Darth Zannah vs Darth Malak

Battle takes place on the Star Forge. No captured Jedi for Malak.

Who wins?

Malak

Malak.

Malak.

Zannah.

Zannah

Malak annihilates.

Malak creams her.

I feel like Malak's psyche could be vulnerable enough to affect with sorcery. Zannah's use of soresu could likely give her the opening she needs to do that, considering she held off Bane who is an extremely adroit duelist. Not to mention Star Forge amped tendrils which she'll have access to in this thread.

@LSDMB care to weigh in?

Malak wins. Her mind powers won’t penetrate Malak’s psyche when Malak matched all of Darth Revan’s willpower feats and doesn’t show to carry any deep-rooted traumas besides not being Revan’s superior, he’s far more powerful than Darth Revan, Exar Kun, or Freedon Nadd, and yet he still foremost specializes as a warrior rather than the wizard-class.

For instance, take how Malak froze mid-game Revan and Bastila with causal gestures despite both being some of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

ILS wrote:I feel like Malak's psyche could be vulnerable enough to affect with sorcery. Zannah's use of soresu could likely give her the opening she needs to do that, considering she held off Bane who is an extremely adroit duelist. Not to mention Star Forge amped tendrils which she'll have access to in this thread.

@LSDMB care to weigh in?

Exactly what I was thinking. Zannah's sorcery should be enough to repel Malak and use of Soresu should help her getting overwhelmed. Unless Malak can resist her spells, he loses which I don't think he can resist to it. Malak's psychological profile appears to be real weak.

Malak’s resisted Malachor better than Kreia, Nathema better than the Exile, and the Star Forge better than Darth Revan.

HellfireUnit wrote:

ILS wrote:I feel like Malak's psyche could be vulnerable enough to affect with sorcery. Zannah's use of soresu could likely give her the opening she needs to do that, considering she held off Bane who is an extremely adroit duelist. Not to mention Star Forge amped tendrils which she'll have access to in this thread.

@LSDMB care to weigh in?

Exactly what I was thinking. Zannah's sorcery should be enough to repel Malak and use of Soresu should help her getting overwhelmed. Unless Malak can resist her spells, he loses which I don't think he can resist to it. Malak's psychological profile appears to be real weak.

 He doesn't strike me as the type to have resolved his life's traumas through a structured therapy program. I'm sure Zannah can play on some of Malak's experiences as a Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars, and him living in Revan's shadow. Guy is missing most of his jaw, definitely has problems.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Malak’s resisted Malachor better than Kreia, Nathema better than the Exile, and the Star Forge better than Darth Revan.

You're confusing weakness and vulnerability.

DarthAnt66 wrote:For instance, take how Malak froze mid-game Revan and Bastila with causal gestures despite both being some of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

Mid-game Revan barely begun to develop his powers and explore himself. Besides Bastila is a fodder to be honest.

ILS wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

ILS wrote:I feel like Malak's psyche could be vulnerable enough to affect with sorcery. Zannah's use of soresu could likely give her the opening she needs to do that, considering she held off Bane who is an extremely adroit duelist. Not to mention Star Forge amped tendrils which she'll have access to in this thread.

@LSDMB care to weigh in?

Exactly what I was thinking. Zannah's sorcery should be enough to repel Malak and use of Soresu should help her getting overwhelmed. Unless Malak can resist her spells, he loses which I don't think he can resist to it. Malak's psychological profile appears to be real weak.

 He doesn't strike me as the type to have resolved his life's traumas through a structured therapy program. I'm sure Zannah can play on some of Malak's experiences as a Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars, and him living in Revan's shadow. Guy is missing most of his jaw, definitely has problems.

Absolutely.

ILS wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:Malak’s resisted Malachor better than Kreia, Nathema better than the Exile, and the Star Forge better than Darth Revan.

You're confusing weakness and vulnerability.

It shows a baseline level of powering your will through extreme circumstances. Zannah already had decades of prior knowledge on Bane, and she would have to invade Malak’s inner psyche for information — only to be repelled by Malak’s greater willpower and power.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

ILS wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:Malak’s resisted Malachor better than Kreia, Nathema better than the Exile, and the Star Forge better than Darth Revan.

You're confusing weakness and vulnerability.

It shows a baseline level of powering your will through extreme circumstances. Zannah already had decades of prior knowledge on Bane, meaning she would have to invade his inner psyche for information — only to be repelled by Malak’s greater willpower and power.

Partially agree with that. Zannah having knowledge of Bane is a huge advantage but I don't see her not being able to reveal Malak's fears and traumas. Also Malak surely has greater power to some degree thanks SF but his will power is quite weak to be honest. Malak was pathetic.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

ILS wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:Malak’s resisted Malachor better than Kreia, Nathema better than the Exile, and the Star Forge better than Darth Revan.

You're confusing weakness and vulnerability.

It shows a baseline level of powering your will through extreme circumstances. Zannah already had decades of prior knowledge on Bane, and she would have to invade Malak’s inner psyche for information — only to be repelled by Malak’s greater willpower and power.

Does Zannah need prior knowledge? And does that even help? Maybe it helps with knowing what to look for, but you still need to penetrate the psyche to get in and dredge up the trauma. I'm sure Zannah has used these spells on people she knew little about. Look at Vol attacking Abeloth's delicate psyche as another example.

Bane's willpower feats are considerable, and despite ample preparation, study and an expectation of what Zannah would attack him with she was very effective. Malak has no knowledge of what Zannah brings to the table so I'm inclined to think it will work quite well on him. There's also the Tendrils, which I'm curious if Malak has an answer for.

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:For instance, take how Malak froze mid-game Revan and Bastila with causal gestures despite both being some of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

Mid-game Revan barely begun to develop his powers and explore himself. Besides Bastila is a fodder to be honest.

Not true. Mid-game Revan was an unprecedented Force prodigy who killed so many Sith on Manaan he was basically put on trial for genocide.

And I may be mistaken, but I don’t think any material states Revan visited Korriban after the Malak, meaning you can scale Malak off of Revan’s army feat. Revan killed two terentatek (requires a team of Jedi per terentatek, and one of these terentatek had already killed the best Jedi hunter of the prior era), the two Academy Sith Masters, then the entire Sith Academy. Ergo, Revan fought from one end to the other, killing “hundreds” so throughly it’s said he literally drove the Sith Empire off Korriban outright.

Considering even prime Luke has some apprehension fighting many Sith just due to the growing probability one of the strikes land, that’s a wild feat for Revan. And Malak freezes him with gestures.

ILS wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

ILS wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:Malak’s resisted Malachor better than Kreia, Nathema better than the Exile, and the Star Forge better than Darth Revan.

You're confusing weakness and vulnerability.

It shows a baseline level of powering your will through extreme circumstances. Zannah already had decades of prior knowledge on Bane, and she would have to invade Malak’s inner psyche for information — only to be repelled by Malak’s greater willpower and power.

Does Zannah need prior knowledge? And does that even help? Maybe it helps with knowing what to look for, but you still need to penetrate the psyche to get in and dredge up the trauma. I'm sure Zannah has used these spells on people she knew little about. Look at Vol attacking Abeloth's delicate psyche as another example.

Bane's willpower feats are considerable, and despite ample preparation, study and an expectation of what Zannah would attack him with she was very effective. Malak has no knowledge of what Zannah brings to the table so I'm inclined to think it will work quite well on him. There's also the Tendrils, which I'm curious if Malak has an answer for.

She doesn’t need prior knowledge, but if she doesn’t have prior knowledge she first has to force herself into Malak’s inner psyche to find those fears before she can ultilize them against Malak. Unless her TP operates totally differently from everyone else’s — which is possible, I just don’t recall the text framing it that way. 

The tendrils are interesting though, I agree. I’ll need to re-read the fight when I get home later tonight though.

Oh, and Vol both opened his mind to Abeloth and knew a super unique Force technique (starts with an m and I’m on mobile so I can’t grab it now) that allowed him to do what he did. I don’t think Zannah vs Malak would play out similarly.

Well even if you have prior knowledge, there's a difference between being like "OOoooh yeah Bane remember that time Hurst tore you a new asshole with his belt" and actually dredging up the memory for Bane to experience again. You need to be in there to do that either way. So she must have pierced his psyche.

I'm just spitballing based on what I remember which is why I'd like to see DMB chime in.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Oh, and Vol both opened his mind to Abeloth and knew a super unique Force technique (starts with an m and I’m on mobile so I can’t grab it now) that allowed him to do what he did. I don’t think Zannah vs Malak would play out similarly.

Mnemotherapy

DarthAnt66 wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:For instance, take how Malak froze mid-game Revan and Bastila with causal gestures despite both being some of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy.

Mid-game Revan barely begun to develop his powers and explore himself. Besides Bastila is a fodder to be honest.

Not true. Mid-game Revan was an unprecedented Force prodigy who killed so many Sith on Manaan he was basically put on trial for genocide.

And I may be mistaken, but I don’t think any material states Revan visited Korriban after the Malak, meaning you can scale Malak off of Revan’s army feat. Revan killed two terentatek (requires a team of Jedi per terentatek, and one of these terentatek had already killed the best Jedi hunter of the prior era), the two Academy Sith Masters, then the entire Sith Academy. Ergo, Revan fought from one end to the other, killing “hundreds” so throughly it’s said he literally drove the Sith Empire off Korriban outright.

Considering even prime Luke has some apprehension fighting many Sith just due to the growing probability one of the strikes land, that’s a wild feat for Revan. And Malak freezes him with gestures.

While Revan eradicated the forces of Malak, which is quite impressive actually, how he did it is unclear. As you know Revan had many followers, he is a strategic mastermind and is resourceful. Him defeating them should not be based on only his power alone and even if it was, it is unconfirmed and off-screen. And it is undeniable that Revan's power growth after Bastila's capture is huge so Malak being able to freeze Revan and Bastila isn't really impressive to me. Also planet order, etc. being not ordered makes it more confusing.