Qui-Gon vs Kit Fisto

LOTL wrote:

Kilius wrote:Gillard's rankings in regards to the other characters are reliable because a large part of their current standings relative to one another is determined by their feats in the movies. Fisto's standing, on the other hand, is largely shaped by the EU, which I highly doubt Gillard or Lucas used to influence their depiction of the Nautolan. All he did in the movies was survive Geonosis and get promoted to the Jedi Council. It's understandable he wouldn't get a particularly high ranking relative to the main characters. Gillard himself is considered reliable not because he rankings are canon per se but because he worked closely with Lucas and actually wrote at least some of the fights. This doesn't apply to the EU where he has no part of. Fisto's feats are just better when all is taken into account. Jinn is superior to TPM Kenobi but not by an enormous amount. Kit Fisto is solidly superior to 36-year-old Kenobi.

34 year old Kenobi

Kilius wrote:

LOTL wrote:

Kilius wrote:Gillard's rankings in regards to the other characters are reliable because a large part of their current standings relative to one another is determined by their feats in the movies. Fisto's standing, on the other hand, is largely shaped by the EU, which I highly doubt Gillard or Lucas used to influence their depiction of the Nautolan. All he did in the movies was survive Geonosis and get promoted to the Jedi Council. It's understandable he wouldn't get a particularly high ranking relative to the main characters. Gillard himself is considered reliable not because he rankings are canon per se but because he worked closely with Lucas and actually wrote at least some of the fights. This doesn't apply to the EU where he has no part of. Fisto's feats are just better when all is taken into account. Jinn is superior to TPM Kenobi but not by an enormous amount. Kit Fisto is solidly superior to 36-year-old Kenobi.

34 year old Kenobi

Are you sure? Kenobi was 25 in TPM, AOTC takes place ten years later, and Cestus Deception is a year after that or if you go by TCW a few weeks in which case Kenobi would be 35, not 34.

LOTL wrote:Lol

Meatpants wrote:

LOTL wrote:Lol

I'm open to other ideas. I can see the spar showing that Fisto and Kenobi are still relatively close (as of that point). I definitely don't think Fisto was capable of stomping Kenobi in a serious combat situation though.

Kilius wrote:I'm still not really sold on this whole spars =/= live combat argument. Just because Jedi aren't fighting to kill(and at least one source confirms lightsabers have lower non-lethal power settings, so no reason to hold back out of fear of seriously injuring their partner) doesn't mean a spar can't serve as an adequate comparison of their skills. 

"Muh it's only a spar" is literally the only explanation ever given to discredit showings of parity or superiority. Going to need more than circular logic. We need examples or an argument stemming from logic to continue this argument.

Kilius wrote:I'm still not really sold on this whole spars =/= live combat argument. Just because Jedi aren't fighting to kill(and at least one source confirms lightsabers have lower non-lethal power settings, so no reason to hold back out of fear of seriously injuring their partner) doesn't mean a spar can't serve as an adequate comparison of their skills. 

"Muh it's only a spar" is literally the only explanation ever given to discredit showings of parity or superiority. Going to need more than circular logic. We need examples or an argument stemming from logic to continue this argument.

dark_globe wrote:

Kilius wrote:I'm still not really sold on this whole spars =/= live combat argument. Just because Jedi aren't fighting to kill(and at least one source confirms lightsabers have lower non-lethal power settings, so no reason to hold back out of fear of seriously injuring their partner) doesn't mean a spar can't serve as an adequate comparison of their skills. 

"Muh it's only a spar" is literally the only explanation ever given to discredit showings of parity or superiority. Going to need more than circular logic. We need examples or an argument stemming from logic to continue this argument.

this is a common knowledge and simple logic ( it is a human nature ) :
you just fight better when your life is on the line and your very existence depends on it .
for example in CS:GO i perform much better in real game when my competitive rank is on the line
than i do in practice/casual games .

in sparring sessions you try new things , you are not as focused and you just try to have fun
or you try to discover some new moves you could possibly add to your repertoir later .

in real fight / or game or whatever you just stick to moves and things you have already perfected in the past
and you are much more serious and focused .
you will not try some silly/fancy stuff in real fight in order to impress yourself or your opponent .
you just do what you are best at and try to get the job done / to win .


so no sparring matches could not be taken very seriously ,
unless you want to argue plo koon could beat yoda in a real fight ...

Kilius wrote:Fair points. I too am quite familiar with these contrasting experiences in gaming. That said, the case of Fisto vs Kenobi it's not the spar itself so much as the fact that Kenobi recognized immediately Fisto to be the superior swordsman and more to the point Fisto needing to hinder himself to keep things competitive. It was Fisto's technique and his physical ability that left such an indelible impression on Kenobi. Going back to real life I'm sure you can recognize someone as superior, be it sports or gaming, even if it's just practice or a friendly game.

Kilius wrote:In the case of Jinn vs Kenobi, it's actually pretty close to your "competitive performance" analogy. Kenobi wanted to prove himself to Jinn so he isn't messing around and Jinn likewise explicitly had to "concentrate hard to keep ahead of his padawan".  Both were clearly trying their hardest, pushing themselves, and taking it very seriously. If it had been like the Wild Space spar where Anakin and Obi-Wan were just putting on a show and having a good time I could see it being dismissed outright as evidence, but it clearly isn't the case, so I say it's still pretty damn good evidence Jinn and Kenobi were close at this point in time. Jinn's still better clearly, but he didn't need to hinder himself like Fisto to keep things competitive, so I say its strong evidence Fisto is above Jinn.

The Cestus Deception wrote:Obi-Wan's opponents had enthusiasm, but little technique. The Force blossomed within him, and time perception distended, slowing reality to a crawl. He had all the time he needed to slide out of the way of the blows, retaliating with perfect economy.
From the corner of his eye he saw that Kit had made his way almost to Ventress, and what he saw as the Nautolan increased his efforts almost broke Obi-Wan's concentration. His companion was a living, martial hurricane, his body moving in two and three directions at once, joints flexing, unlimited by human vertebral restraints.
Who he touched went down. And those who went down, stayed down. Ventress might have gathered a rabble, but the youthful X'Ting were fearless, and fought as if for their lives.
Such an onslaught left no time for thought or planning, no room for pretty moves. There was only attack and defense, and precious little time for defense.
Obi-Wan himself could only attack and attack, taking the battle to them, creating his own timing and distancing, smashing his way toward Ventress.
Stingers bared, the young X'Ting came at them in waves. Obi-Wan calmed himself, using them as shields against each other, moving continuously and ferociously as he went.
Now ... a blow from the upper left quadrant. Obi-Wan was just a hair slow defending there, and a wicked knife slit his cloak. Again and again, he narrowly skirted disaster. She's watching? Obi-Wan thought. Let her.
Obi-Wan missed the moment, but Kit finally won his way through to Ventress. She raised her hand, and the X'Ting who had harried the Nautolan turned to attack Obi-Wan, leaving her to face Kit alone.
Now, finally, Kit drew his lightsaber. Ventress drew a pair of blazing, red blades. She inclined her head, breathing more quickly, lips curling into a smile.
"Finally," she said.
"Your pleasure," Kit hissed, and went at her. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. The dance had substance but not form, a blur of light that seemed impossibly fast, unbelievably deadly. The two leapt and swerved, collided and bounced away. Single against double light-blades. Hands, knees, feet, all in a mind-numbing blur.
Obi-Wan would have given his right hand to join. Or even to watch such a display. But he had his own worries, his own battle to fight.
He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter the X'Ting. His enemies came on and on, struck quickly but clumsily, got in each other's way. Obi-Wan was direct in attack, and as elusive as a breeze.
He'd missed the engagement, but suddenly-Kit was down! Wounded and groggy from a kick in the jaw, for the first time Ventress had pierced his guard. Her left-hand saber sliced his arm but as sparks flew he dove away from her left blade, leaning into a glancing blow from her right.
Obi-Wan heard the scream but couldn't see the wound's severity. Kit rolled as Ventress came at him, splashing down into the lake. Ventress stood on the dock smiling hugely, arms and legs spread in triumph, laughing in that arctic voice.

Meatpants wrote:Jinn is a lot closer to Maul than I first suspected.