- KingofBladesLevel Three
June 20th 2022, 2:03 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t4404-star-wars-vs-debating-in-2022-canon-and-considerations
Revan and Darth Krayt will fight in-character, with their morals on, and start diagonal from each other at 424 meters away in an indestructible 300 meters by 300 meter arena in the grass plains of Lothal. Their abilities are as of The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan and Legacy—War respectively.
There will be three main posts per side in addition to a concluding post from each and an allotted time interval of one month between posts. No character limits will be enforced.
June 20th 2022, 2:31 pm
Now, this is sth worth hyping for.
Let's see how good is Reborn Swords, with his massive character advantage.
Let's see how good is Reborn Swords, with his massive character advantage.
June 20th 2022, 4:10 pm
May the best man win.
June 21st 2022, 8:15 pm
Likewise, if it ever counts.
- Master AzrongerModerator
July 23rd 2022, 5:55 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
It seems ILS's mere presence was enough to dominate KOB.
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
July 27th 2022, 9:21 pm
Master Azronger wrote:It seems ILS's mere presence was enough to dominate KOB.
when i read u commented i low key didnt know who u were for a good second there
- Master AzrongerModerator
August 27th 2022, 2:53 am
I wonder if SOR KOB is truly more powerful than his Foundry iteration that got soloed by ILS's passive aura, or if he's an even more of a crazed lunatic.
- KingofBladesLevel Three
August 27th 2022, 10:29 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
“There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped”
Revan’s case is relatively simple; he is either better than or not discernibly worse than Krayt in pretty much every conceivable factor that we consider when deciding fight outcomes, making Revan the more likely victor in this matchup. I’ll try to go into each as this debate unfolds, but for now I’ll open with what is generally accepted to be the most important factor of all, force power.
The Wrath of Darth Revan
There are multiple ways a person could go about showing the vast difference between Revan’s power and Krayt’s, but I think the cleanest way to start is to introduce you to a much earlier Revan than the one I am currently using for the debate; Darth Revan. Darth Revan is, to put it mildly, much, much weaker than Revan as of SOR, so if it's true that he possesses even loose comparability with Krayt, then SOR Revan’s superiority becomes all but certain. Indeed, the amount of evidence that can be brought to bear for proving such a theory is considerable. Saga’s various source books and their associated web enhancement articles, Galactic Files, and WOTC: Sith Showdown, all reveal that Darth Revan is either superior to, or equal to Darth Krayt in force power. You can then integrate various other statements from across the EU to extend the number of connections that can be made between Darth Revan and Krayt. A list* of said connections are as follows:
*For connections that rely on stat values, I will be assuming you can make the inference that X > Y if X’s stat value is larger than Y’s. Explaining that for every such instance would be super tedious and unnecessary.
1. Darth Revan > Krayt (Sith Showdown)
2. Darth Revan = Reborn Krayt (Galactic Files)
3. Darth Revan > Darth Krayt (KOTOR x Legacy Campaign Guides)
4. Darth Revan > Darth Krayt (KOTOR Campaign Guide x Legacy Web Enhancement)
5. Darth Revan > Exar Kun > Darth Krayt (KOTOR/Legacy Campaign Guides)
6. Darth revan > Exar Kun = Darth Krayt (KOTOR Campaign Guide x Legacy Web Enhancement)
7. Darth Revan = Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (KOTOR/Legacy Campaign Guides)
8. Darth Revan = Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (KOTOR Campaign Guide x Legacy Web Enhancement)
9. Darth Revan > Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (Revan Novel x KOTOR CG x Legacy CG)
10. Darth Revan > Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (Revan Novel x KOTOR CG x Legacy Web Enhancement)
Meetra Surik, Revan Novel wrote:It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him;
Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever
Wizards of the Coast: Sith Showdown wrote:The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?
Saga Stats wrote:
Darth Revan - UTF - 24
Exar Kun - UTF - 23
Darth Krayt(LCG) - UTF - 22
Darth Krayt(WE) - UTF - 23
Darth Traya - UTF - 24
You might have noticed that I reused some of the stat values I provided, and that might seem wrong to you. It might even seem like cheating, as though I’m taking one supremacy quote and treating it like 5 supremacy quotes. In reality, however, the way I’ve used the stats in my connections is not only absolutely consistent with how we have treated quotes in the past, it's also the only way we can use them without banning virtually all the evidence available to us. Consider the statement “Bob is more powerful than Joe". Implicit in that statement is the presupposition that Bob and Joe have some amount of some property called power. Bob has X amount of power, Joe has Y amount of power. In order to say that Bob is more powerful than Joe, you need to make a logical inference from their respective power values. This follows for any quote or comparison between two or more things, they’re all just logical inferences/connections between various properties. This is what I’m doing with stats, I’m taking two distinct values, the same in kind as the ones mentioned in my earlier analogy and making inferences between them. But how many inferences are you allowed to make from a stat, you might ask. Since a force power stat is just the property known as force power expressed as a number, to place a cap on the number of inferences you can make from the stat would be to place a cap on the property itself. What happens then? Well, assuming the cap is 1 inference to illustrate the point, if you were to use a quote in a debate saying Anakin is more powerful than Qui Gon, then you’d be barred from using any other quote with Anakin or Jinn’s respective force powers in it, since if you then cited a quote saying “Jinn is more powerful than Maul”, you’ve now used Jinn’s force power value twice, once in comparison to Anakin’s, and twice in comparison to Maul. But what if you raise the cap? You can obviously draw the arbitrary line wherever you fancy, but as far as I can tell, there’s no way to logically justify why the cap would be 1 inference rather than some other amount. Historically, this community(ILS included) has never enforced some arbitrary cap on the allowed number of inferences you can draw from a piece of information. To argue that stats should be capped in such a manner would be in direct contradiction with how we have always used evidence in this hobby. Of course, ILS is free to try and break the status quo on this philosophy if we want to, but he’ll have to grasp at imaginary straws to argue for any arbitrary cap that doesn’t cause the scaling chains I’m sure he’s planning to use from imploding. I don’t expect him to, but I’ve overestimated people before, so who knows?
TLDR: My use of stats is totally consistent with how we use other evidence in this hobby.
Something else you might have noticed was that some of my connections don’t explicitly refer to Reborn Krayt. Some predate Legacy: War in OOU dating, and some seem to be in obvious reference to Vong Krayt. So what’s the deal, am I trying to sneak in information that doesn’t inform us about Reborn Krayt and peddle it as if it does? After all, we know Reborn Krayt is more powerful than Vong Krayt, so what relevance does evidence revealing Darth Revan > Vong Krayt have in this debate? Well, consider any feat comparison ever used in this hobby ever. You’ll notice that in every single one, we lack perfect knowledge of every variable/factor in play in the fight. We don’t know if Krayt is just a savant with force drain, making his infamous feat of force draining Abeloth non reflective of his general power. We don’t know if Anakin wasn’t used to Mustafar’s gravity, causing him to miss his mark when he jumped at Kenobi and got maimed. We don’t know if Luke couldn’t lift the X-Wing in ESB because he was imagining Leia naked and lost focus. There’s no sources commenting on these specific factors and how they affected the aforementioned feats. These might seem like absurd examples, we can say that the likelihood something is true goes down the more times said something fails to appear in a source, and can almost certainly dismiss the Luke example I gave on this basis, but a truth has still been revealed. When we lack perfect knowledge in something, we draw conclusions from the information that we do know. Imagine we know Bob was stronger than Joe in 2019, and imagine we also know both Bob and Joe get stronger than they were by some unknown margin by 2020. We cannot know for certain that Bob is still stronger as of 2020, but if you were forced to bet you would bet on Bob because the last known reference point between the two put him above. The same idea applies in this debate. If its true that Darth Revan > vong Krayt is the last known reference point between the two characters after which both grow by incomparable margins, then its necessarily true that SOR Revan > Reborn Krayt is more likely than Reborn Krayt > SOR Revan. And aside from their Galactic stat entries(which say Darth Revan = Reborn Krayt), it is true that Vong Krayt and Darth Revan are the latest iterations of their characters that connect to each other, in decisive favor of Revan. So SOR Revan > (this will be elaborated on momentarily) > Darth Revan >/= Darth Krayt is simply the most likely conclusion to be drawn from the evidence.
TLDR: Being more powerful than Vong Krayt can be used as evidence against Reborn Krayt.
I’ve just given you a laundry list of connections indicating Darth Revan is with or above Reborn Krayt in force power, and have justified the logical validity of said connections. What now? Now, I explain the difference between Darth Revan and SOR Revan.
After Revan defeats Darth Malak on the Star Forge, he is said to be more powerful than he ever was as Dark Lord of the Sith. At that point in time, Revan had not fully recovered all his memories as Dark Lord, something that would change later on the planet Dromund Kaas in the Revan Novel. Revan would have most likely become more powerful from this event given a similar experience that the Hero of Tython would later have. Having once been briefly trained as a sith during the interim between Act 2 and 3 of SWTOR, the Hero would repress his memories of this experience after being freed from the Emperor’s mental domination. When given the option to restore those repressed memories in SOR, the Hero describes said memories as “power” that he wants to reclaim. Characters receiving power boosts when they recover lost memories(given that the memories include force knowledge) is obvious when you consider that knowledge of the force is seen as a catalyst for growth. The Hero recovers his lost sith training/knowledge and grows from it. The same should follow for Novel Revan.
Darth Malak, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic wrote:"You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord. I did not think that was possible."
Orgus Din, Shadow of Revan wrote:“You were under his control. His darkness soaked through to your spirit. When we freed you you pushed the memories of his training down deep”
The Hero of Tython, Shadow of Revan wrote:"My memories of that time are power. That power is my right and my weapon. I claim it."
Star Wars: Revan wrote:He unwrapped the cloth to reveal the masked helmet he had worn during his
campaigns against the Mandalorians and the Republic. In an instant, all his lost
memories came flooding back to him.
Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan
After recovering his lost memories, Revan weighs his odds against Vitiate in combat, believing that he “probably” wouldn’t win alone, but thinks he has a “real shot” at victory with the aid of Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge. Revan’s estimation of their odds is more or less accurate, as during their battle with Vitiate, Scourge receives a vision showing him a “million possible futures” of the outcome of the battle. In some, the group wins, in others Vitiate wins, the margin being close enough that Scourge is unable to discern which outcome is most likely. The team, however, would go on to lose as Scourge would betray Revan and Meetra, as his vision also included another person striking Vitiate down, leading Scourge to believe that the team was not destined to win that day. Scourge would then feign loyalty to Vitiate as he awaited the unknown champion he saw in his vision to appear.
Revan, Star Wars: Revan wrote:In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even
fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful
now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and
even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.
Star Wars: Revan wrote:The Force washed over him in a wave, and a million possible futures flickered
through his mind simultaneously. In some the Emperor was no more; in others
he had transformed the entire galaxy into an empty wasteland. He saw both
Revan’s triumph and defeat in the throne room; he saw variations of his own life
and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.
He had to choose, but there was no way to know which was the most likely
outcome, or what actions of his would lead to which results. Revan had said
visions could guide the Jedi, but for Scourge they brought nothing but confusion.
The moment passed and the universe began to move again, though everything
seemed to be happening in slow motion. Revan and Meetra stepped forward,
ready to initiate the final confrontation. Scourge knew he had to act now; he had
to make his choice.
In a sudden moment of clarity he saw the Emperor lying defeated at the feet of
a powerful Jedi ... but that Jedi was neither Revan nor Meetra. And the Sith
Lord knew what he had to do.
Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Lord Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan
Fast forward to SWTOR, Lord Scourge has had 300 years to grow presumably much more powerful and look for potential weaknesses that could be exploited against Vitiate. He has found the champion from his vision, the Hero of Tython. However, despite being presumably much more powerful than he was when he allied with Revan, and despite, receiving the information that Vitiate has been recently weakened, he believes that neither he, nor anyone else, can aid the Hero in his battle against Vitiate in the Act 3 Finale, believing that "no one else can resist [The Emperor's] direct influence". In other words, Vitiate, between the Revan Novel and SWTOR, has grown so much that Scourge can no longer provide beneficial assistance against Vitiate in combat, despite being presumably much more powerful than he was in the novel. The Hero would go on to defeat Vitiate in single combat, in decisive fashion, as the Emperor is noted to be “no match” for the Hero. So we have the Act 3 Hero decisively defeating a Vitiate who is much more powerful than the Vitiate in the Revan novel who can “probably” defeat Novel Revan, who is more powerful than KOTOR Revan, who is more powerful than Darth Revan.
Act 3 HoT >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan
This is not the only way to scale the Act 3 Hero far beyond Darth Revan.
After being freed from Vitiate’s imprisonment in Act 2, Revan reveals to the Hero that Vitiate was more powerful than he expected, that he “didn’t understand his true power”. The Hero would presumably be able to sense the strength of Revan’s spirit and would then form a conception of Vitiate’s power that is > the power he senses from Revan. Revan also tells the Hero that he would report to the Jedi Council and reveal “everything” he learned of the Emperor. The Emperor’s power is obviously the most significant thing about Vitiate, so we can also safely presume that Revan gave the council a (from his perspective) accurate assessment of Vitiate’s power. Of course, the council would also be able to sense Revan’s power and be able to form a conception of Vitiate that is > Revan. in the super unlikely event Revan didn’t cover Vitiate’s power level. So the Act 2 Hero and Jedi Council should both have a conception of Vitiate that, either through sensing Revan’s power level and/or being told how powerful Vitiate is by Revan, is beyond Revan’s prior conception of Vitiate. And if we recall, Revan’s prior conception of Vitiate was that he “probably” couldn’t beat him alone.
Despite having this information, the Jedi Council believes that the EoAct 2 Hero, Warren Sedoru, Tol Braga, and Leeha Narezz are capable of defeating their conception of Vitiate, as they plan on capturing him and bringing him back to Tython, by force if necessary. The Hero obviously also thinks the team is capable of beating his conception of Vitiate as well, as he doesn’t object to the plan. This confidence is further displayed when Tol Braga tells Vitiate and Lord Scourge that they cannot stand before the entire strike team. They couldn’t have been more wrong, losing so badly the Hero thinks it “wasn’t even a fight”, with it being noted Braga “grossly underestimated” the Emperor’s power.
SWTOR Codex wrote:The Fall of Tol Braga (Knight)
A one-time respected member of the Jedi Council and its most
fervent advocate for peace, Master Tol Braga now willingly serves
the Sith Emperor. His confrontation with that foe showed him the
nature of true evil and revealed a powerful force he had grossly
underestimated. Master Braga’s failure to redeem the Emperor broke
his spirit. With his pride and faith shattered, he succumbed to
Later, during the plan to attack Vitiate while he’s weakened in Act 3, The Hero is faced with the proposition of giving Vitiate the chance to recover his lost power, to which he confidently says “let him prepare all he wants” and that “Ready or not, I’ll destroy him”. The Hero does not fear a repeat of the act 2 finale, suggesting the Hero thinks he can defeat his conception of Act 2 Vitiate. A conception that stomps his prior conception of Act 2 Vitiate which is beyond Novel Revan’s conception of Vitiate, which is beyond Novel Revan, who is beyond KOTOR Revan, who is beyond Darth Revan.
We now have 2 different lines of scaling connecting the Act 3 Hero and Darth Revan, and when conjoined with the connections putting Darth Revan above/near Darth Krayt, can be summarized as follows:
Act 3 HoT >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
Act 3 HoT > Act 3 HoT’s conception of Act 2 Vitiate >>> Act 2 HoT + Tol Braga + Warren Sedoru + Leeha Narezz > The Act 2(pre Act 2 finale) Jedi Council’s/HoT’s perception of Vitiate = Act 2 Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
Shadow of Revan
Later, during the events of SOR, the Hero recovers his memories of his sith training, which, as I noted earlier, most likely provided him a power boost:
SOR HoT > Act 3 HoT
After the Hero recovers his lost memories, he travels to Yavin IV, where he would fight Revan twice, first at the Temple of Sacrifice, and later at the Forgotten Terrace. At the Temple of Sacrifice, the Hero would manage to “barely” drive Revan back, but only with the aid of a "large strike team of elite heroes" and only after Revan suffers two injuries from the Machine Core, once when he tries to channel its energy to destroy all of his enemies within a 1km radius, only for it's "immense energy" to backlash inside of him upon being attacked by the Hero and the strike team. Revan would also suffer from the Machine Core, a device Revan was going to use to drain all life on Yavin IV to resurrect Vitiate, “violently stripping” away his life force. On top of that, Spirit Revan would “resurrect” those who fell in battle, and just generally doing “all that [he] can” to help the team prevail over SOR Revan, believing that the Hero “can’t do it on [his] own”.
Star Wars: The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote:Boon of the Spirit. Target has been recently resurrected by an outside force.
Spirit, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow Revan wrote:"I am with you. Be strong . . . I am doing all that I can. I only hope this will be enough . . . Brace yourself . . . Do not let him win."
The Hero of Tython, Shadow of Revan wrote:"Revan['s Spirit] wants me to succeed, but claims I can't do it on my own."
Star Wars: The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote:Through masterful control of the Force, Revan has created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channeling its power into an immense attack. Upon successful completion, [Revan] deals massive damage to enemies within 1km. Dealing sufficient damage will break this channel.
Star Wars: The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote:[Revan has] suffered a powerful backlash while channeling an immense amount of Force energy.
Star Wars: The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote:The Machine Core has been rendered critically unstable. It is now a violent maelstrom of twisted Force essence, indiscriminately stripping the life force from everything in the vicinity.
SoR Revan- Shadow of Revan wrote:"You barely managed to drive me away last time. What makes you think you can survive against me?"
So, with a respawning elite strike team as back up, the Hero was barely able to drive back a SOR Revan who had suffered from 2 extremely powerful attacks from the Machine Core. One would imagine that the Hero would do very poorly if he had to face Revan alone. And as it so happens, we know exactly what happens if the Hero tries to face Revan alone:
As seen in the video above, when attempting to fight Revan by himself at the Temple of Sacrifice, he gets one shotted by Revan. I imagine some of you are thinking, “isn’t that just gameplay?”. And while it is gameplay, it and all other power level information is S-Canon according to the LFL/CC meta which this debate is bound to. So the Hero getting one shotted here is tantamount to a quote saying “Revan one shotted the Hero of Tython like the little bitch he was”.
Revan’s superiority over the SOR HoT is further demonstrated by how it requires him alongside Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla, Theron Shan, and Jakarro, with an XS Stock Light Freighter providing air support in the form of strafing runs to defeat Revan after a difficult duel. Satele Shan in particular provides enormous aid, as she uses Battle Meditation on the strike team, “greatly increas[ing], the combat effectiveness of the team. More specifically the BM is noted to double a variety of attributes, ranging from “endurance”, “force regen”, to “max force” Obviously the Hero and the rest of the strike team(for those applicable) having, among other things, their force reserves literally doubled in capacity constitutes an enormous boost.
