Exar Kun: The Resurrection in 1ABY

This blog will seek to supplement the Supreme Respect Thread of Exar Kun by explaining what happened and how he lost.

First let's explore where Exar Kun appeared. Exar Kun appears in a Heroic Encounter for the Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game which is set during the Galactic Civil War era and has its own unique storyline:

Q:Where did the idea for a TCG based on Star Wars Galaxies come from?
Joe Alread: People were really enjoying Legends of Norrath, really enjoying the game and the unique story that came from it. This gave us some incintive to branch out with Star Wars Galaxies. Champions of the Force is going to have its own unique story-line and raids, much like Legends of Norrath.

Q: What kind of story-line can we expect?
JA: You can expect, again, a very unique story-line. Unique to the Star Wars universe.

LINK: https://web.archive.org/web/20100803004357/http://www.massively.com/2008/07/16/e308-a-first-look-at-champions-of-the-force/

It's in this storyline that Exar Kun is resurrected and leads his restored Brotherhood of the Sith:



NOTE: For more information on this particular version of Exar Kun, see the Exar Kun Supreme Respect Thread where there is a section dedicated to it.

Exar Kun faced four of the player avatars and the armies(decks) they brought with them:




Exar Kun was defeated by the use of a Wall of Light:



But who are the four characters that led Kun's defeat? This is a character I have named myself as the Hero of the Rebellion, to realize how strong the Hero is, let's look at their greatest feat outside of facing Exar Kun, the Nightsister Kyrisa:

Star Wars Galaxies: Trading Card Game - The Nightsister's Revenge wrote:'This one is Kyrisa,' says Augwynne. 'She became such a threat to her own clan that they exiled her. She is perhaps the most dangerous of all.'

Star Wars Galaxies: Trading Card Game - The Nightsister's Revenge wrote:Following a fierce battle for leadership, the Nightsister clan of witches on Dathomir has banished one of their own, an extremely powerful Force sensitive named Kyrisa who has developed the ability to control the minds of beasts with the Force. At the orders of Clan Mother Gethzerion, Kyrisa was exiled from Dathomir and crash-landed on the planet Hoth. Enraged at her banishment, Kyrisa vowed revenge against Clan Mother Gethzerion and the Nightsisters. Taking refuge deep within the icy caverns on Hoth, she quickly took control of wampas creating a new pack of minions that she used to wreak havoc on both the Rebel and Imperial military forces on the surface of Hoth, stealing supplies necessary to help her return home to enact her revenge. Her abilities to manipulate the beasts is so complete that both Jedi and Sith want this knowledge, or at the very least to remove the Force-user as a threat to their objectives on the surface.

Kyrisa battled Gethzerion for leadership of the Nightsister Clan, as is stated above said battle was 'fierce':




But Kyrisa experienced a rebirth after being exiled to Hoth, fueled by a desire for revenge:

Star Wars Galaxies: Trading Card Game - The Nightsister's Revenge wrote:This latest set tells the tale of Kyrisa, an extremely powerful Force sensitive who can control the minds of beasts with the Force. Exiled by her own clan to the frozen planet of Hoth, Kyrisa's formidable mind and will is bent on revenge. Any who stand in her way will feel her fury in the teeth and claws of her Beast minions.

Kyrisa is defeated by the Hero and flees:

Star Wars Galaxies: Trading Card Game - The Nightsister's Revenge wrote:Players can pit their skills against Kyrisa, an exiled Nightsister witch who has been using her Force sensitivity to control the minds of wampas and wreak havoc on the Imperial and Rebel forces stationed on the icy planet of Hoth.

Star Wars Galaxies: Trading Card Game - The Nightsister's Revenge wrote:'My Maraki is gone,' says a woman's voice from behind you. You turn to look up the hill and see Kyrisa, the exiled Nightsister, standing on top. 'You have slain one of my children,' she says. Her red eyes flash and the tattooed streaks on her face contort with anger.
'I took shelter from the storm,' you say. 'The beasts attacked and I defended myself.'
'Enough of your lies!' she screams. At her side now are two fierce wampas. 'You invaded their home and murdered them!'
It's obvious she's going to attack any second. You ready your weapon as she says, 'You will die like all the humans on this planet! Hoth belongs to Kyrisa!' She throws her arms forward and her deadly menagerie attacks.
Kyrisa's beasts are well trained and fight to the death to defend her. Still, the battle turns against the exiled Nightsister and she jumps on the back of a hog to make her escape.
'Your fate is sealed!' she cries. 'I will find you again to exact my revenge!' Then she rides away into the swirling snow.

The Hero being able to defeat Kyrisa in such a fashion is very impressive given that she could face Gethzerion in a 'fierce battle' and survive, experience a rebirth and be believed to be perhaps even more dangerous than Charal or Gethzerion herself by Augwynne. Gethzerion is the infamous Nightsister whose power was such that Palpatine had Dathomir blockaded, and who may have defeated the Emperor if he'd attempted a direct confrontation:

Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Imperial forces constructed orbital shipyards and a penal colony on Dathomir's surface. But after Emperor Palpatine learned the power of the Nightsisters' leader, Gethzerion, he ordered all the prison's ships destroyed to prevent her from leaving the planet.

Leia Organa, The Courtship of Princess Leia wrote:"I believe the Emperor himself was afraid of the Nightsisters. That's why he interdicted this planet. Years ago, he started a nice little penal colony here, not knowing about the Nightsisters. When he learned about them, he blew the planet's airfield from orbit and stranded hundreds of his own people here, along with the prisoners, rather than risk letting Gethzerion escape. That's how frightened he was of Gethzerion."

So to go back to these quotes:




The resurrected Exar Kun is only defeated when four of these Heros and their armies unite against him using their collective power in a wall of light.

It seems really strange to me that we are assuming that the events of the Heroic Encounter in the card game are somehow unique from the events of the Heroic Encounter in the base game, even though Kun's minions in the card game are the same as in the base game. It becomes even more strange when you also consider that all the other Heroic Encounters from the other card packs are Heroic Encounters which also seemingly already happened in the base game (e.g. Battle of Nym's Factory Compound in Champions of the Force and Battle of Mos Espa in Squadrons Over Corellia).

Seems more reasonable to assume that the Heroic Encounters in the card game which are almost nearly identical to the Heroic Encounters in the base game are the same event, rather than two distinct events, no? The only real differences boiling down to the event being conveyed in different mediums.

I get that the first quote you posted might make it sound like the Heroic Encounter is its own unique story, but I think it's referring to the story mode missions (scenarios) which are their own separate game mode from the Heroic Encounters. Those I believe are actually unique and not something we see anywhere else outside the card game, unlike the Heroic Encounters.

There are numerous reasons why these battles against Exar Kun occur at different points in time. I think one of the most overt signs is that the timeline of these events is outlined for us. The Heroic Encounter in the main game occurs in 1ABY when Professor Cornelius Wagglehorn loses contact with a university team, which is possessed:




However, it is confirmed in the TCG event that the team has now been studying under Exar Kun for years:



Furthermore, the body of Exar Kun is confirmed to exist in the main game and is even shown to be active:

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:The mysteries of Exar Kun remain hidden even today as the evil buried there continues to seethe, waiting for a chance to rise once more… maybe sooner than expected.

His essence is present in the TCG:



His body being present in the TCG is likewise hinted at:



And once you get to him in the Throne Room in the TCG, he's there:



He is thus depicted repeatedly being in the flesh:




And his being physically present in the TCG is noted very clearly as well:




As opposed to in the main game where they state clearly he is a spirit:

'Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun' announcement, Star Wars Galaxies, LucasArts wrote:Hidden below the Temple of Exar Kun on Yavin 4 lays the tomb of this legendary Sith Lord. Exar Kun's spirit is so strong and malevolence so great, that he has withstood death for 4,000 years, waiting for an opportunity to finally obtain the godhood he so desires. A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

Not only that but his resurrection is incredibly consistent with the parameters set in the 1990s:

Exar Kun, Jedi Academy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:"I want your anger, Gantoris. I want you to open the doorways of power. I am barred from the physical plane--but with enough other Sith followers, I could be at peace. I could even live again."

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

He gains his nucleus of followers who even perform sacrifices for him:




But this also has a lot to do with what Exar Kun's state of being is, he is not merely your typical Sith spirit, he's an 'all-powerful' entity in incorporeal form who could have traversed the cosmos and devastated it due to the ritual, but he was then countered by the Jedi Order:





So Exar Kun is actually closer to say Tenebrae than say Karness Muur in terms of his status, he's transformed permanently into an entity, but he's lost most of his power, and even though the Jedi are unable to destroy him, he is still imprisoned by the wall of light and the city of the Jedi. Thus making the restoration of his power on his own impossible:

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:The Jedi launch a salvo of light side energy at the planet, trapping Kun's spirit there, but ravaging Yavin 4 in the process. Afterward, the Jedi built a city deep underground to nurture the world back to health and guarantee Kun never returns.

