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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Empty Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights

September 24th 2023, 12:52 am
This is a post I made to Azronger discussing Revan's fight performances in Shadow of Revan. Sufficient context is provided by me and the snippets of Azronger's post in quotations that you can just start reading here. But note I'll periodically make references or appeals to Azronger that may go over your head. This was also originally written on Discord, so the formatting is a bit plain.

If this post is too long, please at least read the purple summary at the end of the thread. 

---

There's a lot of different arguments and kinds of arguments there, so let's go it. I will probably be re-editting sections as I go to fix the formatting.

There's maybe four different points here:
1. What is the correct way to interpret gameplay medium abstractions?
2. How do you correctly interpret Revan's Forgotten Terrace showings? incl. Where is spirit Revan?
3. What is Charles Boyd's likely position on Revan compared to the coalition strike team?
4. Stray points and methodology disagreements.

# 1.

(What is the correct way to interpret gameplay medium abstractions?)

> Why should it carry an intrinsic obligation for us to come up with an explanation to justify the gameplay from a story POV rather than simply accept the ragdoll moment as what it is: a way to diversify the combat experience. In essence, my argument boils down to Occam’s Razor: if A is a sufficient answer, why should we assume A + B when there is nothing anywhere stating Revan’s spirit was running interference?

Because the gameplay is more canon than you've ever given it credit to be.

Its canonicity derives from two sources:

1) Its status as S-Canon -- S-Canon meaning that the events are a part of Star Wars canon and continuity except it has no contest ability in places of contradiction and cannot subject future authors to its situation (e.g. if they someday hired a writer to do a novel Forgotten Terrace fight, he's beholden to the cutscenes but not the gameplay). The only other conditional offered for S-Canon content is that it can be rejected if it "defies Star Wars sensibilities." So, unless you think there's content contradicting Revan's feats (doesn't seem so? just you think there's insufficient evidence) or if you think it defies common sensibilities (you do a bit on the specific beats of the fight -- which I'll go through later. Otherwise, you're the one contrasting my interpretation of Revan's feats as Yoda-replicable but yours as Dooku-replicable, so beyond those specific beats it doesn't seem that you think any of this is defying much), then it follows we should treat the events quite seriously.

2) Its status as a reflection of author intent.

I already quoted you Boyd saying how Vaylin's gameplay abstraction show how she's able to lose in-lore to the Outlander. 

“For me, creating characters is all about personality, figuring out what motivates, amuses, or angers them. While there are occasionally game-specific concerns – how do they fight in combat, etc – finding their ‘voice’ in conversation and making them relatable to the players always comes first.”

And I finally found the quote where Boyd confirms that he was involved in how Revan fought in-combat gameplay wise. Note that this quote is from an interview about the Shadow of Revan expansion specifically, so Revan's the main guy he's referring to here.

I'm confused what more do you want?

Boyd says he is involved in the gameplay mechanics, he says to look at the gameplay mechanics to abstract the story reasons behind how the fights go down, and he specifically highlights how he was involved in creating how Revan fights gameplay wise...

If Boyd is involved in it, cares about it, and endorses its interpretation to figure out power-level dynamics --
-- then I'm going to conclude that it's consistent with Boyd's vision and valid to interpret to figure out power-level dynamics.

Quotes about why author intent are important:

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image0

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

Author intent is "considered" by Lucasfilm, is something chronicled in the Holocron when possible, is what Lucasfilm would look to to answer more specific questions otherwise unanswered in a source, and is "as official as it's going to get" in the absence of other content.

So it's the double-whammy:

Revan's gameplay mechanics is canon via S-Canon rules: nothing contradicts it, it doesn't defy sensibilities.
And Revan's gameplay mechanics is canon via the author intent rules above.

---

I also don't think the way you're approaching the distortion effects of the Forgotten Terrace makes much sense:

Even in the context of, say, Dark Emperor Palpatine versus Luke's duel in the comic, the actual moves that we see in the panels are plausibly not the "true canon" reality of that event. There's distortions by it being a comic, distortions by its dated publication, and distortions intrinsic to its C-Canon status. And so there's obviously a continuum of distortion and uncertainty:

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights 5395362-luke%20beats%20sidious

No distortion effects: Palpatine and Luke are trapped within 2D static comic panels with limited coloring. Palpatine swings with one hand at Luke. Luke blocks with two hands as he bends forward. Palpatine presses Luke against a wall as Leia stands 10 feet to the left of them. Luke breaks the lock as Palpatine points his lightsaber backward and Luke points it to the ground. Luke swings upward and disarms Palpatine with a powerful swing.

Then there's just this continuum of "fixing" the distortions --

x Free them from the 2D stasis and make them colorful 3D beings
x Maybe prolong the fight 
x Maybe even change the specific moves used in the fight

But I would submit, and I would think everyone would agree, that fundamentally changing the power-dynamic within a fight presentation would be among the most intrusive changes -- it'd be among the last things on the distortion continuum.

Since if you change the power-dynamic, then everything else changes by consequence. It's the "base reality" of the fight.

Likewise with SOR:

No distortion effects: Everyone is trapped in a low-CGI 3D game and only capable of doing one of twenty animation varieties. They can tank lightsaber blades at point blank and have a "health pool" that damage chips away from. When Revan's "health pool" hits 50%, he teleports to the middle, ragdolls everyone, and spins them around like fidget spinners. Besides the Outlander. The Outlander runs around the map absorbing orbs of power as Revan stands in the center and pounds the Outlander and the captive team with Force attacks. Eventually, the full team is released, and Revan continues fighting. Revan again does the same strategy with the same initial success and ultimate failure at 25% health. Throughout the fight, the team yells out varying lines -- sometimes multiple times -- highlighting how powerful Revan is and what a challenge this fight is. 

Again, there's this continuum of "fixing" the distortions. 

At some level of distortion, you fix the base gameplay mechanics like the health pools and lightsaber tanking.

At some later level of distortion, maybe you fix how the Outlander is literally running into materializing orbs of power. 

Etc.

Obviously, the precise distortion level is unknown. 

But take something like: "At least once during the fight, Revan flexes his vast Force powers to nearly overpower the coalition strike team. But the Outlander is able to resist and, with the help of unexplained power, free the captives."

Given what we know about Boyd x gameplay mechanics and S-Canon generally, I'd submit that this is a perfectly reasonable position to have. This position is neither contradicted nor breaks sensibilities and would be one Boyd is privy to and green-lit.

As you begin breaking this further down, you're beginning to *fundamentally changing the power-dynamic* within the fight. I'd say this is practically admitted by you. Take the most straight-forward, no distortion effects besides the most minimum gameplay fixing (e.g. "health pools" and non-lethal lightsabers) and you seem to think  the power-level dynamic is how Yoda would fight with those guys. Then apply your level of gameplay distortions and suddenly we're at Dooku-level. You've fundamentally changed the power-dynamic.

To your credit, you're not just doing it in a vacuum: you're critiquing the sensibilities of less distorted takes + invoking what Boyd is saying to inform that position. So again let's look through that. [hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on May 19th 2024, 8:23 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Empty Re: Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights

September 24th 2023, 12:53 am
# 2.

(How do you correctly interpret Revan's Forgotten Terrace showings?)