I have provided 3 different comparisons between SOR Revan and the SOR Hero, and all convey an enormous difference in power between the two, whether it be needing extraordinary aid and/or debilitating circumstances on Revan’s part to manage to “barely” scrape out a win, or the Hero getting literally one shotted if he tries to face Revan alone. They can be summarized as follows, when conjoined with our chains connecting the Act 3 Hero and Darth Revan:
1. SOR Revan > SOR Revan after the Machine core backlashes inside of him + having his life force stripped by the machine core ~< SoR HoT + an elite strike team + Spirit Revan “barely” defeating him >>> SoR HoT > Act 3 HoT >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
2. SOR Revan > SOR Revan after the Machine core backlashes inside of him + having his life force stripped by the machine core ~< SoR HoT + an elite strike team + Spirit Revan “barely” defeating him >>> SoR HoT > Act 3 HoT > Act 3 HoT’s conception of Act 2 Vitiate > Act 2 HoT + Tol Braga + Warren Sedoru + Leeha Narezz > The Act 2(pre Act 2 finale) Jedi Council’s/HoT’s perception of Vitiate = Act 2 Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
3. SOR Revan < SoR HoT + Darth Marr + Shae Vizla + Theron Shan + Jakkaro + air support from light freighters all having their combat effectiveness “greatly increased” by Satele Shan’s BM >>> SOR HoT > Act 3 HoT >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
4. SOR Revan < SoR HoT + Darth Marr + Shae Vizla + Theron Shan + Jakkaro + air support from light freighters all having their combat effectiveness “greatly increased” by Satele Shan’s BM >>> SoR HoT > Act 3 HoT > Act 3 HoT’s conception of Act 2 Vitiate > Act 2 HoT + Tol Braga + Warren Sedoru + Leeha Narezz > The Act 2(pre Act 2 finale) Jedi Council’s/HoT’s perception of Vitiate = Act 2 Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
5. SOR Revan one shotting the SOR HoT >>>> SOR HoT > Act 3 HoT >> Act 3 Vitiate >> Novel Vitiate >/~ Novel Revan + Novel Scourge + Meetra Surik > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
6. SOR Revan one shotting the SOR HoT >>>> SoR HoT > Act 3 HoT > Act 3 HoT’s conception of Act 2 Vitiate > Act 2 HoT + Tol Braga + Warren Sedoru + Leeha Narezz > The Act 2(pre Act 2 finale) Jedi Council’s/HoT’s perception of Vitiate = Act 2 Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan’s perception of Vitiate > Novel Revan > KOTOR Revan > Darth Revan >/~ Darth Krayt
Note the above chains are extremely simplified in how they connect to Darth Krayt, I won’t list every single one, but if you calculate the number of chains that can be made between the 6 different ways to connect SOR Revan and Darth Revan with the 10 connections between Darth Revan and Darth Krayt that I presented, you end up with 60 distinct connections(recall my talk about the number of distinct logical inferences that can we can draw earlier in the post) between SOR Revan and Darth Krayt. A case having modularity of this degree is, to my knowledge, basically unprecedented. ILS could manage to fully debunk half of my SOR Revan->Darth Revan chains and my case would still have more indicators supporting it than virtually any SS post ever written.
To simplify this so its easier to grasp, the power gap between SOR Revan and Darth Krayt is so enormous that SOR Revan can one shot someone who can defeat someone more powerful than Darth Krayt so badly it wouldn’t even be called a fight. The gap is so large that me saying the words “SOR Revan one shots Krayt” fails to convey the full depth of the difference in power between them. And this is supported by literally dozens of angles. So while I plan on diving into other factors beyond force power, like, to briefly tease, Revan's insane durability, in my later posts, I see no reason why this fight should develop into a state where these other factors would have a chance to come into play. Revan snaps his fingers and Krayt ceases to exist. Fight over.
November 3rd 2022, 6:01 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Table of Contents
- UTF Has Terrible Predictive Power
- The Death of Use The Force
2. KoB’s Great Error
- Which Version of Krayt?
3. Debunking KoB's Arguments
- Galactic Files
- Sith Showdown
- Saga UTF Stats and the Revan Novel
4. KoB’s Methodology
- Reduce, Reuse, Recycle
5. Pro-Krayt Stat Arguments
- Saga UTF
- Galactic Files
- Non-Stat Scaling + Galactic Files + Saga UTF
- Final Calculations
6. Reborn Krayt > Apocalypse Krayt > Echoes of Oblivion Revan > Shadow of Revan
- The Ones > Tenebrae
- Abeloth ~ The Ones
- The Gap Between EOO Revan and Tenebrae
- The Gap Between EOO Revan and SOR Revan
- The Gap Between Apoc Krayt and Abeloth
- The Gap Between Apoc Krayt and Reborn Krayt
- The Gap Between Reborn Krayt and SOR Revan
- LFL Optimisation
- A Margin of Safety
KoB wrote:*For connections that rely on stat values, I will be assuming you can make the inference that X > Y if X’s stat value is larger than Y’s. Explaining that for every such instance would be super tedious and unnecessary.
It is absolutely necessary and not at all tedious for you to explain the relevance of UTF as a tool for comparing Force Power. Of the ten connections you made between Revan and Krayt, eight of them appeal to the “Use The Force” stat to some extent. That means you have failed to explain the relevance of the appeal made for 80% of those connections.
Now, while you set about explaining the relevance of UTF, I'm going to point out its flaws.
UTF Has Terrible Predictive PowerHere are a set of premises which I think we can all agree are perfectly reasonable, and are mostly self-evident:
- The more datapoints you have, and the fewer variables, the easier it is to make a comparison.
- Same-era comparisons should be easier to make, and less complex, than cross-era comparisons (e.g, Yoda vs Dooku should be an easier comparison to make than Yoda vs Revan).
- Same-author comparisons between Force users should be easier to make, and less complex, than multi-author comparisons (e.g Yoda vs Dooku in Yoda: Dark Rendezvous by Sean Stewart should be an easier comparison to make than Yoda under all of his authors vs Revan under Drew Karpyshyn and every other Revan author).
- Predicting a hypothetical fight between Force users who have fought before (such as Yoda and Dooku) should be easier than predicting a fight between two Force users who have never fought before (Yoda vs Revan).
If all of that is, generally speaking, acceptable, then consider the following: KoB is appealing to UTF to compare two characters (Krayt and Revan) who:
- Belong to different eras.
- Are written by many different authors.
- Have never fought each other or any common opponent.
The result of this is that not only are there far fewer common datapoints between them than there would be between say Krayt and Cade or Revan and Malak, but there are also far more variables at play, due to the many different authors handling them with their own subjective writing styles and ideas about how to write Star Wars.
So, with KoB appealing to UTF to make a comparison that is, at its core, extremely difficult, you would expect that UTF, as a tool of prediction, would at least be capable of reliably predicting outcomes between Force users who:
- Belong to the same era
- Are written by the same author
- Have fought each other and common opponents, perhaps numerous times
I think, then, it would be reasonable to say that if UTF fails too many times at making same-author, same-era predictions about characters who have already fought each other, then we can no longer consider it a reliable predictive tool for the infinitely more complex task of predicting multi-author, cross-era outcomes. At the very least, we can cast it in serious doubt, avoid using it as a primary tool at all costs, and perhaps seek a more diverse array of evidence.
The only question that remains is this: can UTF predict same-era, same-author outcomes reliably?
The answer, as far as the Legacy Era Campaign Guide and the Saga Web Enhancements are concerned, is a resounding no. UTF maps extremely poorly to in-universe combat outcomes and power comparisons.
The Death of Use The ForceThese are publication dates for some of the stats used by KoB, so we can be clear about which character versions they refer to if left unspecified:
The Legacy of the Force Preview 1 web enhancement was released March 4, 2008.
The most recent Legacy comic released before these was #20 on February 27, 2008
The Legacy of the Force Preview 2 web enhancement was released March 13, 2008.
The Legacy of the Force Preview 5 web enhancement was released April 3, 2008.
The most recent Legacy comic released before these was #21 on March 12, 2008.
The Legacy Era Campaign Guide was published March 17th 2009.
The most recent Legacy comic released before this was #33 on February 25th 2009.
Cade Skywalker’s stat block in the web enhancement.
This is a reference to Cade “in the early stories of Dark Horse's Star Wars: Legacy comic book series. During this time, Cade conceals his abandoned Jedi past, preferring to use his specialized blaster over a telltale lightsaber.” It is also noted at the bottom of the stat block that: “Cade does not carry his own lightsaber at this time but occasionally uses others when the need arises.”
Cade first receives his own lightsaber in #12, when Nei Rin gifts him Kol Skywalker’s lightsaber with a new crystal, so this is a definitive cutoff point for the stat block.
It also tells us that it’s using Cade from "Legacy Vol. 1: Broken."
We can thus take #7 to be the definitive cut-off point for Cade’s stat block, meaning the stats refer to him any time between #2 and #7, where he “does not carry his own lightsaber at this time but occasionally uses others when the need arises.”
With that done, here's Cade’s stat block from the Legacy Era Campaign guide.
In Cade’s description, events are covered up to at least issue #19 of the Claws of the Dragon arc, where Cade “escapes the Sith temple with help from a mother he didn’t know existed, and his mostly loyal friends.” Under his possessions is listed “Kol Skywalker’s lightsaber.” Also, seeing as the Legacy Era Campaign Guide was released after #33, it is likely to be including the Vector storyline when it states “With each new experience and exploit, Cade becomes less the selfish, credit-hungry bounty hunter and more the respectful crusader, determined to settle old debts. However, given his personality and past, it is a sure bet that his future will remain unsettled and dangerous for a long time to come.” Additionally, the Vector storyline is given its own passage in the Guide:
So we have two stat blocks for Cade, and we know which versions of Cade they refer to:
Cade 1 (web enhancement) is between #2 and #7 (certainly no further than #12). UTF +11
Cade 2 (Campaign Guide) is between #19 and #33. UTF +11 or +12
Starting with the web enhancement, in #5, Darth Talon fights Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao, subduing them both with the Force.
Let’s check out Shado’s stat block from the Legacy of the Force Preview 1:
Shado has Use the Force +17.
We need to use the Legacy Era Campaign Guide for stats on Talon and Wolf for a best-effort comparison, but seeing as neither are noted to experience massive power growth between #5 and #33, their stats should be fairly reliable. Also, these stats will be highly relevant for the Campaign Guide later anyway.
Talon gets UTF 14, and Wolf gets a whopping UTF 19.
Shortly after the above fight, UTF 11 Cade ragdolls UTF 14 Talon while simultaneously hoisting a transport shuttle, and then throws both of them beyond the sight horizon. Contained at the bottom of that imgur album is some more detail on the ragdolling.
So for our first comparison:
UTF 11 Cade ragdolls UTF 14 Talon, who defeats UTF 17 Shado Vao and UTF 19 Wolf Sazen with the Force. UTF has so far mapped oppositely to the fight outcomes in-universe.
In universe: UTF 11 Cade > UTF 14 Talon > UTF 17 Shado + UTF 19 Wolf
Stats: UTF 19 Wolf > UTF 17 Shado > UTF 14 Talon > UTF 11 Cade
Let’s move on, but first let’s provide stats for Nihl and Draco.
Nihl comes in at an underwhelming UTF 15, meanwhile Draco boasts a much more impressive UTF 19.
Again, neither Draco or Nihl are noted to have massive growth between #6 and #33, so their stats should hold up relatively well.
The next big fights happen in #6:
UTF 15 Darth Nihl vs UTF 19 Wolf Sazen
UTF 15 Darth Nihl vs UTF 19 Wolf Sazen + UTF 11 Cade Skywalker
UTF 15 Darth Nihl vs UTF 11 Cade Skywalker
UTF 15 Darth Nihl vs UTF 11 Cade Skywalker + UTF 0 Jariah Syn
UTF 14 Darth Talon vs UTF 17 Shado Vao
UTF 14 Darth Talon vs UTF 17 Shado Vao + UTF 19 Antares Draco
For both UTF 19 Wolf vs UTF 15 Nihl and UTF 17 Shado vs UTF 14 Talon, we get 9 pages of dialogue-filled concurrent fighting.
Now, you would expect that after 9 dialogue-heavy pages worth of dueling that, if UTF is to be a reliable indicator of fight outcomes, that a disparity would manifest. And does it?
We find out, no, in #7. We actually get five more dialogue-heavy pages of fighting, with UTF 11 Cade joining UTF 19 Wolf against UTF 15 Nihl. Note that when Nihl starts to fight Cade, Talon warns him "Be wary, Lord Nihl. The Force almost blazes in this one." If Cade’s UTF 11 stat is to be believed, this is very hard to believe. Why would Cade almost blaze with Force power when he is, relatively speaking, the weakest person present by a noticeable margin?
UTF 17 Shado = UTF 14 Talon
UTF 19 Wolf = UTF 15 Nihl
UTF 19 Wolf + UTF 11 Cade ~ unable to outright defeat UTF 15 Nihl
UTF 17 Shado > UTF 14 Talon
UTF 19 Wolf > UTF 15 Wolf
UTF 19 Wolf + UTF 11 Cade >> UTF 15 Nihl
Maybe it’s too early to tell, but so far the stats haven’t matched up with in-universe events.
Moving on, we get an additional six pages of dialogue-heavy fighting.
UTF 17 Shado has been fighting UTF 14 Talon for a combined twenty pages, and for the latter four pages Shado is being helped by the UTF 19 Draco.
Meanwhile, UTF 11 Cade battles UTF 15 Nihl all by himself for three pages (on the first page it’s heavily implied UTF 11 Cade Force pushes UTF 15 Nihl), at which point he is assisted by UTF 0 Jariah Syn. That meagre assistance is enough to open UTF 15 Nihl up to being kicked off of a cliff.
To summarise all of the above:
UTF 14 Talon = UTF 17 Shado for sixteen pages
UTF 14 Talon = UTF 17 Shado + UTF 19 Draco for four pages
UTF 15 Nihl = UTF 19 Wolf for nine pages
UTF 15 Nihl = UTF 19 Wolf + UTF 11 Cade for at least two pages, after three additional pages Wolf has left Cade
UTF 15 Nihl = UTF 11 Cade for four pages
UTF 15 Nihl < UTF 11 Cade + UTF 0 Jariah Syn after two pages
UTF 19 Draco + UTF 17 Shado > UTF 19 Draco > UTF 17 Shado > UTF 14 Talon
UTF 19 Wolf + UTF 11 Cade > UTF 19 Wolf > UTF 15 Nihl > UTF 11 Cade + UTF 0 Jariah Syn > UTF 11 Cade
If KoB’s theory about the usefulness of UTF for predicting fight outcomes were to hold up, you would expect that after twenty pages of fighting, Shado Vao would have beaten Talon, because he is +3 in UTF over her. For four of those pages, Shado was helped by UTF 19 Draco, giving them a combined UTF 36, and an edge of UTF 22 over her, which funnily enough is a Darth Krayt-sized UTF gap. And yet… Talon held her own just fine.
Simultaneously, UTF 19 Wolf was unable to gain an edge over UTF 15 Nihl after nine pages despite being +4 on him, and still couldn’t defeat him after over two pages of help from UTF 11 Cade. At that time they had a combined UTF 30 and an edge over Nihl of +15. With Nihl being 15, fighting a 30 is like saying he was fighting himself twice in terms of power.
And yet, not only does Nihl survive against a force twice his strength, but he is later stalemated by Cade alone for four pages despite having a +4 edge on him, but he loses to just Cade + Syn after two pages.
In short, then, if you compared the UTF stat for each fighter to their in-universe outcomes, there would be a very strong correlation between having a lower UTF and winning fights, as seen with Talon soloing Shado and Wolf, and Cade defeating Nihl.
Or to put it another way, the higher your UTF stat, the more likely you are to lose to or stalemate weaker opponents, as seen with every single fight listed above.
And that, my friends, was just part 1, primarily using the Legacy Web Enhancement stats that cover Cade between #2 and #11 and Shado between #2 and #20.
Now we are going to use Cade’s campaign guide stats, which cover him between #19 and #33… and we’ve already ran into a massive problem. They give Cade a paltry UTF 11… which is an increase of +0 between #12 and #19, or worse yet, #12 and #33. They also give Cade UTF 12... a meagre upgrade of 1, still leaving him 2 UTF points behind Talon, 3 behind Nihl, 5 behind Shado and 7 behind Wolf and Draco.
Seeing as Cade experiences a huge amount of growth specifically in his command of the Force, and his combative abilities, between these time periods, the fact he gains at most 1 point in UTF, causes serious headaches. Not to mention the aesthetic issues with giving Cade UTF 12: Cade is the protagonist of the series, the story revolves around him, and one of his most emphasised characteristics is his raw power in the Force. If there was one stat for one character you would expect the stat authors to get right, it would be the Force power stat for Cade Skywalker, the main character of the series.
But, frankly, there are even bigger problems than just that.
Cade and Talon fight in #14. To remind everyone, Cade is supposedly still 11/12 UTF, while Talon right up to #33 is meant to be UTF 14.
Cade stomps her, and the sheer strength behind his strikes disarms and floors Talon. Now, is Cade better trained than Talon? Is he more experienced? Is he smarter? No, so the primary reason for his victory here must be power.
Cade also oneshots Talon with TK in #16, to make matters worse.
UTF 11/12 Cade >> UTF 14 Talon
UTF 14 Talon > UTF 11/12 Cade
The next fight between Cade and Talon is in #18, after Cade has been brutally trained as a Sith for a month, including time spent in the Embrace of Pain, the device that helped unlock the latent power of Krayt and Nihl, and it was for this explicit purpose Cade was put into it. He also has a Force-epiphany with help from Kol Skywalker which unlocks additional powers for him.
And… Cade literally speedblitzes Talon. And as some may know I've hesitated to invoke the term "speedblitz" for years now due to its misuse in the past, but this is one of the clearest examples of it actually happening. He makes a quip and guts her before she can bring her blade down from above her head. Talon had her lightsaber ignited, was looking right at Cade as he summoned his lightsaber, and was just completely unable to react to his speed.
Cade then fights Nihl over 9 pages, and thoroughly dominates him, landing a kick early on that folds Nihl in half, then later tanking a strike to the head that only makes him angrier before proceeding to cut Nihl’s arm off and kick him across the room.
UTF 11/12 Cade >>> UTF 14 Talon
UTF 11/12 Cade >> UTF 15 Nihl
UTF 15 Nihl > UTF 11/12 Cade
UTF 14 Talon > UTF 11/12 Cade
Stats, once again, have failed us.
But again, since the Legacy Era Campaign Guide goes all the way through the Vector arc, let’s continue!
We get a rematch between Cade and Talon in #31, which ends in two pages with Cade KOing her with a Force push… this is another example of a lower UTF character stomping a higher UTF character specifically with the Force.
And yet, there are even bigger issues…
Nat Skywalker is given no Force abilities to speak of in the LECG.
The description itself notes that Nat was "once a Jedi". In Nat’s first appearance in #24 of Legacy it’s stated that Nat used to be a Jedi Knight. He displays very obvious telekinetic ability. And he not only keeps up with the Force-augmented abilities of Imperial Knight Azyln Rae, but he stomps her in melee combat.
Out of curiosity, what is Azlyn’s own UTF stat? Ah yes, 17.
Is it unreasonable to ask that a bonafide Jedi, a Skywalker no less, be given a stat to represent his very obvious Force abilities?
That reminds me, it wouldn’t be the first time Azlyn was manhandled by a low UTF Skywalker.. There was the time a raging UTF 17 Azlyn was easily subdued and disarmed by a toying UTF 12 Cade.
Speaking of UTF 17… that reminds me of a certain Jedi named Hosk Treylis!
Here’s UTF 17 Hosk getting his ass kicked by UTF 11 Cade while he’s actively suppressing his Force abilities, along with UTF 0 Syn and Blue.
Moreover, despite the fact Hosk’s speciality is in Force Healing, an area he is completely overshadowed in by Cade, he still has +6 UTF over Cade… which begs the question, if the devoted healing master is beaten by Cade in, of all things, healing, then what advantage is left to Hosk that justifies him being 6 points more powerful than Cade?
To round things out, I’d like to draw attention to one of the most amusing aspects of the UTF stat, that is its sense of scale between characters. Aside from just the outright inconsistencies and mistakes as seen with Nat Skywalker’s stat block, there’s the matter of Jor Torlin.
Jor Torlin is a Sith spy… he received Sith training on Korriban, but as it turned out he had such little Force sensitivity that he wasn’t even worthy of becoming an apprentice or acolyte. And yet for all that, he still boasts an impressive UTF 9. Only two or three less than Cade, and a whopping nine more than Nat Skywalker.
The gap between the ultra-healing-prodigy, transport ship throwing, Sith-stomping Skywalker and a Force-sensitive rat like Jor Torlin is apparently lesser than the gap between Cade and the following: Shado, Wolf, Nihl, Hosk, Azlyn and Draco… it’s not just that UTF runs opposite to in-universe events, it’s that there is no semblance of proportion.
In fact, now would be a good time to list out the overall UTF hierarchy within Legacy.
Legacy Era Campaign Guide wrote:UTF 22
Darth Wyyrlok III
Astraal Vao (Shado’s sister who could have been a Jedi but refused training)
- Cade Skywalker’s UTF stat is closer to Jor Torlin, a barely Force sensitive rat unfit to be more than a Sith spy, than it is to Talon’s, meaning not only is Talon more powerful than Cade, but the gap between them is even greater than the gap between Cade and a guy who can’t handle rudimentary telekinesis. And the same applies, to an even greater extent, to Nihl, generic Imperial Knights, Marasiah Fel, Hosk Treylis, Azlyn Rae, Shado, Maladi, Draco and Wolf.
- Cade is 7 or 8 UTF above Astraal Vao, someone who while more Force sensitive by a landslide than Jor, has had zero training. However, apparently, the gap between Cade and Astraal is the same or lesser than the gap between Cade and Azard, Maladi, Draco, Wolf, Kol, Wyyrlok III and Roan Fel.
- A generic Imperial Knight is more powerful than Nihl, Talon, Cade and Nat Skywalker... even though Talon has stomped Elke Vetter (the IK acting as bodyguard for the Emperor's daughter/heir to the Empire), Nihl is at least as good as Talon, and Cade has not only proven his superiority over Nihl and Talon, he's also proven his superiority over Draco and Ganner Krieg combined (Roan's finest Knights). Cade and Nat have also both proven superior to Azlyn Rae. In other words, characters who have beaten exceptional IKs (IU or stats-wise), are apparently weaker than generic IKs.
When I get into some of the scaling later in the post, this UTF hierarchy will look even more silly in terms of both its ordering and sense of scale. In any case where I provide a > between two characters, and the superior character has a lower UTF listing, you can take that as another anti-feat for UTF.
Look, I think you get the point. It only took me a couple hours to type up this section of my post, it was almost entirely just off of my memory of the comic. Legacy’s UTF hierarchy is a dumpster fire of inconsistencies, errors and mind-numbingly bad proportioning of gaps between characters. If I were to incorporate every datapoint from Legacy including sourcebook quotes, intra-comic scaling and all the inferences that are possible to make, it would… basically be a Legacy respect thread that maps oppositely to stats.
So, this brings us back to the central question: is UTF a reliable metric for Force power? Considering the fact, in a self-contained comic series with a dedicated writing team, where nearly everyone with a UTF listing has either fought each other or common opponents, the UTF hierarchy is completely nonsensical, and in some cases just objectively wrong, then the answer can only be no.
Why, then, would we invoke UTF to make much more complicated cross-era, cross-writer comparisons between characters who have never fought each other or common opponents? The scope for error is far greater in that type of comparison and UTF has already failed to make far easier comparisons.
But now, we’re going to do a quick u-turn and stop making fun of stats. Now we’re going to use them in our favour, and it’s all thanks to an innocuous error you could forgive anyone for making.
Kob’s Great Error
Which Version of Krayt?I’d like to quickly remind everyone that the stat authors who worked on Cade’s web enhancement stat block and campaign guide stat block both used Cade’s possessions (or lack thereof) to delineate which version of Cade is being used. The web enhancement specifically mentioned that “Cade does not carry his own lightsaber at this time but occasionally uses others when the need arises.” and thus did not list him as having a lightsaber. Meanwhile, the campaign guide explicitly gives Cade possession of “Kol Skywalker’s lightsaber,” which signifies that as of #12 it’s now one of his possessions, and that is the version of Cade who that stat block is for.
Now for KoB’s error… Under Darth Krayt’s stat blocks in both the web enhancement and the campaign guide, under his possessions is listed “Yuuzhan Vong creature eye” and “Yuuzhan Vong enhanced vision bio-implant” respectively. In other words, the Krayt used in these stat blocks is a version of Krayt who has a Yuuzhan Vong creature’s eye inside his head.
So the only question that remains is… which version of Krayt was last seen with a Yuuzhan Vong creature’s eye in his possession? The answer to that question will tell us which version of Krayt has one of the highest UTF stats in saga, UTF 22 and 23 respectively.
In #18 of Legacy, we see a flashback dating some time prior to 25ABY (before the Vong war begins) where A’Sharad Hett is being experimented on by a Vong Shaper, and we see his human eye being replaced with the green eye of some kind of Vong creature.
In later panels we get a better look at the green eye of the vong creature:
This is obviously different from the blue, almost cybernetic-looking eye Krayt has normally.
So what gives? Thankfully Jan Duursema, one of the writers of Legacy, clarifies this for us in a forum post. “Hett’s left eye was replaced with a Vong engineered eye, but was later replaced with a cybernetic eye – either by Darth Maladi or by another Sith alchemist.”
Next question, then: how long did Krayt have this green eye for? As stated in the comic, Krayt escaped from the Vong “on the eve” of their invasion, which dates his return to Korriban at approximately 25ABY.
After Krayt returns to Korriban and founds the One Sith, we only get flashbacks, but at a minimum Krayt has transitioned from vong eye to cybernetic eye sometime between 25ABY and 41ABY, as he is seen with the cybernetic eye around the same time Wyyrlok I was serving him.
If I had to make an inference: Krayt would probably want to remove the Vong creature’s eye as soon as possible, as I imagine it’s not only uncomfortable having a different species’ eye in your head, but it’s also a constant reminder of the torture he suffered at the Vong’s hands. Moreover, if the cybernetic eye more or less becomes a part of Krayt’s “look” at the same time as his signature helmet, as seems to be indicated above, then the transition could have happened some time during the Vong war, as we see an image above of Krayt rallying the One Sith as he paid “no heed while the Yuuzhan Vong ravaged the galaxy.” Also... does it really take 16 years to find a cybernetic eye in the Star Wars galaxy?
In any case, as is also stated above, as late as 41ABY, which is when Wyyrlok I served Krayt, he “needed long years of stasis to allow my body to heal,” as he “should not have survived what the Vong did to me.”
To add another detail, there was already “a group of Sith cultists planting the seeds of their eventual return” on Korriban prior to Krayt founding the One Sith, so the “Sith alchemist” spoken of by Jan was very likely already present on Korriban during 25ABY (the birthplace of Sith alchemy), which would mean that is the most likely time for the cybernetic eye replacement.
What this means, ultimately, is that the stat block given for Krayt refers to the weakest version of himself. A version who, like his self in 130ABY onward during the Legacy comics, is physically ravaged, but has also yet to benefit from roughly 100 years of power growth, and is also yet to receive any of his most noteworthy feats.
The last version of Krayt we saw who definitely had the green eye was the one who was walking around on Korriban half-dead, and so by the infinite wisdom of stats authors, we can only really base the stat block on that version of Krayt: the one we saw. After all, the last time the stat authors themselves saw Krayt with the green eye was when he was being tortured by the Vong, so that’s the only version of Krayt with which to base their stats on, rather than an ambiguous Krayt who spends most of his time off-screen in stasis.
That is to say, Krayt has one of the best stat blocks in Saga while he’s half-dead, and then proceeds to grow in power, knowledge and combat skill for over a century.
Debunking KoB's ArgumentsFor this section, we will not be attacking the use of stats itself as a form of evidence. Here we will be attacking Kob’s particular use of them and where he has gone astray.
Galactic FilesThere are four identifiers within Galactic Files which can be used to decide on the version used for the card:
When it comes to Revan, his identifiers line up as follows:
- Name: Darth Revan
- Picture: Darth Revan
- Era: TOR (any version)
- Description: KOTOR Revan
With Krayt, his identifiers are as follows:
- Name: Darth Krayt (any version)
- Picture: Vong/Legacy Krayt
- Era: TOR Krayt (which either refers to teenaged A’Sharad Hett, or is simply a mistake, pick your poison)
- Description: Spirit Krayt
I’m not going to argue one way or the other how to decide which identifier should take precedence and when… I’m simply going to cover every contingency. So here are our options:
(1) If we appeal to aesthetic identifiers (picture, name) then the versions are Darth Revan and Vong Krayt.
(2) If we appeal to descriptions, then the versions are KOTOR Revan and Spirit Krayt.
(3) If we appeal to era () then we have potentially SOR Revan and teenage A’Sharad Hett, as there is no other possible iteration of “TOR” Darth Krayt.
You can’t argue the Galactic Files refer to living Reborn Krayt, because neither his picture or his description identify him that way; the picture is of his signature Vong armor and the description extends past his corporeal death. Now, if you choose aesthetics, then it just means KoB’s galactic files argument is referring to Vong Krayt, not Reborn. If you choose the description, then it’s even worse: KOTOR Revan vs Krayt’s spirit.
While we aren’t done with Galactic Files yet, that at least weakens another 10% of KoB’s “connections” to Krayt… we need only deal with the final 10% now.
Sith ShowdownSith Showdown was published May 7, 2008, which means that it would only cover what we have seen from and know about Krayt up to #23 of Legacy (released on the same day). Which means whatever weight you assign to the statement as a possible indicator, it won’t have an effect on any arguments I make for Krayt’s power using post-May 7 2008 sources.
The accolade could be interpreted in terms of political power: “duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy.” And if that was the case, Krayt being a Sith Lord who is at least as politically powerful as Caedus, Darth Revan or Palpatine would certainly qualify him for it.
Moreover, consider the phrase "we'll attempt to answer that question in Sith Showdown." The Sith Lords "duking it out" is presented as a gameplay scenario of Darth Revan and Darth Caedus teaming up to fight a pre-prime Emperor Palpatine, with additional allies for both sides being included, and this is meant to answer the question "what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy." Moreover, the premise of the Miniatures Strategy Showcase "is to practice and analyze different game situations" with the question being "What overall strategy or specific tactics should each side employ to achieve victory?" I'd be very surprised if the authors wrote the quote with solely personal combat prowess and Force power in mind - it clearly encompasses the Sith's broader battlefield tactics with additional allies helping them, and it doesn't even try to answer Caedus vs. Revan but rather only Caedus and Revan together vs. Sheev. I'd say at best it has absolutely no bearing on Revan vs. Krayt, and at worst questions like "How would you get through Emperor Fel's bodyguards?" being asked of Revan's squad bodes very well for Krayt.
The quote’s relative weight can also be attacked in terms of several CC pillars of consideration:
- Recency: It’s one of the oldest sources to discuss the power of these characters.
- Frequency: The claim is repeated nowhere else for Darth Revan.
- Visibility: Very few people are aware of the claim seeing as its published on an obscure WotC article about miniature scenarios.
- Officiality: The claim has at-best average LFL oversight.
Worst case scenario? I would need to take this quote on the chin and point out that there are much stronger (in terms of CC pillars) arguments that can be made for Krayt.
Better case scenario? The quote is taken to be political in nature, and/or includes the considerations present in the scenario itself like each team having allies, Revan and Caedus working together against Palpatine, and questions raised about their ability to get past Roan Fel’s bodyguards.
Saga UTF Stats and the Revan NovelHaving addressed 20% of the connections made between Revan and Krayt, the other 80% can now be attacked simultaneously, since as KoB pointed out, in many cases he is simply “reusing” a quote or a stat to extend the number of connections. Thus, whatever valid criticisms I can bring up for his use of Saga and the Revan novel will affect all 8 connections simultaneously.
First of all, KoB’s evidence contains glaring internal contradictions for his argument. These two connections:
7. Darth Revan = Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (KOTOR/Legacy Campaign Guides)
8. Darth Revan = Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (KOTOR Campaign Guide x Legacy Web Enhancement)
Completely contradict the following two:
9. Darth Revan > Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (Revan Novel x KOTOR CG x Legacy CG)
10. Darth Revan > Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (Revan Novel x KOTOR CG x Legacy Web Enhancement)
Just to add some fuel to the fire, Galactic Files (which happens to be the most recent source to comment on the matter) actually has Traya > Darth Revan in Force Power by virtue of giving her a 10 in Force power instead of Revan’s 9.
Now, the contradiction itself isn’t what I'm criticising, since under KoBs methodology contradictions are allowed, all that matters is the "modularity" of the argument, the sheer number of connections made. What this leads to is an endless recursive loop of contradictory information, in other words, it’s a snake that eats its own tail:
Mandalorian Wars Revan > Darth Traya (UTF 24) = Darth Revan (UTF 24) > Mandalorian Wars Revan
That’s already an issue, but consider this: Darth Revan’s UTF 24 stat refers to him at the end of the Jedi Civil War… however, he has another stat block from the beginning of the war which gives him UTF 17.
This newly-minted Darth Revan with UTF 17 is essentially the more powerful Sith counterpart to the Mandalorian Wars Revan who is above Traya. Thus:
Darth Revan (UTF 17) >/= Mandalorian Wars Revan > Darth Traya (UTF 24) = Darth Revan (UTF 24) > Darth Revan (UTF 17) >/= Mandalorian Wars Revan . . .
Not only is this internally inconsistent, but due to the connection reuse mechanic employed by KoB, it’s an infinite loop.
Even still, those aren’t the criticisms I’m raising against KoB’s argument… in fact I’m not planning to criticise it at all. What weakens the argument is its own design: by endorsing the use of contradictory information and also the “reuse” of that information in order to multiply the number of connections, KoB has opened the door to me doing exactly the same thing, and thus not only does it dilute the relative potency of his argument, but my use of his methodology dilutes it to the point of being a nonentity.
Reduce, Reuse, Recycle
KoB wrote:Saga’s various source books and their associated web enhancement articles, Galactic Files, and WOTC: Sith Showdown, all reveal that Darth Revan is either superior to, or equal to Darth Krayt in force power. You can then integrate various other statements from across the EU to extend the number of connections that can be made between Darth Revan and Krayt.
 KoB notes here that you can “integrate various other statements from across the EU to extend the number of connections that can be made between Darth Revan and Krayt.”
KoB wrote:1. Darth Revan > Krayt (Sith Showdown)
2. Darth Revan = Reborn Krayt (Galactic Files) 
3. Darth Revan > Darth Krayt (KOTOR x Legacy Campaign Guides)
4. Darth Revan > Darth Krayt (KOTOR Campaign Guide x Legacy Web Enhancement)
5. Darth Revan > Exar Kun > Darth Krayt (KOTOR/Legacy Campaign Guides) 
6. Darth revan > Exar Kun = Darth Krayt (KOTOR Campaign Guide x Legacy Web Enhancement) 
7. Darth Revan = Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (KOTOR/Legacy Campaign Guides) 
8. Darth Revan = Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (KOTOR Campaign Guide x Legacy Web Enhancement)
9. Darth Revan > Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (Revan Novel x KOTOR CG x Legacy CG)
10. Darth Revan > Darth Traya > Darth Krayt (Revan Novel x KOTOR CG x Legacy Web Enhancement) 
 Kob makes the inference that Darth Revan is = Krayt via a direct stat comparison.
 Kob makes the inference here that Darth Revan is > Darth Krayt via an intermediary stat connection (Revan’s UTF 24 > Kun’s UTF 23 > Krayt’s UTF 22)
 Kob does the same thing as  but instead infers Darth Revan > Kun (via UTF 24 > UTF 23) and then by proxy infers Darth Revan > Krayt (via UTF 24 > UTF 23 = UTF 23)
 Kob does essentially the same thing as  and  but this time equates Darth Revan to Darth Traya (UTF 24 = UTF 24) and then infers Darth Revan > Krayt (UTF 24 = UTF 24 > UTF 22). He then does the same thing in the next line but instead uses Krayt’s UTF 23 stat.
 Kob here infers Darth Revan > Darth Traya (via Meetra’s dialogue from the Revan novel) and then connects Traya to Krayt (via stats, UTF 24 > UTF 23/22).
KoB wrote:You might have noticed that I reused some of the stat values I provided. . ."
"This is what I’m doing with stats, I’m taking two distinct values, the same in kind as the ones mentioned in my earlier analogy and making inferences between them. But how many inferences are you allowed to make from a stat, you might ask. Since a force power stat is just the property known as force power expressed as a number, to place a cap on the number of inferences you can make from the stat would be to place a cap on the property itself. What happens then?"
"You can obviously draw the arbitrary line wherever you fancy, but as far as I can tell, there’s no way to logically justify why the cap would be 1 inference rather than some other amount. Historically, this community(ILS included) has never enforced some arbitrary cap on the allowed number of inferences you can draw from a piece of information. To argue that stats should be capped in such a manner would be in direct contradiction with how we have always used evidence in this hobby.
 Kob states here that he “reused some of the stat values” provided. He also notes “I’m taking two distinct values, the same in kind as the ones mentioned in my earlier analogy and making inferences between them.” Then, “But how many inferences are you allowed to make from a stat, you might ask. Since a force power stat is just the property known as force power expressed as a number, to place a cap on the number of inferences you can make from the stat would be to place a cap on the property itself.” With regards to this hypothetical “cap” one could place on the number of inferences drawn from a stat, Kob states “You can obviously draw the arbitrary line wherever you fancy, but as far as I can tell, there’s no way to logically justify why the cap would be 1 inference rather than some other amount. Historically, this community(ILS included) has never enforced some arbitrary cap on the allowed number of inferences you can draw from a piece of information. To argue that stats should be capped in such a manner would be in direct contradiction with how we have always used evidence in this hobby.” What we can take from this, then, is that under KoB’s (and if we’re to believe him, our) methodology, putting any cap on the number of inferences one can derive from a stat (or indeed any quote, feat etc) would be arbitrary, and there is no way to logically justify what the cap should be, if any. To try and cap the number of possible inferences drawn from a stat, quote or feat would be in direct contradiction with how evidence has always been used.
KoB wrote:Something else you might have noticed was that some of my connections don’t explicitly refer to Reborn Krayt. Some predate Legacy: War in OOU dating, and some seem to be in obvious reference to Vong Krayt.
When we lack perfect knowledge in something, we draw conclusions from the information that we do know. Imagine we know Bob was stronger than Joe in 2019, and imagine we also know both Bob and Joe get stronger than they were by some unknown margin by 2020. We cannot know for certain that Bob is still stronger as of 2020, but if you were forced to bet you would bet on Bob because the last known reference point between the two put him above. The same idea applies in this debate. If its true that Darth Revan > vong Krayt is the last known reference point between the two characters after which both grow by incomparable margins, then its necessarily true that SOR Revan > Reborn Krayt is more likely than Reborn Krayt > SOR Revan.
 Kob notes here that “When we lack perfect knowledge in something, we draw conclusions from the information that we do know.” He further states that “If its true that Darth Revan > vong Krayt is the last known reference point between the two characters after which both grow by incomparable margins, then its necessarily true that SOR Revan > Reborn Krayt is more likely than Reborn Krayt > SOR Revan.” What this means is that not only is Kob prioritising recentness (“last known reference point”) but that as long as the last known reference point favours Revan, that regardless of the growth of either character since this reference point, the reference point itself would still make Revan > Krayt more likely in their primes.
 Although it was not explicitly noted by KoB, or done by him in his own arguments, based on his methodology, it would be perfectly valid to not only “integrate various other statements from across the EU” but also to integrate various other stats with other stats. This is because KoB stated “Since a force power stat is just the property known as force power expressed as a number, to place a cap on the number of inferences you can make from the stat would be to place a cap on the property itself.” And as we noted in , it would be arbitrary and logically indefensible to place any such cap on either quotes or stats, and thus, there is no cap on how many inferences one can draw by connecting different stats with one another.
November 3rd 2022, 6:02 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Pro-Krayt Stat ArgumentsThe basic idea behind KoB’s stat arguments was to create connections between Darth Revan and Krayt and multiply that by the number of connections between SOR Revan and Darth Revan.
KoB wrote:”Note the above chains are extremely simplified in how they connect to Darth Krayt, I won’t list every single one, but if you calculate the number of chains that can be made between the 6 different ways to connect SOR Revan and Darth Revan with the 10 connections between Darth Revan and Darth Krayt that I presented, you end up with 60 distinct connections”
Much the same way, I’ll be creating connections between various versions of Krayt and various versions of Revan, and will then multiply the number of those connections by the number of connections between Reborn Krayt and his past selves.
What are the connections between Krayt and Revan?
Saga UTFAs we established before, KoB provided us the following template:
Darth Revan (UTF 17) >/= Mandalorian Wars Revan > Darth Traya (UTF 24) = Darth Revan (UTF 24)
Using this, any character with a UTF between 17-23 or higher is equal to or greater than Darth Revan. (See: "KoB's Methodology" section where he permits both direct and intermediary stat connections as well as the integration of other quotes).
This is a list of all of those characters (not including Krayt or Revan), taken from various sourcebooks and web enhancement articles:
Exar Kun (Great Sith War)
Lumiya, Dark Lady of the Sith
High Lady Brezwalt III (Restoration)
The Jedi Exile
Darth Rivan's Holocron Gatekeeper
Gray Fear Moss
Inquisitor Valin Draco [Sword of the Empire]
Emperor Roan Fel
Jedi Sentinel Master
Ulic Qel-Droma (Redeemed) [non-Force-sensitive]
Freedon Nadd, Dark Side Spirit
Bastila Shan (Jedi Civil War)
Vandar Tokare (Dark Wars)
Darth Nihilus (Dark Wars)
Inquisitor [those stationed at the Imperial Citadel on Byss, the strongest Inquisitors of all]
Darth Malak (Jedi Civil War)
An'ya Kuro (The Dark Woman)
Jedi Sage Master Denia
Darth Vader's Secret Apprentice (as of the Battle of Callos)
Dark Jedi Master
Atris (Dark Wars)
Dark Lord of the Sith
Obi-Wan Kenobi (Episode III)
Anakin Skywalker [early Clone Wars]
Nightsister of Dathomir
Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Spirit
Master Rahm Kota
Jedi Sage Master
Sorcerer of Tund
Fallen Jedi Sith Lord [the Dark Jedi Exiles of Corbos]
Jolee Bindo (Jedi Civil War)
Darth Sion (Dark Wars)
Asajj Ventress, Strike Leader
Inquisitor Valin Draco [Echoes of the Jedi]
Kyle Katarn, Jedi Battlemaster
Jedi Battlemaster [Knights of the Old Republic era]
Vader's Apprentice (early apprenticeship)
Darth Vader (Episode IV)
Mara Jade Skywalker
Prophet of the Dark Side
I counted 78 characters there, so that's 78 Vong-Eye Krayt > Darth Revan connections for UTF 23 Krayt.
Then for UTF 22 Krayt, we need only remove 3 of those connections, leaving us 75. That's a total of 153 Vong-Eye Krayt > Darth Revan connections. But, that’s just the beginning, so read on!
Galactic FilesBy invoking Galactic Files, KoB has given us access to another potent collection of Krayt > Revan connections.
In Galactic Files, Darth Revan's Force Power is rated 9 out of a possible 10. Darth Talon and Darth Nihl are also given a 9.
Darth Talon = Darth Revan
Darth Nihl = Darth Revan
Also, since Cade is given an 8 in Galactic Files, that means:
Darth Krayt > Cade
Darth Talon > Cade
Darth Nihl > Cade
Which means later on when we get to Cade’s own scaling, his connections to Darth Revan can be multiplied by 3 via Galactic Files.
In addition, Darth Traya is given Force Power 10 in Galactic Files…
....which when integrated into the prior template KoB gave us:
Darth Revan (UTF 17) >/= Mandalorian Wars Revan > Darth Traya (FP 10) > Darth Revan (FP 9)
Thus, every Saga connection I made for Krayt can be reused thanks to Traya’s Galactic Files listing. That's another 153 connections, totalling 306! But again, 306 is rookie numbers when it comes to stats, the true calculation comes later.
Non-Stat Scaling + Galactic Files + Saga UTFNow to bring it all together, we'll be connecting all of Krayt's non-stat scaling over various characters in Legacy with their stats in Galactic Files and Saga. Once we have that number of connections, we can add up Krayt's total connections over Revan, and finish by multiplying that by Reborn Krayt's connections to his prior selves.
Reborn Krayt > Legacy Krayt1. Reborn Krayt > Legacy Krayt (Legacy #50)
2. Reborn Krayt > Legacy Krayt (Legacy War #1)
3. Reborn Krayt > Legacy Krayt (Legacy War #1)
4. Reborn Krayt > Legacy Krayt (Legacy War #2)
5. Reborn Krayt > Legacy Krayt (Legacy War #6)
6. Reborn Krayt > Legacy Krayt (Insider 121)
Legacy Krayt > Stats Krayt1. Legacy Krayt > Stats Krayt (Legacy Era Campaign Guide)
2. Legacy Krayt > Stats Krayt (Star Wars Legends Epic Collection: Legacy Vol. 1)
3. Legacy Krayt > Stats Krayt (Insider 113)
4. Legacy Krayt > Stats Krayt (Legacy #0)
5. Legacy Krayt > Stats Krayt (Legacy #0.5)
6. Legacy #5 Krayt > prior (Legacy #5, TCSWE)
7. Legacy Krayt > Stats Krayt (Legacy #19, Galactic Files)
Legacy Krayt > Any One Sith1. Legacy Krayt > Any One Sith (Insider 88)
2. Legacy Krayt > Any One Sith (Insider 113)
3. Legacy Krayt > Any One Sith (TCSWE)
Darth Krayt > Darth Wyyrlok1. Reborn > Wyyrlok (Legacy War #1)
2. Reborn > Wyyrlok (via Randy Stradley in Legacy War #3)
3. Legacy > Wyyrlok (via Randy Stradley in Legacy War #3)
4. Legacy > Wyyrlok (Insider 88)
5. Legacy > Wyyrlok (Insider 113)
Darth Wyyrlok > Any One Sith1. Wyyrlok > Any One Sith (Insider 88)
2. Wyyrlok > Any One Sith (TCSWE)
Krayt's Scaling1. Reborn Krayt > Prime Cade (Legacy War #6)
2. Legacy Krayt > #19 Cade (Legacy #19)
3. Legacy Krayt > Darth Maladi (Legacy #1)
4. Reborn Krayt > Darth Nihl (Legacy #50)
5. Legacy Krayt > Morghan Fel and three other Imperial Knights (Legacy #1, #8)
Legacy Scaling1. Eshkar Niin > Antares Draco + Elliah Fel (Legacy War #2)
2.Darth Talon > Elke Vetter (Legacy #2)
3. Darth Talon > Shado Vao + Wolf Sazen (Legacy #5)
4. Cade > Darth Talon (Legacy #5)
Antares Draco > Imperial Knights (Legacy #9)
5. Ganner Krieg > Imperial Knights (Legacy #9)
6. Antares Draco > Imperial Knights (Insider 88)
7. Antares Draco > Imperial Knights (Legacy Era Campaign Guide)
8. Antares Draco > Imperial Knights (Legacy #0.5)
9. Darth Nihl > Darth Talon (#0)
10. Darth Kruhl ~ Roan (Legacy #13)
11. Darth Maladi > Darth Kruhl (Legacy #13)
12. Cade > Darth Talon (Legacy #14)
13. Cade > Darth Talon (Legacy #16)
14. Darth Nihl > Darth Talon (#0.5)
15. Cade > Darth Talon (Legacy #18)
16. Cade > Darth Nihl (Legacy #18, #19)
17. #19 Cade > #14 Cade (Legacy #15, #16, #17, #18, #19)
18. Darth Azard >/= Treis Sinde (Legacy #22)
19. Kol Skywalker > Nat Skywalker (Jedi Knight) > Bantha Rawk (Legacy #24)
20. Bantha Rawk > Azlyn Rae (Legacy #24)
21. Cade > Antares Draco and Ganner Krieg (Legacy #25)
22. Cade > Shado Vao (Legacy #26)
23. Cade > Azlyn Rae (Legacy #29)
24. Cade > Darth Talon (Legacy #30)
25. Cade ~ Darth Stryfe (Legacy #31)
26. Saarai > Darth Stryfe (Legacy #34)
27. Treis Sinde ~ Roan Fel (Legacy #44)
28. Antares Draco ~ Treis Sinde (Legacy #44)
29. Cade > Darth Maladi (Legacy #45)
30. Cade > Darth Maladi (Legacy #46)
31. #46 Cade > #45 Cade (Legacy #45, #46)
32. Darth Havok > Antares Draco (Legacy #50)
33. Sith Troopers > One Sith (Legacy War #1)
34. Sith Troopers > Darth Talon (Legacy War #4)
35. Sith Troopers > Darth Nihl (Legacy War #4)
36. Sith Troopers > Darth Maladi (Legacy War #4)
37. Sith Troopers > Darth Stryfe (Legacy War #4)
38. Cade > Sith Trooper (Legacy War #4)
39. Antares Draco ~ Roan Fel (Legacy War #6)
40. Sith Trooper > Darth Nihl (Legacy #7, Legacy War #4)
41. War #5 Cade > Prior (Legacy War #5, #6)
Final CalculationsWith that done, let’s explain how this affects Revan:
Darth Revan = Darth Talon (Galactic Files)
Darth Revan = Darth Nihl (Galactic Files)
Darth Talon and Nihl also have UTF 14 and 15 respectively. Here is a list of characters from the above scaling chain (or who are otherwise connected to it) who have UTF 16 or higher:
Legacy Era Campaign Guide wrote:22
Emperor Roan Fel
That’s at least another 11 connectors to Darth Revan, any one of which can be multiplied several times thanks to the Non-Stats scaling provided. At this point the number of possible connections begins to snowball wildly.
However, I’m all for being conservative, so let’s just do a bare-minimum calculation. We have 306 connections just from stats alone.
If we do a massive lowball and say the Legacy Scaling connections only amount to the number of scaling links I made without multiplying any of them (consider that every Legacy character mentioned individually has been put above Darth Revan several times, and then from there they interact with each other several times via in-universe fights, supremacy statements and stat comparisons), that’s still another 41, totalling 347 distinct ways to put Krayt > Revan.
if you take the 306 stat connections we made alone, you need to multiply that by the number of ways Legacy Krayt is > Stats Krayt, which was 7, meaning just by scaling Legacy Krayt over stats we arrive at 2142 connections. If you then multiply the connections by Reborn Krayt’s > Legacy Krayt connections (6) we arrive at 12,852 connections!
A case having modularity of this degree is, to my knowledge, basically unprecedented. KoB could manage to fully debunk half of my Reborn Krayt -> Legacy chains and my case would still have more indicators supporting it than virtually any SS post ever written. In this case, I’ve created literally 200x the number of arguments KoB was able to make. It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say that you could create over 100,000 Krayt > Revan arguments using what I laid out above, or to put it another way, 1600x the number of arguments KoB made.
But… we can go much further than that. We haven’t used intermediary links yet. To explain, here’s an example of a direct link:
Darth Krayt (UTF 23) > Darth Talon (UTF 14)
Here’s an example of an intermediary link:
Darth Krayt (UTF 23) > Darth Nihl (UTF 15) > Darth Talon (UTF 14)
And, here’s an extended version of that example:
Darth Krayt (UTF 23) > Shado Vao (UTF 17) > Darth Nihl (UTF 15) > Darth Talon (UTF 14)
Using KoB’s method, those three Krayt > Talon connections are all to be treated as unique. So… what happens if you do every possible permutation of that for every character in Saga? I started by calculating everything manually but after a while I realized it would take too long so I simply settled with the longest multiplication for the Web Enhancement. But for your viewing pleasure I have included my prior work too:
The math for Legacy Era Campaign Guide Krayt:
- The Math For Legacy Era Campaign Guide Krayt Stat Connections to Darth Revan:
- UTF 23 Krayt > UTF 17 Revan (1)
UTF 23 has three characters (3)
UTF 22 has eight characters (8)
UTF 21 has six characters (6)
UTF 20 has eleven characters (11)
UTF 19 has twenty characters (20)
UTF 18 has twelve characters (12)
UTF 17 has seventeen characters (17)
Overall: 3 + 8 + 6 + 11 + 20 + 12 + 17 = 77
UTF 23 * UTF 22 = 3 * 8 = 24
UTF 23 * UTF 21 = 3 * 6 = 18
UTF 23 * UTF 20 = 3 * 11 = 33
UTF 23 * UTF 19 = 3 * 20 = 60
UTF 23 * UTF 18 = 3 * 12 = 36
UTF 23 * UTF 17 = 3 * 17 = 51
Overall: 24 + 18 + 33 + 60 + 36 + 51 = 222
UTF 22 * UTF 21 = 8 * 6 = 48
UTF 22 * UTF 20 = 8 * 11 = 88
UTF 22 * UTF 19 = 8 * 20 = 160
UTF 22 * UTF 18 = 8 * 12 = 96
UTF 22 * UTF 17 = 8 * 17 = 136
Overall: 48 + 88 + 160 + 96 + 136 = 528
UTF 21 * UTF 20 = 6 * 11 = 66
UTF 21 * UTF 19 = 6 * 20 = 120
UTF 21 * UTF 18 = 6 * 12 = 72
UTF 21 * UTF 17 = 6 * 17 = 102
Overall: 66 + 120 + 72 + 102 = 360
UTF 20 * UTF 19 = 11 * 20 = 220
UTF 20 * UTF 18 = 11 * 12 = 132
UTF 20 * UTF 17 = 11 * 17 = 187
Overall: 220 + 132 + 187 = 539
UTF 19 * UTF 18 = 20 * 12 = 240
UTF 19 * UTF 17 = 20 * 17 = 340
Overall: 240 + 340 = 580
UTF 18 * UTF 17 = 12 * 17 = 204
UTF 23 * UTF 22 * UTF 21 = 3 * 8 * 6 = 144
UTF 23 * UTF 22 * UTF 20 = 3 * 8 * 11 = 264
UTF 23 * UTF 22 * UTF 19 = 3 * 8 * 20 = 480
UTF 23 * UTF 22 * UTF 18 = 3 * 8 * 12 = 288
UTF 23 * UTF 22 * UTF 17 = 3 * 8 * 17 = 408
Overall: 144 + 264 + 480 + 288 + 408 = 1,584
UTF 23 * UTF 21 * UTF 20 = 3 * 6 * 11 = 198
UTF 23 * UTF 21 * UTF 19 = 3 * 6 * 20 = 360
UTF 23 * UTF 21 * UTF 18 = 3 * 6 * 12 = 216
UTF 23 * UTF 21 * UTF 17 = 3 * 6 * 17 = 306
Overall: 198 + 360 + 216 + 306 = 1,080
UTF 23 * UTF 20 * UTF 19 = 3 * 11 * 20 = 660
UTF 23 * UTF 20 * UTF 18 = 3 * 11 * 12 = 396
UTF 23 * UTF 20 * UTF 17 = 3 * 11 * 17 = 561
Overall: 660 + 396 + 561 = 1,617
UTF 23 * UTF 19 * UTF 18 = 3 * 20 * 12 = 720
UTF 23 * UTF 19 * UTF 17 = 3 * 20 * 17 = 1,020
Overall: 720 + 1,020 = 1,740
UTF 23 * UTF 18 * UTF 17 = 3 * 12 * 17 = 612
UTF 22 * UTF 21 * UTF 20 = 8 * 6 * 11 = 528
UTF 22 * UTF 21 * UTF 19 = 8 * 6 * 20 = 960
UTF 22 * UTF 21 * UTF 18 = 8 * 6 * 12 = 576
UTF 22 * UTF 21 * UTF 17 = 8 * 6 * 17 = 816
Overall: 528 + 960 + 576 + 816 = 2,880
UTF 22 * UTF 20 * UTF 19 = 8 * 11 * 20 = 960
UTF 22 * UTF 20 * UTF 18 = 8 * 11 * 12 = 1,056
UTF 22 * UTF 20 * UTF 17 = 8 * 11 * 17 = 1,496
Overall: 960 + 1,056 + 1,496 = 3,512
UTF 22 * UTF 19 * UTF 18 = 8 * 20 * 12 = 1,920
UTF 22 * UTF 19 * UTF 17 = 8 * 20 * 17 = 2,720
Overall: 1,920 + 2,720 = 4,640
UTF 22 * UTF 18 * UTF 17 = 8 * 12 * 17 = 1,632
UTF 21 * UTF 20 * UTF 19 = 6 * 11 * 20 = 1,320
UTF 21 * UTF 20 * UTF 18 = 6 * 11 * 12 = 792
UTF 21 * UTF 20 * UTF 17 = 6 * 11 * 17 = 1,122
Overall: 1,320 + 792 + 1,122 = 3,234
UTF 20 * UTF 19 * UTF 18 = 11 * 20 * 12 = 2,640
UTF 20 * UTF 19 * UTF 17 = 11 * 20 * 17 = 3,740
Overall: 2,640 + 3,740 = 6,380
UTF 19 * UTF 18 * UTF 17 = 20 * 12 * 17 = 4,080
Total: 1 + 77 + 222 + 528 + 360 + 539 + 580 + 204 + 1,584 + 1,080 + 1,617 + 1,740 + 612 + 2,880 + 3,512 + 4,640 + 1,632 + 3,234 + 6,380 + 4,080
The longest multiplication you'd do is UTF 23 * UTF 22 * UTF 21 * UTF 20 * UTF 19 * UTF 18 * UTF 17
The longest multiplication I speak of is the product of the number of all characters with a UTF between 17 and 23, so UTF 23 * UTF 22 * UTF 21 * UTF 20 * UTF 19 * UTF 18 * UTF 17 = 3 * 8 * 6 * 11 * 20 * 12 * 17. And that yields: 6,462,720 connections.
Then you can do the same for Legacy Era Campaign Guide Krayt who has UTF 22. The longest multiplication for him is UTF 22 * UTF 21 * UTF 20 * UTF 19 * UTF 18 * UTF 17 = 8 * 6 * 11 * 20 * 12, which yields 2,154,240 connections. Then you can add the two together and get 8,616,960. Let’s play it safe and round it to 10,000,000 connections using UTF to leave room for all the rest of the multiplications (remember, the above list is only a tiny sample of the multiplications you could do, I just did the longest ones).
Now we multiply 10,000,000 by Galactic Files connections.
In galactic files, according to the SI stat spreadsheet, there are at least 32 characters with a Force Power 10 stat. There are 31 with a Force Power 9 stat. There are 9 with a Force Power 8 stat - remember that Cade has an 8, Nihl and Talon have a 9, and Traya has a 10, and all of these can be put over Darth Revan using KoB's method.
32 * 31 * 9 = 8,928 connections.
Let’s round down to 8,000.
10,000,000 * 8,000 = 80,000,000,000. 80 billion stat connections.
Still, we can go further, because we haven’t yet multiplied the stat connections by the non-stats scaling. While the true number of potential connections is unfathomable, if we just use every individual scaling line I created for Legacy in general (41) and then forgot to add in all of the intermediary links (the same thing we did with UTF earlier) that arise from those scaling lines, we get the following:
80,000,000,000 * 41 = 3,280,000,000,000. Over 3 trillion stat connections.
Of course we aren’t done, because we haven’t even factored in Wyyrlok’s supremacy quotes. So again, still ignoring every possible intermediary connection (Wyyrlok > Talon, and Wyyrlok > Nihl > Talon via the same Insider 88 quote are both unique).