This state of godhood is also something recognised by Star Wars Galaxies:

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:Exar Kun's spirit is so strong and malevolence so great, that he has withstood death for 4,000 years, waiting for an opportunity to finally obtain the godhood he so desires.

So Exar Kun's resurrection is also merely supplementary to his rise in power back into a state where he as an entity has the energy he normally lacks to effect things with his incorporeal power.

“AncientPower, because of you, the Exar Kun wank will never die. You have earned the right to bear the mark of Champion of Exar Kun.”
Tom Veitch to AP(RIP)

LadyKulvax wrote:There are numerous reasons why these battles against Exar Kun occur at different points in time. I think one of the most overt signs is that the timeline of these events is outlined for us. The Heroic Encounter in the main game occurs in 1ABY when Professor Cornelius Wagglehorn loses contact with a university team, which is possessed:

However, it is confirmed in the TCG event that the team has now been studying under Exar Kun for years

So if I understand you correctly, you are trying to say that the team the Lingering Harmony guy was a part of went missing around the time of the base game. Therefore the events of the TCG must take place at a different time than the events of the base game, since the card mentions that Lingering Harmony has been studying under Exar Kun for years which in your opinion wouldn't mesh with his team having gone missing recently.

I think there are a few things wrong with this though:
1. Recently missing does not necessarily imply not serving Exar Kun until recently
2. Lingering Harmony team is not necessarily the same team Wagglehorn is referring to

The team Lingering Harmony was a part of could have been and likely was the team referenced in Walter Emanus's journal. The Lingering Harmony card even has a quote on it from Walter Emanus's writings in his journal. Emanus's team is distinct from the team that Wagglehorn is referring to. The team Wagglehorn is referring to was on Talus and was indoctrinated/killed by the Cult.

The order of events is something like this:

Walter Emanus's team excavates Kun's temple -> They get brainwashed by Kun's essence and start a cult -> They travel to Talus and indoctrinate/kill Wagglehorn's team -> Wagglehorn asks for your help finding the team -> You find the team dead/missing -> You track what's left of them and the cult to Yavin IV

You can view the quest with Wagglehorn here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-klS4ocSfnA

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As kind of a side note w.r.t Lingering Harmonry and something I already mentioned in my previous post, a large portion if not all of these minion cards are characters in the base game including Lingering Harmony as can be seen here in Kun's temple:


It seems way more reasonable to me to assume that he and the other minions are the same characters at the same time in the base game/TCG and not some new characters with the same name or the same characters but resurrected.

LadyKulvax wrote:
Furthermore, the body of Exar Kun is confirmed to exist in the main game and is even shown to be active:

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:The mysteries of Exar Kun remain hidden even today as the evil buried there continues to seethe, waiting for a chance to rise once more… maybe sooner than expected.

His essence is present in the TCG:



His body being present in the TCG is likewise hinted at:



And once you get to him in the Throne Room in the TCG, he's there:



He is thus depicted repeatedly being in the flesh:




And his being physically present in the TCG is noted very clearly as well:

Not a single solid piece of evidence here for Kun being alive in the flesh. Legit all of these quotes/scans mesh fine with Kun being a spirit. The fresco with Kun vs. the Twi'lek is definitely not something that happened during the base game and almost certainly not something that happened after the events of the base game (like in some new Kun Heroic Encounter in a trading card game). The depiction of a living Kun in that card also doesn't necessitate that Kun in the card game is alive either. Not convinced that it's anything beyond the authors of the game just wanting to make a cool looking card.

Also, note that the card depicting Kun getting WoL'd isn't even from the pack with the Kun Heroic Encounter. It's from the Shadow Syndicate pack. So almost certainly has nothing to do with the events of the TCG Heroic Encounter and is probably just a depiction of the events in TOTJ.

To do what you're trying to do right now, you're going to have to show that there is some type of key distinction--something damning enough to make it clear the Heroic Encounter in the base game and the Heroic Encounter in the card game depict two distinct events. So far I haven't seen any evidence to support that. Other stuff in your post isn't really relevant to the current discussion so not going to address it.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:There are numerous reasons why these battles against Exar Kun occur at different points in time. I think one of the most overt signs is that the timeline of these events is outlined for us. The Heroic Encounter in the main game occurs in 1ABY when Professor Cornelius Wagglehorn loses contact with a university team, which is possessed:

However, it is confirmed in the TCG event that the team has now been studying under Exar Kun for years

So if I understand you correctly, you are trying to say that the team the Lingering Harmony guy was a part of went missing around the time of the base game. Therefore the events of the TCG must take place at a different time than the events of the base game, since the card mentions that Lingering Harmony has been studying under Exar Kun for years which in your opinion wouldn't mesh with his team having gone missing recently.

I think there are a few things wrong with this though:
1. Recently missing does not necessarily imply not serving Exar Kun until recently
2. Lingering Harmony team is not necessarily the same team Wagglehorn is referring to

The team Lingering Harmony was a part of could have been and likely was the team referenced in Walter Emanus's journal. The Lingering Harmony card even has a quote on it from Walter Emanus's writings in his journal. Emanus's team is distinct from the team that Wagglehorn is referring to. The team Wagglehorn is referring to was on Talus and was indoctrinated/killed by the Cult.

The order of events is something like this:

Walter Emanus's team excavates Kun's temple -> They get brainwashed by Kun's essence and start a cult -> They travel to Talus and indoctrinate/kill Wagglehorn's team -> Wagglehorn asks for your help finding the team -> You find the team dead/missing -> You track what's left of them and the cult to Yavin IV

You can view the quest with Wagglehorn here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-klS4ocSfnA

----

As kind of a side note w.r.t Lingering Harmonry and something I already mentioned in my previous post, a large portion if not all of these minion cards are characters in the base game including Lingering Harmony as can be seen here in Kun's temple:


It seems way more reasonable to me to assume that he and the other minions are the same characters at the same time in the base game/TCG and not some new characters with the same name or the same characters but resurrected.

What's reasonable to you doesn't matter when the evidence provided to you proves you're wrong. We know when Kun was found and how, we know how the cult started and why it happened. Because we're told in the journal I already sent you.



They open the burial chamber and are possessed and then leave to recruit more members. This happens presently as the Chapter is released, it's literally written in present tense thrice as the next three sources show you:



And as is stated by the designer, if you'd bothered to actually watch the official video preview, they open the burial chamber as the chapter starts and players are recruited by the Professor when he loses contact with the team:


The Lingering Harmony and all the other members of the Cult are indeed members of this same team, as you'd know if you had bothered just reading the quotes provided to you:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

The cult are the archeologists and the archeologists are the cult, they're the ones he possessed. This is very clear and it happens at the start of Chapter 9.

The Lingering Harmony in the TCG is obviously not dead just as the other members aren't, as they're stated to have been with him for years until now. I'm quite sure they're the same people, just years later, bound to Kun.

This main game fight happens in 1ABY, we know it happens in 1ABY. But the TCG cards clearly have 'years' of studying under Exar Kun occur before facing this iteration of Lingering Harmony. Per the description in the Journal none of them are even aware that the spirit of Exar Kun was present in his burial chambers and their possession occurs without them even realising it until they're willing members of his cult.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
Furthermore, the body of Exar Kun is confirmed to exist in the main game and is even shown to be active:

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:The mysteries of Exar Kun remain hidden even today as the evil buried there continues to seethe, waiting for a chance to rise once more… maybe sooner than expected.

His essence is present in the TCG:



His body being present in the TCG is likewise hinted at:



And once you get to him in the Throne Room in the TCG, he's there:



He is thus depicted repeatedly being in the flesh:




And his being physically present in the TCG is noted very clearly as well:

Not a single solid piece of evidence here for Kun being alive in the flesh. Legit all of these quotes/scans mesh fine with Kun being a spirit. The fresco with Kun vs. the Twi'lek is definitely not something that happened during the base game and almost certainly not something that happened after the events of the base game (like in some new Kun Heroic Encounter in a trading card game).

Wrong again. Given the cult is in two of the other three art pieces, it's clearly something they created in reverence or tribute to him after witnessing him kill her:

Praxis wrote:The depiction of a living Kun in that card also doesn't necessitate that Kun in the card game is alive either. Not convinced that it's anything beyond the authors of the game just wanting to make a cool looking card.

Yes because they totally wouldn't depict his spirit despite doing so in the main game, the supporting artwork for the main game and having distinct depictions of Kun in spirit form in the TCG prior to this card appearing in the deck too. Every piece of art and media is set in the 'Star Wars Galaxies universe', that's how it works.

You've also handwaved every distinction they've made between the spirit of Kun(which is what they call it in every quote in the main game) and just 'Exar Kun' as they refer to him in the TCG which I've provided a great many scans for already.

Praxis wrote:Also, note that the card depicting Kun getting WoL'd isn't even from the pack with the Kun Heroic Encounter. It's from the Shadow Syndicate pack. So almost certainly has nothing to do with the events of the TCG Heroic Encounter and is probably just a depiction of the events in TOTJ.

This is a baseless assertion to jump to "it's TOTJ" when every other card in all of SWG:TCG is purely SWG:TCG relevant and that it's an ability you actively use in the game, in a deck that's released(Sept. 24, 2009) almost immediately after the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter is released(June 1, 2009).

Praxis wrote:To do what you're trying to do right now, you're going to have to show that there is some type of key distinction--something damning enough to make it clear the Heroic Encounter in the base game and the Heroic Encounter in the card game depict two distinct events. So far I haven't seen any evidence to support that.

The distinct, blatant dating I've had to explain to you twice now is already enough by itself. Though I can see why you'd miss that given the entire battle is structured differently.

LadyLobotomy wrote:
What's reasonable to you doesn't matter when the evidence provided to you proves you're wrong. We know when Kun was found and how, we know how the cult started and why it happened. Because we're told in the journal I already sent you.



They open the burial chamber and are possessed and then leave to recruit more members. This happens presently as the Chapter is released, it's literally written in present tense thrice as the next three sources show you:



And as is stated by the designer, if you'd bothered to actually watch the official video preview, they open the burial chamber as the chapter starts and players are recruited by the Professor when he loses contact with the team:


The Lingering Harmony and all the other members of the Cult are indeed members of this same team, as you'd know if you had bothered just reading the quotes provided to you:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

The cult are the archeologists and the archeologists are the cult, they're the ones he possessed. This is very clear and it happens at the start of Chapter 9.

The Lingering Harmony in the TCG is obviously not dead just as the other members aren't, as they're stated to have been with him for years until now. I'm quite sure they're the same people, just years later, bound to Kun.

This main game fight happens in 1ABY, we know it happens in 1ABY. But the TCG cards clearly have 'years' of studying under Exar Kun occur before facing this iteration of Lingering Harmony. Per the description in the Journal none of them are even aware that the spirit of Exar Kun was present in his burial chambers and their possession occurs without them even realising it until they're willing members of his cult.

???

Wat

Hard to really express how annoying this response is. Kinda just completely ignored what I said. It's ironic that you're accusing me of not going through the material when you clearly haven't yourself. What's also funny was how on Discord last night you made a quip about me not having read the journal you posted when I literally mentioned the contents of the journal in my post lmao. I get the feeling you either didn't really read my post or that you did but it just wasn't encoded into your brain.

I'll repeat what I said in my last post so that maybe you can hopefully digest the words I'm typing.

You proposed that the quote from the Lingering Harmony card which talks about having spent years training under Exar Kun doesn't fit with the timeline of events, and so this must mean that the card represents a character from a different set of events than the Heroic Encounter in the base game. But this just isn't a necessary or reasonable conclusion. If you knew the actual timeline of events this would be clear. So I'll post it once again:

Walter Emanus's team excavates Kun's temple -> They get brainwashed by Kun's essence and start a cult -> Some time passes and they travel to Talus and indoctrinate/kill Wagglehorn's team -> Wagglehorn asks for your help finding the team on Talus -> You find the team dead/missing and discover the Cult -> You track what's left of them to Yavin IV

This allows for the description of the card to match the events of the base game. The team Lingering Harmony was a part of could have been and likely was the team referenced in Walter Emanus's journal, which had been under Kun's influence for quite a long time before the game. Once again I ask you to watch the video I posted of the questline leading up to the Heroic Encounter which outlines this series of events.

LadyLobotomy wrote:
Wrong again. Given the cult is in two of the other three art pieces, it's clearly something they created in reverence or tribute to him after witnessing him kill her:

??????

Lmao wat. This legit made me chuckle ngl.

Ok so if I get what you're trying to say it's that Kun was alive sometime between the excavation and the Heroic Encounter? That just undermines the entire plot associated with Kun post-TOTJ lmfao. Did they find him, hang out with him for a bit, and then he just randomly died and so now they're trying to revive him? Is this what you think? Please tell me this isn't the case and that I'm misunderstanding you.

LadyLobotomy wrote:
You've also handwaved every distinction they've made between the spirit of Kun(which is what they call it in every quote in the main game) and just 'Exar Kun' as they refer to him in the TCG which I've provided a great many scans for already.

Tell me: if I called a square a rectangle then would you think that I mean it's a rectangle but definitely not a square? This is basically what you're saying here but just replace square with "spirit of Exar Kun" and rectangle with "Exar Kun". I can call a square a rectangle and that wouldn't exclude the possibility that I also think it's a square.

LadyLobotomy wrote:
Yes because they totally wouldn't depict his spirit despite doing so in the main game, the supporting artwork for the main game and having distinct depictions of Kun in spirit form in the TCG prior to this card appearing in the deck too. Every piece of art and media is set in the 'Star Wars Galaxies universe', that's how it works.

LadyLobotomy wrote:
This is a baseless assertion to jump to "it's TOTJ" when every other card in all of SWG:TCG is purely SWG:TCG relevant and that it's an ability you actively use in the game, in a deck that's released(Sept. 24, 2009) almost immediately after the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter is released(June 1, 2009).

Why are we assuming that this is the case? After doing a quick search I found this card:



Order 66 obviously doesn't happen in the game, since all of its events take place post-prequels. So there's a precedent for cards existing that don't depict events in the game. No reason to assume a card or the details in the card are necessarily representations of events in the game. Heck to go back to something from my last post, the quote on the Lingering Harmony card is from the base game. If there can exist a quote that acts as a reference to something from outside the TCG, then I see no reason the same can't be true for the art on the card.

LadyLobotomy wrote:
The distinct, blatant dating I've had to explain to you twice now is already enough by itself. Though I can see why you'd miss that given the entire battle is structured differently.

It's really not lmao. Legit has all the same characters and plotline. That's mostly why I think your stance is so goofy. Your stance is like roughly analogous to thinking all the Jedi survived in the Knightfall mission in Battlefront and then showed up again in the Knightfall mission in the ROTS game and that these two Knighfalls are actually different IU events.

------

As more of a meta point, I think your posts would really benefit from additional exposition. You post a few scans then make a vague statement about them without explaining how they tie together or how they convey the point you are trying to make. Your responses usually go something like this:

>Kun's body may exist in the coffin
>Kun was present at the battle
>Conclusion: Kun was fighting in the battle in the flesh

Like you need to explain how your quotes+propositions lead to your conclusions. I feel like not just in this discussion, but in a lot of discussions with you there is a phase after you post some scans and make a conclusion where we then have to tediously extract the details of how you got to that conclusion. And a lot of the time you get aggressive when we have to do this since somehow you don't get how someone can't read your mind and decrypt your train of thought. It's not that I didn't read what you posted, you just didn't explain it very coherently.

Praxis wrote:You proposed that the quote from the Lingering Harmony card which talks about having spent years training under Exar Kun doesn't fit with the timeline of events, and so this must mean that the card represents a character from a different set of events than the Heroic Encounter in the base game. But this just isn't a necessary or reasonable conclusion. If you knew the actual timeline of events this would be clear. So I'll post it once again:

Walter Emanus's team excavates Kun's temple -> They get brainwashed by Kun's essence and start a cult -> Some time passes and they travel to Talus and indoctrinate/kill Wagglehorn's team -> Wagglehorn asks for your help finding the team on Talus -> You find the team dead/missing and discover the Cult -> You track what's left of them to Yavin IV

This allows for the description of the card to match the events of the base game. The team Lingering Harmony was a part of could have been and likely was the team referenced in Walter Emanus's journal, which had been under Kun's influence for quite a long time before the game. Once again I ask you to watch the video I posted of the questline leading up to the Heroic Encounter which outlines this series of events.

I sincerely fail to see how you cannot realise that Walter Emanus and his team were not gone missing for years on end.

Yes, the people in this team, the people you fight in the main game and the people in the TCG are quite possibly the same ones still bound to Kun or new cult members taking on their mantles, as these are titles they have. They rank above the lower cultists.

These quotes are very explicit about the timeframes from which Emanus's excavations and subsequent possession take place:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

Dr. Walter Emanus's team goes dark upon being possessed and the Professor being concerned about this sends you to find out what happened. Walter Emanus and his team very clearly did not go dark years ago. You keep pointing to the in-game mission and the Talus portion as if this changes anything to do with the timeframe established here. It doesn't.

The card cannot fit within the timeframe provided in every description of the introduction of this chapter of SWG. This occurs at the start of Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun, meaning after Chapter 8: Star Destroyer. These are new Chapters for the game, with new stories, it's always present tense because the crisis involved has just occurred in this point of the Star Wars Galaxies storyline.

They even reference the main game event in the first deck with a Champions of the Force quest:



This also confirms that Luke and Walter Emanus met well after the battle of Yavin and the destruction of the Death Star, and given the entire storyline starts in 1ABY, this is precisely consistent with what I have been saying.

Ok so if I get what you're trying to say it's that Kun was alive sometime between the excavation and the Heroic Encounter? That just undermines the entire plot associated with Kun post-TOTJ lmfao. Did they find him, hang out with him for a bit, and then he just randomly died and so now they're trying to revive him? Is this what you think? Please tell me this isn't the case and that I'm misunderstanding you.

I find it funny how you frame an objective observation as some nonsensical claim. Perhaps that in place of a lack of an actual rebuttal? So, you think the paintings that have cultists in them were created prior to the cult even existing? Because this is ultimately what you're asserting by denying they were created by the cult. In one of these images, Exar Kun is clearly shown about to end the life of a Twi'lek Jedi personally. He's also in Cultist garb which is consist with him wearing a Cultist Robe in the game that looks exactly like all the others. What exactly happened with this incarnation of Exar Kun isn't certain, it may be that this is meant to represent him as he appears in the main game when his spiritual green face is seen hovering over his sarcophagus and then the form appears to battle you. Regardless, it's a valid depiction with in-game text affirming what it is.

Order 66 obviously doesn't happen in the game, since all of its events take place post-prequels.

Given that the deck this Sith ability card is from happens to be The Shadow Syndicate and that you fight Jedi as a Sith, as it's a Sith ability card, then actually this is perfectly in-line with the storyline this deck is in.

It's really not lmao. Legit has all the same characters and plotline. That's mostly why I think your stance is so goofy. Your stance is like roughly analogous to thinking all the Jedi survived in the Knightfall mission in Battlefront and then showed up again in the Knightfall mission in the ROTS game and that these two Knighfalls are actually different IU events.

The same titles, whether it's the same characters is neither here nor there. The plot is also clearly not the same given its a different set of characters going to stop Exar Kun in a different point of the timeline with references to the first event in the original release of the TCG game a year before the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter came out.

This is not that complicated.

LadyKulvax wrote:
Yes, the people in this team, the people you fight in the main game and the people in the TCG are quite possibly the same ones still bound to Kun or new cult members taking on their mantles, as these are titles they have. They rank above the lower cultists.

Or way more likely: they represent the same characters in the same event.

LadyKulvax wrote:
I sincerely fail to see how you cannot realise that Walter Emanus and his team were not gone missing for years on end.

Not even what I'm saying. I'm saying they have been serving Kun for years on end.

LadyKulvax wrote:
These quotes are very explicit about the timeframes from which Emanus's excavations and subsequent possession take place:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

These quotes don't provide any specific time frame for when they started worshipping Kun. I'm guessing the quote you keep referring to from the video is this:

SWG Dev wrote:In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb. A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost.

Let me break this down.

In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb.

Reading this I get how you would have the impression that this means the team of archaeologists were exploring at the beginning of chapter 9. But with additional context, we know that this isn't true. We know that this team killed Wagglehorn's team on Talus over a month prior to the beginning of chapter 9:



Additionally, whether you want to accept it or not, the Lingering Harmony card informs us that they had been in Kun's tomb years prior to the beginning of chapter 9.

A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost.

Wagglehorn grows concerned when the contact with the team on Yavin IV is lost AFTER you tell him that contact with the team has been lost. Prior to you helping him find his team on Talus, he did not know the status of the team on Yavin IV. He wasn't keeping tabs on them. When you get to Yavin IV you find out from Rebel forces that the excavation team on Yavin IV has been dark for months:



Wagglehorn had no awareness of the team on Yavin going dark before this.

And once again, to reiterate a point from one of my previous posts, just because they went dark at a certain point DOES NOT MEAN that they weren't serving Kun prior to that. In fact, the Lingering Harmony card, whether you wish to accept it or not, informs us that they had been serving him for years prior to the events of the game.

LadyKulvax wrote:
Dr. Walter Emanus's team goes dark upon being possessed and the Professor being concerned about this sends you to find out what happened. Walter Emanus and his team very clearly did not go dark years ago. You keep pointing to the in-game mission and the Talus portion as if this changes anything to do with the timeframe established here. It doesn't.

The card cannot fit within the timeframe provided in every description of the introduction of this chapter of SWG. This occurs at the start of Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun, meaning after Chapter 8: Star Destroyer. These are new Chapters for the game, with new stories, it's always present tense because the crisis involved has just occurred in this point of the Star Wars Galaxies storyline.

Reference above.

LadyKulvax wrote:
They even reference the main game event in the first deck with a Champions of the Force quest:



This also confirms that Luke and Walter Emanus met well after the battle of Yavin and the destruction of the Death Star, and given the entire storyline starts in 1ABY, this is precisely consistent with what I have been saying.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt that the card is referring to Emanus, the quote still doesn't imply what you're saying. Luke only mentions talking to the supervisor, not the person from the expedition. There's no mention of Luke meeting Emanus.

Don't see how the mention of the expedition here or Luke meeting Emanus would incur any conflicts with my proposed timeline anyway. The expedition is in past tense. If Luke met Emanus then the expedition could have already happened a while ago and Emanus could have already been serving Kun, even if discretely.

LadyKulvax wrote:
I find it funny how you frame an objective observation as some nonsensical claim. Perhaps that in place of a lack of an actual rebuttal? So, you think the paintings that have cultists in them were created prior to the cult even existing? Because this is ultimately what you're asserting by denying they were created by the cult. In one of these images, Exar Kun is clearly shown about to end the life of a Twi'lek Jedi personally. He's also in Cultist garb which is consist with him wearing a Cultist Robe in the game that looks exactly like all the others. What exactly happened with this incarnation of Exar Kun isn't certain, it may be that this is meant to represent him as he appears in the main game when his spiritual green face is seen hovering over his sarcophagus and then the form appears to battle you. Regardless, it's a valid depiction with in-game text affirming what it is.

Or maybe they never saw Kun alive in the first place and decided to make some art depicting how they thought he looked? Wouldn't this make way more sense considering their depiction of him doesn't match the usual depiction of Kun (i.e. with a blue saber) and the entire plotline is Kun trying to amass enough power to be properly revived in the flesh? Why would he need a cult to help revive him if he was already alive? Like this is just such a peculiar point that doesn't properly consider other more reasonable interpretations. It also doesn't really mesh with your point that the Kun in the card artwork is a properly revived Kun. Why would this supposedly revived Kun with a red lightsaber look way different than the card version which looks like the typical Kun depiction?

Or maybe the Kun depicted in the art is Kun possessing one of his minions?

Plenty of other scenarios besides the one you proposed. Infinite holes in this argument.

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:Order 66 obviously doesn't happen in the game, since all of its events take place post-prequels.

Given that the deck this Sith ability card is from happens to be The Shadow Syndicate and that you fight Jedi as a Sith, as it's a Sith ability card, then actually this is perfectly in-line with the storyline this deck is in.

Wat. Order 66 is not an event contained within the game.

You claimed that everything depicted in the cards is representative of events that take place in the card game. That's the argument you made to support the Kun getting WoL'd in the artwork being the Kun we see in the TCG. If Order 66 didn't happen in the TCG then the precedent is set for things in the cards depicting events that didn't necessarily happen in the game. Therefore the Kun we see getting WoL'd isn't necessarily and probably isn't the Kun we fight in the TCG.

LadyKulvax wrote:
The same titles, whether it's the same characters is neither here nor there.

If the enemies have the same exact names/titles doesn't that raise the very likely possibility that the fight in the card game is the same as the fight in the base game?

LadyKulvax wrote:
The plot is also clearly not the same given its a different set of characters

Or maybe the exact details of the protagonists are lax since they convey the fight through two different mediums?

LadyKulvax wrote:
going to stop Exar Kun in a different point of the timeline with references to the first event in the original release of the TCG game a year before the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter came out.

I'm gonna assume that you're referring to the expedition card with the Luke quote. Assuming your point is that the expedition card implies chapter 9 takes place before/during Champions of the Force and that since the TCG Kun Heroic was released after Champions of the Force, then that must mean the TCG Kun Heroic takes place after the events of chapter 9 from the base game. This just isn't true though. The Kun Heroic is not a part of the TCG story. TCG Heroics are distinct from the TCG story, meaning Heroics in these packs aren't a part of the storyline from the same pack. They exist outside of it. And additionally, I'll reiterate this point again, the expedition happens quite a bit before chapter 9 anyways, not during, as you're assuming here.

LadyKulvax wrote:
This is not that complicated.

Apparently, it is for you I guess.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
Yes, the people in this team, the people you fight in the main game and the people in the TCG are quite possibly the same ones still bound to Kun or new cult members taking on their mantles, as these are titles they have. They rank above the lower cultists.

Or way more likely: they represent the same characters in the same event.

Except either way it still holds with my position, they're either different people taking up the same mantle or they are bound to Kun's spirit.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:I sincerely fail to see how you cannot realise that Walter Emanus and his team were not gone missing for years on end.

Not even what I'm saying. I'm saying they have been serving Kun for years on end.

LadyKulvax wrote:
These quotes are very explicit about the timeframes from which Emanus's excavations and subsequent possession take place:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

These quotes don't provide any specific time frame for when they started worshipping Kun. I'm guessing the quote you keep referring to from the video is this:

SWG Dev wrote:In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb. A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost.

Let me break this down.

In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb.

Reading this I get how you would have the impression that this means the team of archaeologists were exploring at the beginning of chapter 9. But with additional context, we know that this isn't true. We know that this team killed Wagglehorn's team on Talus over a month prior to the beginning of chapter 9:



Additionally, whether you want to accept it or not, the Lingering Harmony card informs us that they had been in Kun's tomb years prior to the beginning of chapter 9.

A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost.

Wagglehorn grows concerned when the contact with the team on Yavin IV is lost AFTER you tell him that contact with the team has been lost. Prior to you helping him find his team on Talus, he did not know the status of the team on Yavin IV. He wasn't keeping tabs on them. When you get to Yavin IV you find out from Rebel forces that the excavation team on Yavin IV has been dark for months:



Wagglehorn had no awareness of the team on Yavin going dark before this.

And once again, to reiterate a point from one of my previous posts, just because they went dark at a certain point DOES NOT MEAN that they weren't serving Kun prior to that. In fact, the Lingering Harmony card, whether you wish to accept it or not, informs us that they had been serving him for years prior to the events of the game.

This is flatly incorrect and you're either deliberately trying to ignore this or just can't read, for the third time in a row. The quote is written in present tense, do I really need to explain this further?

SWG Dev wrote:In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb. A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost.

As for your scan, thanks for proving me correct for the nth time, one month is well within the confines of post Chapter 8: Star Destroyer:



Talus contact lost a month ago.

When did they go to Talus? Thankfully, we know that and the entire timeframe too:



As you pointed out with your own source:

Star Wars Galaxies wrote:a Rebel trooper: "You're looking for Professor Emanus? He leads this archeological dig site. I used to come speak with him when my duties allowed. But recently, in the last month or two, something has changed. He refuses to see anyone. And the researchers and students all started wearing those strange robes. Something isn't right."
PC: "Where can I find Professor Emanus?"
a Rebel trooper: "He is down below in the temple. They dug down and found a way into the lower levels of the Temple of Exar Kun. The Professor is always down there these days. I have not been able to get to him. Only those who carry a medallion are allowed entry."
PC: "A medallion?"
a Rebel trooper: "That is correct. From what you've told me, I'm guessing the markings on the medallion are related to Exar Kun. You'll need one if you wish to enter and find Professor Emanus."

This entire ordeal started 'a month or two' before the quest. Perfectly in line with your 'one month' quote, the lost journal which outlines how the possessions started with him, and with all the other quotes about the recent nature of the possession of Walter Emanus and his team. Certainly not 'years', meaning the card dates this TCG Heroic Encounter years after this.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Dr. Walter Emanus's team goes dark upon being possessed and the Professor being concerned about this sends you to find out what happened. Walter Emanus and his team very clearly did not go dark years ago. You keep pointing to the in-game mission and the Talus portion as if this changes anything to do with the timeframe established here. It doesn't.

The card cannot fit within the timeframe provided in every description of the introduction of this chapter of SWG. This occurs at the start of Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun, meaning after Chapter 8: Star Destroyer. These are new Chapters for the game, with new stories, it's always present tense because the crisis involved has just occurred in this point of the Star Wars Galaxies storyline.

Reference above.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
They even reference the main game event in the first deck with a Champions of the Force quest:



This also confirms that Luke and Walter Emanus met well after the battle of Yavin and the destruction of the Death Star, and given the entire storyline starts in 1ABY, this is precisely consistent with what I have been saying.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt that the card is referring to Emanus, the quote still doesn't imply what you're saying. Luke only mentions talking to the supervisor, not the person from the expedition. There's no mention of Luke meeting Emanus.

Don't see how the mention of the expedition here or Luke meeting Emanus would incur any conflicts with my proposed timeline anyway. The expedition is in past tense. If Luke met Emanus then the expedition could have already happened a while ago and Emanus could have already been serving Kun, even if discretely.

Thankfully, we know I'm right. There's no hidden secret apprenticeship involved here, this is your head canon only.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
I find it funny how you frame an objective observation as some nonsensical claim. Perhaps that in place of a lack of an actual rebuttal? So, you think the paintings that have cultists in them were created prior to the cult even existing? Because this is ultimately what you're asserting by denying they were created by the cult. In one of these images, Exar Kun is clearly shown about to end the life of a Twi'lek Jedi personally. He's also in Cultist garb which is consist with him wearing a Cultist Robe in the game that looks exactly like all the others. What exactly happened with this incarnation of Exar Kun isn't certain, it may be that this is meant to represent him as he appears in the main game when his spiritual green face is seen hovering over his sarcophagus and then the form appears to battle you. Regardless, it's a valid depiction with in-game text affirming what it is.

Or maybe they never saw Kun alive in the first place and decided to make some art depicting how they thought he looked? Wouldn't this make way more sense considering their depiction of him doesn't match the usual depiction of Kun (i.e. with a blue saber) and the entire plotline is Kun trying to amass enough power to be properly revived in the flesh? Why would he need a cult to help revive him if he was already alive? Like this is just such a peculiar point that doesn't properly consider other more reasonable interpretations. It also doesn't really mesh with your point that the Kun in the card artwork is a properly revived Kun. Why would this supposedly revived Kun with a red lightsaber look way different than the card version which looks like the typical Kun depiction?

Or maybe the Kun depicted in the art is Kun possessing one of his minions?

Plenty of other scenarios besides the one you proposed. Infinite holes in this argument.

The art is made during the cult's existence, the in-game text states categorically that "this fresco depicts a battle between Exar Kun and an unfortunate being who lost her life." which means exactly what it says. I mean, come on.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:Order 66 obviously doesn't happen in the game, since all of its events take place post-prequels.

Given that the deck this Sith ability card is from happens to be The Shadow Syndicate and that you fight Jedi as a Sith, as it's a Sith ability card, then actually this is perfectly in-line with the storyline this deck is in.

Wat. Order 66 is not an event contained within the game.

You claimed that everything depicted in the cards is representative of events that take place in the card game. That's the argument you made to support the Kun getting WoL'd in the artwork being the Kun we see in the TCG. If Order 66 didn't happen in the TCG then the precedent is set for things in the cards depicting events that didn't necessarily happen in the game. Therefore the Kun we see getting WoL'd isn't necessarily and probably isn't the Kun we fight in the TCG.

The card is an ability card for Sith decks, meaning you literally use Order 66 during a battle as an ability, it's also not the first time Order 66 has been used after the original tragedy.

And no, that's not my sole point as you've attempted to frame it, I believe what I also said was: and that it's an ability you actively use in the game, in a deck that's released(Sept. 24, 2009) almost immediately after the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter is released(June 1, 2009). Almost as if they reference their own material.

really not that hard to grasp Praxis.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:The same titles, whether it's the same characters is neither here nor there.

If the enemies have the same exact names/titles doesn't that raise the very likely possibility that the fight in the card game is the same as the fight in the base game?

If you have nothing else to base your evidence upon, given every other point has been eviscerated, I'm afraid not.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:The plot is also clearly not the same given its a different set of characters

Or maybe the exact details of the protagonists are lax since they convey the fight through two different mediums?

Or it's two different sets of player characters in two different events in two different games, dated at wildly disparate times.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:going to stop Exar Kun in a different point of the timeline with references to the first event in the original release of the TCG game a year before the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter came out.

I'm gonna assume that you're referring to the expedition card with the Luke quote. Assuming your point is that the expedition card implies chapter 9 takes place before/during Champions of the Force and that since the TCG Kun Heroic was released after Champions of the Force, then that must mean the TCG Kun Heroic takes place after the events of chapter 9 from the base game. This just isn't true though. The Kun Heroic is not a part of the TCG story. TCG Heroics are distinct from the TCG story, meaning Heroics in these packs aren't a part of the storyline from the same pack. They exist outside of it. And additionally, I'll reiterate this point again, the expedition happens quite a bit before chapter 9 anyways, not during, as you're assuming here.

You still haven't provided even a single piece of evidence for this bar the point that there are similar events taking place between the main game raids and the card game heroic encounters, to  claim they are absolutely the exact same event.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:This is not that complicated.

Apparently, it is for you I guess.

Incredibly ironic given how wrong I've just proven you are, but hey, you're young and you can still grow. Don't worry kid.

The fact you can even obtain Exar Kun's saberstaff as an equip-able weapon in the expansion sets after this, is more than enough evidence that the Exar Kun seen in the TCG depictions is exactly as he appears, in the flesh, with the saberstaff:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:
Or way more likely: they represent the same characters in the same event.

Except either way it still holds with my position, they're either different people taking up the same mantle or they are bound to Kun's spirit.

But it doesn't lol?? If it's the same characters in the same event then your position doesn't hold. That's the exact opposite of your position.

LadyKulvax wrote:
These quotes are very explicit about the timeframes from which Emanus's excavations and subsequent possession take place:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

This goes back to my exposition point from one of my previous posts. You just keep posting the same thing over and over again without actually explaining why these things support your points, which makes it so I have to guess how you're inferring these points. It feels like I have to make your arguments for you at this point since you don't know how to properly convey your own thoughts. But I know it probably feels very cloudy in your brain when writing these posts so out of the sincerity of my heart I'll continue to oblige.

We'll start with this quote:


"What will they discover in the depths of the temple?"

I'm gonna guess that this is the line you keep pointing to. We know for a FACT that the timing of this quote MUST be set prior to the events of chapter 9. Per the journal, Emanus explored the entire tomb prior to the formation of the cult, and the cult was out and about killing the team on Talus over a month before chapter 9.

And for this quote:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will.

Again, we know this happens before the start of chapter 9. The cult was already killing people over a month beforehand.

These quotes don't force any type of constraint on the timeline.

LadyKulvax wrote:
This is flatly incorrect and you're either deliberately trying to ignore this or just can't read, for the third time in a row. The quote is written in present tense, do I really need to explain this further?

SWG Dev wrote:In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb. A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost.

Ok, this point is really funny when you look at the next part of your post. You're saying that these quotes imply the cult forms at the start of chapter 9 since they are "in present tense" but in this next part of your post, you acknowledge that this isn't the case lmao.

LadyKulvax wrote:
As for your scan, thanks for proving me correct for the nth time, one month is well within the confines of post Chapter 8: Star Destroyer:



Talus contact lost a month ago.

When did they go to Talus? Thankfully, we know that and the entire timeframe too:



As you pointed out with your own source:

Star Wars Galaxies wrote:a Rebel trooper: "You're looking for Professor Emanus? He leads this archeological dig site. I used to come speak with him when my duties allowed. But recently, in the last month or two, something has changed. He refuses to see anyone. And the researchers and students all started wearing those strange robes. Something isn't right."
PC: "Where can I find Professor Emanus?"
a Rebel trooper: "He is down below in the temple. They dug down and found a way into the lower levels of the Temple of Exar Kun. The Professor is always down there these days. I have not been able to get to him. Only those who carry a medallion are allowed entry."
PC: "A medallion?"
a Rebel trooper: "That is correct. From what you've told me, I'm guessing the markings on the medallion are related to Exar Kun. You'll need one if you wish to enter and find Professor Emanus."

This entire ordeal started 'a month or two' before the quest. Perfectly in line with your 'one month' quote, the lost journal which outlines how the possessions started with him, and with all the other quotes about the recent nature of the possession of Walter Emanus and his team. Certainly not 'years', meaning the card dates this TCG Heroic Encounter years after this.

Glad we are starting to make some progress on you understanding the timeline of events.

Yes, they went dark "a month or two" before the quest, but no mention is made of when exactly Emanus actually found Kun's chamber. I'll say it again since you keep seeming to miss my point regarding this: the point at which they go dark does not equal the point at which they start to serve Kun. We know this to be true. Emanus takes his time to convert the rest of the team into the cult. The journal mentions this. Then at some point after that, they have the time to form and conduct a raid on Talus over a month before the events of chapter 9. Evidence suggests that they were still in contact with the surface after having found Kun's chambers. You haven't provided any quotes which pave a timeline between when Emanus found Kun's chambers and when they stopped communicating with the outside world.

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:
Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt that the card is referring to Emanus, the quote still doesn't imply what you're saying. Luke only mentions talking to the supervisor, not the person from the expedition. There's no mention of Luke meeting Emanus.

Don't see how the mention of the expedition here or Luke meeting Emanus would incur any conflicts with my proposed timeline anyway. The expedition is in past tense. If Luke met Emanus then the expedition could have already happened a while ago and Emanus could have already been serving Kun, even if discretely.

Thankfully, we know I'm right. There's no hidden secret apprenticeship involved here, this is your head canon only.

Lmaooo

This isn't even a rebuttal. Provides no additional evidence to your claim or evidence against mine. I claimed something could be true and you responded with that this is not true without providing evidence for why. You also didn't elaborate on how the card you posted implies Luke met Emanus after I pointed out there is no mention or implication of Luke having met Emanus.

LadyKulvax wrote:
The art is made during the cult's existence, the in-game text states categorically that "this fresco depicts a battle between Exar Kun and an unfortunate being who lost her life." which means exactly what it says. I mean, come on.

I implicitly agreed with the art being made during the cult's existence lol. This doesn't mean the events they depict in the artwork are events they actually witnessed themselves. You can make art of things you haven't seen in real life. And even if they did see it in real life, I provided a possible and more likely explanation for what they witnessed (i.e. Kun possessing someone).

LadyKulvax wrote:
The card is an ability card for Sith decks, meaning you literally use Order 66 during a battle as an ability, it's also not the first time Order 66 has been used after the original tragedy.

And no, that's not my sole point as you've attempted to frame it, I believe what I also said was: and that it's an ability you actively use in the game, in a deck that's released(Sept. 24, 2009) almost immediately after the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter is released(June 1, 2009). Almost as if they reference their own material.

really not that hard to grasp Praxis.

But if Order 66 isn't referencing events from their own material then that sets the precedent for other cards making outside references as well. Which introduces the possibility that Kun getting WoL'd in the art isn't depicting Kun from one of their own works. And is in fact very likely that they are referencing literally the most famous WoL in all of Star Wars in TOTJ which is centered around Kun. It's not a complicated argument.

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:The same titles, whether it's the same characters is neither here nor there.

If the enemies have the same exact names/titles doesn't that raise the very likely possibility that the fight in the card game is the same as the fight in the base game?

If you have nothing else to base your evidence upon, given every other point has been eviscerated, I'm afraid not.

I want you to consider this question in a vacuum and answer it that way. So I'll ask it again:

If the enemies have the same exact names/titles doesn't that raise the very likely possibility that the fight in the card game is the same as the fight in the base game?

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:The plot is also clearly not the same given its a different set of characters

Or maybe the exact details of the protagonists are lax since they convey the fight through two different mediums?

Or it's two different sets of player characters in two different events in two different games, dated at wildly disparate times.

I genuinely don't get how you think that is the more reasonable explanation.

>Same plot points
>Same enemies
>Same location
>Same devs
>Both titled Heroic Encounter

Any differences in the portrayal of events are easily explainable by medium differences. Way easier than two of virtually the same events happening twice at different points. Especially when all the other Heroic Encounters in the TCG are also renditions of Heroics in the base game.

The Heroic Encounter depicting Battle of Nym's Factory Compound in Champions of the Force has the same exact plot points, characters and location as the Battle of Nym's in the base game. You go to Nym's compound, fight IG-88's droid army, and then fight IG-88 at the end.

The Heroic Encounter depicting the Battle of Mos Espa in Squadrons Over Corellia has the same exact plot points, characters and location as the Battle of Mos Espa in the base game, in which you fight the Tusken King and his army.

And then obviously you also have the Kun Heroic Encounter.

Like how hard is it to see that the Heroics in the TCG are just the Heroics from the base game? This is a way more reasonable explanation than "oh actually all these huge events basically just happened twice". Like what?

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:
I'm gonna assume that you're referring to the expedition card with the Luke quote. Assuming your point is that the expedition card implies chapter 9 takes place before/during Champions of the Force and that since the TCG Kun Heroic was released after Champions of the Force, then that must mean the TCG Kun Heroic takes place after the events of chapter 9 from the base game. This just isn't true though. The Kun Heroic is not a part of the TCG story. TCG Heroics are distinct from the TCG story, meaning Heroics in these packs aren't a part of the storyline from the same pack. They exist outside of it. And additionally, I'll reiterate this point again, the expedition happens quite a bit before chapter 9 anyways, not during, as you're assuming here.

You still haven't provided even a single piece of evidence for this bar the point that there are similar events taking place between the main game raids and the card game heroic encounters, to  claim they are absolutely the exact same event.

Which point? You already seem to agree with one of them. You've acknowledged that the cult was already a thing prior to chapter 9. This necessitates that the expedition happened prior to chapter 9.

LadyKulvax wrote:
Incredibly ironic given how wrong I've just proven you are, but hey, you're young and you can still grow. Don't worry kid.

Bro I'm infinitely beyond you. You're a guy in his mid-thirties who debates Star Wars and posts pictures of his sister claiming she's your wife. You've been in this hobby for decades and would still lose to a lot of people who have only been doing this for like two years and still live with their parents.

LadyKulvax wrote:
The fact you can even obtain Exar Kun's saberstaff as an equip-able weapon in the expansion sets after this, is more than enough evidence that the Exar Kun seen in the TCG depictions is exactly as he appears, in the flesh, with the saberstaff:

?

You're doing that thing again where you don' really explain how you arrived at your conclusion. How does Kun's saber being an item in the game imply that Kun has been resurrected in the flesh in any way?

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:Or way more likely: they represent the same characters in the same event.

Except either way it still holds with my position, they're either different people taking up the same mantle or they are bound to Kun's spirit.

But it doesn't lol?? If it's the same characters in the same event then your position doesn't hold. That's the exact opposite of your position.

they're either different people taking up the same mantle or they are bound to Kun's spirit.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:These quotes are very explicit about the timeframes from which Emanus's excavations and subsequent possession take place:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will. Players must eliminate each of the now twisted but powerful archeologists on their way to finally put the spirit of Exar Kun to rest.

This goes back to my exposition point from one of my previous posts. You just keep posting the same thing over and over again without actually explaining why these things support your points, which makes it so I have to guess how you're inferring these points. It feels like I have to make your arguments for you at this point since you don't know how to properly convey your own thoughts. But I know it probably feels very cloudy in your brain when writing these posts so out of the sincerity of my heart I'll continue to oblige.

Oh I'm sorry I thought you were capable of actually reading scans, my bad, I thought a guy who's entire career has been saving screenshots from SWTOR conversations would have an easier time digesting this stuff but that does explain your ineptitude.

Praxis wrote:We'll start with this quote:


"What will they discover in the depths of the temple?"

I'm gonna guess that this is the line you keep pointing to. We know for a FACT that the timing of this quote MUST be set prior to the events of chapter 9. Per the journal, Emanus explored the entire tomb prior to the formation of the cult, and the cult was out and about killing the team on Talus over a month before chapter 9.

And for this quote:

A group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will.

Again, we know this happens before the start of chapter 9. The cult was already killing people over a month beforehand.

These quotes don't force any type of constraint on the timeline.

LadyKulvax wrote:
This is flatly incorrect and you're either deliberately trying to ignore this or just can't read, for the third time in a row. The quote is written in present tense, do I really need to explain this further?

SWG Dev wrote:In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb. A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost.

Ok, this point is really funny when you look at the next part of your post. You're saying that these quotes imply the cult forms at the start of chapter 9 since they are "in present tense" but in this next part of your post, you acknowledge that this isn't the case lmao.

LadyKulvax wrote:
As for your scan, thanks for proving me correct for the nth time, one month is well within the confines of post Chapter 8: Star Destroyer:



Talus contact lost a month ago.

When did they go to Talus? Thankfully, we know that and the entire timeframe too:



As you pointed out with your own source:

Star Wars Galaxies wrote:a Rebel trooper: "You're looking for Professor Emanus? He leads this archeological dig site. I used to come speak with him when my duties allowed. But recently, in the last month or two, something has changed. He refuses to see anyone. And the researchers and students all started wearing those strange robes. Something isn't right."
PC: "Where can I find Professor Emanus?"
a Rebel trooper: "He is down below in the temple. They dug down and found a way into the lower levels of the Temple of Exar Kun. The Professor is always down there these days. I have not been able to get to him. Only those who carry a medallion are allowed entry."
PC: "A medallion?"
a Rebel trooper: "That is correct. From what you've told me, I'm guessing the markings on the medallion are related to Exar Kun. You'll need one if you wish to enter and find Professor Emanus."

This entire ordeal started 'a month or two' before the quest. Perfectly in line with your 'one month' quote, the lost journal which outlines how the possessions started with him, and with all the other quotes about the recent nature of the possession of Walter Emanus and his team. Certainly not 'years', meaning the card dates this TCG Heroic Encounter years after this.

Glad we are starting to make some progress on you understanding the timeline of events.

Yes, they went dark "a month or two" before the quest, but no mention is made of when exactly Emanus actually found Kun's chamber. I'll say it again since you keep seeming to miss my point regarding this: the point at which they go dark does not equal the point at which they start to serve Kun. We know this to be true. Emanus takes his time to convert the rest of the team into the cult. The journal mentions this. Then at some point after that, they have the time to form and conduct a raid on Talus over a month before the events of chapter 9. Evidence suggests that they were still in contact with the surface after having found Kun's chambers. You haven't provided any quotes which pave a timeline between when Emanus found Kun's chambers and when they stopped communicating with the outside world.

Your entire argument hinges on the idea that the card means this happened years ago, this is blatantly not true by any timeframe we have been provided with. Let's go over every quote.

You're clinging on to dear life to the fact that by the time you start the quest up to two months have gone by since Dr. Emanus began acting strange.

Firstly, you're conflating when you start the Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun quests as a player with when the story for Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun begins. It's stated blatantly that "In chapter 9, a team of archaeologists exploring the ruins on Yavin uncovers a way to enter the depths of the temple and ventures into the tomb. A professor on Corellia grows concerned when contact with the team is lost." Chapter 9 is well after the Rebels destroyed the Death Star, which took place before the entire story of Star Wars: Galaxies even began:

Star Wars Galaxies Opening Crawl wrote:It is the height of the Galactic Civil War.

Although the Rebel Alliance has destroyed the dreaded Death Star, the Emperor still holds thousands of systems in his grip.

Throughout the galaxy, civil war rages. Innocents and heroes alike are swept into the conflict. The fate of millions shifts with every battle.

On a distant Imperial Space Station, a smaller battle erupts over the fate of a single being's destiny....yours...

This all coincides perfectly with every description of the storyline from all the announcements and previews of the Chapter: a group of archeologists excavating nearby have discovered the tomb's crumbled antechamber, and as they explored deeper, have succumbed to Exar Kun's powerful will.

1.Dr. Emanus begins to get possessed when he first enters the burial chamber of the temple alone, which lines up with the prior quotes exactly:



2.This all coincides perfectly with:



Which if you listen to the trooper properly happens:

a Rebel trooper: "You're looking for Professor Emanus? He leads this archeological dig site. I used to come speak with him when my duties allowed. But recently, in the last month or two, something has changed. He refuses to see anyone. And the researchers and students all started wearing those strange robes. Something isn't right."
PC: "Where can I find Professor Emanus?"
a Rebel trooper: "He is down below in the temple. They dug down and found a way into the lower levels of the Temple of Exar Kun. The Professor is always down there these days.

Emanus stopped speaking with the Rebel soldier 'a month or two' prior, which is after when they 'dug down and found a way into the lower levels of the temple of Exar Kun', which is when the possession of Emanus began per the Journal and the announcement description. Note the bold highlight, the indoctrination of the researchers and students began after this possession and occurred after they found a way into the burial chamber and that's when the others began to wear the robes.

Emanus entered the tomb a month or two ago which is how the story to Chapter 9 began and certainly not 'years' before the Rebels even found Yavin IV. How do we know this? Almost as if it's been stated for you:



Currently, as the Galactic Civil War continues to rage, Rebel forces have moved into the Temple of Exar Kun. A team of archaeologists has been searching the remaining temples on Yavin 4 to find lost Sith artifacts.

It started well into the Galactic Civil War, the Rebels moved into the Temple and the archeologists then discovered hidden chambers which woke up Exar Kun and the possessions began. In no way was this years ago.

More proof? Before Emanus was ever at the Temple, before even Chapter 6, Luke Skywalker visited the Temple and hires the PC to find a Force crystal for him in the depths of the Temple:





The Temple of Exar Kun is visitable, all it has is a bunch of possessed Rebels inside it, there's no university team or Walter Emanus at all, it's just Luke Skywalker and Jan Dodonna and some possessed Rebel soldiers inside. This takes place before Chapter 9, which is where you claim they should be for years.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:
Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt that the card is referring to Emanus, the quote still doesn't imply what you're saying. Luke only mentions talking to the supervisor, not the person from the expedition. There's no mention of Luke meeting Emanus.

Don't see how the mention of the expedition here or Luke meeting Emanus would incur any conflicts with my proposed timeline anyway. The expedition is in past tense. If Luke met Emanus then the expedition could have already happened a while ago and Emanus could have already been serving Kun, even if discretely.

Thankfully, we know I'm right. There's no hidden secret apprenticeship involved here, this is your head canon only.

Lmaooo

This isn't even a rebuttal. Provides no additional evidence to your claim or evidence against mine. I claimed something could be true and you responded with that this is not true without providing evidence for why. You also didn't elaborate on how the card you posted implies Luke met Emanus after I pointed out there is no mention or implication of Luke having met Emanus.

Except the dating, as I've addressed above, doesn't allow for what you're claiming at all.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
The art is made during the cult's existence, the in-game text states categorically that "this fresco depicts a battle between Exar Kun and an unfortunate being who lost her life." which means exactly what it says. I mean, come on.

I implicitly agreed with the art being made during the cult's existence lol. This doesn't mean the events they depict in the artwork are events they actually witnessed themselves. You can make art of things you haven't seen in real life. And even if they did see it in real life, I provided a possible and more likely explanation for what they witnessed (i.e. Kun possessing someone).

Except the in-game text description is stating authoratitively that the Twi'lek Jedi died to Exar Kun himself directly. It's possible that this is merely Exar Kun possessing a cultist but then, they go out of their way to differentiate that it's the spirit of Kun and his possessed Cultists in the other art pieces. Hence why this is of import.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:The card is an ability card for Sith decks, meaning you literally use Order 66 during a battle as an ability, it's also not the first time Order 66 has been used after the original tragedy.

And no, that's not my sole point as you've attempted to frame it, I believe what I also said was: and that it's an ability you actively use in the game, in a deck that's released(Sept. 24, 2009) almost immediately after the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter is released(June 1, 2009). Almost as if they reference their own material.

really not that hard to grasp Praxis.

But if Order 66 isn't referencing events from their own material then that sets the precedent for other cards making outside references as well. Which introduces the possibility that Kun getting WoL'd in the art isn't depicting Kun from one of their own works. And is in fact very likely that they are referencing literally the most famous WoL in all of Star Wars in TOTJ which is centered around Kun. It's not a complicated argument.

Except you're assuming there is a reference to be made, when the card itself is an ability used by Sith decks against Jedi decks. Order 66 is evidently an ability that the Sith have in this game.

You're also still not addressing the fact that the card only even came into the game right after the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter is over, is only accessible after the Exar Kun Heroic Encounter, and is itself an ability card for Jedi decks to use after the defeat of Exar Kun. Almost as if the game writers knew that this is stated to be the key to defeating him later on in the timeline in the Jedi Academy trilogy and that the Hero would learn this defeating Exar Kun.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:The same titles, whether it's the same characters is neither here nor there.

If the enemies have the same exact names/titles doesn't that raise the very likely possibility that the fight in the card game is the same as the fight in the base game?

If you have nothing else to base your evidence upon, given every other point has been eviscerated, I'm afraid not.

I want you to consider this question in a vacuum and answer it that way. So I'll ask it again:

If the enemies have the same exact names/titles doesn't that raise the very likely possibility that the fight in the card game is the same as the fight in the base game?

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:The plot is also clearly not the same given its a different set of characters

Or maybe the exact details of the protagonists are lax since they convey the fight through two different mediums?

Or it's two different sets of player characters in two different events in two different games, dated at wildly disparate times.

I genuinely don't get how you think that is the more reasonable explanation.

>Same plot points
>Same enemies
>Same location
>Same devs
>Both titled Heroic Encounter

Any differences in the portrayal of events are easily explainable by medium differences. Way easier than two of virtually the same events happening twice at different points. Especially when all the other Heroic Encounters in the TCG are also renditions of Heroics in the base game.

The Heroic Encounter depicting Battle of Nym's Factory Compound in Champions of the Force has the same exact plot points, characters and location as the Battle of Nym's in the base game. You go to Nym's compound, fight IG-88's droid army, and then fight IG-88 at the end.

The Heroic Encounter depicting the Battle of Mos Espa in Squadrons Over Corellia has the same exact plot points, characters and location as the Battle of Mos Espa in the base game, in which you fight the Tusken King and his army.

And then obviously you also have the Kun Heroic Encounter.

Like how hard is it to see that the Heroics in the TCG are just the Heroics from the base game? This is a way more reasonable explanation than "oh actually all these huge events basically just happened twice". Like what?

-completely different set of canonical player characters with unique storylines.
-different dates as I've proven.
-different depictions of the enemies involved, mainly Exar Kun himself.

Them having major events repeat is one thing, blatant evidence and references to main game events showing they're different is an entirely different thing.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:

Praxis wrote:
I'm gonna assume that you're referring to the expedition card with the Luke quote. Assuming your point is that the expedition card implies chapter 9 takes place before/during Champions of the Force and that since the TCG Kun Heroic was released after Champions of the Force, then that must mean the TCG Kun Heroic takes place after the events of chapter 9 from the base game. This just isn't true though. The Kun Heroic is not a part of the TCG story. TCG Heroics are distinct from the TCG story, meaning Heroics in these packs aren't a part of the storyline from the same pack. They exist outside of it. And additionally, I'll reiterate this point again, the expedition happens quite a bit before chapter 9 anyways, not during, as you're assuming here.

You still haven't provided even a single piece of evidence for this bar the point that there are similar events taking place between the main game raids and the card game heroic encounters, to  claim they are absolutely the exact same event.

Which point? You already seem to agree with one of them. You've acknowledged that the cult was already a thing prior to chapter 9. This necessitates that the expedition happened prior to chapter 9.

Addressed.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
Incredibly ironic given how wrong I've just proven you are, but hey, you're young and you can still grow. Don't worry kid.

Bro I'm infinitely beyond you.

Most of the server doesn't even know who you are or why you're here and you've got absolutely no career to talk about at all. This is the basest, most laughable attempt at a flex and only goes to show your continued frustration as the argument goes on.

Praxis wrote:You're a guy in his mid-thirties who debates Star Wars

Desperate much? I enjoy Star Wars across the board and always have, this has nothing to do with anything. Like ten other server members are older than me too, what the fuck is this even trying to say?

Praxis wrote:and posts pictures of his sister claiming she's your wife.

You just showed how badly you're getting trashed that you have to sink this low and pull blatant bullshit out of your ass in public. You should've stayed dead and irrelevant, you're actually making a complete and utter ass of yourself. Absolute tool.

Praxis wrote:You've been in this hobby for decades and would still lose to a lot of people who have only been doing this for like two years and still live with their parents.

Yes because I've lost soooo many official debates, right? Last time being vs like DMB almost ten years ago. What debates have you done again? I know my place, you flip the fuck out as soon as you get called out for your very obvious and blatant targeted attacks on me specifically. Like the server has immediaty pointed out how you came out of nowhere to try and dismantle this because you're that obvious at targeting. Even Rembo could see that. Nothing you are or do is anything anyone around here cares about, go flex on someone who gives a shit.

Praxis wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:
The fact you can even obtain Exar Kun's saberstaff as an equip-able weapon in the expansion sets after this, is more than enough evidence that the Exar Kun seen in the TCG depictions is exactly as he appears, in the flesh, with the saberstaff:

?

You're doing that thing again where you don' really explain how you arrived at your conclusion. How does Kun's saber being an item in the game imply that Kun has been resurrected in the flesh in any way?

Do I really need to hand-hold you to the conclusion?

1.Exar Kun returns.
2.Exar Kun shown in the flesh wielding his saberstaff in two depictions from the TCG, most importantly the one you fight in the game.
3.Exar Kun's saberstaff becomes an obtainable weapon you can use in a deck released after defeating him in the Heroic Encounter.

Hm, I wonder what the implication there might be Praxis.

Fated Xtasy wrote:“AncientPower, because of you, the Exar Kun wank  will never die. You have earned the right to bear the mark of Champion of Exar Kun.”
Tom Veitch to AP(RIP)

homie dont quit

For those that didn't see on Discord: