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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 12:11 pm
Who wins?
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 12:31 pm
Krayt imo
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 1:37 pm
Revan can't compete with the big boys
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 1:44 pm
Krayt makes him a slave like Vitiate did.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 3:33 pm
Krayt obviously.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 3:34 pm
Plagueis beats both, but Krayt beats Revan.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 3:40 pm
Depends on how close FOTJ Krayt is to Luke. I don't really buy Krayt being anywhere in Luke's vicinity to be honest, and other than that, all he has is growth from a fight with Kenobi (in which he lost, fairly badly as well). I can see Revan taking this.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 3:44 pm
@IG wrote:Depends on how close FOTJ Krayt is to Luke. I don't really buy Krayt being anywhere in Luke's vicinity to be honest, and other than that, all he has is growth from a fight with Kenobi (in which he lost, fairly badly as well). I can see Revan taking this.
So how do you reconcile the fight against Abeloth?
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 3:45 pm
@IG wrote:Depends on how close FOTJ Krayt is to Luke. I don't really buy Krayt being anywhere in Luke's vicinity to be honest, and other than that, all he has is growth from a fight with Kenobi (in which he lost, fairly badly as well). I can see Revan taking this.

Krayt is not anywhere near Luke, but his ability to contribute to the Beyond Shadows fight was still impressive. Abeloth couldn't get him off her with TK (albeit while wrestling Luke and having Krayt gut her from the side), and Krayt's Force drain was able to significantly damage her, albeit over an extended period of time. Of course, Krayt never has to directly contest an undistracted Abeloth the same way Luke does throughout FotJ, and just saying that he can contribute with Luke as the "tank" while surviving the same attacks as Luke (which just indicates a lower limit for both, not parity or near-parity) isn't enough to put him anywhere near either of their levels (aka Luke's response to being drained by Krayt was just bemused annoyance).

That being said, I don't hold Revan anywhere near Luke or the Abeloth Avatar either. Krayt's ability to contest with (kinda) Obi Wan massively before his prime has to be considered as well.


Last edited by The Ellimist on February 9th 2020, 3:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 3:46 pm
@IG Krayt arguably did more in the Abeloth fight.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 3:46 pm
@The Ellimist Which is fair, I doubt you'll sway me, and I doubt I can sway you on this, but you make a fair point.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 4:01 pm
@IG wrote:@The Ellimist Which is fair, I doubt you'll sway me, and I doubt I can sway you on this, but you make a fair point.

Well, it's tough to say because it seems like spirits Beyond Shadows have way more durability, so the fact that Krayt and Luke can take Abeloth's attacks doesn't necessarily mean the same as it would in real life (nor, again, does it compare Krayt and Luke unless if one can look at how much the attacks hurt them beyond just eyeballing that they both got hurt but not killed).

However, it seems like Krayt can withstand at least a frazzled Abeloth's TK when he's holding onto her. He can also substantially weaken her with drain, but that drain is over an extended period of time. How do you quantify this?

It seems like Luke was the "tank" in the fight while Krayt was the DPS, but if Luke weren't there for even 10 seconds, I'm not sure if Krayt could survive (while Luke had fought Abeloth Avatars by himself multiple times in the past).

Now that I think about it, it's tough to say beyond eyeballing it. If you believe in massive gaps between characters, then I suppose you could say that someone like Plagueis or TPM Sidious should've been completely useless in the fight against Abeloth and so Krayt scales above them; if you have smaller gaps between characters, then the feat means less.

This is, of course, looking at things in a vs. debating scaling manner and not a holistic one.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 4:28 pm
Are you seriously suggesting that Plagueis or TPM Sidious are so abundant in Force essence that they could have lost an amount of it sufficient to do this to Luke and not be dead? Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt 4037459623

The stranger collapsed with a gaping hole in his chest. Luke felt his own form grow limp and weak, and he sensed his mouth falling open to scream, then his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath.

Jaina had heard death screams many times before, on battlefields from Anthus to Zelaba, and they had one thing in common: death screams always contained as much surprise as pain, as much anger and disbelief as sorrow. It was as though men meeting a violent end could never quite believe what was happening, that they had finally met a fighter who was better and luckier than they were. Or maybe it was death itself they were cursing, angry at how it preferred to cheat great warriors of their lives rather than take them in a fair fight. Jaina couldn't be sure of the feelings behind the scream, but she knew one thing for certain-a death scream was always raw and loud.

And that was the kind of scream she had just heard from the Rude Awakening's medbay, where Luke had strapped in his body before he went beyond shadows.

The Lake of Apparitions was neither warm nor cold, still nor roiling. It simply was, beyond time and sensation, beyond fear or desire or duty. It embodied surrender and attainment, death and immortality, and Luke had never felt more ready to slip below its dark surface and join his beloved Mara, to wrap himself in her liquid embrace and let the Depths of Eternity wash away the anguish of his wounds, the ache of his lonely despair.

But something would not let him sink.

He lay on the water for a year or a minute, hurt and exhausted, watching Abeloth's pale form vanish. Her eyes were empty and dark, her tentacles curled into loose balls. Her golden hair was fanned about her head in a floating halo, and she did not seem to be sinking so much as merely shrinking. Luke continued to watch as she dwindled to the size of a thigh, a foot, a finger, then a mere sliver that seemed to hang below him, wavering and flickering, before it finally slipped from sight.

And still Luke did not sink. He was too weak to rise, and he could feel nothing of himself except the aching void Abeloth had torn in his chest. It occurred to him that he might well be dying, and it was not a thought that brought him any fear. Even if his life had not been as long as Yoda's, it had been a good one filled with close friends and much-loved family. He had been of some small service, at least, to his fellow sentient beings. And in the new Jedi Order, he had rekindled a light that had once gone out in the galaxy. He had few regrets for anything he had done, and if the time had come to let another Jedi carry the torch, he was ready.

"Not yet, Skywalker."

The voice was warm and familiar, and it came from beside Luke. He turned to find Mara's face breaking the surface of the water. Then he saw a hand gripping the back of his biceps and realized that she was floating beneath him, preventing him from sinking.

"Mara, it's okay," Luke said. "I'm ready. I want to be with you."

"Too bad." He felt his upper body rising as she tried to push him upward. "I don't want to be with you-not here, not yet."

"What?" Luke asked, feeling more confused than resentful. "Mara, I'm wounded...badly. Abeloth took something out of me."

Luke forced himself to sit upright. The effort made his head spin and his whole being ache, but he refused to collapse back into the water. He had no idea of the Sith's true identity, but it did not seem wise to let him return to the physical galaxy alone.

And again, the two main attacks which caused the gaping wound in Luke's chest, as in 95% of the reason he was so f*cked up, were not only shared by Krayt, but were used on him first.

Attack #1:
He tried to continue the motion and bring it up to deliver a blast of Force energy, but Abeloth had already launched her own attack by then, delivering a bolt of Force lightning that blasted straight through the stranger into Luke. He felt himself fly backward, consumed by pain, his entire being a column of blue, crackling Force flame.
Luke's chest was a searing ache around a fist-sized scorch hole, and his Force essence was bleeding out from a dozen smaller wounds, leaving a crescent of twinkling light spread across the dark water.

Attack #2 and by far the most devastating of the entire fight:
Abeloth did not come dancing in to counterattack, did not even try to stand off defensively and weaken them with a blast of Force lightning. She did not have time for such tactics. Luke doubted she would have fled the battle in the first place if she were not already dying, and with her Force essence gushing out of her like a geyser, she had to attack now.

And she did.

In the next thought Abeloth was simply there in front of the stranger, driving a ball of tentacles deep into him. Luke sprang forward to help-and felt a blistering iciness slide deep into his own chest. His entire right side flared into cold anguish, and the tentacles began to dig and grab, tearing him apart inside in a way no lightsaber or blaster ever could.
Then she simply fell away, her still-balled tentacles tearing free of both Luke and the stranger...each clutching a handful of dripping, pulsing Force essence.

The stranger collapsed with a gaping hole in his chest. Luke felt his own form grow limp and weak, and he sensed his mouth falling open to scream, then his whole body was falling, weak and aching for breath.

And again, if we're going with the idea, which isn't said anywhere in the fight, that Luke was carrying someone "nowhere near him", you would expect that he would 1. Have been in better shape after the fight, 2. Would recover quicker and 3. Have no problem finishing Krayt off after. Instead the prospect of fighting him was suicidal because neither were in good enough shape to fight.

The tattooed man stopped and whirled, and Luke found himself preparing to dodge a fork of Force lightning. But the stranger was in no better shape to fight than Luke. He had a gaping wound in his chest, just like Luke, and Luke could see that his entire form was shuddering.

Again, the key point here is the amount of Force essence lost. That is the measure of a Force user's power and is an example of why Abeloth is so much more powerful than everyone else. Luke lost so much that he was on death's door, and Krayt suffered virtually identical injuries - both were described as having gaping chest wounds with essence pouring out after suffering two identical attacks. At the very, very least, Luke was described as completely exhausted, needing to be held up by Mara, "too weak to rise", he could feel "nothing of himself except from the aching void Abeloth had torn in his chest" And when he did gather enough energy merely to rise, his "whole being ached" and his head span. But again, considering the fact he uttered a "death scream" that was described in vivid detail in comparison to the countless death screams Jaina Solo has heard from others dying, the fact Mara is holding Luke up and seems to confirm Luke's musing that he "might be dying" with "not yet, Skywalker", it seems awfully difficult to argue that he wasn't nearly dead.

But again, lets be extremely conservative and say he wasn't nearly dead - he was still so weak that merely moving was beyond his abilities. So again, are we really going to pretend that Plagueis or TPM Sidious have such comparable reserves to Luke that they would either 1. not have died in his position or 2. been able to get up as quickly as him? Because if that is the case, all of the scaling that exists between TPM and FotJ is basically splitting hairs.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 4:46 pm
Are you seriously suggesting that Plagueis or TPM Sidious are so abundant in Force essence that they could have lost an amount of it sufficient to do this to Luke and not be dead?

On an absolute level, I do not know how durable Force essences Beyond Shadows are. The injuries Luke and Krayt's essences experienced (like gaping holes to the chest) do not seem to be injuries that they could've just taken physically and kept going. Now in terms of relative injuries:

Luke lost so much that he was on death's door

OK, so there are two ways this manifests: his physical body that Jaina was monitoring, and his essence.

I don't find the former entirely convincing* given how many injuries Luke had already sustained (what's not often noted is that Luke had been going on a continuous gauntlet of fights against Sith and Abeloth Avatars throughout several books, including a massive fight involving both just before the Beyond Shadows fight). I get that Krayt had the Vong stuff, but this is FotJ Krayt anyway so that is a part of his character in the match.

In terms of the latter, it seems as though Luke's near-deathness was at least partially psychological, given that he tells Mara that he wants to join her and then when he talks to Krayt, the text notes that a lot of energy comes rushing back to him. After that regaining of motivation, Luke's injuries did not seem to have the same effect.

I then think there are two remaining premises that I find unclear:

1. That the wrestling Luke did with Abeloth (which he did seem to do more than Krayt did) wasn't a significant factor in his injuries. I get that the most visible ones were suffered by both Luke and Krayt, but are we to believe that wrestling Abeloth and presumably taking numerous hits from her had zero effect on his relative state (whereas Krayt was relatively more in a DPS role)? It could've drained him of energy, for one (I don't get the argument that loss of Force essence has to be a visible hole or something - Krayt's draining hurt him, and do we think they have infinite stamina /stamina doesn't matter Beyond Shadows?)

Like, otherwise we're to say that characters' vitality Beyond Shadows aren't affected by fatigue-draining moves, since they don't translate into visible holes? If Luke takes X hit after using his energy doing TK for 10 hours, it's not different from if he takes X hit while at full strength?

2. That the nexus* of Abeloth's planet can just be dismissed. I don't buy the argument that nexuses somehow don't extend beyond shadows, and it's clear that Abeloth's planet is a very powerful one.

* now on point #2, and some other points here, I know one can point out that authors often don't factor things like nexuses and past books' injuries into the calculus. This is true, but I'm looking at this from an in-universe vs. debating standpoint rather than a holistic one. The latter analysis isn't necessarily less valid, but we would have to throw out a lot of stuff on both sides if we used it.

I do lean towards Krayt beating Revan, but I do not at the moment think that he could defeat Plagueis, though that is not beyond possibility.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 5:23 pm
On an absolute level, I do not know how durable Force essences Beyond Shadows are. The injuries Luke and Krayt's essences experienced (like gaping holes to the chest) do not seem to be injuries that they could've just taken physically and kept going.
What relevance does durability have to anything I said? We're talking about how much of their essence they lost. When you get to a low enough amount, you die. The more you have, the more powerful you are. Krayt and Luke lost the same amount.

I don't find the former entirely convincing given how many injuries Luke had already sustained (what's not often noted is that Luke had been going on a continuous gauntlet of fights against Sith and Abeloth Avatars throughout several books, including a massive fight involving both just before the Beyond Shadows fight). I get that Krayt had the Vong stuff, but this is FotJ Krayt anyway so that is a part of his character in the match.
I'm not aware of how this addresses anything in my post? At best you're splitting hairs over Luke's prior wear and tear. Like, what is the most serious injury Luke had going into the BS fight that makes you think it makes a TPM through to FotJ scaling level of difference between the two? Again, doesn't address any of the quotes posted above.

In terms of the latter, it seems as though Luke's near-deathness was at least partially psychological, given that he tells Mara that he wants to join her and then when he talks to Krayt, the text notes that a lot of energy comes rushing back to him.
Yes, that's fine, but the psychological aspect was addressed in my post. He was still described by Jaina, Mara and himself as on his way to "dying." But again, I was charitable and provided a very conservative and yet irrefutable estimate of Luke's state, which was too weak to even move initially, a short time later too weak to move without feeling pain in every part of him and having his head spin, and then ever after having time to recover, was so weak that he could not fight Krayt without risking mutual death. None of that has been addressed in a meaningful way yet.

1. That the wrestling Luke did with Abeloth (which he did seem to do more than Krayt did) wasn't a significant factor in his injuries. I get that the most visible ones were suffered by both Luke and Krayt, but are we to believe that wrestling Abeloth and presumably taking numerous hits from her had zero effect on his relative state (whereas Krayt was relatively more in a DPS role)? It could've drained him of energy, for one (I don't get the argument that loss of Force essence has to be a visible hole or something - Krayt's draining hurt him, and do we think they have infinite stamina /stamina doesn't matter Beyond Shadows?)
Where was it noted that this was a significant factor in his injuries? Nobody is saying that it had "zero effect" on him, just that it makes up a very small fraction compared to "being torn apart inside in a way a lightsaber never could" lol. Again, nobody said they have infinite stamina and do not expend energy. The essence Luke lost from wrestling Abeloth is matched by Krayt carrying out a Force drain which did not replenish him but rather forced him to take in Abeloth's essence, which instead poured back out of Krayt, causing him to scream in pain as it boiled the Lake of Apparitions:

The draining seemed to continue for days; then the stranger threw back his head and screamed in anguish, and it suddenly seemed that only a breath had passed. Shiny black Force energy began to pour from the Sith's wounds into the lake, spreading outward around them in an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss. Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed-the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.

Your claim, to be clear, is that Luke wrestling Abeloth was significantly more damaging than Krayt draining Abeloth with no perceivable benefit to himself, but rather self-injury. Drain is an extremely taxing ability to use at all, let alone if you are not benefiting from it. So Luke and Krayt are equally encumbered by the fact they have a job to do (hold Abeloth/drain Abeloth), Krayt is encumbered by having to absorb her damaging essence, and Luke is encumbered by providing some of his energy to Krayt so he can compensate for this. As I've pointed out before, Krayt could no more continue to drain Abeloth without Luke holding her than Luke could hold her without Krayt draining her, as shown below:

The draining seemed to continue for days; then the stranger threw back his head and screamed in anguish, and it suddenly seemed that only a breath had passed. Shiny black Force energy began to pour from the Sith's wounds into the lake, spreading outward around them in an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss. Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed-the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.

Abeloth whipped her chin free of Luke's hand, ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake. She began to roll her head around, gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke's arm or the stranger's-anything she could reach.

Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control.

"Keep going," Luke urged the stranger. "Pull harder!"

If either had stopped doing their job, Abeloth would have broken free. Luke was urging Krayt to drain her harder because he was losing control over her.I'm not claiming that Krayt had a way harder job, or that he's even equal to Luke or more powerful than Luke. I'm claiming he's closer in power to Luke than Plagueis. Your claim is that your reading of the above suggests a disparity between Luke and Krayt so colossal that it makes up for every line of scaling that separates TPM Plagueis from FotJ Luke. You have offered nothing to support this apart from nitpicking and hair splitting.

2. That the nexus of Abeloth's planet can just be dismissed. I don't buy the argument that nexuses somehow don't extend beyond shadows, and it's clear that Abeloth's planet is a very powerful one.
So just to be clear:

1. You have not explained how this would even function in Beyond Shadows. We know how it works in the physical universe - a nexus is an area with a more dense concentration of living force energy than normal, meaning there is more Force energy in the environment available to be channelled through midichlorians, which are physical organisms. Beyond Shadows is not a physical realm, and is described as being a realm made of pure Force energy as described below:

Luke rose out of his body with a jolt, then hung floating above it, staring at the underside of the bunk above. A week passed, or maybe it was a second-he had no idea. Time had no existence outside the body. A heartbeat lasted a week, a lifetime flashed by in an instant. But Luke Skywalker remained, a manifestation of Force essence that embodied mind and form, more real than the material husk he had left strapped in the bunk below.

He exhaled, or imagined himself exhaling, and his connection to his body grew more tenuous. There is no life, there is only the Force. It was the code of the Mind Walkers, an assertion that the corporeal was illusion, that a living being was nothing but a luminous swirl in the Force. And perhaps they were right.

Luke exhaled again, and a purple radiance appeared above, shining down through the crude matter of the upper bunk as though it were a hologram. He reached, and the light came flooding in, filling him with a calm as deep as space. He became the Force, and the Force became him, and he knew only the pure, eternal joy of existence.

2. You have not provided a single quote or instance of someone being amped merely by being on the representation of Abeloth's planet Beyond Shadows, nor anyone being weakened. I, however, have provided a quote pointing out that Luke feels like he is in communion with the Force itself in this place. Moreover, there has been no explanation of how being in this location changes the amount of Force essence Luke or Krayt consist of. Can you show me the part in the book where Krayt increases the amount of Force essence that makes up his spirit simply by being in this location?

There is so little rigor in the logic of this argument that there is really no need to acknowledge it. Again, to be clear, you are taking the concept of a nexus, a concentration of living force energy that is found in a physical location, and channeled through physical organisms, and applying to a realm that consists purely of Force energy, is beyond physical matter and even time, and is inhabited by incorporeal spirits. And you are doing this without making any citations to the source material.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 5:36 pm
Like, otherwise we're to say that characters' vitality Beyond Shadows aren't affected by fatigue-draining moves, since they don't translate into visible holes? If Luke takes X hit after using his energy doing TK for 10 hours, it's not different from if he takes X hit while at full strength?
So again, to make sure neither of us are straying from the point: nobody has ever made the claim that using attacks in Beyond Shadows does not drain stamina. It is simply that there is no evidence that Luke used so much more energy than Krayt that it accounts for the gargantuan difference in power you are trying to create between them.

Even if I granted you that Luke had a harder job, that Krayt had a nexus amp, and that Luke had some injuries going into the fight - apparently that makes up the difference between:

TPM Plagueis - RotS Sidious

RotS Sidious - RotJ Sidious

RotJ Sidious - DE Luke or DE Sidious

DE Luke - TUF Luke

TUF Luke - FotJ Luke

And also, the multi-faceted power/knowledge/skill/healing increase between FotJ Krayt and Reborn Krayt.

You are saying that the few hairsplitting issues you have raised (and frankly, I could raise plenty for Krayt as well), account for all of that scaling and still result in Krayt being below Plagueis?
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 5:55 pm
I mean, can we just talk about some of the implications here? It's a fact that Luke could not contain Abeloth without Krayt's help, correct? She was about to tentacle-rape him right before Krayt stepped in.

Tentacles began to lash at his face, probing for his nose and ears and mouth. A pair of gray tips shot into view, blurring and growing large. Luke closed both eyes and turned away, but not quickly enough. The right eye socket exploded in pain, and everything went dark on that side of his head.

And again as we saw later, she was even breaking free of Luke while Krayt was draining her:

Abeloth whipped her chin free of Luke's hand, ripping the energy knot where they had joined and sending a sparkling line of both of their Force essences splattering across the surface of the lake. She began to roll her head around, gnashing and spitting, trying to sink her fangs into Luke's arm or the stranger's-anything she could reach.

Luke slipped his arm down around her throat and pulled hard, merging his form into hers, doing his best to keep her under control.

"Keep going," Luke urged the stranger. "Pull harder!"

Why is this important? Because, as we know, in the physical universe the most Luke can do to Abeloth 1v1 is stop her from Force choking him to death, and even when every cell in his body is bursting with Force energy he is still much weaker than her. So Krayt makes such a difference in the fight that Abeloth can go from Force choking Luke, or being more powerful than him at 100% power output, or being able to instantly break free of him and tentacle rape him, to containing her long enough to mortally wound her.

So, exactly how weak can Krayt be but still make up such a huge disparity between Abeloth and Luke? Abeloth was described as a "dozen times" more powerful than Luke and using the Force "with far greater power than Luke ever had" even when she was doing stuff off-panel that wasn't particularly noteworthy, and yet Luke in the past has moved dovin basals, stomped Unuthul, put a double layered illusion over the Jade Shadow, and bathed Palpatine in enough Light Side energy to cut him off from his Force storm. This being in the same book series where Darish Vol, someone Abeloth can destroy easily in a fair fight, is described as having much the power of Luke.

You're telling me someone weaker than Plagueis can take Luke from being killed by Abeloth in at best 20-30 seconds to containing her long enough to kill her?

I mean, let's even just take Luke out of the equation.

1. Abeloth melted a city without realizing it because she got angry.

2. She stuck a greater concentration of dark side energy inside a body than Luke had ever experienced before, which includes Sidious' Force storms and any nexuses he has ever encountered.

3. Her casual expressions of the Force are "far greater" than any of Luke's prior feats, including dovin basal moving, stomping Unuthul, severing DE Sidious from his Force Storm, TUF, and creating a double-layered illusion over the Jade Shadow.

4. She has tanked several full-power attacks from Luke and Darish Vol respectively and only lost a fraction of her total power, attacks that would rightfully kill any mortal Force user if they were given a clean shot.

Krayt being enough of a difference that she was able to be killed is hilariously above anything Plagueis has done.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 9th 2020, 7:17 pm
I have to say that after this very enjoyable exchange, I am simultaneously more confident than ever that Luke >>> Krayt and that Krayt is a powerhouse (if not one who definitely beats Plagueis by FotJ). I think there are several smoking guns presented below that destroy any relativity to Luke beyond the mildest, but there is nonetheless on research a lot of very good cases for Krayt that don't revolve around that direct scaling (for example, his Force drain of Abeloth as a feat unto itself rather than a comparison to Luke).

@ILS wrote:What relevance does durability have to anything I said? We're talking about how much of their essence they lost. When you get to a low enough amount, you die. The more you have, the more powerful you are. Krayt and Luke lost the same amount.

I quickly brought up the absolute durability (or whatever you want to call it) question with a single sentence since others have used it before, but to clarify, I know that wasn't your specific point.

The rest of my post was about the below:

Luke's Injuries Pre-Fight


I'm not aware of how this addresses anything in my post?

It's relevant to the question of whether Luke being near-death (in terms of his physical body since you brought up the case of Luke's physical body being brain dead) is scalable, since if Luke had other injuries that would exacerbate his, it would not be an even comparison. It was not a direct response to a sub-point of yours as much as it was my own new sub-point to the subject of comparative damage. And even if you disagree with my new point, from the below I think you know why the subject is relevant.

BTW, as I elaborate on below, Luke's physical body being essentially brain dead reversed when Luke regained his energy and determination Beyond Shadows, which was (as in the regaining) purely due to psychological reasons.

At best you're splitting hairs over Luke's prior wear and tear.

I respectfully disagree that any of these points are "splitting hairs" (unless if you're saying that it was not planned out by the authors, but neither are 99% of the arguments on either side here). "Splitting hairs" would be if I pointed out that Luke had a paper cut or did some jumping jacks before the fight (of course, those are hyperbolic examples, but you get the point). I don't think it is splitting hairs to note:

  • Luke fought Abeloth four times, including once just before the Beyond Shadows fight. You argue that FotJ Abeloth is astronomically stronger than Luke and can absolutely stomp him, so fighting her multiple times (including sometimes solo, or even while being attacked by Sith) would certainly count. Imagine if before fighting Luke in DE, Sidious had just been attacked by Abeloth four times - would you not think that to matter in looking at the fight?
  • (as an example, Shaak Ti's encounters with some dozens of magnaguards was explicitly noted as a factor for Grievous stomping her - while Luke >>>> Shaak Ti, Abeloth >>>> magnaguards and the ratio of Abeloth : Luke's power is far greater than the ratio of magnaguards : Shaak Ti)
  • Luke also fought through armies of Sith, including right before the Beyond Shadows fight.
  • He had previously gone for a month without food or water while his spirit left his body (so he couldn't be using any sort of active Force sustaining techniques). Granted, this was a moderate amount of time before the Beyond Shadows fight, so unto itself it may not be significant.

From the above, Luke had:

  • Lost consciousness several times.
  • Been punctured and choked by Abeloth to the point of near-death.
  • Had several serious wounds to the body.
  • Drawed upon all of his energy to a greater degree than he ever had to burst his cells with energy - twice, including right before the Beyond Shadows fight.

Nor is it the case that his injuries are never emphasized - Luke's injuries are brought up throughout the series.

Example:

They came together in a collision that left Luke's head spinning and his bones aching. He knew his lightsaber had struck home because he smelled scorched flesh. The hilt was wobbling against his hand as Korelei struggled to free herself of the searing blade. He felt a palm press itself to his chest, so he brought his free hand up and grabbed her armˇ...ˇtoo late. His entire body sizzled into the joint-crushing grip of a Force lightning strike.

The agony seemed to last forever. Luke could feel his own flesh charring beneath the palm pressed to his chest; he was paralyzed by the lightning, unable to fight free or attack with a head-butt, or even flick his lightsaber blade and finish Korelei. He simply hung paralyzed, one hand clutching her arm, the other pressing the hilt to her chest, wondering how long it would take her to die.


A lot longer than Luke, apparently. Her free arm rose between them, pushing off to create some space. Then she twisted away, hurling him into the duct wallˇ...ˇand sliding off his lightsaber sideways. The act opened a gaping chasm in her torso. - FotJ Apocalypse

Like, Luke literally takes direct lightning from Abeloth, while we were all wanking the fact that Plagueis took lightning from TPM Sidious.

Krayt, meanwhile, was by all appearances fresh (besides the Vong implants that are a part of the OP matchup anyway).

Would it be helpful if I gathered a list of quotes? I think you're aware of the mentioned events.

Whether this is enough to make up for the gap to Plagueis is ambiguous, as I've said. But I do not see why you think there's no reasonable discussion to be had that this gauntlet of near-death-experiences + the nexus + Luke's physical exertions in the Beyond Shadows fight + psychological factors mentioned would be significant beyond "splitting hairs".

I think the allegation of "nitpicking" against any rebuttals to the parity/near-parity claims is being overused. You may personally disagree with whether Luke being paralyzed by a direct hit of lightning from Abeloth in the physical world factored into the durability of his physical body while his spirit was Beyond Shadows a few chapters later, but you can't pretend that it's unreasonable to at least bring that up as a point of conversation, as though this is fishing for petty things and not finding that Luke was fighting the second most powerful villain in Star Wars 1 v 1 several times. He didn't just get a paper cut.

BTW, here's what happened with Luke's injuries after fighting Jacen:

"I must say, that seems quite wise," C-3PO said. "The last time you two fought, you were forced to spend your nights in the bacta tank for an entire week." - LotF Invincible

Much less than a week had passed, and Luke just fought an army + a being infinitely more powerful than Jacen.

So can we drop the claim that this is some sort of triviality that nobody should even bring up, please?

As for how it scales to the gap to Plagueis, this is elaborated on more below. One thing to keep in mind is it's four factors, not just one. Each widening the gap half a tier would be enough.

Like, what is the most serious injury Luke had going into the BS fight that makes you think it makes a TPM through to FotJ scaling level of difference between the two?

In addition to what I just provided (direct lightning from Abeloth), I'd be happy to look if you want more examples than what have been given and are known by both of us, but one thing to emphasize is that it doesn't have to be a visible cut or gash to factor into susceptibility to injury, especially since Luke Beyond Shadows probably can't use active Force healing on his physical body back on the Jade Shadow while fighting Abeloth (nor could Krayt, but that doesn't change the point about injuries).

Do you think Luke struggling to stand against Abeloth just a few chapters earlier, and then having to call upon all of the energy available to him to burst his cells with energy to do so, wouldn't matter?

Here's an example of a milder set of struggles causing more injuries:

He set down the healing stick and put his shirt back on. His lightsaber had never left his side. He glanced in the mirror. His back was covered with white residue. It was foaming. The computer had warned him that a person must rest for the healing stick to work. Luke hoped he would get that chance. Slowly he limped his way down the stairs. He was stiff from the fall, his muscles aching with pain. The mistmakers had weakened his system; the burns and the fall had made him lose even more strength. If he was at ten percent of his normal power, he was high. Size matters not, Yoda had told him. He hoped that applied to strength as well. The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain. Whoever it was became powerful after he had left the academy. So powerful that a man like Brakiss, who had so much talent in the Force that the Empire had taken him, as a baby, to train in the dark side, was terrified of him. - New Rebellion
 
This is from crashing his X-wing. While Luke was less powerful then (still post-DE), it's still a lower ratio of difficulty than fighting Abeloth multiple times. He then goes on to struggle against a Kueller that would've otherwise been "no match" for him. Indeed, he thought that he was at around "10 percent" power.

Luke also almost dies to four nightsisters because he was dazed by rocks. This isn't even a bad thing on Luke's part - injuries playing a role in fights and durability is very common in the lore (and in real life).

Later in this post, I give some examples of how to gauge the impact that injuries (and other factors, like nexuses) can have. Here's a preview: fighting through a vastly sub-Abeloth gauntlet in TUF puts Luke from stomping several slayers at once to getting cornered and nearly dying from one (which is attributed explicitly to fatigue).

Again, doesn't address any of the quotes posted above.

It's a new point by me. 

Comparing Injuries Post-Fight


In terms of the latter, it seems as though Luke's near-deathness was at least partially psychological, given that he tells Mara that he wants to join her and then when he talks to Krayt, the text notes that a lot of energy comes rushing back to him.
Yes, that's fine, but the psychological aspect was addressed in my post. He was still described by Jaina, Mara and himself as on his way to "dying." But again, I was charitable and provided a very conservative and yet irrefutable estimate of Luke's state, which was too weak to even move initially, a short time later too weak to move without feeling pain in every part of him and having his head spin, and then ever after having time to recover, was so weak that he could not fight Krayt without risking mutual death. None of that has been addressed in a meaningful way yet.

Yes; he was on his way to dying and struggling to move, but the psychological state would factor into that. As soon as Luke got his motivation back, he felt energy rushing to him and then from that point onwards he doesn't struggle to stand, move, ponder, etc. at all (or to a large degree). We don't see any more significant mention of him being near-death (except to the extent that he had long term injuries, but those didn't put him near-death):

Luke felt his energy and his determination come rushing back. "I guess that remains to be seen, doesn't it?"

A slow grin crept across the stranger's mouth. "Indeed it does." He turned and began to limp away. "And we shall see, Master Skywalker. I promise you that."

Luke returned to his feet and stood watching, until the stranger finally stepped onto the shore and vanished. The man was barely gone before Jacen spoke again, this time from the water in front of Luke. - FotJ Apocalypse

After being on the ground struggling to even survive (or rather being willing to die), Luke just casually stands up.

You might then argue that Luke without extra motivation would be near-death and then he would be not-near-death only through the motivation, but this doesn't work either because he wasn't just "baseline" in motivation when he was near-death; he actively wanted to join Mara.

Likewise, Krayt clearly had that "motivation" that post-energy rush Luke had too, given his extreme determination to rise to power that would've been present regardless.

The claim that Luke was unable to fight Krayt isn't stated in the text. Luke had just fought the ultimate evil of Star Wars, and has both his physical body to worry about and Ben's safety / the Jedi Order / etc. He can be excused for not immediately charging at a Sith whose origins he has no idea about. Even if he were too injured to feel confident in exerting himself more, being too injured to continue a fight is very different from being near-death.

This point of contention about Luke's psychology is pretty critical. If it cannot be demonstrated that Luke was near death involuntarily, then the argument that there is little room for Krayt being much weaker while surviving falls apart. If Luke after the fight is heavily injured but still a pretty long away from involuntarily dying,  then you can no longer say that there isn't room for Krayt to be weaker, since we know nothing about their relative states except that Krayt was also injured and limping (if you shot both Sirak and DE Sidious in the leg with a blaster rifle, they'd probably both limp - it doesn't tell you anything).

Damage Taken During Fight


1. That the wrestling Luke did with Abeloth (which he did seem to do more than Krayt did) wasn't a significant factor in his injuries. I get that the most visible ones were suffered by both Luke and Krayt, but are we to believe that wrestling Abeloth and presumably taking numerous hits from her had zero effect on his relative state (whereas Krayt was relatively more in a DPS role)? It could've drained him of energy, for one (I don't get the argument that loss of Force essence has to be a visible hole or something - Krayt's draining hurt him, and do we think they have infinite stamina /stamina doesn't matter Beyond Shadows?)
Where was it noted that this was a significant factor in his injuries?

If Abeloth is far, far stronger than Luke as you say, why wouldn't wrestling said godlike being as she's trying to stab and strangle you for a timeless amount of time have a significant effect? The key difference here is that Luke spent extended time GRAPPLING WITH HER PERSONALLY, SOLO. Luke's power was explicitly waning in TUF after fighting through thousands of Vong and several Slayers to the point where a SINGLE slayer could've killed him, and I'd definitely say that Abeloth would destroy everyone from there:

The short warrior hurried in, his weapon striking at Jacen like a serpent, then stiffening, jabbed him hard in the left forearm, as if to stake the arm to the floor. Jacen twisted out from under the attack, grasping that Luke had again been pressed to the wall. Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim's forehead. - The Unifying Force

The reason why I mentioned fatigue was to emphasize that the wrestling doesn't have to cause "physical" holes in Luke to have a massive effect. That's not a perfect indicator of how much impact it has on you. Luke's state when he seemed near-death was accompanied by what looked like descriptions of fatigue too. The Beyond Shadows equivalent of a paper cut may cause more holes than grappling with Abeloth for "hours", but the latter would matter far more. I know you're saying that this is a strawman, but a lot of the responses you're giving are expecting an explicitly noted injury as though that is necessary for grappling Abeloth to matter.

Do you think that if Dooku had to wrestle with Sidious for an hour, this would not be a "significant" factor? If he then gets up and struggles with Obi Wan, would you conclude that Obi Wan has some parity or be suspicious given the circumstance? Would you say "oh, well that's just hairsplitting - Dooku probably wasn't that bothered!".

The essence Luke lost from wrestling Abeloth is matched by Krayt carrying out a Force drain which did not replenish him but rather forced him to take in Abeloth's essence, which instead poured back out of Krayt, causing him to scream in pain as it boiled the Lake of Apparitions:

The draining seemed to continue for days; then the stranger threw back his head and screamed in anguish, and it suddenly seemed that only a breath had passed. Shiny black Force energy began to pour from the Sith's wounds into the lake, spreading outward around them in an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss. Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed-the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.

The text says that Krayt and Luke were suffering the same amount from the drain, so that would cancel out. Luke then had the additional burden of wrestling Abeloth. I don't know why wrestling with someone who would make DE Sidious beg for mercy shouldn't be a "significant" factor.

If you're saying that then Krayt has the additional factor of exerting himself with the Force drain (separately from the damage of the drain going to him), then I mean, sure, but I doubt that cancels out. I think that if Dooku would rather do melee with Sidious for 30 seconds or stand back and just drain him while he's preoccupied for 30 seconds, the former would be a lot more alarming to him while the latter would be taxing but hardly as bad.

For the record though, Krayt's Force draining of Abeloth is an extremely impressive feat; I just do not think it is a direct comparison to Luke.

If either had stopped doing their job, Abeloth would have broken free.

Sure. But if they need a 100 and Luke contributes 80 while Krayt contributes 20, that doesn't mean they're close to each other. Especially given:

Of course she wasn't. Luke was the one looking for a fight, not Abeloth. She was too busy trying to create her divine family, to transform Ben and Vestara into a twisted version of the Son and the Daughter who had once kept the Balance in the Force. The last thing Abeloth wanted now was to face Luke in a final combat that she just might lose.

But the choice wasn't hers.
- FotJ Apocalypse

In a 2 v 1, if the duo are somewhat close to each other and one of the duo stands a strong chance of solo'ing, the 2 v 1 is going to end up a stomp unless if the lone one can take out one of the others or otherwise pull an advantage. If Luke + someone who is like somewhat relative to Luke can just barely beat Abeloth, then Luke alone should've been absolutely destroyed by Abeloth in every way, instead of actually doing serious damage to her multiple times.

While you are citing examples where things like holding onto Abeloth's leg would've failed, the overall fight is one that Luke initially intended to do alone, and felt that he could win. (My guess is that if he were to win alone, he would've died) (Your overall claim that Luke couldn't do anything to Abeloth solo isn't entirely true, and depends on circumstances. There were indeed cases where Luke was able to cause significant damage to Abeloth; e.g. in Allies he was "destroying Abeloth" even before the fodder lost tribe Sith who spent as much time attacking Luke as attacking Abeloth cast their Force net)

In fact, maybe "contributes" is the wrong word. Their roles are not symmetrical; you do not need to be on the same/close/somewhat close level as someone to drain them while they're distracted. IIRC Lomi was able to drain Luke despite being significantly weaker than him.

I'd just like to reiterate the contradiction in the simultaneous claims that Abeloth is so far beyond Luke, and that Luke having to grapple Abeloth directly (while Krayt never did by himself) and fighting her multiple times in person is just a nitpick that can be dismissed. Which is it?

Luke was urging Krayt to drain her harder because he was losing control over her.I'm not claiming that Krayt had a way harder job, or that he's even equal to Luke or more powerful than Luke. I'm claiming he's closer in power to Luke than Plagueis. Your claim is that your reading of the above suggests a disparity between Luke and Krayt so colossal that it makes up for every line of scaling that separates TPM Plagueis from FotJ Luke. You have offered nothing to support this apart from nitpicking and hair splitting.

I think this could be an interesting way to frame it:

If TPM Sidious were there instead of Krayt, at what point would he have failed?

And what about RotS? RotJ? DE? Is it just eyeballing?

Dark Side Nexus



So just to be clear:

1. You have not explained how this would even function in Beyond Shadows. We know how it works in the physical universe - a nexus is an area with a more dense concentration of living force energy than normal, meaning there is more Force energy in the environment available to be channelled through midichlorians, which are physical organisms. Beyond Shadows is not a physical realm, and is described as being a realm made of pure Force energy as described below:

Luke clearly noted the Font and Pool's power as nexuses while he was Beyond Shadows:

When he reached the basin, Luke could finally see through the curtain of steam to the font itself. It was a jet of water about as thick as his leg, so filled with sulfur and iron that it was as brown as a tree trunk-and so permeated with Force energy that it literally sent him stumbling back, his head spinning and his stomach churning. The fountain was not just tainted with dark side power, it was imbued with it-as if it were rising up from some deep-buried reservoir of dark side energy that had been building, preparing to blow for not just millennia, but since the beginning of time itself.

Luke resisted the temptation to start hurling accusations. The Font of Power was clearly a dark side nexus, and Ryontarr, at least, would understand what that meant. - FotJ Abyss

They were not any weaker. If you want to argue that the Font and Pool are special with regards to how they interact with Beyond Shadows, that is up to you.

BTW, sith spirits clearly anchor themselves to nexuses. That could be different, but again, unless you provide an explicit reason otherwise the evidence favors nexuses applying.

2. You have not provided a single quote or instance of someone being amped merely by being on the representation of Abeloth's planet Beyond Shadows, nor anyone being weakened.

I've previously provided sources that show Luke can feel nexuses while Beyond Shadows. Are you saying that Force users can feel nexuses Beyond Shadows, but can't draw on their power? Seems less plausible than just taking the straightforward answer that nexuses apply.

I, however, have provided a quote pointing out that Luke feels like he is in communion with the Force itself in this place.

But he can still feel nexuses, as shown above. The two aren't mutually exclusive. The initial feeling of complete communion does not prevent the PoV's from showing Luke and others still reacting to mundane things (like a change in motivation).

Moreover, there has been no explanation of how being in this location changes the amount of Force essence Luke or Krayt consist of. Can you show me the part in the book where Krayt increases the amount of Force essence that makes up his spirit simply by being in this location?

It's not just about the amount of Force essence. Luke went from being on his knees and about to die to standing up and feeling much better just through an increase in motivation, so real-life factors like that can matter. Given that sith spirits can draw on the power of nexuses, Luke can feel nexuses Beyond Shadows, and in every other case nexuses can impact the amount of energy you have, it's not at all unreasonable to note that it would play a factor here.

This is kind of like arguing that I haven't provided a source that nukes can harm Krayt, so therefore they can't. Given that all other situations have nexuses mattering, it's up to you to show that the Font and Pool are different and "normal" nexuses don't matter (even though, BTW, it's very possible/probable that the Font and Pool are why Abeloth's planet is a nexus!).

@ILS wrote:So again, to make sure neither of us are straying from the point: nobody has ever made the claim that using attacks in Beyond Shadows does not drain stamina. It is simply that there is no evidence that Luke used so much more energy than Krayt that it accounts for the gargantuan difference in power you are trying to create between them.

Again, you also say that Abeloth is massively stronger than Luke, and yet apparently wrestling with her while she's trying to destroy him for extended/timeless time is not a major factor.

Yoda was tired after fighting the weaker Dooku for some minutes. Starkiller was super-exhausted after destroying some Starkiller clones. Luke was explicitly weakened after fighting thousands of Vong and several Slayers that would've all been annihilated by Abeloth.

Even if I granted you that Luke had a harder job, that Krayt had a nexus amp, and that Luke had some injuries going into the fight -

These are all true. We can agree on this and then move onto quantifying how much of a difference it made.

apparently that makes up the difference between:

TPM Plagueis - RotS Sidious

RotS Sidious - RotJ Sidious

RotJ Sidious - DE Luke or DE Sidious

DE Luke - TUF Luke

TUF Luke - FotJ Luke

Well, I've given a few examples in this post (and some more below) about how to quantify these factors.

But where do you place Krayt? That's not a rhetorical question - how do you justify placing him below DE Sidious or RotJ Sidious or wherever? Why is Plagueis the cutoff?

We can try to quantify it, at least roughly, by looking at analogous cases of nexuses, fatigue, and time spent wrestling with a far more powerful foe and then how much it has drained people. An example would be Luke going from being able to take on several Slayers at once to being in a position where it's stated that a single Slayer could have killed him.

Even if you think any one factor isn't enough, here we have four factors:


  1. Luke's gauntlet of near-death battles including fighting Abeloth (who you say is massively beyond Luke) 1 v 1 several times.
  2. The dark nexus that is stupendously powerful.
  3. Luke doing extra, extended melee and grappling with Abeloth (who, again, you say is massively beyond Luke).
  4. Luke's psychological state after the battle; as soon as he gains motivation, he stands up casually and seems relatively fine.


And also, the multi-faceted power/knowledge/skill/healing increase between FotJ Krayt and Reborn Krayt.

But this thread is about FotJ Krayt?

You are saying that the few hairsplitting issues you have raised (and frankly, I could raise plenty for Krayt as well), account for all of that scaling and still result in Krayt being below Plagueis?

Again, I do not know why Luke blacking out several times from trying to fight Abeloth 1 v 1 and then having to call on all of his energy to just be able to stand to shoot a blaster at her while fighting armies of Sith is "hairsplitting", or mentioning a nexus (that is the planet with the Font and Pool, the homeworld of Abeloth and the former dwelling place of the Ones of Mortis) so powerful that the Lost Tribe Sith were afraid to tap into it.

To put it in perspective, Sidious's machinations turned Byss into the most powerful planetary nexus in the galaxy (IIRC), Vitiate's presence on Yavin IV contributed to it being so powerful that Satele felt overwhelmed being in it, and a random dark Jedi dying on Dagobah was enough for Yoda to use it to mask his presence to Palpatine. (Oh, and Abeloth herself was probably a nexus too)

I would non-rhetorically ask you to explain where along the Sidious-scale you put Krayt, and why. Why not put him above DE Sidious?

This being in the same book series where Darish Vol, someone Abeloth can destroy easily in a fair fight, is described as having much the power of Luke.

This is (actually) a nitpick but we don't see the Abeloth vs. Vol fight, so we don't really know what happened except that Vol lost (and didn't even know it was Abeloth, somehow despite it being so obvious lol).

Otherwise, I agree that Krayt's actions in the fight as direct feats unto themselves are extremely impressive. I just think that you are overstating Krayt's relativity to Luke, and that there are four major factors that mitigate it (Luke's prior injuries, the nexus, Luke engaging significantly more with Abeloth during the fight, and Luke's post-fight state being psychological and negated on regaining motivation).

I think that your general frustration with anti-Krayt arguments is that they are too specific and miss the "big picture", hence the repeated complaint that they are "splitting hairs". But a point isn't splitting hairs if the implications are large - if the entire premise that Luke was near death and therefore Krayt couldn't have been much weaker is wrong and Luke's state was mostly psychological, that is not a "nitpick" - it literally sends an entire scaling line tumbling down. You can argue that the claim is wrong, but it is absolutely not a nitpick because it's such a major implication if it is true.

If you are trying to say that we should stop being hyper-literal and analyzing every single possible detail, then that has to work both ways (and we get into a different form of analysis from the in-universe scaling we typically do). I see a lot of Krayt cases that involve micro-analysis too, like the size of the holes that appear in their essences and in what order one character attacked Abeloth or was attacked by her at the end.

Bulleted Summary


  • If Abeloth >>>> Luke, why doesn't it matter that he had fought Abeloth by himself several times, including just before this battle?
  • Why wouldn't it matter that Luke had gotten several severe injuries leading up to the battle, including blacking out?
  • If Abeloth >>>> Luke, why wouldn't it be a significant factor that Luke did the bulk of grappling with her personally? You agree that fatigue matters Beyond Shadows, and Luke was drained from fighting an army of Vong that would've been stomped casually by Abeloth (and plenty of other examples).
  • Why did Luke stand up just fine after he regained motivation? The worst descriptions of both his Beyond Shadows and physical bodies happened before he decided that he had to live, after which he was in far better shape.
  • If nexuses can't be used Beyond Shadows, how could Luke feel the Font and Pool?

Analogies to this mattering:

  • Fatigue from fighting a far weaker set of foes lowers TUF Luke to being able to get taken out by one slayer.
  • Fatigue from fighting a set of magnaguards (magnaguards : Shaak Ti <<<< Abeloth : Luke) weakens Shaak Ti so much she gets oneshot by Grievous, who notes her fatigue.
  • The Vjun nexus is enough for Dooku to challenge Yoda.
  • Injuries make Luke weaker than Kueller.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 12th 2020, 12:52 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Elm

I have to say that after this very enjoyable exchange, I am simultaneously more confident than ever that Luke >>> Krayt and that Krayt is a powerhouse (if not one who definitely beats Plagueis by FotJ). I think there are several smoking guns presented below that destroy any relativity to Luke beyond the mildest, but there is nonetheless on research a lot of very good cases for Krayt that don't revolve around that direct scaling (for example, his Force drain of Abeloth as a feat unto itself rather than a comparison to Luke).

That's fine. I think it's fairly obvious we won't be able to sway one another, although I'm genuinely surprised you are showing an interest in Krayt's direct comparison to Abeloth.

It's relevant to the question of whether Luke being near-death (in terms of his physical body since you brought up the case of Luke's physical body being brain dead) is scalable, since if Luke had other injuries that would exacerbate his, it would not be an even comparison. It was not a direct response to a sub-point of yours as much as it was my own new sub-point to the subject of comparative damage. And even if you disagree with my new point, from the below I think you know why the subject is relevant.

BTW, as I elaborate on below, Luke's physical body being essentially brain dead reversed when Luke regained his energy and determination Beyond Shadows, which was (as in the regaining) purely due to psychological reasons.
To be honest, I've had to rack my brains over what effect exactly carrying a physical injury into Beyond Shadows would have on the spirit, not out of a desire to deflect your point but just genuine curiosity. We know that the body is "tethered" to the spirit, even if loosely, when one goes BS, which was noted by the Mind Walkers (Luke's spirit, when it passed through his inanimate body, caused his body to twitch because of this loose tethering, and it's evident from how the body is injured in a very similar way to how the spirit is injured). My question is, does it work in reverse? If the body is damaged, is the spirit damaged equally? I think the answer has something to do with the basic point Yoda laid out in ESB: that Force users are not this "crude flesh" but are luminous beings, spirits. Spirits which animate the physical body, giving it life and energy (as you noted, when Luke's energy perked up in BS, his body became more responsive). I think there is a case that if the body, particularly when it's being animated, is attacked, particularly with abilities of a more metaphysical nature (TP, sorcery, drain, lightning etc) it will have some kind of effect on the spirit; even non-combat stuff like grief leaves "wounds" on the spirit as seen with Cade in Legacy when both K'Kruhk and Treylis note this and try to heal him. There's also the question of how midichlorians are involved. Here's my basic theory:

Anything that happens to the spirit happens to the body: the spirit is injured, so is the body, if it dies, the spirit dies. While the two are connected, the spirit is more vulnerable to anything that happens to the body, but it does not seem true that it's an equal effect. This obvious from the fact plenty of spirits have subsisted without a body even in dire circumstances with no nexus to attach to. The body, then, would simply be a medium through which the spirit could be attacked while it is tethered to it, however, it would not be the same as attacking the spirit directly.

So... yeah, while you certainly have a point that any injuries Luke had going into the fight might have been a factor, I do think it's overstated considering the disparity you want to create between Krayt and Luke. For an example, Luke stated that he was no weaker for the persisting wound Abeloth had inflicted on him after the fight, even though his spirit form had a gaping hole in the chest, as seen in Crucible. He simply said that he had issues with Foresight. So, if Luke's combat abilities were not drastically effected after having his spirit directly and lastingly wounded by Abeloth (specifically having something "taken out of him"), then it's kind of hard to argue that some vague wear and tear, which was nowhere near as hurtful to his essence, leading up to the fight would really matter. Which I think is evident from the fact, much like many of your points, the text does not make even the vaguest mention of them as a factor. Sure, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but without evidence at all you're basically just speculating and casting doubt on something that there was an entire novel dedicated to articulating clearly... and it chose not to.

Luke fought Abeloth four times, including once just before the Beyond Shadows fight. You argue that FotJ Abeloth is astronomically stronger than Luke and can absolutely stomp him, so fighting her multiple times (including sometimes solo, or even while being attacked by Sith) would certainly count. Imagine if before fighting Luke in DE, Sidious had just been attacked by Abeloth four times - would you not think that to matter in looking at the fight?
(as an example, Shaak Ti's encounters with some dozens of magnaguards was explicitly noted as a factor for Grievous stomping her - while Luke >>>> Shaak Ti, Abeloth >>>> magnaguards and the ratio of Abeloth : Luke's power is far greater than the ratio of magnaguards : Shaak Ti)
Luke also fought through armies of Sith, including right before the Beyond Shadows fight.
He had previously gone for a month without food or water while his spirit left his body (so he couldn't be using any sort of active Force sustaining techniques). Granted, this was a moderate amount of time before the Beyond Shadows fight, so unto itself it may not be significant.

Given what I've said above, without you giving me a clear citation of what Luke's injury was and how it was affecting him - even better, affecting his spirit - this again falls into the realm of speculation. Well thought out speculation, but speculation all the same. If I may offer some of my own: Darth Maul as a puling 17 year old who hadn't even been anointed a Sith Lord yet, was put through 2 weeks of the most grueling training he had ever had to endure up to that point (despite a lifetime of the best and most ruthless training a Sith has likely ever received), and without any rest from this "preliminary test", he was then sent to Hypori for over 20 days with nothing but his lightsaber and basic survival supplies. He was left sleepless as he was attacked around the clock by an army of assassin droids, emaciated to the point of losing muscle tissue (which can only result from severe starvation as it means the fat and glycogen stores have become badly depleted), received a leg wound which became infected, leading to him collapsing into hallucination. After his skirmish with Sheev where he drew on the dark side far more deeply than ever before, his tribulation was finally over... and this is how he felt in the following days.

Sidious and Maul returned to Coruscant, where a medical droid tended to Maul’s injuries. Maul had felt drained by his trials on Hypori, but within several days he felt stronger than ever before. Now that he was a Sith Lord, he was empowered by a sense of purpose.

―The Wrath of Darth Maul

Without any major injury cited on your end, I have to assume the main thing bothering Luke from fighting Abeloth was fatigue. Now, considering that 17 year old Maul is, putting it lightly, a mere fraction of the Force user Luke is, I also have to assume that he would recover far more slowly than Luke. And considering the extent of his own injuries, for him to feel stronger than ever before mere days later, I do have to wonder why so much emphasis is being diverted away from Luke and Krayt's actions in the fight itself in place of speculation about Luke's vague physical condition leading up to a foray into a purely spiritual realm that his body is only loosely tethered to?

Lost consciousness several times.
Been punctured and choked by Abeloth to the point of near-death.
Had several serious wounds to the body.
Drawed upon all of his energy to a greater degree than he ever had to burst his cells with energy - twice, including right before the Beyond Shadows fight.

Yes, I wouldn't mind seeing citations just for my own curiosity, although part of me doubts it's going to matter given the above. Although while we are here, I want to ask how you define "choked by Abeloth to the point of near-death" - because you've put a good deal of effort into mitigating Luke's very real brush with death post-Abeloth fight in an attempt to deny that him and Krayt were equally put through the ringer or that even if they were it wouldn't matter... for some reason.


Yes; he was on his way to dying and struggling to move, but the psychological state would factor into that. As soon as Luke got his motivation back, he felt energy rushing to him and then from that point onwards he doesn't struggle to stand, move, ponder, etc. at all (or to a large degree). We don't see any more significant mention of him being near-death (except to the extent that he had long term injuries, but those didn't put him near-death):
Thanks for agreeing on this very basic point. Nobody denied that after Luke lay on the ground for some time, received a pep talk from Mara, lifted himself up from a prone position (which caused his entire form to ache in pain and his head to rush), and then only after a brief chat with Krayt did he stand to his feet (which is when he felt a rush of energy)... but that's hardly the main point, is it? He had ample time to recover from a state that was likely closer to death than mere exhaustion. The core thing I drove home in the prior post, which has largely been glossed over in yours, is that whether we are discussing Luke being near-death or being completely exhausted of his ability to move, let alone fight, these are still ironclad metrics for his Force reserves, essence and thus Force power, and seeing as those attacks which left Luke in this depleted state were shared by Krayt almost identically, all the doubt-casting you are doing on this point just seems more and more evasive and irrelevant with each subsequent post. It's part of why this song and dance is tiring to me, and also why I'd be intrigued to hear someone's viewpoint that isn't one of us: I get the sense that with us being diametrically opposed and the most outspoken on this particular fight, that the other users are content to watch us spar instead of doing their own analysis. But, due to a combination of finding repeating myself boring and not having a lot of free time, I'm much more keen to hear from some of the others. But yeah, suffice to say, my point still stands - there is little doubt in my mind that if Plagueis was put in Krayt's place he would have died.

After being on the ground struggling to even survive (or rather being willing to die), Luke just casually stands up.

You might then argue that Luke without extra motivation would be near-death and then he would be not-near-death only through the motivation, but this doesn't work either because he wasn't just "baseline" in motivation when he was near-death; he actively wanted to join Mara.

Likewise, Krayt clearly had that "motivation" that post-energy rush Luke had too, given his extreme determination to rise to power that would've been present regardless.

The claim that Luke was unable to fight Krayt isn't stated in the text. Luke had just fought the ultimate evil of Star Wars, and has both his physical body to worry about and Ben's safety / the Jedi Order / etc. He can be excused for not immediately charging at a Sith whose origins he has no idea about. Even if he were too injured to feel confident in exerting himself more, being too injured to continue a fight is very different from being near-death.
Uhh, the text states that Luke did not feel comfortable allowing Krayt to return to the galaxy, and that's considering the fact Krayt told him to his face that the Sith were on the rise again. The text also states that "was in no better shape to fight than Luke", so all of the potentially valid concerns you raised about Luke wanting to survive seem to not be mentioned anywhere. Luke has put his life on the line countless times as you well know, and each of those times Ben's safety, the Jedi Order and "etc" were also on the line, yet this has never stopped Luke from putting his own life at risk. The reason the text gives for Luke not choosing to try and kill Krayt is because it is mutually assured destruction - they would prefer to live and fight another day. If this is a point you refuse to acknowledge despite me giving the citation for it repeatedly, and you instead want to keep speculating about points that have never been brought to attention by the text, that's fine by me. I'll continue regurgitating what the text has told us, and you can continue to extrapolate new and wonderful theories from it that seem to diverge from reality violently.

This point of contention about Luke's psychology is pretty critical. If it cannot be demonstrated that Luke was near death involuntarily, then the argument that there is little room for Krayt being much weaker while surviving falls apart. If Luke after the fight is heavily injured but still a pretty long away from involuntarily dying,  then you can no longer say that there isn't room for Krayt to be weaker, since we know nothing about their relative states except that Krayt was also injured and limping (if you shot both Sirak and DE Sidious in the leg with a blaster rifle, they'd probably both limp - it doesn't tell you anything).
What about the text makes you think Luke was "a pretty long away from involuntarily dying"? Again, the text describes at length about the bloodcurdling death scream he let out and how even after being held up by Mara and having time to recover he barely had the energy to move a finger without excruciating pain. If he could have been much closer to death in a way that was so significant that there could be a Plagueis - FotJ Luke sized gap between himself and Krayt, then the text has done an unbelievably poor job of pointing that out to us. On the other hand, Occam's Razor dictates that if Luke, Mara and Jaina are all telling us that Luke very nearly died, then chances are that he very nearly died, and there isn't this invisible layer of "even more nearly dead bro" Luke hadn't yet been pushed through. This is less a debate about Star Wars than it is basic reading comprehension.

If Abeloth is far, far stronger than Luke as you say, why wouldn't wrestling said godlike being as she's trying to stab and strangle you for a timeless amount of time have a significant effect?
Because the two main attacks which the text noted to have been responsible for Luke losing a significant amount of essence, that being his life force, was the first Lightning blast he and Krayt mutually received, and the final internal-tearing tentacle kamikaze attack they mutually received. And again, because I do have a feeling you will bring it up, I am not drawing attention to these injuries simply because they "went through Luke and Krayt" - summarising my arguments as being about attacks that "went through them" is a gross oversimplification at best and a blatant attempt at diversion at worst. No, the reason these attacks were significant is purely because they were the attacks which resulted in Luke's essence pouring out of his spirit form. We saw plenty of attacks "go through" each party without essence pouring out, but it was only the few most significant attacks (Abeloth's lightning blast, her tentacle attack and Krayt's impalement of Abeloth before ripping his arm back out of her, causing a "geyser" of her essence to burst forth) which caused significant damage. There is a distinction to be made between "damage" and "fatigue", in the sense that losing blood would be damage and the build up of lactic acid would be fatigue, and while the two obviously overlap in Beyond Shadows (as there is an amount of damage caused just by the smashing together of essences), there is also obviously a massive difference between negligible amounts of essence that are lost over the course of the fight, and the select few times essence has poured out of their bodies that the text has brought very obvious attention to. Again, basic reading comprehension - notice that every mitigating point you want to bring up for Luke (obviously ignoring any one could mention for Krayt in order to make the comparison as lopsided as possible) is rarely given any importance by the text but is purely the result of your own speculation.

Have you noticed that the text itself gives us nothing but comparisons between Luke and Krayt, e.g the lightning "blasted straight through" Krayt then to Luke, Krayt was "suffering as much damage as Luke from the attack", that Luke and Krayt both had to "pull harder" to Abeloth restrained, that they both fell after the same tentacle attack, both clutching their essence which was dripping from their chests, both with gaping wounds in the same place from the same attacks, and both in no better condition than the other once the fight was over and both were back on their feet? In a text that appears to be doing everything it can to compare Luke and Krayt, all you seem to be able to glean from it are differences? There's only so much hiding behind phrases such as "but how can we quantify that" and "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" before it becomes obvious that you're just being evasive and deliberately taking a lopsided reading of the text. Stranger still is your miraculous ability to take conclusions from the text, that were never given any attention by the text itself, and somehow in the totes extremely unquantifiable fight that didn't have a clear enough conclusion or intent to it, that are nevertheless extremely quantifiable, such as Luke's vague injuries and the way they vaguely relate to his spirit form, or the extremely vague allusions to a nexus you haven't even proven had an effect or indeed explained how it would have an effect.

The text says that Krayt and Luke were suffering the same amount from the drain, so that would cancel out. Luke then had the additional burden of wrestling Abeloth. I don't know why wrestling with someone who would make DE Sidious beg for mercy shouldn't be a "significant" factor.

If you're saying that then Krayt has the additional factor of exerting himself with the Force drain (separately from the damage of the drain going to him), then I mean, sure, but I doubt that cancels out. I think that if Dooku would rather do melee with Sidious for 30 seconds or stand back and just drain him while he's preoccupied for 30 seconds, the former would be a lot more alarming to him while the latter would be taxing but hardly as bad.
Your analogy is a false equivalency for a number of reasons, reasons I'm unsure why I would need to explain to anyone who had given the fight a cursory overview.

1. Krayt was in melee range of Abeloth the entire time, his arm was embedded inside her. He had to expend energy to keep it there and to keep himself rooted against Abeloth's blast. Moreover, the text told us that while Abeloth was struggling to break free she was trying to take swipes at either Luke or Krayt, as the three of them had become something of a mass of energy.

2. As I noted already, and as you chose to ignore, Drain is an extremely taxing ability at the best of times - the idea behind drain is that the energy being used to drain the target is replenished with the targets own life force. On this principle, we have observed several times that drain is extremely taxing and also that if it goes wrongly, the user is left extremely weakened. Bane using a small death field was pushed to extreme levels of energy output and his only salvation was the non-Force users he was draining to death, sustaining the death field. When Nihilus' drain on the Exile failed he was left so weakened he lost to her and could not even kill her non-Force sensitive teammates, despite the fact, as Ant has enthusiastically shown us many times, in leaked extra content Nihilus can release a passive way of energy sufficient to disintegrate about a dozen non Force users with ease. Vitiate, attempting one of his rituals, was left so horrendously weakened afterwards that even with plenty of time to recover, and a dark side nexus backing him, he lost in single combat to the Act 3 HoT, despite the latter fighting an army and expending energy saving others before this fight. This phenomena of one being severely weakened is less a special property of Force Drain and more a simple principle of energy conversion: that energy which is expended needs to be replaced. Krayt was not receiving anything in return from Draining Abeloth. He was instead being damaged by her essence while maintaining the drain. It is idle speculation on your end to claim that there is a significant difference between what Krayt and Luke were doing. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Krayt's actions made such a large difference to the fight that Abeloth can go from being so powerful she can damn near choke Luke to death at will, or stomp him physically/break free of him within seconds, to actually being restrained and mortally wounded. Your estimate of an 80/20 split between Luke and Krayt's contributions, then, is pretty laughable, and not for a second do I believe that if the shoe was on the other foot you would not be wanking the ever-living fuck out of how Luke drained Abeloth without even replenishing his own power in the process, meanwhile all Krayt did was keep Abeloth still, which btw, was only possible because Luke was the one draining Abeloth at great cost to himself. Except, unlike you, I actually pay credence to what the text itself has told us and am more interested in a true reading of it than a lopsided one.

Sure. But if they need a 100 and Luke contributes 80 while Krayt contributes 20, that doesn't mean they're close to each other.
Occam's Razor dictates that the split was closer to 50/50 than 80/20, but it's important to recognize that your estimate here is baseless speculation. Moreover, I already addressed this idea: given that Abeloth was unable to single Krayt out at all, and his presence alone caused her to "stand off defensively" and "counterattack" with Force Lightning in order to weaken Luke and Krayt, despite her being at full strength at the start of the fight, it seems extremely unlikely that Krayt is, by your estimate, a quarter the strength of Luke. Because indeed, seeing as the effort pushed Krayt and Luke to their limits, if Luke did contribute 80% of the effort, then the last 20% would have been contributed by the skin of Krayt's teeth, meaning that he indeed is a quarter the strength of Luke. That would also make him much weaker than Darish Vol, who even with "much" the strength of Luke is basically fodder for an Abeloth who is not wasting time trying to kill him. So, were Krayt to be that pitifully weak compared to Darish Vol, let alone Luke, and let alone Abeloth herself, how is it that he had a snowballs chance in hell of causing her to fight so standoffishly rather than be dispatched like the fodder he should be?

Could it be that, perhaps, the fight was a joint effort between two people in the same ballpark of power, perhaps allowing for one to be marginally more powerful than the other, an effort they got through by the skin of their teeth? Could it be that the herculean gap you're trying to create between Luke and Krayt by drawing on every means of speculation, extra-textual argumentation and false equivalency, that is not mentioned anywhere in the fight itself, only exists inside your head?

In a 2 v 1, if the duo are somewhat close to each other and one of the duo stands a strong chance of solo'ing, the 2 v 1 is going to end up a stomp unless if the lone one can take out one of the others or otherwise pull an advantage. If Luke + someone who is like somewhat relative to Luke can just barely beat Abeloth, then Luke alone should've been absolutely destroyed by Abeloth in every way, instead of actually doing serious damage to her multiple times.
...yeah, except Luke doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of soloing Abeloth based on all the available evidence. That's evident from how easily she broke free of him at the start and quite simply from the fight itself, and their past encounters. Luke's successes against Abeloth, impressive as they are, are not as much to do with him having such comparable power he could actually kill her solo, but because he is far, far more skilled than her, and is able to seize a few opportunities to attack her. Again, to reiterate for about the third or fourth time, Abeloth's power is so broad that even several full-effort, full-power, clean as you want, attacks from Luke or Darish Vol, either on her physical body, or her psyche (an even more devastating type of attack than a lightsaber wound) only reduces her power by a fraction of the whole. On the other hand, if you took the same potency of attack - a full powered attack from FotJ Luke - and unleashed it on say, Luke himself, or DE Sidious, without them having the chance to erect a defense, chances are they would die. So to combine that very basic, well stated-by-the-text (as usual) point with the fact Abeloth has repeatedly shown she can dominate Luke in single combat, even nearly Force choking him to death (something Sidious can't even do to Maul or Dooku without an opening), and also the "dozen times as powerful as Luke" quote (which compared to Vol's "much the power of Luke" speaks wonders of the disparity), it again, is extremely obvious that if Krayt was only a quarter as powerful as Luke, his presence would have done the square root of jack shit to influence the outcome of the fight. Instead of adding 25% to an otherwise hopeless situation, he added what is likely something from 90% or more to Luke's chances. I say more because Luke and Krayt are obviously more than the sum of their parts as a team, and together were able to kill a being who is actually exponentially more powerful than them both combined.

I think this could be an interesting way to frame it:

If TPM Sidious were there instead of Krayt, at what point would he have failed?

And what about RotS? RotJ? DE? Is it just eyeballing?

If by "interesting" you mean "potentially a good way to evade dealing with the substance of ILS' argument", then it certainly is. For my money, Krayt's feat here kicks the shit out of anything TPM Sheev or Plagueis have done just on the basis of raw power alone, and since that's usually how we evaluate who wins fights, rather than going into extremely tedious and pointless tangents rife with speculation and nitpicking because we just can't totes be sure what the feat means because there's totes so many confounding variables so let's go with the lopsided interpretation I like best, I reckon it's as simple as saying that Krayt is closer in power to FotJ Luke than Plagueis, and thus he would obviously kick his ass in a fight.

This seems like a good time to point out something you not only know full well, but have talked about recently: any argument can have holes poked in it. That goes for everyone, every character, every methodology. We are all using imperfect tools in our pursuit for truth. The trouble is, your handling of the Apoc fight has been so blatantly dishonest, evasive, speculative and dismissive - especially in regards to the topic of metaphysics, which due to being potentially complicated would require honest inquiry to make sense of - means that to the casual observer who doesn't want to be an expert in every micro detail of Beyond Shadows mechanics and the events surrounding the fight, it is extremely easy for someone of your ability to muddy the waters. In other words, it is far easier to throw a thousand shitty, poorly thought out nitpicks (I wouldn't even call them counter arguments because that would imply evidence has been raised or salient points made) than to construct and maintain a single argument against said nitpicks - at least, it is far easier if your goal is to muddy the waters enough to cast a shroud of doubt over the casual observer. For my own satisfaction, my interpretation of the Apoc fight has been strengthened to new heights by your incessant attempts to lowball Krayt's contribution and muddy the waters, so regardless of how our debates are perceived, there's certainly going to be a part of both us which knows who had the stronger arguments. And that's a hell of a lot more satisfying than getting the last word in.

Luke clearly noted the Font and Pool's power as nexuses while he was Beyond Shadows:
BTW, sith spirits clearly anchor themselves to nexuses. That could be different, but again, unless you provide an explicit reason otherwise the evidence favors nexuses applying.
Sorry, but the burden of evidence is still on you. Sith Spirits anchor themselves to physical locations or objects abundant in living Force energy, because they no longer have a body to tether themselves to. Sometimes, like in Krayt's own case, his spirit embedded itself in his own corpse to persist. Beyond Shadows, in quite opposite fashion, relates to the spirit de-tethering itself from the physical universe, which would include what we call a "Force nexus", maintaining only the loosest connection to their physical bodies. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that the concept of a physical Force nexus strong in living Force energy giving more energy for a physical being to channel through their physical midichlorians would apply to spiritual beings in a purely metaphysical environment where all of the usual concepts related to a Force nexus are completely irrelevant. Your argument, then, can be summed up as well, it seems kinda similar to me, and since I like it, I guess it's true, huh! And seeing as you've tried for over a year now to push this idea (another idea the text fails miserably at drawing any special attention to), I'm not expecting you to come up with any better evidence for it any time soon.

But where do you place Krayt? That's not a rhetorical question - how do you justify placing him below DE Sidious or RotJ Sidious or wherever? Why is Plagueis the cutoff?
While you're obviously just trying to shift the burden of proof to me here, I'll go ahead and answer anyway. From what I gather, Luke was still much, much less powerful than Sidious in DE but was simply a better duelist, which is why Sheev casually ate thousands of Luke's allies with a Force storm while he stood there powerless to stop him conventionally - Luke needed to go into this uber state and block Sidious from his own power. Given the magnitude of Sheev's accomplishments in a holistic sense, I don't think Krayt ever became quite as powerful as him, nor am I sure where exactly Luke surpassed Sidious, or if he did, or in what sense he did - the Force Storm is easily the most extreme and destructive power we have ever seen. However, I do think it's clear that while Krayt can never reach Luke or Sidious' upper limits of power, there is a solid enough case that he would give either a serious challenge and wouldn't be stomped in a fight. I think given the hilarious difference between FotJ Luke or DE Sheev and RotS Sidious, let alone Plagueis, that Krayt being below them is obviously ridiculous. That becomes less and less ironclad the higher up we go on the Sheev scale, which is why I tentatively place Krayt anywhere between TFU-RotJ Sheev.

But this thread is about FotJ Krayt?
Am I to assume you were just trolling here, then, when you claimed you weren't sure if Reborn Krayt could even defeat BoTPM Sidious - you being one of the proponents that the "post-boost" Sidious is much stronger than "pre-boost" Sidious? Or can we abandon all pretense and go back to our original discussion - which is you doing everything in your power to lower Krayt as low as you can, and me pointing out how silly your attempts have been?

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2429-krayt-runs-the-sidious-gauntlet#47104

This is (actually) a nitpick but we don't see the Abeloth vs. Vol fight, so we don't really know what happened except that Vol lost (and didn't even know it was Abeloth, somehow despite it being so obvious lol).
Allow me to put your mind at ease, then. As noted already, Vol took a clean shot at Abeloth's mind with the equivalent of a psychic chainsaw, pouring every ounce of his strength into the attack, and Abeloth responded by shunting him out of their shared mindscape and getting so angry she melted a city. Vol's main claim to fame in that instance was merely holding on as Abeloth tried to blast him off of her.  So to be clear, you've done nothing to address my points in this post and the last about how the only way to justify Luke and Krayt killing Abeloth while there is such a gargantuan power difference between Luke and those of his (rough) ilk (Vol), is that Krayt himself is at least in Luke's own ballpark of power - not the "nowhere near" or "below pre boost Sidious LoLz" you seem to be punting.

I think that your general frustration with anti-Krayt arguments is that they are too specific and miss the "big picture", hence the repeated complaint that they are "splitting hairs". But a point isn't splitting hairs if the implications are large - if the entire premise that Luke was near death and therefore Krayt couldn't have been much weaker is wrong and Luke's state was mostly psychological, that is not a "nitpick" - it literally sends an entire scaling line tumbling down. You can argue that the claim is wrong, but it is absolutely not a nitpick because it's such a major implication if it is true.

If you are trying to say that we should stop being hyper-literal and analyzing every single possible detail, then that has to work both ways (and we get into a different form of analysis from the in-universe scaling we typically do). I see a lot of Krayt cases that involve micro-analysis too, like the size of the holes that appear in their essences and in what order one character attacked Abeloth or was attacked by her at the end.
Notice that I haven't actually voiced any of these frustrations during this debate or, at least, not in any relation to the core arguments I've made. I certainly could wax at length about how you're obviously ignoring holistic factors such as authorial intent, core, well established themes about the narrative of Star Wars, and other basic concepts like Occam's Razor, and I could point out why it's obvious to anyone with eyes the reason you are doing this, but I've chosen not to. You see, for me to bring up things like authorial intent (the guy who wrote the book we're discussing has expressed an interest in writing a fight between Krayt and Luke proper, and seems to think they are so close that environmental circumstances and fighting styles would play a significant role, going as far as to say they have similar power levels, but I digress), that implies that those points would be met with a level of reciprocation. Indeed, it would require a level of mutual good faith between us. I could even talk about how over the years we have heard from no shortage of people phrases like "Apocalypse is inconsistent with Legacy, Krayt never shows Luke-level power again, so the authors clearly had no communication with each other" (even though in reality we have it on good authority that Ostrander and Denning were both privy to each other's work well in advance of publication, and also that Apocalypse was made after Legacy: War, meaning the Krayt we saw in Legacy was the one which informed Denning's portrayal of Krayt in Apocalypse), or "If Krayt had been some random Sith in Apocalypse then we would all assume he is Luke level", and so on. But while I would be making the mistake of doing that, appealing to your better nature (providing one exists), you would be doing what you are doing right now - using every tool in your arsenal to throw a thousand pieces of shit at the wall of my argument until at least one sticks, satisfying your goal of lowballing Krayt into oblivion rather than taking an honest reading of the fight. So that's why I've remained purely practical in my discussion of the text and ignored all of the other potentially valuable, important or indeed compelling points I could have brought up - because I know you are completely unwilling to reciprocate. Even though you have used such holistic or authorial-intent based arguments in the past when it suited Luke.

I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to ignore your "bulleted summary", because however impressively formatted it is, it's still a regurgitation of the same bullshit that has been debunked a hundred times already - impressively formatted, aesthetically pleasing, easily digested for the casual observer bullshit - but bullshit nonetheless.
The Ellimist
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 12th 2020, 3:44 pm
I will make a response, but I honestly find it kind of unfair that half of your post is complaining about me speculating and not citing evidence when literally all of the sources that I included in my post weren't acknowledged...? Like, there were several specific sources provided, with analysis on how that can be used to quantify various factors around the fight?
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 12th 2020, 3:53 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:I will make a response, but I honestly find it kind of unfair that half of your post is complaining about me speculating and not citing evidence when literally all of the sources that I included in my post weren't acknowledged...? Like, there were several specific sources provided, with analysis on how that can be used to quantify various factors around the fight?
You made four primary claims regarding: 1. Luke's existing injuries (which you backed up, but as you can see I don't buy your conclusion), 2. Luke doing 80% of the work (backed by absolutely nothing), 3. The nexus (backed by absolutely nothing other than a citation that the nexus exists...) and 4. a tangential point about Luke's psychological state that didn't address the substance of my post. So no, I don't find it unfair to point out the lack of evidence brought forth when you were in such a hurry to raise these points and hope I would blindly accept them, as seen below:

Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Lol10

Also, "half" of my post is not complaining. Each of your major points of contention were addressed in full. That I didn't respond to every single source you cited when a lot of them weren't terribly relevant to Beyond Shadows (such as Luke being tired in TUF) does not mean I was avoiding those sources - you'll notice that for your most important points (Luke's fatigue, the nexus and the pre existing injuries) you cited very little in the way of proving that these actually had an impact on the fight. There's a big difference between making a citation and making a relevant one.
Shioz
Shioz

Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 12th 2020, 11:53 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:Sure. But if they need a 100 and Luke contributes 80 while Krayt contributes 20, that doesn't mean they're close to each other.
I once jokingly argued that Vader > Galen, because an apprentice was needed to defeat the Emperor. Sidious = 100, Vader = 80, so Galen should be 20. But at that moment I was joking. Do you seriously think that this kind of gap can be estimated in numbers or even percentages? These are completely arbitrary numbers based on literally nothing.
@The Ellimist wrote:I see a lot of Krayt cases that involve micro-analysis too, like the size of the holes that appear in their essences and in what order one character attacked Abeloth or was attacked by her at the end.
How did your discussion of comparing the power of Krayt and Luke get to comparing the size of their holes? Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt 4183286560
ILS
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 13th 2020, 1:37 am
Jokes aside, on that last point Shioz mentioned: never once have I made a big deal out of the fact that Krayt was the first/longest recipient of the two attacks by Abeloth that by far caused the most damage to himself and Luke. I explicitly mentioned it in passing to point out that I can do exactly what Elm is doing, which is making mountains out of mole hills to make one character look more impressive than they are. And I could have done far more than that. And again, saying my case rests upon "the size of the holes" is a gross oversimplification. The point has been made repeatedly now, like about 6 times in recent history, that the key factor is how much essence is lost as a result of the wound. Another indicator is the fact there is a persistent, gaping wound after, but seeing as this is something Luke and Krayt both had in common coming out of the fight I would have hardly thought it would be a good idea to contest or even mention if your goal is to highlight as many differences between Luke and Krayt as possible?
Shioz
Shioz

Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 13th 2020, 1:46 am
I don’t have much time to join your discussion, but I think you should pay more attention to the pronounced author’s intention and plot points (balance, union of the Jedi and Sith, etc.). It is rather strange to ignore these details and the overall picture of the battle, trying to look for as many differences as possible, even if in the context no attention is paid to them (this mainly refers to Elm).
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

on February 13th 2020, 1:56 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
I'd be very interested in doing more of that across the board, but as you can see, the current debating climate is so rife with politics and agenda that the first fool through the door who tries to mention such things will inevitably take it in the teeth. Even though those factors actually carry more weight than our interpretations of the story - because it's hard to argue our interpretation of the story is closer to its original intent than the writer themselves - and would give us a clearer idea of how the characters are meant to relate to one another narratively, there is the issue that no matter how insightful your analysis of the narrative is, there will always be one asshat standing ready to bang his sword named "Unquantifiable!" off of his equally aptly named shield "Subjective!"

But sure. Looking at the narrative themes of Star Wars, the intent of the writers and the basic structure of the fight itself, it's obvious that Krayt is meant to be the primo DLOTS after Sidious, far more significant than Vol or Caedus, eclipsing both in every measure of success, and also someone who poses a viable threat to Luke. This was foreshadowed across several novels, explicitly brought to light in Apocalypse, manifested by Krayt taking over the galaxy in Legacy and reiterated in sourcebooks.
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Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt Empty Re: Revan Reborn vs FOTJ Darth Krayt

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