3,280,000,000,000 * 2 = 6,560,000,000,000. Over 6 trillion stat connections.
Of course, Legacy Krayt has his own 3 supremacy quotes over Wyyrlok, yielding:
19,680,000,000,000. Over 19 trillion stat connections.
We can finish off by simply multiplying Reborn Krayt’s supremacy indicators over his prior self, which we’ll limit to just 6 for now.
19,680,000,000,000 * 6 = 118,080,000,000,000
That leaves us with a, conservative, 118 trillion stat arguments for Darth Krayt > Revan.
November 3rd 2022, 6:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Reborn Krayt > Apocalypse Krayt > Echoes of Oblivion Revan > Shadow of RevanBut what lies beyond stats? Since this debate is more or less following what is set out in "Canon and Considerations" I decided to make an argument which is optimised towards satisfying the "Consideration Temple of 'LFL Fact'.”
The Ones > TenebraeThe first premise I'd like to establish is that any member of the Mortis trio, the Father, Son or Daughter, are more powerful than Tenebrae.
All of the captions were screencapped directly from Disney+.
I’d also like to add that any elements of G-Canon are going contribute to the strength of this quote and should be sufficient to outweigh any considerations about Tenebrae post-dating the quotes; it's very much a Lucas belief that the Ones are the supreme Force wielders in Star Wars.
Filoni notes that the Mortis episodes were “the story that George laid out for us,” “a much more intensive look at the Force, and Force-Wielders and how that’s used, and the whole prophecy of the Chosen One and what does that mean?” Filoni says he was out of the room for the first “fifteen to twenty minutes of George’s pitch of these Force-Wielders,” and “the writers were all just kind of wrapped up looking at George,” and “they looked at me and said you gotta hear this.” “George sat me down and he started explaining to me, that they’re these gods, they wield the Force, they’re much more powerful than any Jedi Knight.” “How do I take all these things that George just explained and that we’ve outlined together, and how is he gonna put a voice to that.”
With regards to Revan and Bane not appearing in the episode, and virtually anything relating to the Force as a whole, George’s input was held as paramount: “But eventually I got a call from George, and he said you know I’ve really been thinking about this and we should take that scene out with the Sith Lords.” “It was absolutely the right thing to do because they just can’t exist in that form.” “In the end, after discussions it was really George who said, I thought this would be good, I wanted to do this, but it doesn’t jive with my bigger explanation of the Force.” “And it gives you an insight into the detail to which he gets into these issues with the Force, and these concepts of the bigger spiritual aspects of Star Wars. He’s very involved in them, and to be honest the writers and I feel very strongly, when we’re bringing these types of episodes to screen - George has to be more involved than normal, because we have to get this stuff right. Of everything we do, we have to get this stuff right, because this is the Force. This is the whole ballgame.”
Filoni states that Mortis having continuity with the films was extremely important, and he calls the Ones “ultra-beings”: “In the Mortis trilogy, Christian Taylor, the writer and I were discussing these stories after George had laid them out, and we were discussing how do we conquer this, how do we bring it all together to make it make sense, and still maintain some kind of continuity with the other Star Wars films, with something this supernatural.” “The difficult thing about the Dagger was trying to work out the logic of it, you have this weapon that can kill these ultra-beings."
Filoni tells us that Mortis derives from George’s earliest writings about the foundational mythology of the Force and Star Wars, that he’s more involved in Mortis than he normally is despite already being “highly involved in all aspects of” TCW, and when it comes to the Force it has to “come directly from George.” A lot of the notes from Mortis come from George’s old original writings about the Force. Lucas states that the dark side, light side and balance are the core of the Force, and Filoni states that the Ones personify these aspects: “I think George really started to delve back into the mythology that he created about the Force itself, and we started to see some of those elements be personified in the Father, The Son and the Daughter. George is highly involved in all aspects of this series, but when we deal directly with the Force, Christian Taylor and I feel very strongly that that word has to come directly from George. A lot of the notes from Mortis come from a really old binder that George has that has his original writings on what the Force is and what makes it up.”
Lucas states: “The core of the Force, I mean you’ve got the dark side, the light side, one is selfless, one is selfish, and you want to keep them in balance.”
Essentially, the quote is straightforward: the Ones of Mortis are more powerful with the Force than any Jedi have seen before. If you have been seen by any Jedi before The Ones were seen by Anakin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka, you are less powerful than them; that’s the quote. Taken in tandem with what Filoni and George say above, the Ones are "gods" of the Force who "personify the core of the Force," they are far more powerful than “any” Jedi Knight which I would take to mean there could never be a regular Force user, one of the most common types being a Jedi knight, who could be as strong as the Ones, they are “ultra-beings” meaning they are the supreme type of Force-being in the mythos.
Next, we have the Father’s dialogue.
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 15: Overlords, The Father, January 28, 2011 (T-Canon)
First of all, notice the phrasing “My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other.”
He isn’t saying that this was true at any one particular time; he’s saying that it’s true at any time. They can manipulate the Force like no other, period. There is no other being who can manipulate the Force like them. It’s part of who they are, it’s a characteristic, it’s not just incidentally true; their power is unparalleled because of some property unique to them.
“Therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites.”
Again, notice the switch from present to past tense: because we can manipulate the Force like no other (something that is perennially true) it was necessary to withdraw. Because of who we perennially are, we had to do X in the past. It’s just as true now as it was then and it will also be true in the future.
As for the word temporal, as you probably know its definition pertains to time; in this case, the Ones withdrew from the temporal world, a world defined, measured and limited by time; a finite world.
And an anchorite is:
In other words, the Ones are beings with power like no other being, past, present or future, and because of this power, they had to withdraw from the mundane world and live in seclusion. They had to seclude themselves from a world of time, for all time, because their power was, is and always will be too great for such a world.
The Father also says:
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 15: Overlords, The Father, January 28, 2011 (T-Canon)
Now the definition of fabric in this context would be “a complex underlying structure.”
The Ones are beings of such unprecedented power that they cannot exist in the mortal realm. They aren’t just a threat to all life in the galaxy, they’re a threat to the underlying reality of the universe, and so they need to be contained in a realm outside of the temporal/mundane world where they can be controlled. The Force is what binds reality together, all of space-time; the Force is effectively everything. The Ones are uniquely capable of both maintaining and destroying the balance of the Force with their very actions and intentions. It follows then that such beings would indeed be a threat to the “fabric of the universe” when the Force is the fabric of the universe.
We get this somewhat cryptic dialogue from the Daughter about the Ones being those who “guard the power” and “the middle, the beginning and the end.”
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 15: Overlords, The Daughter, January 28, 2011 (T-Canon)
What does it mean to guard the power?
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 15: Overlords, The Father, January 28, 2011 (T-Canon)
The answer is, obviously, balance. The fabric of the universe, the Force, depends on balance between Light and Dark. The Ones are of such strength that they embody the aspects of Light, Dark and Balance, and so they guard the balance of the universe-at-large by remaining in balance with one another.
The “fragility” of the Balance stems from the Ones themselves; a battle between the Son and Daughter can have catastrophic consequences for the universal fabric.
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 16: Altar of Mortis, February 4, 2011 (T-Canon)
One of the important distinctions between the Ones and mortals is that the Ones can drastically swing the balance of an otherwise balanced universe just through interpersonal conflict; on the other hand, mortals rely on less direct means to accomplish this, such as stirring up wars and political strife or subjugating large scale populations. Or, as the Father reveals, by exploiting the power of the Ones themselves:
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 15: Overlords, The Father, January 28, 2011 (T-Canon)
So The Ones are supremely powerful and must live in seclusion. The question becomes, what kind of world is needed to serve as a prison for them?
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 15: Overlords, January 28, 2011 (T-Canon)
This is reaffirmed by Obi-Wan:
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 15: Overlords, January 28, 2011 (T-Canon)
A planet through which the Force of the entire universe flows through; a magnet and an amplifier for all Force in the universe. So, by living on Mortis, the Ones accomplish two different goals: they imprison themselves from the mundane world, and, they “guard the power,” as in, the Force of the entire universe flows through Mortis, is filtered through the Balance the Ones provide, and then feeds back into the mundane world. They act as a buffer between chaos and the universe-at-large.
This is further substantiated:
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 16: Altar of Mortis, February 4, 2011 (T-Canon)
The Father believes that all is lost and the balance is broken just because of the Daughter’s death. Indeed:
Source: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 16: Altar of Mortis, February 4, 2011 (T-Canon)
So, The Father uses the power of Mortis to control and imprison his children; it is only by using a power source through which all Force in the universe flows that he can control them. In addition, the Ones maintain universal balance in the Force by acting as a buffer/filter for all the Force in the universe; their unparalleled ability to manipulate the Force lets them do this, and is simultaneously the reason why they can’t live in the mundane world; this unparalleled power would allow them to “tear the very fabric of the universe.”
We also have this quote from Chee, someone usually hesitant to weigh in on power-level questions, just straight up calling the Father “the most powerful Force user” “to date.”
Now while my argument is mostly going to rely on the Son and Daughter > Tenebrae more so than the Father, you can still get a gauge for the Son and Daughter using that quote. Remember, the Father can only control the Son and Daughter on Mortis, it's their prison. And even on Mortis The Son can at times contend with a post-prime Father. If the Father is the most powerful Force user ever and the Son or Daughter can theoretically contend with him off-Mortis while he's in his prime, then that means we can safely say the Son or Daughter are in the range to contend with the most powerful Force user ever on neutral ground. That means, absolute worst case scenario, they have to be relative to anyone else, including Tenebrae, and a gap that small - relative to one another - is all that is required for my argument to work.
What we basically have are the most ironclad supremacy quotes you could hope for to place either The Son, Daughter or Father above Tenebrae and any other Force user. Not only are they more powerful, but they are qualitatively speaking a different class of beings entirely from “other” Force users; they cannot even exist in the mundane realm because of the chaos their unparalleled power can cause.
Now, something I’d like to highlight here is that my placing the Ones as effectively in a different tier of power from Tenebrae is not solely based on a technicality. I’m not just trying to trap Tenebrae with the semantics of a supremacy quote. There are legitimate narrative reasons to believe the Ones are superior to Tenebrae which are rooted in T-Canon material with some G-Canon intent interlaced through it.
Abeloth ~ The OnesIn the Essential Reader’s Companion, it’s revealed that even the earliest conception of Abeloth, before her backstory was linked to The Ones, was one of “a powerful Force being from beyond the mortal realm.” Also, “the ancient Celestials took pains to keep her at bay. Using Centerpoint Station, these powerful primordial aliens built the Maw Cluster to keep Abeloth trapped.”
As Abeloth’s story developed and became more defined, LFL suggested to Troy Denning that he “use the Mortis backstory as part of Abeloth’s history.” Suggested that Denning intentionally link Abeloth’s backstory to a group of “godlike beings that were a part of the Force.” This is no simple appeal to the term “godlike” as I’m well aware Vitiate has been described this way; what this is, is direct evidence that there was LFL intent behind pivoting Abeloth’s story towards being directly related to the Ones of Mortis.
LFL/higher canon involvement didn’t stop there; Troy Denning states that in light of the TCW Mortis episodes he realized he would need to make Abeloth “fit in” with them, and that Dave Filoni was “great about helping us make that work.”
So while Abeloth is C-Canon, her direct connection to the Ones has more LFL/higher canon oversight than the average C-Canon work; where most C-Canon writers will try to make their character fit in with higher canon, LFL and Dave Filoni worked directly with Troy Denning to help Abeloth and her backstory “fit in” with higher canon.
Now to circle back to Abeloth’s backstory, we’ll take a look at this old sw.com article. This is, to my knowledge, one of the latest pre-split sources, so it should be fairly authoritative on Abeloth from a recency-pillar perspective.
Abeloth is a being “similar, but not quite as powerful as the Celestials.” She is also stated to be a “being of the architects’ power.”
The definition of similar is “having resemblance in appearance or nature; alike but not identical.” So if Abeloth is a “similar being” to the Ones, it means she is of a similar nature to them, and as we discussed in the Ones section, the Ones’ intrinsic nature is bound up with their status as the supreme Force wielders throughout all of history (this is also why there’s a power-clarification in the above sentence when it’s talking about Abeloth and the Ones’ nature, they’re intertwined).
Just to nail it down further:
Abeloth being similar, or alike, in nature to the Ones means her nature shares a “close resemblance” to theirs.
As for “not quite” as powerful, while quite means “to the greatest extent; completely”, not quite would simply mean not completely.
Now, since in this context Abeloth’s being of a “similar nature” to the Ones is bound up with her being “not quite” as powerful as them, what we can take that to mean is that Abeloth is of similar power to the Ones with the only caveat being she isn’t as powerful as them. So as an example, if Abeloth is 99% as powerful as the Ones, that wouldn’t violate the accolade.
So really, the accolade here lies in Abeloth being “a similar being” to the Ones in relation to their nature and by proxy their power (since their nature and their power are intertwined).
There is also the second accolade: “of the architects’ power.” Just to ensure we get our definitions right, since the “of” in this case relates to Abeloth possessing something (the architects’ power), the most apt definition would be that Abeloth possesses the architects’ power.
What we can take from this passage, then, is that while Abeloth is less powerful than the Son and Daughter if you were to split hairs, generally speaking, she possesses their power, she is of their power, she is similar to them in power, she is of a similar nature to them.
After drinking from the Font and bathing in the Pool she becomes a creature of “immense” power. At which point the Celestials decided to construct a “specialized prison of their own design for Abeloth.”
The Son and Daughter “inherit great powers of Darkness and Light” from the Font of Power and Pool of Knowledge, respectively. Their inheriting of this great power is what prompts the ongoing battle between them which the Father tries to quell.
As we know Abeloth bathed in the Pool and drank from the Font, meaning she would have inherited the same great powers of Darkness and Light as the Son and Daughter.
In the Father’s Galactic Files card, it’s stated that after the Father’s mortal wife becomes the dark side user known as Abeloth, "the Father is forced to withdraw with his children from the temporal world to a realm known as Mortis." Connecting Abeloth inheriting the same great power that the Son and Daughter received to the reason the Ones had to withdraw to Mortis speaks volumes to Abeloth’s power: only a being of similar power to the Ones could prompt this withdrawal from the temporal world. Moreover, this substantiates my earlier point about the Son and Daughter being able to contend with the Father on neutral territory: Abeloth, who inherited their same powers and who is stated to be slightly beneath them in power, was enough of a problem to prompt the Father to withdraw to Mortis. If Abeloth wasn't a problem for the Father power-wise, he wouldn't have been forced to withdraw.
Circling back to Abeloth’s imprisonment, it’s stated that the Killik hives constructed Centerpoint Station on behalf of two celestial architects, the Son and Daughter. Abeloth “would have to be imprisoned for the good of the galaxy” and since “no known prison could hold beings of the architects’ power, the Son and Daughter were forced to construct one.” The Son and Daughter were “forced” to construct a prison for Abeloth that would also be able to “hold” beings of their own power. In other words, Abeloth’s power is so similar to the Son and Daughter that in order to imprison her, they were “forced” to construct a “specialized prison of their own design” which is also powerful enough to imprison them.
That means whatever power gap exists between Abeloth and the siblings, it can only be slight, which is what “not quite” would usually imply anyway. As another supremacy node, Centerpoint Station is called “the most powerful force in the galaxy, second only to the power of the Force itself.”
Centerpoint station is a prison for “cosmic threats.” And remember that “cosmic threat” in this context is bound up with the Ones being able to “tear the fabric of the universe.” The definition of cosmic is “Infinitely or inconceivably extended; vast.”
The Ones superiority to Tenebrae:
- The Father is the most powerful Force user.
- The Ones are “more powerful with the Force” than Tenebrae.
- The Ones can “manipulate the Force like no other”, including Tenebrae and others from the mortal realm.
- The Ones found it “necessary to withdraw from the temporal world.”
- The Ones “could tear the very fabric” of “the universe.”
- The Ones can “only” be controlled on a “conduit through which the entire Force of the universe flows,” on a planet that “is the Force.”
- The Ones “guard” the balance of the universe by maintaining a “fragile balance” between each other. Any interpersonal conflict between them “could have dramatic repercussions for the universe at large” without the need for any intermediary means of unbalancing, e.g inciting war.
Abeloth’s parity to The Ones:
- Abeloth is of a “similar” nature to the Ones in a context where their power is directly related to their celestial nature.
- Abeloth is “a being of the architects’ (Son and Daughter) power.”
- The Son and Daughter were “forced” to construct a “specialized prison of their own design” that can “hold a being” of their own power to imprison Abeloth.
- Abeloth “forced” the Father “to withdraw with his children from the temporal world.”
- Abeloth “inherited great powers of Darkness and Light” from the same sources as the Son and Daughter.
Abeloth’s superiority or relativity to Tenebrae:
- Abeloth is “a being similar” to the Ones in a context where their power is directly related to their celestial nature, who have the aforementioned indicators over Tenebrae.
- Abeloth is “a being of the architects’ power” who have the aforementioned indicators over Tenebrae.
- The Son and Daughter were “forced” to construct a “specialized prison of their own design” that can “hold a being of the architects’ power” to “hold” Abeloth, and the Son and Daughter have the aforementioned indicators over Tenebrae.
- Abeloth “forced” the Father “to withdraw with his children from the temporal world”, and the Ones all have the aforementioned indicators over Tenebrae.
- Abeloth “inherited great powers of Darkness and Light” from the same sources as the Son and Daughter, who have the aforementioned indicators over Tenebrae.
- Abeloth is a “cosmic threat” who “would have to be imprisoned for the good of the galaxy” using “the most powerful force in the galaxy, second only to the power of the Force itself.”
- Abeloth is “a powerful Force being from beyond the mortal realm” who the “ancient Celestials took pains” to imprison.
My argument only requires Tenebrae and Abeloth to be equal, but as a margin of safety, I've done what I can to show that Abeloth is probably more powerful than Tenebrae. Even if Abeloth was inferior to Tenebrae, it couldn't be by enough to change my argument, because Abeloth is at least somewhat relative to the Father which means the gap between her and Tenebrae is necessarily small enough for the argument to still work.
The Gap Between Tenebrae and EOO RevanThe premise here is fairly simple and I think pretty much anyone whose area of expertise is SWTOR will agree with me: EOO Revan is an insect to Tenebrae.
First of all, lets quickly establish what Tenebrae is in EOO and what his power level is. "Tenebrae is being remade." "destroying his body wasn't enough... his essence itself must be obliterated." "As long as Tenebrae's spirit remains..." "You must destroy his very essence."
This is "Valkorion's last vestige."
Tenebrae is composing himself with what he has "gathered from this Jedi's memories." He's using what "this Jedi remembers - though she clearly lacks details." In regards to whether he is truly Tenebrae, he says "I am... and I am not." Further, when it's said "You're not Valkorion or Vitiate... you're Tenebrae" he confirms it, "As shrewd as I'd been led to believe." It's further elaborated that "The ritual carved into him isn't a plague. It's an imprint -- an echo of who he was back then." Valkorion says "It has taken longer than I'd hoped to... recompose himself." He did this using "The memories this Jedi and her followers have of me."
Marr says, his "power is the same" as it was before but his attitude is different; he is "arrogant" and "reckless." Furthermore, he gleans the facts about his other selves from memories, but "possesses none of the wisdom earned by experiencing them." So, we can confirm Tenebrae has recomposed himself, he does have the power he wielded before, but the main difference is in his experience and attitude: he lacks the wisdom of direct experience and he's arrogant and reckless. The Outlander also thinks at first "This Tenebrae sounds weaker than the Emperor," and while in terms of raw power that's not true as Marr clarifies, it was the lack of wisdom which prompted the Outlander to say this, so that can only be a detriment to Tenebrae.
As for the fight itself, Kira states "we're going to join our minds with Satele's to help her fight. Focus your minds on her." "The Force unites us all. Through the Force... all things are one."
Revan says "In the fight against you, no one is alone." "He divided us. He knows that together, we are stronger than he can ever hope to be." "Together -- we will end him." "No one person can destroy this threat. But all of us, together? We will end him." Essentially then, while it's hopeless for anyone individually, all of them together will get it done. While Revan doesn't outright say whether literally everyone there is "needed," he does heavily emphasise how the way to defeat him is everyone working together. As long as that combined force even has moderate difficulty against Tenebrae (and we'll see the difficulty later) that would be enough for the argument.
"Arrogance blinds you." "Your power is your weakness. It blinds you." "your ego wouldn't allow it." "I only had to let you think you were invincible." "every person who knows your weakness." "You think your power is infinite. Only the Force is infinite." So Tenebrae's power is his weakness, he thinks he's invincible and his power is infinite, everyone present knows that this is his weakness, he is blinded by his power.
"Teamwork is everything." "I'll win the same way I always do: as part of a team." With regards to Tenebrae thinking he can't be killed by the team: "You think I can't - so I can." "You truly believe it's impossible - that's what makes it possible."
So we have the lay of the land: Tenebrae is as powerful as he's ever been but blinded by that power, arrogant, reckless, thinks he's invincible, can't be killed, his power is infinite, and everyone present knows that this is his weakness and know that the key to defeating him is through teamwork. This Tenebrae has only been able to recompose himself through the memories of others which lack precise details, and he lacks the wisdom gained from experience. The Outlander thought this lack of wisdom could be a reason for Tenebrae being weaker. So all indicators point to this Tenebrae, quite possibly, being less combat effective, less tactical perhaps, less optimised than a prior version with his wisdom - and yet all of the scaling I gave Abeloth would just as well apply to a combat-optimised Tenebrae.
In the final battle of EOO, the following force take on the three distinct Tenebrae personas; Tenebrae, Vitiate and Valkorion. Tenebrae is able to divide his power and attention between all of these Force for a protracted amount of time:
- Revan (Unified)
- The Outlander
- Meetra Surik
- Satele's students
3:45 - the Valkorion persona takes on The Outlander, Arcann, Thexan and Satele Shan.
7:30 - the Vitiate persona takes on The Outlander, Arcann, Thexan, Satele, Kira and Scourge.
9:30 - the Tenebrae persona takes on The Outlander, Arcann, Thexan, Satele, Kira, Scourge, Meetra, Marr, Senya, Revan, and Vaylin.
15:36 - the three personas subdue everyone mentioned prior. The Outlander is able to stand briefly before Tenebrae focuses on them and floors them again. Shortly after, the strike team is bolstered by the presence of seemingly the victims of "everything" Tenebrae has "done," everyone he has "betrayed," "manipulated" and "murdered." With this he is finally defeated.
Finally, Satele confirms that Tenebrae's essence has finally been destroyed, and vaguely refers to the golden audience that aided the strike team as the "consequences" of Tenebrae's actions.
So to conclude... even given what I laid out about Tenebrae's arrogance/lack of wisdom compared to his optimal self, and the huge emphasis on teamwork for the strike team, it seems like this final aid to the strike team - the "consequences" - played a non-trivial/vital role in securing their victory, which could mean Tenebrae is superior to the strike team without that aid... which would be staggering to say the least. He did, after all, pin every member to the floor simultaneously. And so, the phrase "EOO Revan is an insect to Tenebrae in EOO" could only be described as fitting to express the power difference between them. And that shouldn't come as an insult to Revan, but rather a testament to how insanely powerful Tenebrae is.
The Gap Between EOO Revan and SOR RevanRevan's spirit states this about SOR Revan:
"The brooding monster inside those temple walls, he is not Revan. He is an abomination."
"His obsession, his arrogance, this angry crusade--it's all blinded him to the truth."
It's then said:
"He claims to be on our side, and that the one we've been chasing isn't him at all."
Revan's spirit states about himself that he "learned to release my attachments."
His "attachments have always driven me too far."
About SOR, he states "I recognize much of myself in him. The darkness I left behind." "His fury. . ." "my actions were those of a madman, consumed by rage. I am glad to have left such evil behind."
About Revan's spirit, Marr, Satele and the player have this to say:
"You sense it too. Not the ancient Sith, or the Emperor. Not Revan. Another presence... different from the rest."
"Yes. It is more like you."
"I sense it too. Is it really possible that a light side presence could exist here?"
"The light can flourish anywhere."
"Are you saying there's another Jedi somewhere near us."
"No Jedi could survive here alone. It is a vestige at most."
"But, in answer to your question, no: the presence isn't exactly like that of a Jedi, either. It's still very difficult to pinpoint."
Spirit Revan and SOR converse:
"You've been so blinded by your unchecked rage, your thirst for vengeance, that you could not see the truth."
"neither of us is truly Revan."
"I was ready to become one with the Force. But I soon realized that was only what part of me wanted."
"I cast you out! It was the only way to go on--to remain and finish what we started! You were holding me back! You think you're stronger this way, but you're not. Neither of us is. We're broken. We can't go on like this."
In regards to reuniting Revan's Spirit and SOR:
"I... if we unite, what I am--won't it fade? Become diminished...?"
"You are once again complete."
"It's more than that. For the first time in a long time, I'm... myself."
"You have found your center."
"I have. For the first time in a long time."
"You are... all together now?"
"For the first time in a long time, I am."
With regards to Vitiate's attempt to split Revan in two:
"So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart, to unleash my anger and hatred..."
"I detached myself from the pain. Focused on the Force."
"You've carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust."
"Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see."
"Strength is useless without wisdom to guide it."
"Strength is useless without some wisdom to guide it."
"He needs your wisdom, but you need his strength. His focus."
"Each part of you was needed as much as the other. The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together."
"That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together."
"I am whole again..."
Satele states: "Your hatred and regrets are consuming you."
Based on the above, I would posit that SOR Revan's overall combative ability, including power, is a fraction of EOO Revan's. To illustrate the disparity, I'll list out what SOR is, what Spirit Revan is to show what SOR lacks, and what is said about the unified Revan who appears in EOO.
- Is a "brooding monster"
- An "abomination"
- "Is not Revan," isn't Revan "at all"
- "Blind to the truth"
- His attachments drive him too far
- He is the darkness left behind
- His fury
- A madman consumed by rage
- Blinded by unchecked rage, a thirst for vengeance and cannot see the truth
- Has cast out Spirit Revan in order to go on living
- Has had his anger and hatred unleashed
- Consumed by hatred and regrets
- Wrenched apart from Spirit Revan
- Carries on dragging the remains of a body that should have faded to dust
- Weaker without Spirit Revan
- Broken without Spirit Revan
- Is hatred fueled cunning
- Burned out of all wisdom
- His strength is useless without Spirit Revan's wisdom
- Needs Spirit Revan's wisdom
- Isn't "nearly as good as one whole, working together", and for this reason Vitiate "tried so hard to split you up."
- Learned to release his attachments
- A presence more like Satele Shan than the ancient Sith, Vitiate or SOR Revan
- A light side presence
- The "part" of Revan that was ready to become one with the Force
- Broken without his SOR part
- Weaker without his SOR part
- Needs SOR's strength and focus as much as SOR needs his wisdom
- Isn't "nearly as good as one whole, working together", and for this reason Vitiate "tried so hard to split you up."
- The unified whole comprised of the two parts of Revan, the spirit and SOR
- Stronger than SOR
- Once again complete
- Is "himself", truly Revan
- Has found his center
- Is "all together" or "whole"
- Strongest when together
- Comprised of two pieces working together which, when apart, weren't nearly as good as the whole
- Has all of the aforementioned strengths of SOR and Spirit Revan
- Lacks all of the aforementioned drawbacks and weaknesses of SOR and Spirit Revan
It would be apt to say that SOR Revan is a fraction of what EOO Revan is. Not only are his Light and Dark halves virtually split in half, but those two halves together are worth far more than the sum of their parts. The ineffectiveness of one half by itself was described as "useless" without the complimentary second half, whether that be strength or wisdom.
November 3rd 2022, 6:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The Gap Between Apoc Krayt and Abeloth
- Apocalypse Citations:
Luke needs to know Abeloth's "weak points," but Mara and Jacen "can't help" him against Abeloth.
Krayt "can" and "will."
Krayt is a "darkness that pulled at" Luke. He appears in "the form of a shadow-wrapped human," with "a head hooded in darkness." As he "drew nearer, it began to resemble a man Luke had seen many years before, a man who had appeared only in his dreams - and always shortly before he awoke feeling uneasy and frightened." Krayt is the man Luke "kept seeing in my dreams."
The "cloaking shadows coalesced into a suit of dark, spiked armor." Krayt "stopped three paces away and stood staring, as though trying to decide whether to attack Luke or speak to him." Krayt is "No one whose help" Luke wants, because he is "the dark man" Jacen "saw on the Throne of Balance."
Krayt is "the only one who can help" Luke. "With the Ones gone, there is only one way to stop Abeloth... Jedi and Sith together."
Krayt has been "watching the fight on Coruscant" which is how he "knows so much about Abeloth."
Krayt "came to fight" Abeloth.
Luke reached for a lightsaber that "did not exist beyond shadows." He tried to continue the motion to "deliver a blast of Force energy, but Abeloth had already launched her own attack by then, delivering a bolt of Force lightning that blasted straight through [Krayt] into Luke. He felt himself fly backward, consumed by pain, his entire being a column of blue, crackling Force flame."
Saba felt this as "a blast of fiery anguish so intense that it lifted her scales and made her fear for Master Skywalker." She sensed Abeloth "had drawn first blood."
Saba charged "into a corridor filled with the red eyes of Sith shadow-ghouls."
Abeloth's avatar "went flying backward on a bolt of Force lightning as thick as Ben's leg." Abeloth "dropped to the ground" as she was "pinned against the cobblestones by the Force lightning." Vestara continued "pouring Force lightning" into Abeloth's avatar. She further "continued to pour Force lightning" into Abeloth, and Ben "could feel the font's dark energy flowing across the courtyard."
Abeloth's eyes "flared into nests of blue lightning, which kept growing larger and flashing brighter until they finally spilled out of the sockets to engulf her whole head."
Luke "hurled another blast of Force energy" at Abeloth, then "braced to take the most devastating counterattack yet."
The blast "rocked Abeloth up on one leg, where she hung teetering over the Lake of Apparitions."
Luke's chest was a "searing ache around a fist-sized scorch hole, and his Force essence was bleeding out from a dozen smaller wounds."
Luke and Krayt "had been hurling Force attacks at her for a lifetime - or perhaps it was a mere eyeblink - and this was the firs time she had shown any reaction."
Luke attacks Abeloth in melee, "Force essence pushing into Force essence," and it's noted "the damage was done. Luke's foot went through Abeloth's knee; her leg buckled. His hand sank into her larynx, and she drew back wheezing."
Luke then grapples with Abeloth, which "was different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy."
Abeloth's tentacles "lash at" Luke's face, and Luke's "right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head."
Krayt "drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab."
"Abeloth loosed a Force blast, trying to drive the stranger off." Krayt "held tight. So did Luke, and all three went tumbling across the lake in a snarled mass of limbs and tentacles."
Luke "felt an icy twinge between his shoulder blades. The twinge became a sting, and he began to feel something cold flowing down the center of his back."
The "lashing" of Abeloth's "tentacles slowed and she began to shudder."
Krayt "rolled up on his feet and jerked them all to a halt."
Krayt "seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head."
Luke believes he is "being betrayed by a Force-draining technique."
"Still holding Abeloth tight," Luke "kicked a foot through the stranger's knee. The joint buckled."
After exchanging words, "the cold stinging began to subside, and Luke realized the stranger was not pulling as hard. Abeloth continued to struggle, slipping a pair of tentacles around Luke's throat and trying to tear herself free. But she was growing weak faster than Luke."
"The draining seemed to continue for days; then the stranger threw back his head and screamed in anguish."
"Shiny black Force energy began to pour from the SIth's wounds into the lake, spreading outward around them in an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss. Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized he was not being betrayed - the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke."
Abeloth gets free of Luke, "ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake."
Abeloth "began to roll her head around, gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke's arm or the stranger's - anything she could reach."
Luke then "pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control."
Luke "urged" Krayt to "Pull harder!"
"The red flow in the eyes of the shadow-ghouls faded suddenly to pink, and openings began to appear in their staggered-gauntlet formation." After cutting through a shadow ghoul, it "instantly grew a replacement."
Saba points out that the shadow-ghouls are "growing slower."
Saba suspected the change in the ghouls "was a good sign." The Jedi realized "it was possible to temporarily weaken at least one of Abeloth's avatars by killing another. Kill one, weaken the others."
Abeloth "had only a single Force presence, shared by her avatars, so harming any of her avatars would make it easier to defeat all of them."
"Assuming that the shadow-ghouls were being animated by Abeloth-and Saba saw no other possibility-then they were growing weaker because Luke was succeeding in the Maw."
The "eyes of the ghouls were still visible, and there were at least a dozen pairs glaring out of the darkness ahead."
Abeloth's Keshiri avatar "was trembling in agony." Her shoulder "had been so badly scorched it looked like a burned nerf toast."
"But she was still standing," and "Vestara had hit her with a bolt of Force lightning powerful enough to take out a Canderous-class hovertank. Still, the avatar had returned to her feet the instant Vestara had been carried too far away from the Font of Power to continue drawing on its power."
Vestara's eyes were "dulled by Force overload."
"Ben opened himself to the Force completely, shielding himself from the Font of Power's darkness by drawing its energies through the power of all he loved in the galaxy." "The Force came pouring into Ben from all sides, irresistible and pure, a flood of light and purpose that no being in the galaxy could deny. He felt himself become the Force, a swirl of power and energy, and he focused all that he was on the approaching Keshiri, hitting her with a Force blast that would have knocked a frigate out of orbit."
"The blast caught the avatar square in the chest and rocked her shoulders back at least a couple of centimeters. She paused almost noticeably before she took another step."
"Ben staggered back, exhausted."
Ben sent a section of broken pillar "spinning toward the back of the avatar's head."
Vestara "unleashed another fork of Force lightning, this one far less powerful than when she had been drawing on the font's power."
Abeloth "caught the lightning bolt in the palm of her hand, and its white-hot energy dwindled to a spark. But the pillar kept coming, striking the back of her head with a sickening thud and sending a bloody spray of skull and brain all the way across the courtyard to splatter Ben and Vestara's legs."
"The avatar did not instantly drop dead. She staggered a few steps forward, carried by the momentum of the impact, then raised her smashed head to reveal that one eye had been knocked free of the socket and was now dangling on her cheek."
"The other eye fixed its gaze on Ben."
Ben "felt himself flying back into the arcade." Then, "a tremendous crack sounded inside his skull, and his head exploded into dark pain."
"Abeloth lay tangled in Luke's arms, a writhing mass of Force energy that had suddenly gone limp a second or a day ago, only to explode an hour or a nanosecond later into a flailing tempest that had sent them all rolling and bouncing across the Lake of Apparition's dark waters. The stranger was tumbling with them, his hand still buried in Abeloth's chest, now wailing in agony as gleaming black Force energy steamed from his wounds."
Luke then "spun them all around so that his feet were toward the shore. He planted his feet against a moss hummock and kicked off - and sent them all somersaulting back toward the center of the lake. Abeloth stopped struggling and seemed to shrink in his arms, and Luke dared to think that maybe, just maybe she had finally lost hope, that they had exhausted her to the point that she was no longer capable of fighting."
"Then she was gone, leaving the stranger and Luke with nothing between them but twenty centimeters of space and the stump of the Sith's hand, now pointed at Luke's chest and still drawing Force energy, draining it not from Abeloth now, but directly from Luke."
"They stayed like that for an eternity, a void of cold nothingness growing inside Luke as the stranger continued to hang in the air above, draining him."
"Luke started to bring his hand up, intending to hit the stranger with a Force blast. But before he could loose it, the Sith's feet dropped to the water's surface, and he raised his stump and pointed toward the far end of the lake."
Abeloth was "backing into the Mists of Forgetfulness - with the stranger's wrist still protruding from her chest."
Luke yells "stop her!" at Krayt, but "left the sentence unfinished as a fountain of oily black Force energy erupted from the protruding wrist. Abeloth's mouth gaped open, and her piercing shriek broke over the lake, reverberating across the water like a clap of thunder."
Krayt was "pointing in her direction, using the Force to draw his missing hand back toward its stump."
"Abeloth did not come dancing in to counterattack, did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning. She did not have time for such tactics. Luke doubted she would have fled the battle in the first place if she were not already dying, and with her Force essence gushing out of her like a geyser, she had to attack now."
Next, "Abeloth was simply there in front of the stranger, driving a ball of tentacles deep into him. Luke sprang forward to help - and felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could."
"Luke attacked anyway, driving an elbow strike into the side of her head. As before, there was no crunching, no physical sense of impact, only Force energy plowing through Force energy, sending waves of pain and damage rolling through them both. Luke sensed his elbow come free as it pushed out the other side of Abeloth's head. Then she simply fell away, her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the stranger ... each clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence."
Krayt "collapsed with a gaping hole in his chest. Luke felt his own form grow limp and weak, and he sensed his mouth falling open to scream, then his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath."
"Jaina had heard death screams many times before," and "that was the kind of scream she had just heard from" Luke.
The shadow-ghouls "were barely shadows anymore. Their eyes had paled to white, and they moved so slowly that it was easy to dance past."
"And even when one of them did make contact, there was no life draining or pain."
"Clearly, Master Skywalker had robbed Abeloth of much of her strength. But Saba feared that he had also been greatly weakened, for she had not sensed him reaching out to let her know of his success."
Saba "reached for him in the Force, but there was nothing... no hint of whether he was relieved or in pain."
Abeloth's tentacles "stretched toward her, already pulsing with the dark Force essence that Abeloth intended to pump into Saba - that she needed to pump into Saba if she was to take a new avatar and escape to recover from the wounds that she had already suffered in the Maw."
"The Lake of Apparitions was neither warm nor cold, still nor roiling. It simply was, beyond time and sensation, beyond fear or desire or duty. It embodied surrender and attainment, death and immortality, and Luke had never felt more ready to slip below its dark surface and join his beloved Mara, to wrap himself in her liquid embrace and let the Depths of Eternity wash away the anguish of his wounds, the ache of his lonely despair."
"But something would not let him sink."
"He lay on the water for a year or a minute, hurt and exhausted, watching Abeloth’s pale form vanish."
"And still Luke did not sink. He was too weak to rise, and he could feel nothing of himself except the aching void Abeloth had torn in his chest. It occurred to him that he might well be dying, and it was not a thought that brought him any fear."
"Then he saw a hand gripping the back of his biceps and realized that she was floating beneath him, preventing him from sinking."
Luke said: “Mara, I’m wounded … badly. Abeloth took something out of me.”
Mara replies: “'She wounded him, too.' Mara’s other hand rose out of the water and pointed past Luke’s head, toward the tattooed Sith who had helped Luke kill Abeloth. The stranger was on his feet, limping toward the far shore with both hands clutched to his chest. 'If he can do it, so can you.'”
"Luke forced himself to sit upright. The effort made his head spin and his whole being ache, but he refused to collapse back into the water."
Luke "had no idea of the Sith’s true identity, but it did not seem wise to let him return to the physical galaxy alone."
Jacen says: “That’s ridiculous. Their injuries may be different.” and “Besides, Sith are stronger. They have the dark side.”
Luke asks if Krayt is “The dark man of your vision?”, "The one you sacrificed yourself to stop?”
Jacen responds: “I saw only one,”, “And you’re letting him win.”
Krayt "stopped and whirled, and Luke found himself preparing to dodge a fork of Force lightning. But the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke, and Luke could see that his entire form was shuddering. Instead of attacking, the Sith just stood staring at them, one eye shining yellow and the other an empty socket, his right arm a useless ghost of a limb."
Hearing about Luke's fight Beyond Shadows, Ben muses: "Physical injuries could usually be repaired in any decent medcenter, but beyond shadows was the realm of the spirit. No amount of surgery or bacta immersion was going to heal a wound suffered there."
Ben "hadn’t felt anything to suggest that his father had died, but he couldn’t sense his father’s presence, either. It was as though Luke Skywalker had gone missing from the Force."
Ben "could tell by the heavy odor of antiseptic and bacta salve that his father was in bad shape. He reached out in the Force, trying to find some hint of his father’s condition, and felt the lukewarm presence of a non-sentient being—or a Jedi so deep in a healing trance that he appeared to be in a coma."
Luke "lay secured in a bunk along the cabin’s back wall, with a breathing tube down his throat and half a dozen IV catheters secured to his arms, neck, and legs. A huge bandage covered the right side of his chest, and while his skin was not dry or flaky, it had turned the color of ash. Whatever Jaina was thinking about Vestara, she was telling the truth about Ben’s father. Luke Skywalker was close to death."
Ben "was going to fight to keep Luke Skywalker alive for as long as possible."
About Luke's condition: “I want to see the other patient first.” Ben hooked the mask’s retainer loops over his ears, then asked, “What’s his condition?” “Grave,” the droid replied. “Unexplained coma, unclassified rapid-onset infection, and massive chest trauma—due to loss of second thoracic rib and superior lobe of the right lung.” Ben frowned. “Trauma due to the loss of a rib and a lung lobe?” he asked. “Isn’t the loss of parts usually the result of trauma, not the cause?”
Further, it's stated: “I didn’t say the injury made sense.” The droid stepped back, giving Ben a clear path to his father’s side. “The cause of the injury appears to be the spontaneous ejection of the superior lobe. I found nothing to suggest the primary cause.” “No shrapnel wounds or internal burns?” Ben asked. “Had I found either, I wouldn’t have said ‘spontaneous ejection.’
It's further noted: "Ben went over to the bunk and grew even more alarmed. Even with the tape over the lids, it was clear that his father’s eyes were sunken—in fact, the sockets looked empty. And his chest bandage was stained with circles of yellow and green ichor, which suggested an infection far nastier than any normal complication. Most worrisome of all, however, was the fist-sized basin in the center of the bandage. It looked like his father had taken a bolt from a blaster cannon, and Ben had trouble understanding what could have happened beyond shadows to cause such an injury to a physical body."
It's said that Abeloth is dead "as much as that is possible."
It's noted that after recovering in a medical center that Luke's "entire body ached with fever, and his atrophied legs trembled with weakness. But the greatest anguish was in his chest, where he could still feel Abeloth’s balled tentacle—an empty sick heat that he thought might stay with him for the rest of his life."
Luke had "a brush with death."
"Luke’s semi-healed chest wound began to ache." and "He could still feel her cold tentacle writhing in the emptiness of his chest wound."
"Even three months after awakening from his coma—or healing trance, or whatever it had been—Luke still looked pale and weak, and his pain was a constant dull ache in the Force. But his suffering did not diminish from the warmth of his smile, and Jaina could feel how happy he was for her."
November 3rd 2022, 6:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Beyond Shadows Fighting Mechanics
- Beyond Shadows, Force users are described as "a manifestation of Force energy that embody the essence in both mind and form." That essence is "more real and tangible than the flesh-and-blood" body usually inhabited. It is, in other words, the "spirit," "Force presence" or "swirl in the living Force that animates the physical body" of a Force user.
- While Luke's lightsaber "did not exist beyond shadows", he could still "deliver a blast of Force energy." Abeloth mitigated the damage of numerous "Force attacks" as it is noted that after a particular blast it was the "first time she had shown any reaction" compared to prior attacks. In this case, the attack "rocked Abeloth up on one leg," showing that sufficiently powerful attacks can move Essences against their will.
- In addition, sufficiently strong attacks can cause "wounds," including a "searing ache around a fist-sized scorch hole." Not only that, such attacks can cause "Force essence" to "bleed out" from these wounds. In melee combat, described as "Force essence pushing into Force essence," "damage" is done to the Essence. To the Force users, the damage is experienced much like it is normally: "Luke's foot went through Abeloth's knee; her leg buckled. His hand sank into her larynx, and she drew back wheezing." - Abeloth's leg buckles without any physical joints, she wheezes in a realm without oxygen.
- With regards to pain specifically: pain experienced Beyond Shadows is very real. For example, at numerous points the sensation of extreme temperature, hot or cold, is experienced: "fiery anguish," "searing ache," "scorch hole," "an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss," "wailing in agony as gleaming black Force energy steamed from his wounds," "icy twinge," "feel something cold," "the cold stinging," "a void of cold nothingness growing inside Luke," and "felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish."
- Not only temperature, but the sensation of sight, even losing sight, is experienced: Luke's "right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head."
- Grappling is "different beyond shadows. There were no pressure points or joint locks or choke holds, only his presence merging with hers, binding him to her in a writhing knot of energy."" Further wounds can be caused when "ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake." Force users can also fight to maintain these knots, like when "Abeloth loosed a Force blast, trying to drive the stranger off," Krayt "held tight. So did Luke, and all three went tumbling across the lake in a snarled mass of limbs and tentacles."
- Fatigue is also present Beyond Shadows, as noted when "Luke dared to think that maybe, just maybe she had finally lost hope, that they had exhausted her to the point that she was no longer capable of fighting." Moreover, Luke has "felt his own form grow limp and weak," "his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath." In fact, once fatigued enough, Luke "was too weak to rise." You can see how much harder it is to do even basic things when fatigued, like when Luke "forced himself to sit upright. The effort made his head spin and his whole being ache, but he refused to collapse back into the water."
- The reverse is also true: fatigue can be reversed, such as when Luke through an effort of will "felt his energy and his determination come rushing back." Also, "growing stronger" via something like Force Drain is possible. Or in Abeloth's case, she could "escape to recover from the wounds that she had already suffered in the Maw."
- In terms of the extent to which things like damage, pain, wounds, bleeding etc are tangible and real Beyond Shadows, it has been described as "tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could." Moreover, melee combat is described as "Force energy plowing through Force energy, sending waves of pain and damage rolling through them both."
- In terms of the threat to life, damage sustained Beyond is repeatedly described as follows: "Abeloth grew weaker," "she was growing weak faster than Luke," "weaken them with a blast of Force lightning," "felt his own form grow limp and weak," "his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath." This weakening is not just a form of fatigue, although it also causes that. In Luke's case: "he could feel nothing of himself except the aching void Abeloth had torn in his chest. It occurred to him that he might well be dying." He also states: “Mara, I’m wounded … badly. Abeloth took something out of me.” Ben adds: "Physical injuries could usually be repaired in any decent medcenter, but beyond shadows was the realm of the spirit. No amount of surgery or bacta immersion was going to heal a wound suffered there." Or, take the case of Abeloth, who was "already dying" from being Force-Drained, which is why she "fled the battle." After her Force essence was "gushing out of her like a geyser, she had to attack now" because she "did not have time" for anything else; she had been sufficiently wounded that her death was imminent and all she could do was try to take her enemies with her.
In short, then: fights Beyond Shadows are reflective of the sheer power of Force users. Not only that, they reflect the sheer power of Force users more accurately than a physical fight ever could. Essence fights are, more than anything else, a pure clash of power with little to no intrusive variables. Physical battles are subject to a number intrusive variables such as:
- Bodily harm: You can more easily circumvent someone's power by attacking vital systems and organs: the heart, airways, knock them unconscious with an impact, break their bones, poison them or even the threat of gravity. Consider the example of a fight being ended with a Force push because one party was KO'd by hitting their head off a wall, or they were thrown off a cliff. Now consider if that would happen on a flat plane with no walls or cliffs. You don't need to match, contend with or exhaust the full, variable-free power of your opponent to win by any of these methods... but you do need to do that to win Beyond Shadows.
- Use of weapons: Lightsaber duels, while somewhat correlated to raw power, are far more random and subject to things like stylistic differences, tactics, environmental use and skill levels compared to "Force energy plowing through Force energy." Moreover a duel can end with one fatal stroke or one dismemberment, whereas Beyond Shadows attack will often go "straight through" the Force User, which damages them, but also forces the Force users to constantly retest each other's power.
- The environment: gravity, throwing things at each other, obstacles, taking cover, distractions: all things that can interrupt sheer power comparisons. Beyond Shadows, there is nowhere to run and nowhere to hide, and you can even float mid-air.
While it's true that a Beyond Shadows fight will not play out similarly to the same fight in the physical world, that is completely unimportant to this argument. In this argument, all that is being measured is Krayt's sheer Force power. And so, because that is the sole metric of interest, it means Beyond Shadows is the ideal environment to measure Krayt's sheer power. After deducing the sheer power difference between Krayt and Revan, we can then make inferences about how that power difference will play into a hypothetical fight.
As established in prior sections, the gap between Tenebrae and EOO Revan is a oneshot/instantly defeat/easily defeat/pin with the Force gap. Valkorion is the boot and Revan is the insect. The following indicators all individually either prove or support the argument that the gap between Krayt and Abeloth is closer, if not much closer.
Abeloth Failing To Defeat Krayt
- Abeloth failed to defeat Krayt with her initial Force lightning attack which left him with a "fist-sized scorch hole".
- Abeloth failed to defeat Krayt with numerous "devastating counterattacks" which left Krayt with numerous "wounds." These were counterattacks delivered after Luke and Krayt "had been hurling Force attacks at her."
- Abeloth failed to defeat Krayt with “a Force blast, trying to drive” him off.
- Abeloth failed to defeat Krayt when she "began to roll her head around, gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke's arm or the stranger's - anything she could reach."
- Abeloth failed to defeat Krayt when she “exploded into a flailing tempest.”
- Abeloth "did not come dancing in to counterattack, did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning,” because she “did not have time for such tactics.” This means that, if Abeloth did have time, this is how she would have tried to defeat Krayt, which indicates that he cannot be defeated easily; Abeloth must “counterattack,” use “tactics” and “stand off defensively and weaken” Krayt before she can subdue or defeat him.
Melee Damage Dealt To Abeloth
- Krayt "drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she writhed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab."
- Later his hand was “still buried in Abeloth's chest.” Then, Abeloth teleported away, with Krayt’s “wrist still protruding from her chest.” He “raised his stump and pointed toward” Abeloth, and then “a fountain of oily black Force energy erupted from the protruding wrist. Abeloth's mouth gaped open, and her piercing shriek broke over the lake, reverberating across the water like a clap of thunder,” as a result of Krayt "pointing in her direction, using the Force to draw his missing hand back toward its stump.” This was a result of Krayt binding him[self] to her in a writhing knot of energy, tearing her “apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could" and then “ripping the energy knot where they had joined.” When this happened, Abeloth’s shadow-ghouls "were barely shadows anymore. Their eyes had paled to white, and they moved so slowly that it was easy to dance past." Previously the “eyes of the shadow-ghouls” were “pink" and “were still visible, and there were at least a dozen pairs glaring out of the darkness ahead.” Finally, Saba notes Luke and Krayt “had robbed Abeloth of much of her strength.”
Force Draining Abeloth
- The shadow-ghouls started with "red eyes." Then, Krayt "seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head,” as he attacked her with “a Force-draining technique.” Then, Krayt “was not pulling as hard,” but “she was growing weak faster than Luke.” “The draining seemed to continue for days,” before Abeloth’s “black Force energy began to pour from the Sith's wounds.” Krayt “continued to drain Abeloth” and then began to “pull harder.” At this point, “The red flow in the eyes of the shadow-ghouls faded suddenly to pink, and openings began to appear in their staggered-gauntlet formation,” and they began “growing slower.” Saba notes that they were “growing weaker” because Luke and Krayt were “succeeding” in “harming” and “weakening” Abeloth. However, the "eyes of the ghouls were still visible, and there were at least a dozen pairs glaring out of the darkness ahead."
- Krayt had “his hand still buried in Abeloth's chest, now wailing in agony as gleaming black Force energy steamed from his wounds." Krayt at this time was “drawing Force energy” from Abeloth. Then Abeloth “was gone” as she teleports away, “backing into the Mists of Forgetfulness” It’s later revealed that Abeloth was “already dying” when she “fled the battle,” which would mean Krayt’s Force-Drain mortally wounded Abeloth.
- Krayt withstood a bolt of Force lightning from Abeloth, which "consumed" Luke with pain and rendered "his entire being a column of blue, crackling Force flame." Saba felt the Lighting as "a blast of fiery anguish" that "lifted her scales" and "made her fear for" Luke.If the audiobook is to be believed this Lightning barrage could have lasted over 15 seconds.
- Krayt withstood a "searing ache around a fist-sized scorch hole" in addition to "wounds" from Abeloth's "devastating counterattacks." In Luke's case his "Force essence was bleeding out from a dozen smaller wounds."
- Krayt withstood “Force energy plowing through Force energy, sending waves of pain and damage rolling through” his essence when he “drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth's stomach.”
Krayt withstood draining Abeloth’s “black Force energy” which was “an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss” as it “began to pour from the Sith's wounds,” “suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.”
- Krayt withstood Abeloth “gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke's arm or the stranger's - anything she could reach."
- Krayt withstood the effects of Abeloth’s “black Force energy” as he continued to Drain it into his essence “harder” than previously.
- Krayt withstood Abeloth as “a writhing mass of Force energy that had suddenly gone limp a second or a day ago, only to explode an hour or a nanosecond later into a flailing tempest that had sent them all rolling and bouncing across the Lake of Apparition's dark waters. The stranger was tumbling with them, his hand still buried in Abeloth's chest, now wailing in agony as gleaming black Force energy steamed from his wounds.”
- Krayt survived Abeloth “driving a ball of tentacles deep into him,” and “felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could,” as well as “her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the stranger ... each clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence." The resulting wound from this was “a gaping hole in his chest.” It’s further noted that it was an “aching void Abeloth had torn in his chest,” “Abeloth took something out of” Krayt and he “had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke.”
**Indicators of Parity to Luke
- Mara tells Luke that Abeloth “wounded [Krayt], too” and that if Krayt can get up from his wounds, “so can you.” This indicates that Mara thinks Krayt and Luke are similarly wounded. Next, Jacen says in response “That’s ridiculous. Their injuries may be different,” and “Besides, Sith are stronger. They have the dark side.” Jacen correlates the ability to recover from these wounds with strength in the Force, and he disputes Mara’s claim that Luke can do what Krayt can do on the basis that their injuries “may” be different. However, based on the previous analysis, Krayt and Luke’s injuries are extremely similar, as they both withstood Abeloth’s same Lightning and Abeloth’s final balled-tentacle melee attack, with the only difference being that Abeloth attacked Krayt first both times. Those two attacks make up the vast majority of the damage sustained by Luke and Krayt during the fight, and Krayt’s extremely self-damaging draining of Abeloth’s caustic essence is enough to compete with Luke’s own wounds. The similarity of their wounds is also supported by the text itself: Krayt “had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke.” So, by Mara and Jacen’s metrics, Krayt’s ability to recover after suffering very similar wounds to Luke indicates that they have parity in Force power.
- In addition, because Jacen raised the second point - “Besides, Sith are stronger. They have the dark side” - he has indicated that he thinks, regardless of their injuries and how they’ve handled them, Krayt is more powerful than Luke. He believes this because Krayt has the dark side, and while his reasoning is fallacious, the fact remains that after witnessing Luke and Krayt fighting side-by-side against Abeloth, both pushed to their very limits, nothing happened to contradict Jacen’s view. Therefore, Jacen seeing Krayt as more powerful than Luke intrinsically and then that viewpoint not being disrupted by their concurrent performances is another indicator of parity between Luke and Krayt.
- Luke was “too weak to rise” after Abeloth’s final attack, and then he “forced himself to sit upright. The effort made his head spin and his whole being ache.”
It’s repeatedly stated that Luke came very close to dying from Abeloth’s final attack: "Jaina had heard death screams many times before," and "that was the kind of scream she had just heard from" Luke. Saba ”feared that he had also been greatly weakened, for she had not sensed him reaching out to let her know of his success."
Saba "reached for him in the Force, but there was nothing... no hint of whether he was relieved or in pain." It occurred to Luke that “he might well be dying.” Ben "hadn’t felt anything to suggest that his father had died, but he couldn’t sense his father’s presence, either. It was as though Luke Skywalker had gone missing from the Force." “Luke Skywalker was close to death.” Ben "was going to fight to keep Luke Skywalker alive for as long as possible." Luke had "a brush with death." It’s also repeatedly highlighted that Luke was grievously wounded even long after the attack: Ben "could tell by the heavy odor of antiseptic and bacta salve that his father was in bad shape. He reached out in the Force, trying to find some hint of his father’s condition, and felt the lukewarm presence of a non-sentient being—or a Jedi so deep in a healing trance that he appeared to be in a coma." Luke "lay secured in a bunk along the cabin’s back wall, with a breathing tube down his throat and half a dozen IV catheters secured to his arms, neck, and legs. A huge bandage covered the right side of his chest, and while his skin was not dry or flaky, it had turned the color of ash. As Ben and the medical droid discuss: “What’s his condition?” “Grave,” the droid replied. “Unexplained coma, unclassified rapid-onset infection, and massive chest trauma—due to loss of second thoracic rib and superior lobe of the right lung.” Ben frowned. “Trauma due to the loss of a rib and a lung lobe?” he asked. “Isn’t the loss of parts usually the result of trauma, not the cause?” Further, it's stated: “I didn’t say the injury made sense.” The droid stepped back, giving Ben a clear path to his father’s side. “The cause of the injury appears to be the spontaneous ejection of the superior lobe. I found nothing to suggest the primary cause.” “No shrapnel wounds or internal burns?” Ben asked. “Had I found either, I wouldn’t have said ‘spontaneous ejection.’ It's further noted: "Ben went over to the bunk and grew even more alarmed. Even with the tape over the lids, it was clear that his father’s eyes were sunken—in fact, the sockets looked empty. And his chest bandage was stained with circles of yellow and green ichor, which suggested an infection far nastier than any normal complication. Most worrisome of all, however, was the fist-sized basin in the center of the bandage. It looked like his father had taken a bolt from a blaster cannon, and Ben had trouble understanding what could have happened beyond shadows to cause such an injury to a physical body." It's noted that after recovering in a medical center that Luke's "entire body ached with fever, and his atrophied legs trembled with weakness. But the greatest anguish was in his chest, where he could still feel Abeloth’s balled tentacle—an empty sick heat that he thought might stay with him for the rest of his life." "Luke’s semi-healed chest wound began to ache." and "He could still feel her cold tentacle writhing in the emptiness of his chest wound." "Even three months after awakening from his coma—or healing trance, or whatever it had been—Luke still looked pale and weak, and his pain was a constant dull ache in the Force. But his suffering did not diminish from the warmth of his smile, and Jaina could feel how happy he was for her." The next premise to establish is that the amount of damage your essence can withstand before you die is a direct result of your Force reserves and Force power: The Jedi realized "it was possible to temporarily weaken at least one of Abeloth's avatars by killing another. Kill one, weaken the others." Abeloth "had only a single Force presence, shared by her avatars, so harming any of her avatars would make it easier to defeat all of them." "Assuming that the shadow-ghouls were being animated by Abeloth-and Saba saw no other possibility-then they were growing weaker because Luke was succeeding in the Maw." With all that in mind, Krayt “was on his feet, limping toward the far shore with both hands clutched to his chest,” after sustaining the aforementioned wounds which are extremely comparable to Luke’s own. Therefore, given how close Luke was to dying and how terrible of a condition he was in even well after the attack, the fact Krayt not only survived but was on his feet before Luke is a strong indicator of parity in Force reserves and power: the margin for allowable power disparity relative to Krayt’s performance is extremely narrow because it would only have taken a miniscule amount of extra damage for Luke to have been killed outright or pushed past the point of recovery.
- In lieu of the prior indicator: We can infer that Abeloth is significantly more powerful than Luke or Krayt individually because to defeat her, they had to inflict damage vastly in excess of what was needed to nearly kill them. What this means is that whatever gap exists between Krayt or Luke and Abeloth, the gap that exists between Krayt and Luke themselves must by logical necessity be far narrower than the Abeloth gap - they’re much closer to each other than they are Abeloth. And since such a narrow gap indicates parity, this gives Krayt another parity indicator to Luke.
- After the fight, Krayt "stopped and whirled, and Luke found himself preparing to dodge a fork of Force lightning. But the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke, and Luke could see that his entire form was shuddering. Instead of attacking the Sith just stood staring at them.” The text implies here that Krayt had the intention to attack Luke, but “instead” chose not to because he was “in no better shape to fight than Luke,” that is to say, in such poor shape that fighting risks mutual death. What this would mean is Krayt is very confident about his chances against Luke in a fight, and that the only thing that stopped him from initiating one was his poorly condition at the time. This is despite seeing Luke’s obviously impressive performance against Abeloth.
**Because Krayt has indicators of parity to Luke, it means all of Luke’s indicators related to Abeloth can be used to inform Krayt’s connection to Abeloth. Luke was able to restrain Abeloth by grappling with her, so that would be a massive indicator that Krayt would not be easily defeated by Abeloth.
- Despite Krayt "watching the fight on Coruscant" and "knowing so much about Abeloth," he's very confident about his ability to take her down alongside Luke. He "came to fight" and believes he is "the only one who can help." In addition, he frames it as a team effort: "With the Ones gone, there is only one way to stop Abeloth... Jedi and Sith together." This level of confidence in his own ability would suggest that Krayt believes he is too powerful for Abeloth to stomp/oneshot etc with just the presence of one other Force user. It would imply that he doesn't feel he needs to be carried to victory, but rather he himself is a vital component, and also that he has the ability to survive against an Abeloth who only needs to split her attention in half (rather than divide it by 11 different people), or even during moments where he is separated from Luke.
- It's stated in the Essential Reader's Companion that Luke "does recognize the stranger as a powerful Sith." It's further stated that they "band together to battle a common threat, engaging in combat with Abeloth in the astral plane Beyond Shadows." Further, "Together Luke and the stranger slay Abeloth." The ERC also states that Krayt "helps Luke defeat Abeloth." While these quotes by themselves do not prove my arguments, they are a summary of the events published in a licensed source. The summary itself does not contradict my argument, but in some ways adds light support to it, like Krayt being recognised as "powerful" by Luke and the emphasis on how they "band together" and slay Abeloth "together." If a source has the perfect opportunity to contradict my argument, and then doesn't, but instead adds supporting elements to it, it can only increase the strength of that argument. At the very least, the ERC's interpretation of the events do not preclude my interpretation.
The Gap Between Reborn Krayt and Apoc Krayt
Legacy Krayt > Apoc KraytWhile Legacy Krayt's physical condition has deteriorated further than Apoc Krayt's, the power of his essence, his knowledge of the Force, his experience, and his combat techniques have all improved. This creates an intermediary scaling link between Reborn Krayt and Apoc in terms of all of these factors.
- In the Legacy Era Campaign Guide it's stated "the Sith are secretly growing more powerful."
- The Star Wars Legends Epic Collection: Legacy Vol. 1 states: "As a century passed, a new breed of the evil Sith grew strong in hiding."
- Insider 113 states that Krayt "perfected his combat techniques over many decades."
- In (Legacy #0) it is stated: "a new Sith Order was secretly forming on the planet Korriban, infusing themselves with the dark knowledge found in the ancient Sith temples there, honing a plan to retake the galaxy."
- In Legacy #0.5 it's stated: "a new Sith Order was secretly forming on the planet Korriban, infusing themselves with the dark knowledge found in the ancient Sith temples there, honing a plan to retake the galaxy."
- In The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia it's stated that "Darth Krayt turned his anger into power." Legacy #5 depicts this as Krayt exploding with Force Lightning, saying "This is not the truth and it is not my destiny! I forge my own way. I walk a new path, and you will not serve me -- begone! I will find other teachings. I will find another way."
- Galactic Files states that "Darth Krayt has existed long enough to fight many wars, switching sides from Jedi to Sith over the years." Krayt states that he has "killed thousands of opponents" since the Clone Wars. The only war in which Krayt could have fought on the side of the Sith is the "Sith-Imperial War" between the Jedi-supported Galactic Alliance and the Sith-supported Imperial Remnant, which the Sith fought in between 128-130ABY. As we know, a war of such scale has precedent for leading to power growth.
- Insider 113 states: "In the year 137 after the Battle of Yavin, Darth Krayt could no longer ignore the deterioration of his ancient body." This is likely a reference to the fact, starting in 130ABY, Krayt chose to remain out of stasis in an effort to appear strong as Emperor: "Perhaps a healing meditation, but I cannot go back into stasis. I am Emperor now and I must be seen -- and seen as strong." Wyyrlok states that Krayt is "iron willed" because of this, and it's stated that "Stasis kept Krayt alive during those times when his own dark will failed him." Now, to ignore means: "To refuse to pay attention to; disregard." The only way Krayt could ignore his deterioration is by continuing to grow in power so that his "dark will" can sustain him. It cannot be a case of Krayt simply drawing more deeply on the Force to compensate for being out of stasis, because in doing so he wouldn't be "ignoring" his condition, he would be directly counteracting it.
- As it's stated in Legacy #22 the growth of the dark side makes Krayt more powerful: "The fear all around us. It feeds the dark side. I feel it flow into me, giving me strength." Additionally, while this concept is repeated almost universally, I'll add that it's a concept George Lucas included in the Mortis episodes of TCW in which he was far more heavily involved than anything other than the films and was literally word of god: "The balance has been broken." "As the balance in this world crumbles, so shall war escalate in your galaxy." "As my son has descended into the dark side, so have the Sith gained strength." Now, between 44ABY and 137ABY, the dark side grew massively. This had already started in 44ABY: "The galaxy was tipping toward darkness before their eyes, and as far as Luke could see, the Jedi and their allies were the only ones capable of restoring the Balance. If they did not dedicate themselves completely to the light, all would be lost." Again: "the Balance itself tipping ever deeper into darkness." As of 137ABY, this was said about the Balance of the Force: "Obi-Wan Kenobi once called the period between the Fall of the Republic and the rise of the Galactic Empire the "Dark Times." Had he foreseen the Legacy era, he might have called the period defined by Palpatine's rise to power something else. Indeed, the Legacy era is rife with the same tyranny, opression, violence, and danger that flourished under Palpatine's rule. However, in the future of the Star Wars galaxy, the Empire is openly ruled by a Sith Lord and his dark minions, the Jedi have once again been hunted nearly to extinction, and the heir to the Skywalker name is a death stick-using bounty hunter who rejects the Force and everything associated with it. Times have never been grimmer than they are under Darth Krayt's Empire." "In the Legacy Era, there is no balance to the Force. Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere. With Sith Lords in every sector and at the heads of Imperial space fleets, the influence of the dark side is stronger than ever, and far more visible." "The dark side clouds everything, and the galaxy's future is harder to see than ever before." "The time period surrounding the Sith-Imperial War and its aftermath is a dark time indeed, with a shadow of evil cloaking everything. As much as any other time, the dark side of the Force holds sway in the Legacy era, and heroes going on adventures during this time are likely to encounter darkness at every turn. A Legacy era campaign should emphasize the fact that the galaxy has become a bleak and oppressive place, and a general sense of doom and dread pervades every world, from Coruscant to Tatooine. Under the rule of the Sith and the Empire, the galaxy has become a less enlightened place, and evil rears its head even on the most peaceful planets. In any given adventure, the heroes may encounter Sith Lords or their vile spies, gangsters and crime lords whose power grows by the day, and bounty hunters who turn Jedi over to the Empire with little care for the fact that every Jedi death darkens the galaxy that much more." "Age of Shadow." "The Legacy era is a time of darkness and volence in the galaxy not seen since the rise of Palpatine's Empire." "During the Legacy era, the dark side holds power throughout the galaxy. It's more than just a function of having the Sith in power; the Jedi have been diminished and everywhere violence, hatred and selfishness rule supreme. If the influence of the dark side waxes and wanes, during the Legacy era it reaches peaks unseen except during the grimmest times in galactic history." "One can emphasize the pervasiveness of the dark side in a variety of ways [...] Next, introduce sites and locales where the power of the dark side is palpable; set adventures at the sites of great battles in which the Sith and the Empire were victorious over the Galactic Alliance and the Jedi, or places where many Jedi were slain in a single attack by bounty hunters or the Empire. Introduce locations where the dark side manifests itself in the form of visions or even physical danger, such as the cave on Dagobah, but have such locations appear in multiple adventures. Give the heroes little chance to visit safe havens, and do not be afraid to repeatedly tell Force-sensitive heroes that they feel constant discomfort at the strength of the dark side at various adventuring locales." "Coruscant under the direct rule of the Sith has become a dark and forbidding place, and while it is still the center of galactic civilization, it has become more like a shadowy fortress world than the cosmopolitan home of Imperial nobility." "The citizens of Coruscant live constantly in the frightening shadow of the Sith." "The galaxy has been plunged into darkness once more, and the atrocities of the Rebellion era have returned, this time at the hands of a Dark Lord of the Sith who wears his title overtly, letting the galaxy know that, while the Empire is their government, the Sith are their masters."
Reborn Krayt > Legacy/Apoc KraytReborn Krayt is the most powerful iteration of Krayt in every way, and is saddled with none of the physical drawbacks of Legacy or Apoc Krayt. Here are all the ways Reborn Krayt is superior to his past selves:
- Krayt states: "I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied. The dark side of the Force lives and manifests itself through me! I reach into the dark side now and send ripples through it to all who serve it -- know that I live!"
- This power multiplication and embodiment of the dark side is substantiated in many ways: first, it's stated that "Throughout the dark side, the Force of Darth Krayt's will -- alive, dominant, and seductive -- is felt in the minds of the Sith from Korriban... to Mustafar... to Coruscant... and all planets in between. The sense of his presence invigorates and brings a fierce joy to the Sith." These are the Sith who "serve" the dark side which "lives and manifests itself" through Krayt. To invigorate means "To impart vigor, strength, or vitality to; animate." Krayt, quite literally, makes the Sith stronger by his presence in and by sending "ripples through" the dark side. Conversely, the dark side makes Krayt stronger, as is stated in Legacy #22: "The fear all around us. It feeds the dark side. I feel it flow into me, giving me strength."
- Moreover, bonds within the Force can be drawn on as a source of strength, as established when Wolf encouraged Cade to draw on his bonds within the Force as a source of power: "No. You must use the Light side, Cade." "Not... strong... enough! More power in the dark side!" "That is a lie. Trust the bonds you once felt within the Force when you were my apprentice. The bonds you shared with your father, who walked firmly in the Light. They are still strong in you! The Force brought me here to this place, light years from where I was, to be here with you at this moment -- how can you not trust in the power of the Light Side above the dark? How can you not trust in the power of the Force?" An identifier of a strong Force Bond is the ability to sense when the other party has died: "I would have felt his death in the Force. When he just pulled me back from death's edge, it strengthened the bonds we share as Master and Padawan. He's alive. I know it." Krayt has a Force Bond with the dark side itself and any who "serve" it, which is proven by the fact when Krayt dies everyone who has a connection to the dark side immediately senses it. Antares Draco, a non-Sith, sensed when Krayt "rippled" through the dark side upon his return: "No... no! He's dead!" "Ha! You feel it also! The mind of Lord Krayt reverberating through the dark side! Final proof, Antares! The dark side exists in you!" He then sensed a "dark shudder in the Force" as Krayt died: "Wait, my liege! Wait! Did you feel it?! A dark shudder in the Force! Krayt is dead!" The Sith Trooper's sensed Krayt's death and tried to "follow him into the abyss." In contrast, those without a connection to the dark side, such as the Jedi, cannot sense Krayt's death. K'Kruhk relies on "reports" that Krayt is dead, and Shado Vao only hears about Krayt's death after a Sith Trooper announces it: "Lord Krayt is dead! Long live the Sith--" "Krayt is... dead?!" Shado later asked for confirmation if he really died: "You're certain Krayt was dead?" The multiplication of the dark side's power and the number of Force Bonds available to "serve" Krayt is proven by the Sith Troopers. The Sith Troopers are more "powerful" than the One Sith, are "undefeatable," and are "culled from those strongest in the Force shortly after their birth." With them becoming active within the dark side, they would make it stronger and thus feed Krayt's power.
- The extent of the dark side multiplication is revealed by writer Jan Duursema, who states that upon Krayt's return "whatever was corrupted by the Sith being in power is corrupted a hundred times more. Visually, I want to present places like Coruscant as having been influenced by this dark side corruption, a tarnished jewel at the center of galactic power. It feels more like Korriban now than Coruscant. The entire galaxy has become a dark and wary place like every being is holding their breath to see what will happen next." This is not just Jan's opinion, but a clarification and insight into what is depicted in Legacy: War #1, where it's stated: "Coruscant. Eight years ago it was the jewel of the galaxy. Now, Krayt's dragon ships hang in the polluted sky, casting predatory shadows of war. Coruscant's citizens have forfeited their souls." To pollute means: "To render impure or morally harmful; corrupt." To forfeit means: "To lose or give up (something)" or "To subject to seizure as a forfeit." The soul is the "part of humans regarded as immaterial, immortal, separable from the body at death, capable of moral judgment, and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state." In other words, simply by arriving on Coruscant, Krayt and his Sith Troopers morally corrupted the entire planet and its trillions-strong population to the dark side, making Coruscant "feel more like Korriban" due to "the influence of dark side corruption" as well as darkening "the entire galaxy."
- Krayt states: "I have become so much more than you can know, traitor."
- Legacy War #1 states: "What no one knows is that Darth Krayt is returning better than before, with a new army of unquestionably obedient Sith Troopers..."
- Krayt states: "Death is not an ending, boy -- but it is a passageway to something greater."
- Krayt states: "You fled our last fight -- and I am so much more now than I was then."
- Insider 121 states: "Speaking of Krayt, his surprise resurrection freed him from his reliance on the Yuuzhan Vong biotechnology that allowed the Clone Wars veteran-then known as A'Sharad Hett-to sustain his ancient body. The new Krayt is old but even stronger than before..." and "In Legacy: War we see Krayt free of the Vong parasites and at the most powerful he's ever been." and "It's as if the Yuuzhan Vong biots were dampening his power." "He is a being who has defeated age and disease. He has cheated death and believes himself to be immortal. He is the Krayt who would have been, had the Yuuzhan Vong not experimented on him."
November 3rd 2022, 6:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
The Gap Between Reborn Krayt and SOR Revan
Highest Possible Gap(1) Abeloth is in a different tier of power than Tenebrae.
(2) Abeloth cannot easily defeat Apoc Krayt, while Tenebrae can easily defeat EOO Revan.
(3) EOO Revan is multiple times more powerful than SOR Revan.
(4) Reborn Krayt is multiple times more powerful than Apoc Krayt.
Minimum Necessary Gap(1) Abeloth >/= Tenebrae.
(2) Abeloth needs more effort to defeat Apoc Krayt than Tenebrae needs to defeat EOO Revan.
(3) EOO Revan > SOR Revan.
(4) Reborn Krayt > Apoc Krayt.
LFL OptimisationThis argument, under CC, should carry considerably more weight than any of the prior arguments made by myself or KoB. I’ll briefly explain why, starting from a “recency” perspective. Sources cited include:
- Legacy: War, Dec 2010-May 2011
- The Clone Wars Season 3 Episodes 15, 16, 17, January-February, 2011
- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse, March, 2012
- Insider 132: March, 2012
- Essential Reader’s Companion: October, 2012
- Galactic Files, 2012-2013
- Galactic Architecture 101 and the History of Centerpoint Station, January 24, 2014
- Star Wars The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan, December, 2014
- Star Wars The Old Republic: Echoes of Oblivion, December, 2020
Compare that to the sources KoB cited which are vital to his argument:
- Legacy of the Force Preview 5, April 3, 2008
- Sith Showdown, May 7, 2008
- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide, August 19, 2008
- Legacy Era Campaign Guide, March 17, 2009
- Revan, November 15, 2011
- Galactic Files, 2012-2013
KoB only cited two sources which even come after 2010. The Revan novel was just for the Mandalorian Wars Revan > Traya quote which has already been co-opted by my stats argument, and the same has happened with Galactic Files. Every other source cited came out before Reborn Krayt, Apoc Krayt, SOR Revan or EOO Revan even existed. Aside from the debunks I gave for each source, the simple fact that they pre-date the most relevant and recent versions of Krayt and Revan means the comparisons made using them are of less priority than those made by the most recent sources.
Frequency? Well generally speaking nearly every claim I made has numerous citations supporting it, whereas something like the Sith Showdown quote is said once and never repeated, and KoB’s other sources actually contradict each other three ways: Galactic Files has Traya > Revan, Saga has Traya = Revan, and the novel has Revan > Traya.
Visibility? SWTOR is the biggest Legends project of the last decade by far, Fate of the Jedi and Legacy are main-line novel and comic series, and TCW is possibly second only to the films in viewership. Can we say the same about RPG campaign guides, obscure discontinued Wizards of the Coast articles you need to access via the internet archive and trading cards?
Officiality? TCW is obviously of far higher value than anything KoB cited by virtue of Lucas’ direct involvement and it’s T-Canon status. And I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that there was more LFL review involved in publishing main-line novels or comics like FotJ and Legacy than there was in WotC articles and RPG Campaign Guides.
Conformity? Aside from just citing T-Canon directly, Abeloth’s character in FotJ has had far more input and consideration from LFL and higher canon sources (Filoni acting on George’s wishes) than anything KoB cited, and again, citations from Legacy and FotJ are going to be forced to be more compatible with higher canon than WotC articles or RPG Campaign Guides.
A Margin of SafetyBased on the above arguments, the claim: “Darth Krayt is more powerful than SOR Revan to the extent needed for him to win a fight” is thoroughly supported by CC-optimised arguments. This claim itself is conservative and has a huge margin of safety; I can be very wrong about many parts of my argument and the above claim would still be supported. The minimum amount of support needed for the argument has been vastly exceeded. To illustrate my point:
Imagine you need enough money to survive for 1 year.
Imagine if you saved enough money for 6 years.
If you somehow lost 5 years worth of savings… you would still survive for 1 year.
That’s what a margin of safety is, and this argument has one. For example:
- Let’s say Tenebrae is just as strong as Abeloth; the argument still stands
- Let’s say SOR Revan is just as strong as EOO Revan; the argument still stands
- Let’s say Apoc Krayt is just as strong as Reborn Krayt; the argument still stands
- Let’s say the gap between Revan and Valk is the same as the gap between Krayt and Abeloth; the argument still stands.
2 and 3 are virtually impossible to argue, and 1 and 4 are extremely difficult to argue, which means the probability of Revan even being equal to Krayt is abysmal. And that’s a Revan who has all of his scaling as presented by KoB left perfectly intact; this argument captures the most impressive conception of Revan and thus isn’t affected by anything KoB could post for Revan that doesn’t directly attack the argument itself.
- Sponsored content
Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum