Darth Zannah vs Darth Malak

I imagine there’s different levels of psychic invasion. What she did seems infinitely less invasive than what she has to do with a Malak, I don’t just think she has to break through one mental wall then she’s in the clear — there would be resistance every step of the way.

I don’t want to get car sick on this ride home so I’m going to head off for some hours. I’ll be back later to continue the discussion.

Have a safe ride.

We have Bastila being scaled to Kenobi and Tyranus, and both of them are far beyond Zannah. SF amped Malak > Malak >> Bastila =/= Obi Wan.

ILS wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

ILS wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:Malak’s resisted Malachor better than Kreia, Nathema better than the Exile, and the Star Forge better than Darth Revan.

You're confusing weakness and vulnerability.

It shows a baseline level of powering your will through extreme circumstances. Zannah already had decades of prior knowledge on Bane, and she would have to invade Malak’s inner psyche for information — only to be repelled by Malak’s greater willpower and power.

Does Zannah need prior knowledge? And does that even help? Maybe it helps with knowing what to look for, but you still need to penetrate the psyche to get in and dredge up the trauma. I'm sure Zannah has used these spells on people she knew little about. Look at Vol attacking Abeloth's delicate psyche as another example.

Bane's willpower feats are considerable, and despite ample preparation, study and an expectation of what Zannah would attack him with she was very effective. Malak has no knowledge of what Zannah brings to the table so I'm inclined to think it will work quite well on him. There's also the Tendrils, which I'm curious if Malak has an answer for.

Zannah was on an incredibly potent dark side nexus when she unleashed those tendrills.

This thread is on the Star Forge

IdrisianGraecus wrote:We have Bastila being scaled to Kenobi and Tyranus, and both of them are far beyond Zannah. SF amped Malak > Malak >> Bastila =/= Obi Wan.

Bastila being scaled to Kenobi and Tyranus is extremely wrong. Bastila is literally a fodder. Kenobi and Dooku would wreck base Malak also. Malak should be the least impressive antagonist in the Ancient Era. And Malak's Makashi cannot be near as good as Dooku's which Obi-Wan can match to a certain degree.

HellfireUnit wrote:

IdrisianGraecus wrote:We have Bastila being scaled to Kenobi and Tyranus, and both of them are far beyond Zannah. SF amped Malak > Malak >> Bastila =/= Obi Wan.

Bastila being scaled to Kenobi and Tyranus is extremely wrong. Bastila is literally a fodder. Kenobi and Dooku would wreck base Malak also. Malak should be the least impressive antagonist in the Ancient Era. And Malak's Makashi cannot be near as good as Dooku's which Obi-Wan can match to a certain degree.

I believe the “Bastila being scaled to Kenobi and Tyranus” is a reference to a Wizards of the Coast supplementary article to the Star Wars Miniatures game:

The quote doesn’t contradict anything, it’s canon. Bastila TK’s two massive doors, while giving Revan an extremely good fight at the same . There’s nothing fodder about her. While ridiculously pre prime, she manages to pull an enemy into a cage so hard that it opens fully, while also under the influence of a neural disruptor. Malak is in no way weak. He’s confirmed to be above Exar Kun, who while massively post prime manages to dominate post NJO Luke.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:The quote doesn’t contradict anything, it’s canon. Bastila TK’s two massive doors, while giving Revan an extremely good fight at the same . There’s nothing fodder about her. While ridiculously pre prime, she manages to pull an enemy into a cage so hard that it opens fully, while also under the influence of a neural disruptor. Malak is in no way weak. He’s confirmed to be above Exar Kun, who while massively post prime manages to dominate post NJO Luke.

The Wizards of the Coast quote about Bastila explicitly refers to her strength in the Star Wars Miniatures game, not the EU mythology. 

Since my mobile screenshot didn’t work... here’s the quote: 

In the Star Wars Miniatures Game, Bastila could be thought of as a second-tier Jedi. She's clearly not as capable as characters such as Mace Windu, Jedi Master; Yoda, Jedi Master; or Darth Vader, Jedi Hunter; but she's roughly on par with Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master or Darth Tyranus. Although her Defense and Attack are a bit low for a character of this cost, Triple Attack more than makes up for it. She also has Lightsaber Sweep and Lightsaber Deflect, again nicely fitting this second-tier niche.

Exar Kun never interacted with Luke in the New Jedi Order series, let alone after.

Miss typed, my bad. I meant Jedi Academy trilogy Luke.

You mean Star Forge Malak who was amped being superior to Exar Kun? That is debatable and Exar Kun would stomp base Malak. Also the TOR games alone have a complex place in canon let alone some miniatures game. Bastila's only notable power is her battle meditation. Even Carth mocks her and she is a conflicted and arrogant Jedi. And where does it say that Bastila was giving Revan a good fight?

NJO Exar Kun vs RotS Mara Jade Skywalker

No, regular Malak > Exar. The fight on Lehon and the star forge in KOTOR, that’s where.
Exar < Base Malak.

Who confirmed that? Even at the moment SF Malak being superior to Kun is debatable, I don't see how a far weaker Malak being Kun's superior.

I know that Wizards of the Coast said it, but I think Leland Chee might have. I’m on mobile at the moment, so can’t confirm, sorry.

DarthAnt66 wrote:I imagine there’s different levels of psychic invasion. What she did seems infinitely less invasive than what she has to do with a Malak, I don’t just think she has to break through one mental wall then she’s in the clear — there would be resistance every step of the way.

Can't Malak also resist force insanity according to the KOTOR campaign guide? Is this solid enough evidence to suggest he can resist Zannah's spells also?

Bro Zannah’s spells go beyond basic insanity

She’ll take every last thing in his mind 

Getting smacked by demagol

Getting his jaw sliced off

And it will hit him all at once

And it will eventually break him

Malak's willpower is formidable, but I'm not convinced it's greater than Bane's. And I don't remember it ever being hinted at that Bane opened up about his past traumas to Zannah, so I'm not sure where this familiarity point comes from. Not only is there no basis for it in the books to my memory, it would also make no sense for Bane to expose his weaknesses to his apprentice who he knows is going to try to kill him some day, especially when he knows Zannah has talent for sorcery. On the other hand, Bane had done his best to study Zannah's sorcery in preparation for the confrontation with her so he might best defend against it, so in reality Zannah was more disadvantaged than she was advantaged if we want to pull the familiarity card.

Malak is superior to Exar, who is superior to Black Fleet Luke, who is definitely above Vader, and maybe Tyranus, who per Banite scaling are superior to Zannah by a lot.

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:For instance, take how Malak froze mid-game Revan and Bastila with causal gestures despite both being some of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

Mid-game Revan barely begun to develop his powers and explore himself. Besides Bastila is a fodder to be honest.

Not true. Mid-game Revan was an unprecedented Force prodigy who killed so many Sith on Manaan he was basically put on trial for genocide.

And I may be mistaken, but I don’t think any material states Revan visited Korriban after the Malak, meaning you can scale Malak off of Revan’s army feat. Revan killed two terentatek (requires a team of Jedi per terentatek, and one of these terentatek had already killed the best Jedi hunter of the prior era), the two Academy Sith Masters, then the entire Sith Academy. Ergo, Revan fought from one end to the other, killing “hundreds” so throughly it’s said he literally drove the Sith Empire off Korriban outright.

Considering even prime Luke has some apprehension fighting many Sith just due to the growing probability one of the strikes land, that’s a wild feat for Revan. And Malak freezes him with gestures.

While Revan eradicated the forces of Malak, which is quite impressive actually, how he did it is unclear. As you know Revan had many followers, he is a strategic mastermind and is resourceful. Him defeating them should not be based on only his power alone and even if it was, it is unconfirmed and off-screen. And it is undeniable that Revan's power growth after Bastila's capture is huge so Malak being able to freeze Revan and Bastila isn't really impressive to me. Also planet order, etc. being not ordered makes it more confusing.

@hellfireunit: It's stated that Revan fought through the Academy from the start to the end personally. At best, Revan had a few companions with him, but most of them were on the Ebon Hawk a far ways away, and none of them were particularly known for their Force powers besides Bastila anyway.

Azronger wrote:Not only is there no basis for it in the books to my memory, it would also make no sense for Bane to expose his weaknesses to his apprentice who he knows is going to try to kill him some day, especially when he knows Zannah has talent for sorcery. On the other hand, Bane had done his best to study Zannah's sorcery in preparation for the confrontation with her so he might best defend against it, so in reality Zannah was more disadvantaged than she was advantaged if we want to pull the familiarity card.

I looked into that and you might be right. I'm not sure where the idea Zannah knew about Hurst and co. came from. Still, note that:

"Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will."

So, I wouldn't say Bane has any unique advantage going against Zannah's telepathy beyond the obvious. And, also consider:

"They were just figments of his imagination born from the repressed memories of his childhood, his greatest fears manifested in physical form. But he had conquered these fears long ago. He had turned his fear of his abusive father into anger and hate-the tools that had given him the strength to endure and eventually escape his life on Apatros. He knew how to defeat these demons, and he struck back. Unleashing a primal scream, he channeled his terror into pure rage and lashed out with the dark side. It tore through the swarm in a burst of searing violet light, utterly obliterating them."

This isn't exactly profound for any prominent Sith Lord. Most Sith draw from their past fears into anger as a source of strength. 

And I can't think of any unconquered usable trauma against Malak. For instance, Demagol tried to break Malak by brutally torturing and mutilating him but ultimately noted, "I cannot break him. He could leave today with little more than an elongated spine." Malak even cracked jokes with other prisoners immediately after his spine elongation, then later volunteered for more. Plus, Malak went on to pound the Mandalorians so utterly into the dirt they couldn't ever establish an Empire again. I don't see how reseeing Demagol or the Mandalorians again would phase him. Or, if Zannah flashed images of Revan cutting of his jaw, consider Malak spread Revan's asscheeks open on the Leviathan and that's the last time they would have fought within the context of this hypothetical, so that also seems like a "been there, done that" conquered trauma.

That's a good counter.

RIP Zannah.

What are Zannah's limits? Do we assume none? If someone has something they should regret, should she defeat them as well? Count Dooku for instance loses? KF Vader? Maul? Well, not Sheev because he's a monster... Yoda? GM Luke? Deep into LOTF Luke for sure, right?

If Malak were above or far above Bane in power but his willpower was somehow lower, would he be utterly useless here?

And how do we figure out willpower? Do they need to be one willpower point above Bane and they'll tank it? 2x Banes full of willpower? For example the tentacles; would they just need a lot of willpower to resist having their arm instantly disintegrated?

How do people judge her combat viability?