> That would be unprecedented - but also false considering Revan does toss everyone back in the intro cutscene to the fight, and during gameplay the antecedent attack to the ragdoll is him pulling everyone towards him (yet only the protag is unaffected by him then pushing everyone away from him and spinning them) - and make no sense at all. The protag isn’t even attacking Revan; they’re running around the arena freeing others from his grip. Are you saying spinning the rest of the team is so taxing that Revan doesn’t have enough juice left in him to pin one more adversary down? But even after the protag has freed one or more people, Revan doesn’t stop them from freeing any others, or try to regain his grip on them; he just stands still, letting everyone else do as they please, attacking only those remaining under his domination, until all of them are freed, and only then does he resume the fight normally.

Many points on this:

A) As I've argued for five years now, I don't think Revan necessarily "shatters" everyone's Force barriers to do the attack. Revan vanishes and teleports to a new location, catches everyone with their pants down, then slams them into walls. *That* part is more testament to Revan's vast combat *skill*. It's been repeatedly shown in sources like DB:ROT when Bane is briefly frozen in Force stasis or TFU when Vader Force grips SK that those captive can summon enough power to blast their way out. This is consistent with even Filoni-medium content like Rebels having Maul over-time straining to keep the Seventh Sister in a telekinetic hold: https://youtu.be/Mbld0O1Dj_g?t=128. Simply put, the longer you're exerting your Force powers over someone, the harder it is because they're gathering their energies to fight back. So, Revan's sustained hold is what is testament to Revan's vast *power*. 

Although I think Revan perhaps can shatter the Outlander's barrier if he like dumps the totality of his power against the Outlander, I don't think he can do so in this context. Revan's power is dispersed and the Outlander is now defending himself. Note I likewise don't think Sidious can just casually ragdoll Maul, nor (as we know) can tier 9 MFV casually ragdoll "enormously less powerful" tier 8 Kenobi. I vaguely recall you agreeing with me pointing out how the TCSWE plainly states the ratio for breaking a Force barrier is (A) several (B) powerful Force users over a (C) sustained period of time versus a (D) normal Force user. I think there's evidence that Revan versus Outlander fulfills that gap, but not while pinning down everyone else as well. 

Note that Revan is trying to eliminate the Outlander, lol. Revan is blasting him with Force attacks. But the Outlander is shielded when he absorbs the external power and otherwise is clearly formidable enough to stave Revan off long enough to free the others. 

B) After the Outlander frees people, they charge Revan and begin trying to break his invulnerable Force bubble. Of course Revan's success at downing the Outlander or restoring the Force destruction decreases as time goes on.

C) And that final point is not true. Revan spams Force blasts at every member, including those freed. Revan is not only attacking those he turned into fidget spinners while ignoring everyone else.

Video of Revan ripping big ones into the Outlander's face:

https://i.imgur.com/1kFPtyA

And also note how Revan is holding up an invincible barrier that can just tank Marr's lightsaber strikes while he still has Satele pinned.

> You argue “Revan is not dumping the totality of his powers to trap this strike team” and that he “still demonstrably has a fair amount of juice left in his tank after his failure to destroy the team in his Force Destruction event, so clearly he didn't empty the tank” but if this is indeed the case then I don’t think the English language is descriptive enough to convey how stupid that makes Revan look. He can even initiate the ragdolling a second time in the fight, yet again he doesn’t try to stop the protag from freeing the others or try to re-dominate them after they’re freed.

To summarize,

- Revan does try to stop the Outlander from freeing the others -- he literally beams giant attacks in his face. 

- As to why Revan doesn't just ragdoll him -- I don't think Revan can ragdoll *the Outlander* while -- per your own words -- he has two Mauls and other powerful foes turned into fidget spinners. I think that's beyond all the PT characters' abilities, too. Note I wouldn't even fully commit to the position that Revan can ragdoll the Outlander if he fought him alone -- such a feat seems far beyond the PT character abilities. 

- It's obviously harder to re-dominate them a second time given (A) the way he did it the first time was savvy with teleportation, (B) he just expended a lot of power dominating them the first time, (C) whoever is now freed is literally wailing at his defenses, (D) he's already using most of his power to try to keep-in-place everyone else and subdue the Outlander.

(Cont.) Where is Spirit Revan?:

> Regarding spirit Revan, the problem I have with your argument is that you're extrapolating spirit Revan's influence from his rather vague dialogue and nuggets of gameplay to things that have neither: there is no gameplay indication in either the Temple or Terrace fights that the spirit "is also probably exerting influence on the team and Revan." There is no "boon of the spirit" like when he resuscitates an incapacitated team member, or Satele's battle meditation amp doubling all your stats. And there is no dialogue on the Terrace either. Why? If the devs aren't shy about including dialogue and gameplay stats boosts when they want to, or even supposedly representing story elements like the Outlander's experience trumping Vaylin's power through the abstraction of gameplay, why don't they do so on the Terrace with Revan’s spirit if that's what was actually going on in the lore as you argue? Hypothetically, if I were to raise Revan to Yoda's level and someone asked me my reasoning, bringing before me these same critiques I have brought before you, I would feel disingenuous trying to cobble together an explanation: "Well there's not any proof but this other instance implies he's probably doing the same here, and this implies that, and this blue and red bubbles of course symbolize this, and..." Revan doing everything he can doesn't mean he can do anything more than what he is shown to do: lifting rocks, and (apparently) reviving the dead (is there any differentiation made between this and Satele healing "incapacitated" team members?). Perhaps his all his energy was spent here and he couldn’t help on the Terrace.

> As I see it, your case is predicated on the premise that gameplay is a literal representation of the true fight as it occurred in the story, but for that to stand you need to prove spirit Revan was actually involved and did the things you credit him with, or else Revan turns into a Jake/Ethan-filtered DE Palpatine-esque moronic caricature that doesn’t know how to apply his powers and consequently loses to vastly weaker opponents.

First, I want to remind my point that taking gameplay is not just a binary of whether it's a literal representation or not usable.

But as to whether spirit Revan is present in this fight --

The "gameplay facts" of the case are as follows:

- External Force power materializes/is bestowed during the battle
- The external Force power is available/granted to the Outlander singularly 
- The external Force power is uniquely Force aligned to counteract the power and alignment of Revan's power 
- The external Force power is described as "light side echoes" and "dark side fissures"
- The external Force power is necessary in order to defeat Revan

My case doesn't "hinge" on believing that spirit Revan fought.

My case merely "hinges" on recognition of an external power source that the coalition strike team's success was contingent on. 

If Charles Boyd and co. intended for the coalition strike team to just straight beat Revan, why did the main gameplay mechanic of the fight -- and the most complex gameplay mechanic basically ever introduced to the game -- hinge on the introduction of a foreign power-up that the player has to accept and successfully utilize to save everyone else? 

There's innumerable other gameplay mechanics that they could have done that would still be consistent with the coalition strike team just straight beating Revan. They chose to not do any of those and instead a really unique dynamic. 

Again, Charles Boyd says to look to the gameplay abstraction to see how characters lose. If we just look to the gameplay abstraction, the *immediate* and *biggest* reason why Revan loses is because external Force power is lent to the Outlander when all else is lost. I'm not going to ignore what's double-whammy canon, especially as ignoring it *fundamentally changes the power-dynamic*. 

It makes sense to me that this this external Force power is from spirit Revan. He was involved in the earlier fight, is clearly hovering around this current fight, has the "opposite alignment" dynamic to Revan going on, and fits best with the "light side echo" description. 

You point out: "Why isn't he explicitly present in this fight like the last time? We don't even hear him talk." Recall that the set-up for this fight is that spirit Revan tells the Outlander that Revan is fake and not the true Revan. (Spirit Revan continues to tell the Outlander that he's not the real Revan during the Temple of Sacrifice fight). The Outlander believes this, tells the coalition team this, and then walks up to Revan on the Forgotten Terrace accusing him of being a fraud. Revan takes off his mask and affirms that he is Revan. The Outlander is confused. The Outlander doesn't understand how that's possible until after the fight in which spirit Revan materializes and the Outlander realizes that there are two Revans. So, having spirit Revan talk during the fight is potentially revealing the final twist before it happens as it's revealing the two Revans exist simultaneously and are both Revan. 

But regardless, maybe it wasn't spirit Revan! Maybe the coalition fleet a couple miles away decided to meditate and manifest those energies. Maybe the ancient Sith and Jedi spirits lent the power. That much doesn't particularly matter. What matters is that it's clearly foreign, it's clearly a power-boost, and it's clearly the most crucial part off the fight. When you rebut with points like, "Maybe spirit Revan was exhausted after the last fight," that doesn't actually rebut what I'm saying since whether spirit Revan is present is independent from whether the team received external power aid.

Put another way, it's one thing to deny spirit Revan was present -- but it's another thing, and for many reasons explained indefensible, to argue that we should ignore the external power bestowment 

The latter is approaching the level of taking the DE Sidious vs Luke duel and saying the distortions are such that maybe Sidious actually outdueled Luke but Luke got really lucky with that final swing

x The coalition strike team gradually beat Revan down and defeated him
x The coalition strike team, their powers doubled, would have lost to Revan if not for external aid 

The distortion level to get from the latter to the former is extreme.

https://imgur.com/oFDGe2B

https://i.imgur.com/snNNaF2

> Indeed, not all non-Force-sensitives are equal. Even if the non-Force-using classes are supposed to scale to the Force-using classes to some degree, that doesn’t mean Theron Shan, Shae Vizla, or Jakarro are at that level, or anywhere close to it. Them, plus Lana Beniko, are what ultimately constitute the backup Marr, Satele, and the protagonist received, yet Revan fails to kill any of them. Even if we assume each of them to be worth one Lana, that’s still only four people in total who are so weak they can’t open a reinforced door (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oup9CV4W8eU). To get past this quagmire of non-Force-users vs. Force-users, perhaps I should rephrase my criticism to “Revan failed to kill even a single Lana.” Being extremely generous and scaling the Smuggler to Marr and Satele’s level, making his opposition effectively three Darth Mauls, that still wouldn’t make Revan a ROTS titan-class character in my eyes. Satele’s healing doesn’t mend a snapped neck, a crushed heart, or a severed head,

Satele's inclusion explains both this and the later Tenebrae fight (yes, going back to that, too)

1) Force healing

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

Satele's gameplay description in EOO actually implies she can actually do the things you're saying.

But as there's obvious differences between EOO and SOR, the point is more that Satele is by all rights the best practitioner of Force healing in SWTOR and maybe that we've ever seen. It's complimented alongside battle meditation as her main ability and "true power. In SOR, she's healing every member of the team at every second with lavish amounts of energy. As recognized, she revives incapacitated members. 

So, Satele's healing explains anything short of lethal injuries. That in tandem with 

2) Battle meditation

It's not just that Shan doubles the abilities of everyone present, albeit I don't recall you acknowledging even this -- ((If you think Marr and Satele are Maul standing, how does their power doubling get taken into account? If it doesn't, what's your reason? Is the distortion such that we're from explicit doubling to "little change"? The in-text description is "greatly increased." How good is a "greatly increased" Maul in your book?)) -- Shan is improving the "combat effectiveness" of everyone more specifically.

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

In other words, Satele's battle meditation should be facilitating very optimized teamplay. We already see this in DB:ROT where if one individual is vulnerable the other fills in the gap -- have that now elevated to perhaps the greatest Jedi battle meditation practitioner ever.

In practice, this means the collective pooling together to shore up vulnerabilities. Lana's neck is about to be snapped -- Marr and Satele counter-act. Theron is about to be stabbed -- the Outlander and Mandalore block it. So, by nature of the way the team fights, it's effortlessly plausible to imagine scenarios where they're all collectively straining entirely hard but no one is actually dying. It's built into the teamplay.

3) Just good team strategy

Marr takes Revan in close-quarters. Lana, Mandalore, Jakarro, and Theron attack Revan from afar, their attack effectiveness improved by Satele (e.g. it's easy to imagine how Han might have trouble getting a good shot in at Luke vs Sidious dueling, but if he's linked in with Luke via battle meditation from Leia that's a different story).This is the scripted environment of the fight. 

Obviously the Outlander is shown in all his cutscenes -- FU and NFU -- as fighting up-close in personal, so we can figure he's joining Marr as the other in Revan's face. The Outlander is coded to bring a companion along, and that member is either in the back or joining the melee team.

This strategy just means Revan is generally pinned fighting the best guys (double stat'd Marr and Hero). So, the opportunities to take on the weaker team-members isn't present. They're blasting Revan from 30 feet away while bathed in Satele's holy juices. 

> so the lack of lethal injuries (or any visible injuries in the post-fight cutscene, for that matter) in the weaklings of the team makes it hardly an excuse for Revan’s performance here.

Also note the lack of visible injuries in cutscene is infinitely more attributable to gameplay distortion than your points, lol. 

No character -- not even the defeated Revan -- is shown to have any injuries. Of course, no character has ever been updated post-fight with injuries. (I'm actually not even sure that's realistically possible given how they render in-game characters for cutscenes). 

On the continuum of gameplay distortion, something like this would be among the first things changed.

---

To summarize, Revan doesn't kill anyone (the seven soldiers he did kill aside) because:

A) Satele is capable of healing anything short of lethal injuries and even revives incapacitated (i.e. very, very injured) beings

B) Satele's battle meditation means the team can coordinate in ways that optimize prevention of lethal injuries

C) The team is scripted/confirmed to employ the most obvious strategy possible to prevent the weaker members from dying

Bonus: D) When Revan is explicitly about to kill most of the strike team, an external power source materializes and saves them!

---

Continuing a bit more briefly to just give examples of how (B) optimized teamplay and shoring up weakpoints results in a team of weaker individuals fighting a singular more powerful individual with simultaneously a lot of pressure but lower odds of fatalities:

Raskta was already back on her feet and flying through the air toward him. Bane spun and threw a wave of invisible dark side power at her. A Weapons Master was not skilled at defending against enemy Force attacks. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Farfalla not thrown up a shield to protect the Echani. Even so her muscular body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet.

Bane hurls a Force blast at Raskta that would have killed her. But a BM-enhanced Farfalla lends a Force barrier. Raskta is uninjured. 

Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

Bane hurls Force lightning at Farfalla that would have killed him. But a BM-enhanced Raskta intervenes and stops it. Farfalla is uninjured.

Even so, the strength behind the attack tore Farfalla's golden blade from his grip, sending his lightsaber skittering across the floor. Unarmed and helpless before his enemy, he was saved by Raskta.

Knowing that her lightsabers couldn't penetrate Bane's armor, she slid in from behind and scissor-kicked his legs out from under him. He toppled over backward, turning his fall into a roll that ended with him back on his feet. However, the distraction allowed Farfalla to look over and reach out with the Force, calling his weapon back into his hand.

Bane outduels Farfalla and is about to be executed but is saved by Raskta. Farfalla is uninjured.

Battle meditation required Master Worror's complete focus; there was no chance for him to mount any type of defense. If Bane cut him down, the others would lose the only advantage that gave them any chance of surviving the encounter.

Farfalla released the power he'd been gathering in a single concentrated burst. Bane was suddenly encased in a shimmering stasis field of light-side energy, freezing him where he stood. But his command of the dark side was too powerful for it to hold him for more than a split second. The shimmering field exploded into fragments as the Dark Lord broke free, though the momentary delay had allowed the Echani to place herself between the Ithorian and the Sith.

Raskta's blades hummed and sang as she engaged him again, determined to keep him from reaching Master Worror at all costs.

Farfalla stands back and charges a Force attack that pauses Bane and lets Raskta save Worror from being executed.

Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance.

The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.

BM-enhanced Raskta is so good that she's able to compliment the attacks of Rohun and Farfalla. Rohun alone is clumsy but Raskta shores him up, attacks the other direction, thrives off him being present.

The SOR strike team coordination should be this dialed to 11. You have a far greater BM practitioner facilitating the effectiveness and even pouring healing energy into everyone. You have more support. You have a more formidable direct fighter in Marr. And you have the Outlander. 

The teamplay in ROT counteracts almost half-a-dozen fatalities in short order. This team will do way better than that.

And to just speak briefly about the strength of the other participants --

- I'll speak to the NFUs like Mandalore, Theron Shan, and Jakarro later as we obviously have very different takes on NFUs. But to say the obvious for now, many Mandalores -- especially SWTOR-era Mandalores -- are put above even high-level Jedi and Sith. Even the Mandalore just prior to Shae is said to be far more formidable than the Jedi Battlemaster or armies of Jedi by the Grand Champion.

- With respect to Lana, I'm not sure how you're using that door feat against her, lol? It's a massive door by film medium standards. Anakin cant open a much smaller door at the start of LOE. We don't know how strong the Zakuul technology trying to force it together is. And Lana succeeds anyway. The only reference point is that chained Vaylin can rip it open -- and that feat is supposed to be among several displays of power by her in the episode to show her as the most powerful of Valkorion's children. Per what would even someone like Maul be able to do better?

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

She's never said to be weak. She's introduced as a Sith with "great wisdom and strength."

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

And she's said to be capable enough to scare both Imperial and Republic armies on Hoth into honoring a ceasefire after showing her skills.

Lana infamously even resists Vitiate's TP domination attempts on Ziost. Every other Sith on the planet falls under it. 
Of course, I think Maul would squish her in a one-versus-one -- but she takes a support role against Revan -- her scripted contribution is to stand far away and rain lightning storms on him -- and her powers are doubled by Satele.

Or let's just swap the wording found in ROT:

Lana was already back on her feet. Revan spun and threw a wave of invisible dark side power at her. Lana was not powerful enough to counter her enemy's Force attack. The impact of the wave would have plastered her against the wall and crushed her had Shan not thrown up a shield to protect the woman. Even so her sexy body was plucked from the air and hurtled backward, though she twisted and turned so she landed on her feet. Shan poured healing energies into her, soothing the strain on her body.

Last point on this before I switch to Boyd and just general NFU talk -- If Maul's powers literally went from 100% to 200%, I'd expect him to be better than Yoda. Marr + Outlander + everyone else's powers are doubled here. Even the most lowball of that is extremely good for Revan.

[hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on May 19th 2024, 8:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Empty Re: Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights

September 24th 2023, 12:55 am
# 3.

(What is Charles Boyd's likely position on Revan compared to the coalition strike team?)

Let's start with what Charles Boyd has directly written into the game --

Spirit Revan: It's within your power to stop the abomination. But you won't be able to do it alone.
The Outlander: Revan wants me to succeed, but claims I can't do it on my own.
---
Revan: You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me? / Your entire armies barely managed to drive me back. You think you'll be able to face me without them?
The Outlander (LS): The Force is not my only ally. / No soldier fights alone. / I have a feeling I'm not the only one who wants a crack at you.
---
The Outlander (DS): Last chance to give up.
Revan: Your warnings are meaningless to me. What I've become, you have no hope of stopping... I have the power--and you have nothing!
Darth Marr: You are wrong, Revan. He has powerful allies.
Satele Shan: Both Sith and Jedi.
Lana Beniko: Allies from all corners of the galaxy.
Jakarro: We have your back, Outlander!
Mandalore: Heard the fight to end all fights was going down. What sorry kind of Mando would I be if I missed out?
The Outlander (DS): You were saying?

Revan is one of a very small group of story characters that is explicitly more powerful than the player and the first (and one of three only, as far as I can recall) that is a story-mode boss fight but requires more than one other companion to face.

x Spirit Revan plainly states the Outlander cannot stop Revan alone. 
x Revan literally laughs out loud and mocks the LS Outlander thinking he can face him solo + one companion. He asks the Outlander what makes him think he can survive this battle at all. The Outlander does not refute this but instead explains he brought additional help. 
x Revan likewise laughs at the DS Outlander's threats and says the Outlander is "nothing" compared to him and that he "has the power." The coalition strike team interjects and clarifies the Outlander has something -- allies, Jedi and Sith, from everywhere. Which is to say they all collectively agree the Outlander doesn't have "the power" to fight Revan alone.

So, spirit Revan, Revan, the Outlander himself, and everyone else all outright acknowledge that there is a significant gap between Revan and the Outlander. Significant to the extent that fighting him alone is futile and mockery-worthy. What the Outlander has instead is the power of friendship.

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image0-40

Boyd is just stating the obvious here. 

(1) It is already well-accepted that just because you are an OPS boss fight, that doesn't mean you scale to being a threat to all 8 protagonists at once. There's many OPS boss fights where the boss is probably far weaker than half the members. Boyd provides the "example" to his "I wouldn't take that literally" as Jarg: just because Jarg fought the 8 protagonists and a Dread Master/Revan did doesn't mean they're both at the same level. That is, he's rejecting operations being accurate depictions of a character's power-level in that vein. 

(2) Likewise, Boyd says that you shouldn't "assume" a Dread Master/Revan are significantly more powerful than Malgus or Satele "just because one is an OPS boss and the other isn't"... and this is already well-accepted. Just because a Dread Master or Revan fought the 8 protagonists and Malgus or Satele didn't doesn't automatically ("just because") make them better. 

But Boyd never says nor implies that Revan isn't significantly more powerful than Malgus or Satele. He's just saying you can't "assume" that Revan is "just because" he's an OPS fight. Notice the question is asking about OPS fights generally but just provides Revan as an example.

Note that this is not even saying you can't analyze the gameplay mechanics of the OPS fight to try to extrapolate the true difficulty. It's just saying being an OPS fight in itself doesn't mean anything. Different OPS bosses have different levels of scripted domination over the protagonists.

Circling back to this, it's clear that Boyd does think Revan is significantly more powerful than Malgus or Satele given he clearly writes Revan as significantly more powerful than the Outlander within his very game.

And Boyd says the Outlander as of KOTFE Chapter 1 (basically SOR) is more powerful than Satele or Marr. Boyd also says the Outlander in Ziost stood up to Vitiate in a really legit way and impressed Vitiate in a way that only Revan, Vaylin, and Dramath had before. 

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image
Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

Boyd's general position is rather clearly: Vitiate > Revan > SOR Outlander > Marr/Shan/others.

With respect to these general points that "Revan didn't actually need an OPS fight to beat him -- they did that for drama reasons": 

A) It's one thing to include other characters for drama reasons, but it's another thing to have everyone dogpile the protagonist and say/admit/indicate that he stands no chance at beating Revan alone. That means obviously a strike team is legitimately needed to fight Revan.

B) They are already doing something initially without precedent and now only done for two other characters (Vaylin and Valkorion) by introducing NPCs to join you in battle. But they still decided to say that all the NPCs' powers are "greatly enhanced," they still had Revan ragdoll all the NPCs, and they still had an external power source save them rather than you. Meanwhile, if it's just for drama purposes, there's plenty of super-important characters given either solo final fights (Arcann) or four-party final fights (Darth Malgus) and none of all that.

C) Spirit Revan guides the team throughout the Temple of Sacrifice and says Revan is most difficult boss within. The Temple of Sacrifice gauntlet is: a Massassi king, two Revanite tanks, an omega terentatek, three Revanite commanders, then Revan. None of these bosses besides the omega terentatek is insinuated to be beyond any of the protagonist's individual abilities.

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Unknown

Charles says his concept for Revan, like Yoda, is to be a secondary character that "occassionally shows up and wrecks everyone."

Which is also similar to Backus' description of SOR at Star Wars Celebration alongside Boyd:

Michael Backus, lead designer of Star Wars The Old Republic wrote:"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

We shouldn't assume that Revan is significantly more powerful than Malgus or Satele just because he's an OPS fight and they aren't. Of course -- we don't need Boyd to tell us that. But the Outlander indeed can't stop Revan alone. In fact, Outlander doesn't stand a stance against Revan alone. Revan has the power and the Outlander doesn't -- but the Outlander does have the power of friendship... and doubled stats... and further external power sources. The premise of SOR is that Revan shows up and wrecks everyone. The premise of SOR is that Revan and Vitiate are in this struggle as two of the most powerful Force users ever and the Outlander is merely pulled into it.

---

And while, again, I agree that being an OPS fight in itself doesn't mean anything, there there are valid ways to glean information: 

1) Revan says the OPS team in the Temple of Sacrifice "barely managed" to drive him back and the Outlander doesn't rebut:

Revan: You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me?
The Outlander (LS): The Force is not my only ally.

2) Spirit Revan says he feared the Underlurker would beat the coalition strike team, then says Revan is even worse:

Spirit Revan when the team loses to the Underlurker specifically: I feared it would end this way. The galaxy is doomed.
Spirit Revan after the team defeats the Underlurker: You have prevailed, but it will only get worse, and I can only do so much. Be bold and endure.

3) Spirit Revan says he is doing everything he can to fight Revan and that he "hopes" it will be "enough," implying a very close fight:

Spirit Revan: I am with you. Be strong. I am doing all that I can.... I only hope this will be enough....

The team barely wins, spirit Revan is fearful of them losing, and spirit Revan hopes his full power contributions will just be enough.

This dialogue is C-Canon, too. 

So, to summarize:

- Boyd and the narrative around SOR clearly back Revan >> Outlander: Everyone within the game says Revan >> Outlander, they set up the game mechanics such that Revan >> Outlander, Boyd says Revan wrecked everyone, Backus acts like Revan is closer to Vitiate in power than the Outlander. And that's even despite Boyd thinking Outlander > the other guys.

- Boyd's OPS line is not actually saying anything new: obviously being an OPS boss in itself is not sufficient reason to conclude all OPS are of the same level or more powerful than any other individual being. But there are obviously canon-valid ways to check OPS scaling, like reviewing the C-Canon dialogue. The C-Canon dialogue confirms Revan gave a crazy fight to the OPS team.

- AND, AND, AND everything I wrote about in part 1 with respect to Boyd X Revan's gameplay mechanics.

[hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on May 19th 2024, 8:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Empty Re: Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights

September 24th 2023, 12:56 am
# 4.

(Other points, like comparisons with other fights and non-Force user mechanics)

x precedent set by Darth Malgus boss fight

For example, in the False Emperor fight with four players, Malgus chokes three and the fourth has to duel him by themselves; there’s even an on-screen pop-up in big red letters: “The time has come! [Player name] must face Malgus alone!” Yet if there’s three players, Malgus only chokes two; if there’s two, he chokes one; and in a solo fight he doesn’t choke you at all
 
Sorry but this point always irks me.

If you try to fight Malgus with anything less than four players, giant red text flashes on the screen saying "YOU ARE ENTERING A GROUP FLASHPOINT. A FULL GROUP IS RECOMMENDED." This stays on the screen for a solid thirty seconds between the two texts. 

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image
Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

The mechanics are built for a full-team. The discrepancies depending on the number of players is because they're not playing it how the mission was intended. It's really as simple as that. It doesn't mean the whole thing is bogus, lol. 

---

x precedent set by Tenebrae boss fight

I don't disagree with the points you made about Tenebrae, but I don't think they really address my point? 

My point is in that boss fight we literally have beings that I could potentially beat in a 1v1 on the field.

It's not a situation of disputing the power of Sith Lords or the top Republic agent in the galaxy, it's literal bare-bones trainees.

Yes, Tenebrae is invoking more of his power as the fight goes on. Yes, Tenebrae doesn't want to invoke more of his power than he needs to.

Of course note the latter is also generally applicable to Revan in both fights. Revan says he massively held back in the TOS fight, likely because he still has to fight Vitiate. Revan elects to "slowly destroy" the team members even when he has them in fidget spinners since he's "siphoning" them, and Revan still has to raze Yavin IV and fight Vitiate. It follows that Revan is only putting as much power to win since he needs the rest to fight a foe that he admits is vastly more powerful than anything in history.

And I suppose that should be an important side point in itself.

But it honestly feels like I'm partially being gaslit about my main point, lol .

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights ImageAnalysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

Who the hell is this guy, man???

A 4'6 morbidly obese, Lorenzo-insert who has been training to be a Jedi for two weeks survives. Note despite Tenebrae's restraint, he does ultimately invoke his deeper reserves multiple times and his deepest reserves at the end. Lorenzo is present for this fight, at the minimum tanks Tenebrae's FULL UNRESTRAINED POTENCY, then just stands back up again and T-poses (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ApKA95G4uIs). It's a great demonstration of the difficulty of killing even the weak links of team when Satele is facilitating battle meditation and healing energies and you have a host of legitimately strong players putting pressure on the foe and shoring up weaknesses. 

And note I wouldn't agree that Tenebrae just didn't try to kill Lorenzo. Even if he doesn't pose a direct threat, killing him would obviously deeply affect the morale of Satele who is leading the whole attack, if not some of the others as well. And literally just Tenebrae's distant farts should be able to kill Lorenzo. Lorenzo is able to T-Pose in victory foremost because of the power of friendship -- a power also present in the Revan fight. 

Lorenzo and his childhood buddies survive a battle with Valkorion and everyone understands why. A group of fighters that are all among the most formidable or legendary beings in the galaxy survives and some debaters are crippled with boundless confusion. 

And to even look past Lorenzo and friends, characters like Senya and Kira Carsen also survived the fight despite fighting in multiple stages.

I know you have Valkorion vaguely in the peak Palpatine class. The gap between peak Palpatine and Senya or Kira Carsen to you has to basically be limitless. Yet they fight him directly in his face. Reasons why they survive is the same as why Lorenzo or Lana Beniko survive. 

Vaylin can one-shot kill Senya even pre her final form and Valkorion is far beyond that, but she lives anyway.

---

x non-Force users

Yet we as a community draw lines between the power levels of the Force-using protagonists (e.g. Hero > Barsen’thor, Wrath > Nox), so to me we ought to apply that thinking here as well. If the protags vary in power, I see no reason to presume the Smuggler, for example, is somehow stronger than Nox, which he would have to be in order to resist telekinetic domination of a sort Marr, who is above Nox, failed to. Not to mention instances of non-Force-sensitives competing with Force-users tend to involve skill and tactics, e.g. keeping up the pressure with persistent blaster fire, but what you’re insinuating here is blanket immunity to telekinesis. That would be unprecedented - but also false considering Revan does toss everyone back in the intro cutscene to the fight, and during gameplay the antecedent attack to the ragdoll is him pulling everyone towards him (yet only the protag is unaffected by him then pushing everyone away from him and spinning them) - and make no sense at all.

Indeed, not all non-Force-sensitives are equal. Even if the non-Force-using classes are supposed to scale to the Force-using classes to some degree, that doesn’t mean Theron Shan, Shae Vizla, or Jakarro are at that level, or anywhere close to it. Them, plus Lana Beniko, are what ultimately constitute the backup Marr, Satele, and the protagonist received, yet Revan fails to kill any of them. Even if we assume each of them to be worth one Lana, that’s still only four people in total who are so weak they can’t open a reinforced door (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oup9CV4W8eU).

I think as a versus debating community, there's a lot of "incredulity" that non-Force users can pound-for-pound compete with Force users unless extreme circumstance are injected into the fight. But this position just doesn't extend to many Star Wars creators, perhaps foremost Boyd. 

The power of the weakest Outlander version -- the Smuggler -- in the eyes of SWTOR and Boyd:

1) The Smuggler is Valkorion's "most powerful opponent," which Boyd said to be binding as of those alive. So, the Smuggler is "more powerful" in an holistic sense than Darth Marr and Satele Shan as well as a young Arcann and Vaylin. 

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

2) The Smuggler defeats Vitiate possessing a Jedi Weaponsmaster on Ziost. This Jedi Weaponsmaster easily bested Lana and Theron individually. The Smuggler fights Vitiate alone in CQC and wins. Boyd says that the Smuggler really "stood up" to Vitiate and that because of this fight, Vitiate decides to entrap, study, manipulate, and corrupt the Smuggler because the Smuggler is "a legitimate threat to him."

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

It's worth emphasizing that Vitiate effortlessly ragdolls Theron directly before fighting the Smuggler:

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

But demonstrably can't do the same to the Smuggler as the Smuggler literally beats him.

3) There is little evidence that the Smuggler grows significantly between SOR and his first fight with Arcann. Most of his time is spent either in carbonite or recovering from carbonite freeze. His true growth happens afterwards once Valkorion imbues him with Force energy on Odessan. Let's break down his Arcann fight:

https://youtu.be/p_wXzeKnYFg?t=2021

Arcann is demonstrably unable to ragdoll the Smuggler once the Smuggler is ready for battle. Arcann opens with a TK ambush and throws the Smuggler across the room. The Smuggler collects himself and Arcann stops the attack and pulls out a lightsaber. There is zero evidence that Arcann desires victory purely by lightsaber -- he even tries to destroy the Smuggler again with Force powers in the next cutscene. Arcann simply cannot end the fight immediately against an on-guard Smuggler, i.e., the Smuggler can "tank" Arcann's powers. 

https://youtu.be/p_wXzeKnYFg?t=2157

Arcann is shown trying to throw objects to destroy the Smuggler, again showing his willingness to use the Force to win + further indication that he can't just use the Force directly. Arcann is also shown literally pressed/challenged by the Smuggler + HK's combined fire.

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

The next time Arcann successfully uses the Force on the Smuggler, the Smuggler's torso is completely open. This follows TCW/Rebels rules that TK attacks happen when the "chest" is exposed. That is, physical openings signal a deeper vulnerability at play. You get this in novels too where it says Maul's slightest stumble makes him vulnerable so Sidious can TK him. But it's the general rule in visual mediums and TOR follows it too. forget if we've talked about this before or not. I did a big post going through all the TCW/Rebels fights back on KMC about this. 

https://youtu.be/p_wXzeKnYFg?t=2183 

Lmao, I didn't realize this until now. And maybe you didn't either. But the Smuggler legitimately presses Arcann more than the Force using classes even do. Arcann is forced into a retreat by his blasterfire and even tagged. Arcann hurls a Force attack at the Smuggler who survives but is bent over. Arcann then uses that opening to throw him onto the ground.

Note I linked these videos at the precise time-stamp.

Takeaways:

- The Smuggler is plainly indexed as more powerful than the Grand Master or reigning Dark Lord of the Sith.

- Vitiate cannot successfully Force attack the Smuggler and loses to him in a CQC even despite Vitiate easily KOing Theron with TK.

- Arcann cannot mindlessly Force attack the Smuggler. He can only in certain moments. The Smuggler can legitimately pressure Arcann in CQC and tags him multiple times. The Smuggler even tanks his Force lightning point-blank and just gets bent over by it.

---
 
And then I also want to just extend that a bit further to some of the other non-Force users:

- Jakarro: A galactically renowned and "endlessly" experienced Wookiee. Wookiees have ridiclous base durability feats in Star Wars. I'd gladly compare their base feats with the feats of even named Force users flexing a Force barrier. And Jakarro isn't just a routine Wookiee but among the most legendary in the galaxy. And he's super-empowered by Satele.
 
- Theron Shan: Within SWTOR medium, technology shields can mitigate/black most Force attacks. Theron is the greatest spy in the Republic's history with tons of wacky gadgets, is not a Force user but still has Revan's blood (especially relevant later), would be the character foremost protected by Satele Shan, always is scripted to stay a distance from Revan, and calls many bombing runs on Revan.
 
https://youtu.be/UoWuVAXgHcU?t=1404

(For example, Theron is shown to have shield technology that can tank giant lighting charges that one-shot a large host of Sith and Imperials.)

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image
Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Image

- Mandalore: It's Mandalore. 😐 Although there's infinite examples to bring up here, the best is definitely Maul vs Pre Vizsla. It's stated at least three times -- including by Leland Chee -- that Maul went all-out and used all his powers against Vizsla. That is, Maul's lack of TK domination is because Maul couldn't TK dominate Vizsla. Of course, just because Shae and Pre are high-tier Mandalorians doesn't mean they're equals, but Shae is obviously among the most formidable non-Force users alive, and that point segways to what I really want to talk about --

---

but what you’re insinuating here is blanket immunity to telekinesis.

Blanket immunity, no. But non-Force users necessarily have immunity to TK same in consequence to Force users. 
It's true that just as much weaker Force users can put on pressure of stronger Force users to prevent them from having an opening to launch a TK attack, there are innumerable opportunities for Force users to TK non-Force users in virtually every fight ever shown.

For example, against Vitiate on Ziost, they draw out their weapons like old cowboys and both tell each-other they're going to win before the fight begins. Likewise, there are many "opportunities" for Arcann to TK the Smuggler -- but he doesn't "take" any of them. Once the element of surprise is gone, he is forced to engage in CQC besides moments animated to signal vulnerability, which is same in kind as with Force users. 

And if you run through all the other non-Force user fights -- Ulic vs Indomitable, Revan vs Ultimate, Mace/Kenobi vs Jango, infinite Jedi vs Cad Bane, Maul vs Pre, the way Caedus and Jaina fight Mandalorians in LOTF, etc., you'll find tons of "untaken openings" as well.

I submit two explanations for this:

1) Force of Will

Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Force_11

This "Force of Will" is introduced in the D6 sourcebooks for Force users. Basically, a character can tank internal Force attacks through sheer force of will. However, despite being introduced specifically for Force users, I see no reason why this can't extend to characters typically thought of as non-Force users. (A) It's often speculated that various top-tier non-Force users actually have low or latent Force sensitivity. For example, Han Solo and Grievous are confirmed to have low-level Force sensitivity in stats. Luke speculates on many occasion in the EU that Han is Force sensitive, as well. Chewbacca and Padme are explicitly confirmed in C-Canon content to be able to trained to Jedi Knighthood if they wished. It's not a stretch to figure this also extends to the Fetts and others. (B) There's no "difference in kind" between non-Force users and Force users. It's just a continuum with naming conventions after X or Y level of midichlorian count. We know many Force powers are performed involuntarily. In fact, all Jedi exhibit involuntary Force powers before they are found. It perfectly follows that those who still have midichlorians (i.e., everyone) but just below the threshold to be considered "Force-sensitive" could likewise perform involuntary Force powers like Force of Will. Notice the description says the power is "kept up" (i.e., it's just a passive thing that Force users have) and using it is "easy" generally.

Accepting that "Force of Will" applies to Force users explains why Arcann needs openings to use TK against the Smuggler. 

As well as just the general super-high correlation between non-Force users with strong willpower and those who can tangle with Jedi.

2) Genuine Force haxx 

Andy and I talk about this often on the other server -- I forget your thoughts on it, but I certainly don't think it's a joke. It's just something that must be accepted about the nature of the verse for virtually everyone medium besides TFU (which sort of singularly recognizes Boba Fett fighting Starkiller as a glass-cannon situation, and even that may just because it's Starkiller). 

Force Points represent a character's knack for using The Force to aid their actions. A character need not be Force-sensitive to use Force Points; they represent the presence of the Force in all forms of life, and though some call it luck, others believe that it is the will of The Force that grants a person aid.

For a Force-Sensitive character, it represents a conscious decision to call upon the Force for assistance. Characters without the Force Sensitivity feat don't realize that The Force is aiding their actions, only that they are trying hard to succeed.

This is from the Star Wars Roleplaying Game. It's repeated in most of them.

There is an explicit differentiation between using actual Force powers like Force lightning, TK, etc. and what they call "Force points."

Non-Force users can use Force points -- it's literally luck/ the will of the Force. Individuals have different levels from birth, and it scales to their exertion/sense of destiny in the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSNNav2eYwk

ANH with Han Solo not believing in the Force but being extremely lucky. Ben Kenobi explains there's no such thing as luck. Lucas' idea is Han is actually always using the thing that he doesn't believe. God is everywhere, even in the heart of the atheist.

It's just the Star Wars meta. Characters like Han Solo have supreme "luck." But "luck" isn't actually real in Star Wars. Luck is "the Force." This is explicitly said in the Core Rulebook but also just core Force mechanics from ANH generally. 

If you throw Han Solo against some Sith Lord, randomly the Sith Lord will slip on a banana peel and Han will get away. That's how that works. 

So the idea is -- as Andy has said, has the Core Rulebook allows, as ANH just yields as a consequence -- is that non-Force users with high favor from the Force effectively have this reality haxx that "blocks" or "prevents" Force users from using the Force against them in obvious and practical ways. Like almost a reality haxx TP where they forget that they can use TK against them. This explains a bunch of fights. 

---

So when we're dealing with these non-Force users overall:

- We do have the pressure dynamic that you mentioned. The Smuggler is shown to put Arcann under serious CQC pressure and even tag him. All these other guys are high-tier non-Force users as well. And I wouldn't equate Mandalore to a Lana.

- We should accept Force of Will, which especially seems clearly in play in SWTOR. This explains how the Smuggler is tanking Revan's Force attacks point-blank at stages of the fight. And how he's tanking Arcann's enraged lightning. The Smuggler is said by Valkorion to have willpower second to only him. A much later Smuggler is singularly able to shake off Valkorion's full potency TP attack for a brief period. The shoe fits.

- We should accept a Force meta haxx in which higher-tier non-Force users do unknowingly carry a Force reality warp ability.

These combined considerations seems to be why the Smuggler's explicitly the most powerful guy around and can do these crazy CQC fights. 

And these combined considerations plus the aforementioned points about BM + healing + teamplay + good strategy explains why the Smuggler or the others didn't die against Revan. 

A bit more on this: 


How does a Trooper hold his own against a Sith? Sure, the Trooper can be at a pretty severe disadvantage if he finds himself within melee range of a lightsaber-wielding maniac, but if a Trooper engages any other class on his own terms, he should have better-than-even odds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMMRZRsceUc

Charles Boyd directly says the Trooper beats Darth Nox in this interview, and he's explicitly talking about the literal characters.

Charles Boyd wrote:“I think the fantasy of the Trooper is about being yourself, only more. You’re a highly trained, elite fighting machine - unstoppable. If the Inquisitor and the Trooper get into a fight, the Inquisitor is eventually going to get tired -- swinging this lightsaber, shooting all this lightning. Trooper doesn't get tired. He just reloads."

So, to your point there are differences in clases (e.g. Nox vs Wrath), I agree. But Boyd is clearly not doing a FU >> NFU meta here. And if Boyd thinks the Trooper beats Nox, then what do you think his position on Mandalore would be, lol.

If we're going Boyd intent / Boydverse, which you wrote a lot about, Mandalore is definitely at least Councillor tier

https://youtu.be/WNgSSmgGM8Y?t=4308

Courtesy of @Vicious Madang, DS Outlander vs a high-ranking Mandalorian. The Mandalorian has a protracted back-and-forth duels with Outlander + literally forces the Outlander onto the ground for a bit + uses the Mandalorian armor to literally tank like 10 heavy lightsaber swings. Again just showing how much Boyd respects non-Force users and Mandalorians in particular. And I'm pretty sure this Mandalorian goes on to be stalemated/defeated by an elder Shae in CQC. [hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on May 19th 2024, 8:32 pm; edited 7 times in total
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Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights Empty Re: Analysis of SOR Revan's Boss Fights

September 24th 2023, 1:01 am
SUMMARY -- PART 1: GAMEPLAY METHODOLOGY

(1) The base position is accepting Revan's gameplay mechanics because:
(A) by virtue of being S-Canon, they are in-continuity unless they are contradicted by higher canon material (they aren't) or they defy sensibilities (they don't); that is, they provide information to what is otherwise unknown.
(B) author intent is considered, recorded in the Holocron when possible, looked to for guidance by officials, and as official as it gets on a subject unless contradicted by higher canon material. Charles Boyd has both said that he worked on developing Revan's gameplay mechanics and endorsed looking at other gameplay mechanics he created (i.e., Vaylin) to understand how enemies lose in the true lore.

(2) Gameplay mechanics, like all content besides the films, must be assessed on a continuum of medium distortions. The aforementioned power of S-Canon and author intent limit the possible distortion level. The maximum possible distortion level should be, and is otherwise always held to be, up to the point of fundamentally changing the power-dynamic of a fight. 
(Eg) Distorting "Revan fought a coalition strike team in which Satele Shan doubled the team's powers and combat abilities. Revan at least once flexed his vast Force powers and mastery to almost overpower the team. However, the Outlander was able to resist and, singularly thanks to a mysterious and external power bestowed into him, free the helpless captives. Revan was eventually beaten." into "Revan fought a coalition strike team but conventionally lost." is fundamentally changing the power-dynamic of a fight. 

SUMMARY -- PART 2: DETAILS OF THE FIGHT

Topic 1: What happened in the fight?

The in-game chronology of Revan's second boss fight is: They fight. Eventually, Revan teleports to the center of the arena and, simultaneously, Force pulls everyone to him. Then, he blasts everyone against pillars, holds them in suspension by either pure light or dark side energies, and slowly drains them. The Outlander, the most powerful of the team, resists the blast-back. Pure light and dark side energy materializes around the Outlander, which he absorbs and uses to free the team members. As this happens, Revan launches Force attacks at the Outlander. As the team members are freed, they attack Revan -- who is protected in a Force maelstrom protection bubble. 

Nothing about this defies sensibilities or even expectation. Note that Revan cannot shatter the Force barrier of the Outlander because Force barriers are established as extremely disproportionately effective and because he is exhausting most of his power dominating the rest of the team, which becomes more difficult as time goes on because of Force mechanics and the freed members are attacking Revan directly.

Topic 2: Was spirit Revan needed for the strike team to win -- or even present at all?

Although it is (very well-supported) speculation that spirit Revan joined the fight, it is not speculation that the Outlander had some external Force power aid (by whoever) that gave him the necessary power to free the team members. Without this external Force power, Revan would have undeniably won the fight.

Topic 3: Why did Revan not kill anyone in the fight?

Because of the following reasons working together:

(A) Satele provided insane Force healing that quickly healed all non-fatal wounds and possibly even fatal wounds.
(B) Satele's battle meditation greatly increased the combat effectiveness of the team, meaning the team could fight extremely well-coordinated and shore up each other's weaknesses. Darth Bane: Rule of Two gives many examples of how battle meditation-powered team members can save the weak links from lethal attacks, such as by blocking incoming lethal lightsaber swings and shielding another from lethal Force attacks. The book also states that a very skilled battle meditation-powered team member can synchronize with the weak link and turn them into a net positive.
(C) The team is scripted to fight with good strategy: Darth Marr fights Revan in CQC while Lana Beniko and the non-Force users attack from a distance. The Outlander likely also engages in CQC based on his fighting style in cutscenes. This strategy minimizes Revan's ability to directly fight the weaker team members. 
(D) Revan actually did kill over half-a-dozen Republic soldiers, and Revan would have killed the entire team if not for the aforementioned external Force power aid that saved everyone.

These reasons yield fight conditions where a team can be extremely pressed and even losing yet no one is dying. 

SUMMARY -- PART 3: AUTHOR INTENT

(1) Charles Boyd says that "just because" someone is an raid boss doesn't mean one should "assume" they are as powerful as other raid bosses or more powerful than those who are not raid bosses. That is, simply being a raid boss doesn't entail power implications. This is already accepted by everyone. However, independent of simply being a raid boss, Revan has strong, high canon evidence that he gave his raid strike team an extreme fight:
(A) Revan says the raid strike team "barely managed" to defeat him and the Outlander seems to agree.
(B) Spirit Revan says that he feared the raid strike team would lose to the Underlurker, then says Revan is worse
(C) Spirit Revan says mid-combat that he is doing all that he can to help the raid strike team fight Revan and only hopes that is enough to win, signaling a near-run contest. 
(Note to non-Azronger readers: This is referring to Revan's first boss fight: the Temple of Sacrifice. The previous summaries about external power sources and Lana Beniko are about his second boss fight: the Forgotten Terrace.

(2) Charles Boyd and his team clearly believe that Revan is far more powerful than the Outlander, making clear that Boyd's aforementioned comment about raid bosses isn't trying to imply that Revan is merely Satele Shan-level:
(A) Every character -- spirit Revan, Revan, the Outlander, Darth Marr, Satele Shan, etc., -- explicitly or in-effect acknowledges that the Outlander has no chance at defeating Revan alone. Charles Boyd wrote this into his script. This is despite Boyd believing that the Outlander is distinctively more powerful than Satele Shan or Darth Marr. 
(B) Charles Boyd says that he envisioned SOR Revan as a character that suddenly shows up and wrecks everyone. 
(C) Michael Backus implies the Outlander is an ant to Revan and that Revan is closer to Vitiate in power than the Outlander.
(D) Recall various aforementioned points, including Revan's legitimate contention with the stronger raid strike team and that Charles Boyd worked on Revan's dominant gameplay mechanics and endorsed looking at gameplay mechanics for lore insight. 

SUMMARY -- PART 4: MISCELLANEOUS

Topic 1: Comparisons to Darth Malgus

The reason the number of players that Darth Malgus can TK changes based on the total party size is that the boss is scripted for specifically four people. Fighting him with less than four yields unintended results. Besides, I am steadfast on my position that gameplay mechanics are usable as evidence unless they are contradicted by higher canon material or defy sensibilities. 

Topic 2: Comparisons to Tenebrae

No matter how you slice it, perhaps the most powerful being in history couldn't destroy a diabetes-infused Walmart cashier, despite having motive and invoking his full power, in significant part thanks to the power of strong healing, battle meditation, and team synergy. This example is an excellent case-study for the Revan fight. 

Topic 3: The Outlander as a non-Force user

The non-Force sensitive Outlander is just as formidable as the Force-sensitive Outlander by way of feats and intent. He's still explicitly more powerful Satele Shan and Darth Marr, he defeated the Vitiate-possessed Surro which Boyd praised as an impressive and legitimate contention, and he has a protracted fight with KOTFE Arcann in which he is pushing Arcann back under blaster-fire and tagging him multiple times, is unable to be Force-attacked for large swaths of the fight, and tanks direct Force attacks. Charles Boyd also says the Republic Trooper class would defeat Darth Nox and often has non-Force users compete with very powerful Force users in his writing, making clear his intent. 

Topic 4: Non-Force users in general

Within Star Wars and especially the Old Republic medium, non-Force users fighting Force users is common. Besides the non-Force users fighting Revan being galactically renowned and having either extreme durability (Jakarro), extreme shielding that works against Force attacks (Theron Shan), or both (Mandalore), there's other major factors. It's consistently demonstrated that non-Force users don't just resist being Force-attacked by putting pressure on the opponent; instead, a combination of a Force attack-blunting force of will mechanism and a canonically-backed "Force luck" or reality warp against Force attacks are also at play. This and all the reasons in Part 2, Topic 3 explain why the non-Force users did not die.
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