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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:29 am
Except you've provided literally nothing but baseless speculation. Nothing states that he had prep, nor does that make up for him being a weakened spirit, even if it were true. My point stands, if all you have is more of that then please don't waste my time.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:30 am
So you have no real argument then?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:33 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:Valkorion has always, and will always be Sheev’s inferior. I vote Palps.

Give me one feat Sheev has that compares to Ziost, which wasn't just the desolation of a surface in under thirty seconds but caused enormous damage to the point it ripped deep fissures across the planet and beyond that, caused actual damage to the core of the planet and causes massive magnetic shifts that caused orbit-wide power fluctuations that even affected the space station. The resulting residual energy of the dark side caused the creation of the Monoliths, pure dark side energy manifestations that are immortal and incomparably dangerous.

Once you have that down, congratulations you just managed to make Sheev ~ Spirit Vitiate who is << SWTOR!Vitiate.

Good luck.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:34 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:So you have no real argument then?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:40 am
You've provided absolutely no evidence for any of your claims, stop derailing the thread with cancer.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:51 am
Very strange child
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 9:43 am
Curry ragdolling
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 10:24 am
I don't know why I'm disappointed, PT brigade usually resorts to trolling in the face of real debate.
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 12:35 pm
I'll go with Sidious for now.
Gianfi
Gianfi

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 1:06 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:Valkorion has always, and will always be Sheev’s inferior. I vote Palps.

Give me one feat Sheev has that compares to Ziost, which wasn't just the desolation of a surface in under thirty seconds but caused enormous damage to the point it ripped deep fissures across the planet and beyond that, caused actual damage to the core of the planet and causes massive magnetic shifts that caused orbit-wide power fluctuations that even affected the space station. The resulting residual energy of the dark side caused the creation of the Monoliths, pure dark side energy manifestations that are immortal and incomparably dangerous.

Once you have that down, congratulations you just managed to make Sheev ~ Spirit Vitiate who is << SWTOR!Vitiate.

Good luck.
Sidious as of DE could create Force storm big enough to destroy fleets and without needing much preparation compared to Valky
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 2:28 pm
Sidious or Krayt, tbh. Could see an outside argument for Vitiate.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 5:22 pm
How are environmental feats the best way to gauge a character's power level relative to one another?

how can one say well X did this but Y can't do this, because we have never seen him do what X did?

You can't ascertain the full depths of Palpatine's raw primal fury, because he never used his power in the SAME WAY as Valk did.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 5:30 pm
Since some people have asked for an argument, i’ll give my opinion for why I chose Nyax: 
1- he has proven he can move faster then NJO Luke, likely placing him as the fastest among the suggested characters. 
2- given his primal ferocity and total lack of restraint, I think he should be able to kill Malgus just as easily as anyone else but more efficiently than either Palpatine or Valkorion.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:08 pm
@Gianfi wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:Valkorion has always, and will always be Sheev’s inferior. I vote Palps.

Give me one feat Sheev has that compares to Ziost, which wasn't just the desolation of a surface in under thirty seconds but caused enormous damage to the point it ripped deep fissures across the planet and beyond that, caused actual damage to the core of the planet and causes massive magnetic shifts that caused orbit-wide power fluctuations that even affected the space station. The resulting residual energy of the dark side caused the creation of the Monoliths, pure dark side energy manifestations that are immortal and incomparably dangerous.

Once you have that down, congratulations you just managed to make Sheev ~ Spirit Vitiate who is << SWTOR!Vitiate.

Good luck.
Sidious as of DE could create Force storm big enough to destroy fleets and without needing much preparation compared to Valky
Source for Vitiate's spirit needing prep?

Also, he did that too but only as a side effect of his assault on Arcann. There's no reason to believe Vitiate couldn't accomplish the same if he'd directed his power.

So no, not comparable to devastating an entire planet.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 8:25 pm
Sidious.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 9:35 pm
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Sidious or Krayt, tbh.

Can you justify that position? In terms of just conventional power Palpatine has Krayt outclassed.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Modern10

"Modern times" obviously encompasses the latest point in the timeline i.e. the Legacy era. Also note how practically every sentence in the Databank is written in past tense ("Over a century later, during the time of Roan Fel's empire, Darth Krayt was in possession of Andeddu's Holocron") except that one ("He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times").

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Modern11

Could see an outside argument for Vitiate.

I don't, but I'm curious what that argument would be. I hear @DarthAnt66 and @XSUPREMEXSKILLZ have been cooking up something, but you're free to give your own case as well if you have one.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 9:52 pm
Azronger wrote:
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:Sidious or Krayt, tbh.

Can you justify that position? In terms of just conventional power Palpatine has Krayt outclassed.

I've always held Sidious>Krayt but recently I've been reexamining that stance. Given that Luke bested Sidious fairly in DE, he grew significantly between DE and FotJ, Luke & Krayt's fight with Abeloth in FotJ strongly suggests parity (or at least near-parity) between the two, and Krayt grew substantially from FotJ to his prime, there's solid basis for a Krayt>Sidious argument there.

