei struggled to free herself of the searing blade. He felt a palm press itself to his chest, so he brought his free hand up and grabbed her armя...яtoo late. His entire body sizzled into the joint-crushing grip of a Force lightning strike.

The agony seemed to last forever. Luke could feel his own flesh charring beneath the palm pressed to his chest; he was paralyzed by the lightning, unable to fight free or attack with a head-butt, or even flick his lightsaber blade and finish Korelei. He simply hung paralyzed, one hand clutching her arm, the other pressing the hilt to her chest, wondering how long it would take her to die.

A lot longer than Luke, apparently. Her free arm rose between them, pushing off to create some space. Then she twisted away, hurling him into the duct wall... and sliding off his lightsaber sideways. The act opened a gaping chasm in her torso.

The wound did not even slow her down. Leaving Luke to drop unharassed, she raced down the duct after Corran, who had taken out three of the shield generator's defenders and was using a flashing onslaught of lightsaber attacks to drive the fourth Sith back toward the exhaust port. By the time Luke hit the floor, she was halfway to the next stack-head, her shoulders pivoting awkwardly atop a wound that should have left her lying in a lifeless heap ten steps earlier.

Luke had no time to contemplate the source of her toughness. He could already hear boots pounding on the duct floor as her last two followers rushed to catch up. Still trembling with the aftereffects of her Force lightning, he spun himself around to look the way she had come and saw the pair approaching the nearest stack-head. Because of the duct's low height, their heads and shoulders were hunched over, so they looked more like a pair of baby rancors than Sith.

They must have believed Luke was still incapacitated, becaused they did not even cover each other as they leapt. Such arrogance. He waited until they were over the center of the pit, then waved a hand at the one on the left, using the Force to shove him into the one on the right. Both Sith slammed into the wall of the duct and dropped like stones, their arms flying forward as they tried to snag the edge. Luke flicked his hand in their direction, hitting them with a Force shove that rocked both men backward. They cried out in surprise-or perhaps it was anger-and vanished down the stack.

Showing that's in character:

Luke flicked a finger in Vestara's direction and sent her tumbling toward Taalon, who was limping across the floor toward Ben, one knee buckling every time he placed weight on it. Had the High Lord been at his best, he would simply have redirected the girl straight into Luke. Weakened as he was by his injury and his ongoing transformation, he barely managed to Force-jump over her-and that left him vulnerable.

Luke raised his lightsaber and grasped the Sith in the Force, intending to bring him tumbling into an ignited blade ... then felt something catch him across the ankles. He had no time to be astonished, barely even the nanosecond required to realize Abeloth had survived her fall into the cleft. He merely felt his feet shoot away and found himself dropping face-first.

Luke tucked his chin and managed to flip to his back before he hit the stone floor.

This same Abeloth (with even more damage incurred to her form) tanked a oneness blast from Ben. And this was after Darth Krayt started draining her in Beyond Shadows:


The Keshiri was trembling in agony. Greasy dark smoke was rising from a shoulder that had been so badly scorched it looked like a burned nerf roast. Her cheeks were hollow, her complexion was so wan it was pale blue, and her sunken eyes were rimmed in red.

But she was still standing, coming at them across the courtyard's mossy cobblestones.

Even knowing what the woman was, Ben could barely believe his eyes. Vestara had hit her with a bolt of Force lightning powerful enough to take out a Canderous-class hovertank. Still, the avatar had returned to her feet the instant Vestara had been carried too far away from the Font of Power to continue drawing on its power. And now Vestara was standing at his side, shaking even worse than the Keshiri, her complexion still shadowed by its dark energy, her eyes dulled by Force overload.

When the Keshiri snatched her lightsaber off its belt hook and ignited its crimson blade, Ben was almost relieved. It was such a mundane threat that it made him think perhaps Vestara's attack had driven out Abeloth after all-perhaps all they had to fight now was a simple Sith Lord.

Then the Keshiri spoke, and his hope evaporated. "We are done with patience," she said in a thousand voices. "Drink together-or die together."

Ben opened himself to the Force completely, shielding himself from the Font of Power's darkness by drawing its energies through the power of all he loved in the galaxy, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future-through his confidence in Vestara and the sure knowledge that she would soon join him in the ranks of the Jedi Knights. The Force came pouring into Ben from all sides, irresistible and pure, a flood of light and purpose that no being in the galaxy could deny. He felt himself become the Force, a swirl of power and energy, and he focused all that he was on the approaching Keshiri, hitting her with a Force blast that would have knocked a frigate out of orbit.

The blast caught the avatar square in the chest and rocked her shoulders back at least a couple of centimeters. She paused almost noticeably before she took her next step.

Ben staggered back, exhausted, and nearly fell before Vestara's hand clamped around his biceps. She pulled him to his feet and began to retreat, pulling him toward the cloud of steam still enveloping the Font of Power.

"So, Ben, what was that supposed to be?" she asked. "The power of the light side?"

"You didn't do much better," Ben replied. He pulled his arm free and stopped a few meters outside the steam. "And you were drawing on the font."

All of this is accomplished without Luke opening himself fully to the force. Which he was still able to do immediately after taking Abeloth point blanking blasting him to the chest with Lightning:

Apocalypse wrote:
Luke opened fire with his blaster, managing to burn several bolts into the Korelei-thing even at a distance of over thirty meters. Of course, they barely slowed her down.

Luke had to stop the Korelei-thing-he could not bring himself to even think her true name-or the Jedi's last hope of breaching the Temple would be lost. He opened himself to the Force completely, and the energy came flooding in so fast it seemed to lift him, to carry him down the duct on a raging river of power. When he began to gain on his quarry, he fired again, this time pouring so many bolts into her legs that one actually erupted in flame.

And it made no difference.

This thing-this entity-had powers almost beyond comprehension. But he was beginning to comprehend.

So yes, if Luke decides to force pull Valk into his blade, he is going for a ride, and considering Valk died to a saber placed in almost the same position as Luke hit Abeloth with, then he will also die. This is assuming Valk creates some sort of impenetrable barrier that extends to his whole front. Considering his hand was always where Arcann landed, and we saw the "effects" of in the clashes; it seems to extend somewhere around 2 or so feet around his hand. That means it's possible it could be snaked around without going behind his back. Think of it like Captain America's shield.


This isn't the best showing of Luke's but it does show his precision. He gets tired of Brakiss and beats him easily with a precise Saber cut.

Jedi Under Siege wrote:
He heard the battle continuing in the jungles and longed to get back to his trainees. The meeting with his former student had been no more than a distraction; it was leading nowhere. "This has gone on long enough, Brakiss. You may either surrender or I'll defeat you directly, because I have work to do. I need to get back to defending my Jedi academy."

Brakiss showed the faintest glimmer of uncertainty in his normally calm and peaceful eyes when Luke drove in, this time intending to win. Luke struck again with the lightsaber, always maintaining his focus and drive, not letting anger take control, doing only what he wished to do.

The Master of the Shadow Academy defended himself, and Luke saw his chance to strike. He altered his aim just slightly, not striking the energy blade itself. He could have swung lower to take off the hand of his former student, much as Darth Vader had cut off Luke's own hand-but Luke didn't want to maim Brakiss in such a way. He needed only to ruin his weapon.

His lightsaber struck across the top of Brakiss's handle, just below the terminus of the energy beam and above the knuckles of the grip. The top two centimeters of the spiked-claw end of Brakiss's lightsaber sprayed off, sheared away in a smoking, molten mass.

Brakiss shrieked and dropped his sparkling lightsaber to the ground, where it lay useless, smoldering, no longer a weapon, simply a hunk of components... none of which worked.

Brakiss manipulates Starfire from an actual star a year earlier with his own power and no Sith Meditation Sphere/Corsair. I know it's not 1-to-1 of Force Power and Saber correlation,  but it seems worthy of a mention considering we're wanking two people that just stood there watching Valk shoot lightning at them.


Gazing at the stormy suns, Brakiss raised his arms to each side, spreading his fingers. His silvery robe flowed around him as if knit from silken spiderwebs. He stared into the swirling flares of the Denarii Nova. "Observe, Zekk-and learn."

Closing his eyes, the Master of the Shadow Academy began to move his hands. Zekk watched through the observation port, his green eyes widening.

The ocean of rarefied incandescent gases between the dying stars started to swirl like arms of fire... writhing, changing shape, dancing in time with the hand motions Brakiss made. The dark teacher was manipulating the starfire itself!

He whispered to Zekk without opening his eyes, without observing the effect of his work. "The Force is in all things," Brakiss said, "from the smallest pebble to the largest star. This is just a glimmer of how Naga Sadow reached out to the stars and delivered a mortal wound five thousand years ago. "

"Could you make the sun explode?" Zekk asked in awe.

Brakiss opened his eyes and looked at his young student. His smooth, perfect forehead creased. "I don't know," he said. "And I don't believe I ever want to try."

Zekk remembered the way Brakiss has enticed him to experiment with his innate Jedi powers, by giving him a flarestick and showing how simple it was to draw shapes in the flames with the Force. Here in the Denarii Nova, Brakiss had done the same thing-only on a scale the size of a star system.

And here's a couple of feats Luke's accuracy, speed, and agility:

Luke grabbed Taalon in the Force and sent him sailing toward the door in a high arc. The snap-hiss of an igniting lightsaber confirmed that Ben understood what Luke intended. By the time Luke had his own weapon in hand, his son was Force-leaping into combat, his blue blade tracing an arc that an exhausted and weakened Taalon would be hard-pressed to avoid.

Thinking they might win this battle after all, Luke thumbed his own blade to life and spun to attack Abeloth-and that, of course, was when the crackle of Force lightning rang out from the door, where Vestara was standing. Ben cried out in surprise and anguish, then two distinct thuds sounded behind Luke, his son slamming into one wall and Taalon into another. A terrific pop echoed across the hall, and Taalon bellowed in pain.

Luke was already on Abeloth, launching a vicious thrust kick. She took it like a durasteel wall, then her arm flew up to rake at his eyes. Luke was ready, and his blade burned through the limb as though it were nutripaste.

"Luke!" The cry came in Akanah's voice, the terror unmistakable. "Don't! It's me! Akanah!"

Luke knew better than to believe her, even for a heartbeat. He continued his swing, sweeping the blade across at thigh level, and felt it slice into a leg. Abeloth shrieked in a dozen voices and spun away, falling toward the tiers of sunken seating. He used a Force nudge to send her arcing toward the cleft in the stage floor and lost sight of her against the glow of the magma.


The Sith had betrayed them. Vestara had used her injury to try to play on his feelings for her, to keep him out of the way while her father attacked his. Out of the corner of his eye, he could see Taalon and the other remaining Sith using the Force net technique-the technique Vestara had suggested-not to try to stifle Abeloth's powers, but to try to trap the now seriously struggling Abeloth, even as Luke was using his own mastery of the Force to destroy her. And it was with a fierce sense of pride and love that Ben realized that, despite the odds, his father was winning.

The net was working. It was starting to stifle her ability to use the Force. He could see it in the terror on Abeloth's face, feel it in the wild flickering of her Force aura. And Luke was fighting as Ben had never seen him before, pain and love and duty grim on his face, darting and leaping, moving his lightsaber so swiftly it was a blur. Ben let out a shout of delight and continued to press the attack on Gavar Khai, who no longer was smirking and gloating, but instead felt genuine concern that he might not make it out of this alive.

The Swarm War:

Determined to reach Lomi Plo before she drained his lightsaber's power cell, Luke sprang down the corridor and leapt off the carnage heap to attack. Lomi blocked his first pass with her white lightsaber. Then, in place of the purple lightsaber she had left in Jacen at the end of their last meeting, she ignited a familiar-looking green blade-the lightsaber Raynar had confiscated on Woteba. Luke's light-saber.

"Now you're just ticking me off," Luke said.

Lomi clacked her mandibles and hissed, then launched a deadly low-high-low combination with her flashing blades. Luke parried, ducked, and jumped, then brought an elbow up under her mandibles and sent her staggering back, all four arms flailing as she struggled to catch her balance on her mismatched legs.

Luke whipped his blade around, cocking it for a death slash across her middle-then had a prickle of danger sense between his shoulder blades and tried to spin away. He almost made it.

Something heavy and huge slammed into his shoulder-a shatter gun pellet?-and sent him tumbling across the floor past Lomi Plo's feet. He tried a reactionary slash as he rolled by, only to discover that was he was no longer holding his lightsaber, and he could not move his prosthetic hand-nor the rest of his arm.

Lomi Plo's two blades began to chop the floor behind him, so he used the Force to accelerate himself and continued to roll, then came to his feet two meters on the other side of her and called his lightsaber back to his good hand.

The weapon arrived just ahead of Lomi Plo, and suddenly Luke found himself on the defensive, being driven into a corner while Raynar Thul-not so impotent after all-used his other hand to fire more shatter gun pellets.

In lightsaber combat, Luke favored two-handed styles, but he could still fight single-handed-even with his weak hand-just as well as anyone in the academy. What he could not do, however, was fight wounded and weak-handed against twin blades while a second party fired a steady stream of hard-to-deflect shatter gun pellets at him. In short, Luke was desperate.

So he dropped to his side and caught Lomi Plo's human leg in a scissoring motion between his feet. The knee bent backward and popped with a sickening crunch.

She fell, squealing in pain and clacking her mandibles-and redoubled her attacks, slashing so ferociously with her twin blades that Luke's lone hand barely had the strength to block.

Of course, Control picked that moment for an important announcement from the Megador. "Be advised that three Killik swarms are diverting to attack Healing Star."

Lomi Plo's attacks slackened for a moment, and Luke realized that she was gently probing him through the Force, searching for any hint of fear or doubt. He put the Healing Star-the fleet's main hospital ship-out of his mind and remained focused on the fight. Lomi Plo had almost certainly used the Dark Nest to divert those swarms, to try to create an opening that would give her power over his mind.

Still dodging shatter gun pellets, rolling back and forth on the floor and parrying madly, Luke glanced up the corridor and used the Force to reach into the carnage heap beneath Raynar's feet. He grabbed the largest, heaviest thing he could find-a disabled bugcruncher droid-and jerked it free.

The pile shifted and Raynar crashed down on his back, but Luke barely noticed. He was pulling the droid down the corridor straight at Lomi Plo.

She deflected it easily, of course-but she had to spin away from Luke and wave a hand, and that gave him the chance he needed to Force-spring up the corridor toward Raynar, who was just returning to his feet.

"As I was saying," Luke said, pointing his lightsaber down at Raynar's chest. "You never learn."

Raynar's eyes flashed with alarm and he rolled away-presenting the side of his head for a perfect knockout blow. Luke brought his lightsaber down, but deactivated the blade and flipped it around at the last second to strike at the base of the ear.

The blow landed with a sharp crack that suggested a breaking skull, but Luke had no time to worry about Raynar. Lomi Plo was dragging herself out the hatchway, trying to escape into the general confusion of the Ackbar's recapture. He sprang after her, using the Force to drag her back into the corridor.

So yes, the idea that Luke just ineffectually flails at a barrier is ludicrous to me. If the shield is similar to a hand shield, then Luke is going to be darting in and out and attacking up and down to find an opening. Luke has no issues just dropping down and snapping legs as well, which should prove effective if Valk turtles behind a shield like that. More than likely he just rips Valk into a lightsaber and impales him, but I don't see why he can't bypass a shield without actually trying to break it as well.

Although a well-constructed post (credit where due), there are numerous problems in your "assumptions."

Not just you but a large number of people continue to confuse two distinct expressions of raw power of being the same (i.e. Dark Blast and Force Lightning respectively).

Please keep in mind that numerous applications of Tenebrae are likely to produce Force Lightning-type-effects, but distinctions are now possible (thanks in part to the data mining efforts of a source

To give you an idea:

Force Lightning icon for reference.

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Sithsorcerer

Dark Blast icon for reference.

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Lightningstrike

Below is one of the most powerful expressions of Force Lightning:

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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 6677946-9073646491-64629

Take a good look at its potency and reach; it could DISABLE FLEETS. Each stray bolt (one-shotted) a well-armed Starship while crossing its path. Please keep in mind that SMUGGLERS prefer to use well-armed and protected vessels much like military-grade ones (they do not compromise in these matters because they commit to some of the most risky and daring missions in the galaxy to make a living).

Lord Vindican, a Sith Inquisitor, unleashed a powerful stream of Force Lightning on a smuggler's Starship while it was in the hanger; said attack failed to disable that Starship, although Jace Malcom responded with a rocket launcher (one rocket struck Lord Vindican but he was able to mitigate and contain its explosive power). When some of the bolts were deflected towards the young Lord Malgus by Jedi Master Kao Cen Darach, the bolts incapacitated Lord Malgus for a while. And Lord Vindican's expression is next to nothing in comparison to Tenebrae's expression whose each stray bolt (one-shotted) a Starship of any size up there.

Even Revan (Reborn) was overwhelmed by an attack of similar intensity centuries earlier:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly
calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

If T3-M4 had not intervened in time, Tenebrae (Sith Emperor) would have COOKED Revan (Reborn) alive.

Revan (Reborn) is believed to be the most powerful Jedi Master until Yoda in his prime days.

Called "Sith Lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.

Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

Please keep in mind that Arcann is neither a Jedi and nor a Sith; he is of a different faction, and his talents and abilities were most likely unique to him. Same is true for his family members.

Arcann's ability to counter one of the most powerful expressions of Force Lightning is a remarkable talent and demonstration of raw power on his part, and this capability shall not be automatically attributed to any Jedi and Sith because failure of Revan (Reborn) is ample warning.

Revan (Reborn) successfully countered a charged expression of Force Lightning from a member of the Dark Council (i.e. Darth Nyriss), said expression of raw power was potent enough to incinerate/destroy both Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in one go, therefore, Revan (Reborn) is comfortably Yoda+ in this domain. Now; Meetra Surik is/was not an ordinary Jedi either, she defeated/killed powerful Darth Traya in single combat, and is also counted among the greatest of Jedi throughout history.


1. Starships of smugglers are expected to be well-armed and protected on average, even a powerful Force-user would find it very difficult to disable one.

2. Arcann is well-equipped to cope with the ultimate expressions of Force Lightning. Comparatively, even the most powerful Jedi Masters are not up to the task.

Another look at Force Lightning, from Palpatine:

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Star-Wars-Emperor-Force-Lightning

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 DeliriousPoisedAlaskanhusky-size_restricted

Below is Dark Blast:

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 SWTOR-Knights-of-the-Fallen-Empire-CHAPTER-1-The-Hunt-Light-Side-Jedi-Knight

"Valkorion destroyed my flesh, but not my reason of being." - Darth Marr (Sith spirit)

The GAME is not coded to show the true extent of damage done to Darth Marr but his statement is self-explanatory in its message (GAME VISUALS vs. LORE).

You 'accuse' Darth Marr of not mustering up a COUNTER in that moment but this is erroneous assumption on your part. Darth Marr was contending with the Knights of Zakuul just prior, and therefore, it is logical to assume that his PASSIVE DEFENSES were up throughout, but they didn't help.

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 4820395-6587832360-pL52t

Dark Blast is an esoteric expression of raw power (Fires a blast of telekinetic energy at the target) with Force Lightning added in the mix to augment its destructive properties. This expression of raw power seems to resemble a stream of Force Lightning in its form but it materialize and dissipate in a radically different manner since it is Telekinetic at its core. Dark Blast also materialize so fast that the subject is literally caught offguard by its ferocity in the process. You can notice that this application produce an EXPLOSIVE EFFECT while touching the subject and its residual energy dissipate a bit slowly in the end. Therefore, Darth Marr was dealing with an unfamiliar technique in this case.

Expanding on Darth Marr below

Tales spread through the Republic of the masked Dark Council member who routed whole armies and deflected assaults more thoroughly than any planetary shield.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia)

Darth Marr might be the most powerful Sith in existence at the time, he was holding the Empire together (de-facto Sith Emperor) and his strength had not fizzled out yet. WE see him dismissing Knights of Zakuul as if they were insignificant next to him whereas each Knight of Zakuul is more than a match for a well-trained Jedi Knight on his own, and the entire faction is credited for overwhelming both Jedi and Sith in the battlefields by both Jedi Master Satele Shan and Darth Marr (Sith spirit) in a conversation with The Outlander on Odessen. Darth Marr is no stranger to the mechanisms of Force Lightning (he is/was proficient in this area as well), and he demonstrated the capability to not only evade the bolts but also to absorb the effects of a bolt which struck him when he encouraged his former apprentice Darth Lachris to strike at him in order to gauge her abilities before dispatching her to Balmora:

The rage, always waiting in the pit of her stomach, stirred. Heat washed over her limbs and heart, loosening them for battle. Darth Lachris did not hesitate. Lightning danced through the muscles in her arm to burst from her fingertips. Marr tilted his head to miss the purple bolts. The sight of him fueled her hatred.

She charged, lightsaber cutting the air above her. Lachris’s roar swallowed all sound in the chamber. Darth Marr held his ground, stalwart against her attacks. Circling her master, she dashed in and out, slashing, searching for an opening. He gave her none.

Lachris prepared for another assault. Arms outstretched, electricity rained down on Marr. One bolt struck his leg, causing a momentary twitch. Immeasurable joy drummed within her. The Dark Council member held out his left hand. Lachris heard the sound of her skull crack against the wall before she felt it.

The blow threatened to quell her rage, cut off her power. Lachris refused to give him the satisfaction. She grimaced and pushed herself to stand. 'This isn’t over,' she snarled through clenched teeth. 'No.'

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Price of Power)

Now; Darth Lachris was a not an ordinary Sith either. Even an injury as serious as her skull being cracked at the hands of Darth Marr, was inconsequential to her and failed to hinder her abilities in any capacity, and she earned much renown for her exploits in the battlefield of Balmora and elsewhere. It took the mighty Barsen'thor and one of her allies to subdue Darth Lachris on Balmora.

It is just that Darth Marr was that strong in comparison to so many impressive Sith around him. He lasted 40+ years on a seat of the Dark Council due to his extraordinary command of the Dark Side in large part (his own exploits in the battlefields became the stuff of legends in the archives of the Republic). And many Sith chose him over Darth Malgus to lead the Empire in the absence of Tenebrae (Sith Emperor) which say a lot about his abilities. Darth Malgus is officially recognized as one of the most powerful Sith to have ever existed, and he is among the few whose talents and exploits impressed Palpatine. Remember that the infamous Force Storm (Wormhole) application is an EXTRAPOLATION of the impressive Force Maelstrom application which is/was one of the major talents of Darth Malgus whose knowledge reached Palpatine. Now; Darth Marr is blatantly stated to have abilities which are 'second-to-none' to that of any Sith in his time which imply that he is/was also one of the most powerful Sith to have ever existed by extension.

Let us also consider speed-potential of Darth Marr:

Marr approached her with slow, deliberate steps, hands resting on the small of his back. Her master never rushed, always maintained an appearance of control. 'I sense a similar hunger for power in you. Do not bother denying it.'

'I see no reason to.'

In an instant, he was gone. Her nostrils flared slightly as she tried to sense his presence.

'You believe you have earned that power, but you are mistaken,' his voice thundered behind her.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Price of Power)

You see that Darth Marr is/was capable of moving so fast that Darth Lachris had trouble sensing his very move, and she was fast enough to go toe-to-toe with the mighty Barsen'thor and one of her allies in a fight at a later stage.

Logically; Darth Marr is too fast for even a competent Force-user to notice his moves when he mean business, but this is IMPRACTICAL consideration while his battles are shown in the GAME (i.e. audience would not understand what is happening on-screen).

Intended point is that Darth Marr could be exchanging blows with the Knights of Zakuul at extreme speeds, but even he wasn't fast enough to EVADE a significant attack from Tenebrae (Valkorion) such as the Dark Blast.

Not only Darth Marr, but Arcann also failed to EVADE said application each time.

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 SWTOR-Knights-of-the-Fallen-Empire-CHAPTER-1-The-Hunt-Light-Side-Jedi-Knight-1

You see that Tenebrae (Valkorion) is able to unleash Force Blast while exchanging blows with another extremely capable Force-user, so fast that the subject is literally caught offguard by its ferocity in the process.

Expanding on Arcann below

Arcann was fast enough to contend with the likes of Hero of Tython (assuming he is chosen to represent The Outlander), and even outduel him. Hero of Tython is/was the most powerful Jedi of his era and also the Jedi Order's Battlemaster with HISTORY of outdueling some of the finest swordsmen of the Empire including Lord Praven who in turn was famous for outdueling one of the finest swordsmen in Jedi Master Usma during the Sacking of Coruscant, and two Sith Assassins who were fast enough to BLITZ a notable Jedi Master.

SCALING (speed; dueling skills; raw power):

Arcann above Hero of Tython above The Emperor's Wrath above Lord Praven above Jedi Master Usma above Sith Assassins who could BLITZ a notable Jedi Master

Logically; both Tenebrae (Valkorion) and Arcann should be too fast for even competent Force-users to visually observe, but the GAME is expected to show the PLAYERS what was happening on-screen. Therefore, many PLAYERS do not necessarily have a true measure of the sheer speed of these characters in mind while assessing them; this aspect is to be PERCEIVED in personal capacity by connecting relevant dots from the lore like I am doing in this post.

Arcann was able to cope with one of the most powerful expressions of Force Lightning:

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Arcann-tanking-Force-Lightning-Storm

- but when Tenebrae (Valkorion) switched to Dark Blast:

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 SWTOR-Knights-of-the-Fallen-Empire-CHAPTER-8-Taking-Flight-Sith-Warrior-Dark-Side-KOTFE-1

Arcann was once again overwhelmed...

Evidently, some of the fastest Force-users of the mythos were/are unable to react to Dark Blast any time.

Say hello to Luke Skywalker

Luke Skywalker is not expected to be familiar with the Dark Blast application either, and he is very likely to be caught offguard by its ferocity as well.

And when you are caught offguard:

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion - Page 2 Yoda-vs-Darth-Sidious-Fight-Scene-Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith-2005-Movie-Clip-4-K

- you are likely to loose, unless your opponent is FOOLISH enough to grant you the opportunity to recover and respond much like Palpatine.

Palpatidiot could end that fight right then and there but gave Yoda ample time to recover and respond (i.e. height of bad judgement, or arrogance). Ironically, he judged Yoda to be blinded by his arrogance earlier.

Given sheer raw power of Luke, and the fact that he could immobilize Darth Caedus as well as dominate UnuThul [when serious], he might be able to endure a blast (giving him the benefit of doubt here) but he will be disrupted and distracted enough for Tenebrae (Valkorion) to capitalize on the moment and subject him to another deadly attack until Luke is brought to his knees. Please keep in mind that Tenebrae (Valkorion) does not have shortage of options in offensive capacity.

Remember following example:

Meetra gasped and toppled forward, dead before she hit the floor. Revan’s head snapped to the side, shock and horror emanating from him even though his mask hid his expression. The distraction gave the Emperor the opportunity he needed, and he unleashed another blast of lightning into the Jedi’s chest.

Scourge could smell burning flesh as Revan screamed once then collapsed to the ground, unconscious.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

Tenebrae can be expected to capitalize on 'any' opening he may receive (or help create) in a fight to his advantage, and DICTATE the course of a battle in the aftermath. Tenebrae is not very keen on giving an opponent sufficient room to maneuver and counter him when he mean business.

Darth Caedus is utterly outclassed vis-à-vis Tenebrae (literally one-shot territory). UnuThul will do better in comparison but will not last long either.

As for Luke being able to breach Tenebrae's defenses literally designed to block each lightsaber blow, like how? Arcann was delivering powerful blows to him, to no avail. And Tenebrae created sufficient gap to neutralize Arcann with a Force Blast during the exchange.

One cannot breach a BARRIER with an attack to which it is designed to counter with laughable ease no matter what. For instance, you cannot breach a wall made of concrete with a standard bow, you will have to find another way and/or technique to breach it.



1. Tenebrae (Valkorion) is very likely to defeat Luke in an all-out fight.

2. I do not rule out the possibility of Luke bagging a WIN under favorable circumstances given the fact that he managed to ruin one avatar of Abeloth inside a cave while making the most out of his surroundings to his advantage in the proces. This much I am willing to admit in absolute fairness and considering all variables.

Although, I do not expect Tenebrae (Valkorion) to be as dense as Abeloth, and he might also attempt to make the most out of his surroundings to his advantage. So...

3. Luke is very likely to outduel Tenebrae (Valkorion) in a lightsaber duel. This much is understood in absolute fairness.

Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on May 29th 2020, 1:30 am; edited 2 times in total
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on May 29th 2020, 1:10 am
Luke, good to great fight.
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on May 29th 2020, 6:20 am
Luke great fight
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