I don't, but I'm curious what that argument would be. I hear DarthAnt66 and XSUPREMEXSKILLZ have been cooking up something, but you're free to give your own case as well if you have one.

It essentially comes down to the fact that Valkorion is undeniably close to them in power. He can be argued to be above them due to Ziost and Vivicar scaling. I don't personally fully buy into that, but it does put Valk in their ballpark.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 9:55 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:Since some people have asked for an argument, i’ll give my opinion for why I chose Nyax: 
1- he has proven he can move faster then NJO Luke, likely placing him as the fastest among the suggested characters.

Quote? Was that in a physical fight or Force fight?

2- given his primal ferocity and total lack of restraint, I think he should be able to kill Malgus just as easily as anyone else but more efficiently than either Palpatine or Valkorion.

Pretty sure every contender for the number 2 spot is lacking restraint. And how is he able to kill Malgus "more efficiently" than those two? Palpatine, for example, can summon Force storms "with mere thought and inclination", so in theory, all he has to do is think, and one will appear in Malgus' location, killing him instantly.

_________________
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Sheev_sig_3
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 9th 2019, 10:05 pm
@PeraltaEagle45 wrote:I've always held Sidious>Krayt but recently I've been reexamining that stance. Given that Luke bested Sidious fairly in DE, he grew significantly between DE and FotJ, Luke & Krayt's fight with Abeloth in FotJ strongly suggests parity (or at least near-parity) between the two, and Krayt grew substantially from FotJ to his prime, there's solid basis for a Krayt>Sidious argument there.

Not really. The best you can argue for with that line of comparison is that Krayt can outduel Palpatine in a pure saber contest, but once more direct applications of the Force - Palpatine's forte - are involved, Krayt is factually inferior.

It essentially comes down to the fact that Valkorion is undeniably close to them in power. He can be argued to be above them due to Ziost and Vivicar scaling. I don't personally fully buy into that, but it does put Valk in their ballpark.

Why is he "undeniably" close to Palpatine in power? How do those two feats of his position Valkorion in the Emperor's league?
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 10th 2019, 9:57 am
Azronger wrote:Quote? Was that in a physical fight or Force fight?

It wasn’t a fight, at least not in that specific passage I mentioned, it was a chase between Luke’s team and Nyax. This makes the likelihood of him using his full speed (and by extension Luke using his full speed to keep up with him, especially considering that Luke sees Nyax as a very dangerous threat) all he more likely. But here is the quote: 


Lord Nyax led the three Jedi on a high-speed run through the ruins of Coruscant. He could travel faster than they could, because from time to time he’d simply leap from one building to the next one over, usually a leap too great for them to match. Yet they could always feel him in the distance, sense his movements, sense a feeling of expectation and even anxiety from him.
-Enemy Lines 2: Rebel Stand
The fact that it mentions “high speed” further supports my point. This obviously also applies to his force leap, which is greater than Luke’s own.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 10th 2019, 11:14 am
@MasterCilghal wrote:
Azronger wrote:Quote? Was that in a physical fight or Force fight?

It wasn’t a fight, at least not in that specific passage I mentioned, it was a chase between Luke’s team and Nyax. This makes the likelihood of him using his full speed (and by extension Luke using his full speed to keep up with him, especially considering that Luke sees Nyax as a very dangerous threat) all he more likely. But here is the quote: 


Lord Nyax led the three Jedi on a high-speed run through the ruins of Coruscant. He could travel faster than they could, because from time to time he’d simply leap from one building to the next one over, usually a leap too great for them to match. Yet they could always feel him in the distance, sense his movements, sense a feeling of expectation and even anxiety from him.
-Enemy Lines 2: Rebel Stand
The fact that it mentions “high speed” further supports my point. This obviously also applies to his force leap, which is greater than Luke’s own.

I don't know the context of the scene, but from my reading of what you've presented, the text attributes his greater speed to him jumping from building to building, the implication of course being that Luke and co. weren't doing the same. Coruscant is a labyrinthine ecumenopolis, so of course they'd move slower by running on the ground than by directly leaping from building to building like Nyax was doing. This doesn't prove Nyax is actually faster than Luke in a race on flat ground or in a combat situation.

I also saw no rebuttal to my point about the Force storms. As I see it, Nyax has no business winning here unless a more convincing argument can be formulated for him.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 10th 2019, 11:37 am
@Azronger the fact that Nyax can surpass Luke’s force leap indicates superior force augmentation as far as I know. The text makes clear neither Luke couldn’t nor any of his companions could replicate those force leaps. 

As for the force storm thing, I was having some issue with the formatting and I initially decided not to include it. Regardless, it is a fair point that might make me consider switching to Palpatine, not because of superior power, but because of the force storm’s efficiency.
Shioz
Shioz

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 10th 2019, 11:41 am
Sidious.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 10th 2019, 11:50 am
Yeah, I move to Palpatine, Azronger’s argument has convinced me. The debate about Nyax and Luke will be for another time.
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Quorian Debatist
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine

August 10th 2019, 4:47 pm
Azronger wrote:
@MasterCilghal wrote:Since some people have asked for an argument, i’ll give my opinion for why I chose Nyax: 
1- he has proven he can move faster then NJO Luke, likely placing him as the fastest among the suggested characters.

Quote? Was that in a physical fight or Force fight?

He was being observed while fighting Luke, Tahiri, Mara and 17 Vong to move faster than anything he'd ever seen. The only real attack landed on Nyax was Luke jump-stomping on his head trying to drive his head into his knee-saber. Couple that with moving faster than Luke that Cilghal posted, and it seems like Nyax is faster than Luke in running and fighting; which is a good combination when he has to fight Malgus.

Denua Ku wrote:"The pale thing fought with a savagery and speed unlike those of any warrior he had ever seen. And it was untrained. With his experienced warrior's eye, he could see that its movements were instinctive, a fact revealed in the creature's failure to throw effective combinations of blows, its inability to gauge which way its enemies would leap when it attacked them.

If it had been born Yuuzhan Vong, if he'd been able to train it for a year, even half a year, he could have turned this thing into the greatest warrior who was not himself a god. As it was, he'd have to kill this thing.

Even if the Jeedai, too, wanted it dead, it was still an abomination. And it was the greater threat. It had to die first. He threw his last razorbug, then lunged forward into hand-to-hand range, probing at the pale thing's back with the tail-tip of his amphistaff.

The pale thing spun, sending its knee blade toward Denua Ku's guts. He blocked the sweep with his amphistaff, but the impact was tremendous; it threw him back off his feet. He rolled backward and came upright, saw one of his warriors perform a similar probing assault... and this warrior took a forearm blade through the throat.

Nine Yuuzhan Vong warriors down. Sixteen to go. The numbers were becoming worse."


Narrow his entire focus into Malgus and it's very doubtful he lasts very long at all. Nyax is basically a super fast animal with 8 sabers that starts above 27 ABY Luke level. His skill might not be the greatest, but he's also fighting Malgus here who fights with Bioware animations.



Azronger wrote:Pretty sure every contender for the number 2 spot is lacking restraint. And how is he able to kill Malgus "more efficiently" than those two? Palpatine, for example, can summon Force storms "with mere thought and inclination", so in theory, all he has to do is think, and one will appear in Malgus' location, killing him instantly.

The context of that quote happened when it was previously talking about meditation. It's separating it from the implication meditation implies, but it doesn't mean it's instantaneous just because it's a power that can be used without rituals or meditation.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #2 - Palpatine - Page 2 E4ZuTqi



Think about this, what do you think will happen first in a quickdraw situation:

Sheev throwing lightning/force push

or

Sheev summoning a force storm

Any doubt those happen at the same time cast doubt on its instantaneous nature. I mean, the most powerful dark side ability taking more time than a basic attack would also be a logical assumption. The ease that Sheev can summon them is impressive, not that it's among the fastest attacks.


But that's not it, next we'll combine two mediums due to comics constraint to accurately convey time.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/64880/3526018-2721837233-26681.jpg

We'll notice in the first panel Sheev is glowing. Luke's speech starts at 2:26:14. Sheev starts talking at 2:26:22 where we hear rumblings. The Force Storm is revealed at 2:26:47.




Next, we'll go back to the comic:
"With Mounting Anguish, Luke and Leia watch the Emperor's rage take form, as a great storm of raw energy rends the fabric of space itself!"

This entire quote implies it's happening as they watch. So if we follow along with the timeframe, it takes 33-25 seconds to create the storm. If we assume Sheev starts glowing as Luke starts taking, and the rumblings are the storm forming, it takes 8 seconds to create the storm.  So we have somewhere between 8-33 seconds in a way that we can actually attempt to measure. I could also make note of Leia stating "He's creating another force storm," but I think we'll leave it at that.

I don't think this goes against the quote either, as it was still done with will and nudging in that direction while he was speaking. He did trigger it, but it didn't come into fruition until a smidge later.


---

For the top 3 here the fastest strategies imo are:

Sheev uses Force Scream, and the Sheev spin

Nyax runs at Malgus

Valk uses stasis and sabers Valk summons a planetary death wave that takes a long period of time. Because it's more important to note the full scope of his power, than his speed

There are other ways to take Malgus out, but these are the most guaranteed ways to cause deaths. Sheev and Nyax would be counting the milliseconds with that strat. I just think being faster than Luke and him being completely unique to Malgus would give him the edge,

If Palpatine can just fingerguns Force Storms out like lightning though, then he would win here most likely. I'm just not convinced of his speed with that though; especially in combination with the audiobook.


So my vote goes to Nyax.


Last edited by Quorian Debatist on August 10th 2019, 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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